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Outdoor Cremations
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Alasdair X
Apr 29, 2021, 2:48:27 PM4/29/21
to
On the TV at the moment, there are lots of pictures of dead bodies being cremated outdoors using wood as a fuel. How efficient is that method of cremation and is it allowed in any other country apart from India?
GB
Apr 29, 2021, 3:09:25 PM4/29/21
to
On 29/04/2021 19:48, Alasdair X wrote:
> On the TV at the moment, there are lots of pictures of dead bodies being cremated outdoors using wood as a fuel. How efficient is that method of cremation and is it allowed in any other country apart from India?
>
The UK, apparently.
> On the TV at the moment, there are lots of pictures of dead bodies being cremated outdoors using wood as a fuel. How efficient is that method of cremation and is it allowed in any other country apart from India?
>
Mr G points me to this:
https://nafd.org.uk/2018/03/09/uk-ready-open-funeral-pyres
Is it efficient to burn coal to make electricity and then use that to
burn bodies? Thermodynamics says no.
The Todal
Apr 29, 2021, 3:16:48 PM4/29/21
to
On 29/04/2021 19:48, Alasdair X wrote:
> On the TV at the moment, there are lots of pictures of dead bodies being cremated outdoors using wood as a fuel. How efficient is that method of cremation and is it allowed in any other country apart from India?
>
What do you mean by "efficient"? I've heard that in India some people
>
are now forced to cremate bodies in their gardens because there are no
other facilities.
Efficient in the sense of reducing the body to ash? Would it need to be
a speedy process?
Adolf Hitler and Eva Braun were cremated in a bomb crater near the Reich
Chancellery, and petrol was used to accelerate the fire. I don't know
how easy it would be to cremate a body without some form of accelerant
but I suppose in India they are accustomed to funeral pyres.
Alan
Apr 29, 2021, 3:17:03 PM4/29/21
to
a small bonfire. There is, usually, nothing left apart from ashes. Only
occasionally is a small part of bone left.
Alasdair X
Apr 29, 2021, 3:38:53 PM4/29/21
to
The Todal
Apr 29, 2021, 3:42:11 PM4/29/21
to
be legal, but maybe there are other considerations.
newshound
Apr 29, 2021, 4:14:08 PM4/29/21
to
Mark Goodge
Apr 29, 2021, 4:41:51 PM4/29/21
to
cremate someone with a heat pump :-)
Mark
JNugent
Apr 30, 2021, 2:01:24 AM4/30/21
to
immediate area dared light a bonfire. That their neighbours jointly had
several acres of vegetation to trim and keep trimmed didn't seem to
occur to them.
Scion
Apr 30, 2021, 4:59:56 AM4/30/21
to
jon
Apr 30, 2021, 5:31:30 AM4/30/21
to
AJH
Apr 30, 2021, 6:17:01 AM4/30/21
to
On 29/04/2021 20:57, newshound wrote:
> On 29/04/2021 20:09, GB wrote:
>> On 29/04/2021 19:48, Alasdair X wrote:
>>> On the TV at the moment, there are lots of pictures of dead bodies
>>> being cremated outdoors using wood as a fuel. How efficient is that
>>> method of cremation and is it allowed in any other country apart from
>>> India?
>>>
>>
>> The UK, apparently.
>>
>>
>> Mr G points me to this:
>>
>> https://nafd.org.uk/2018/03/09/uk-ready-open-funeral-pyres
Yes that article covers most of it, It's just the matter of deciding
> On 29/04/2021 20:09, GB wrote:
>> On 29/04/2021 19:48, Alasdair X wrote:
>>> On the TV at the moment, there are lots of pictures of dead bodies
>>> being cremated outdoors using wood as a fuel. How efficient is that
>>> method of cremation and is it allowed in any other country apart from
>>> India?
>>>
>>
>> The UK, apparently.
>>
>>
>> Mr G points me to this:
>>
>> https://nafd.org.uk/2018/03/09/uk-ready-open-funeral-pyres
on a "building" that is acceptable to all parties.
Then there is the small matter of pollutants but there already exists a
trading scheme whereby crematoria without scrubbers to trap mercury can
buy some exemptions from those that exceed the requirement.
>
> AFAIK all UK crematoria use natural gas. (Perhaps LPG in remote locations?)
then dries the next ready to burn as once the water (70%??) is driven
off most of the rest is combustible. It's then just a matter of all
effluent reaching about 1200C?? for 2?? seconds.
Jeff Layman
Apr 30, 2021, 6:31:34 AM4/30/21
to
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promession>
Now if only someone could get it to work...
--
Jeff
The Todal
Apr 30, 2021, 6:32:03 AM4/30/21
to
complain that the smoke was spoiling his washing, hanging on the line.
He wanted me to wait till it was raining before lighting a bonfire -
obviously this would have made it harder to light and even smokier.
He then complained to the council. They rang to tell me that although a
bonfire is not necessarily illegal, it would be illegal if it was judged
to be a nuisance. They seemed unable to define what a nuisance was but
said that if I wanted to be sure of not being prosecuted and if I wanted
to avoid a visit from the environmental health department it would be
best to stop lighting bonfires.
I didn't want to be un-neighbourly so I stopped using bonfires, bought a
good garden shredder which was quite expensive, and now have my garden
waste collected by the council.
Max Demian
Apr 30, 2021, 7:14:20 AM4/30/21
to
On 29/04/2021 20:57, newshound wrote:
cremate bodies one after another, not as soon as the coffin goes through
the curtain, which is for theatrical effect - "pseudo-committal".)
--
Max Demian
Max Demian
Apr 30, 2021, 7:19:24 AM4/30/21
to
On 30/04/2021 11:30, The Todal wrote:
so all that was visible was a wisp of smoke coming out of the top. I
think it burnt for days, and yielded ash to fertilise the garden.
--
Max Demian
> On 29/04/2021 22:53, JNugent wrote:
>> Some previous neighbours we had used to complain if anyone in the
>> immediate area dared light a bonfire. That their neighbours jointly
>> had several acres of vegetation to trim and keep trimmed didn't seem
>> to occur to them.
> I used to have bonfires of branches and twigs. A neighbour came round to
> complain that the smoke was spoiling his washing, hanging on the line.
> He wanted me to wait till it was raining before lighting a bonfire -
> obviously this would have made it harder to light and even smokier.
>
> He then complained to the council. They rang to tell me that although a
> bonfire is not necessarily illegal, it would be illegal if it was judged
> to be a nuisance. They seemed unable to define what a nuisance was but
> said that if I wanted to be sure of not being prosecuted and if I wanted
> to avoid a visit from the environmental health department it would be
> best to stop lighting bonfires.
>
> I didn't want to be un-neighbourly so I stopped using bonfires, bought a
> good garden shredder which was quite expensive, and now have my garden
> waste collected by the council.
My father had a way of banking up a bonfire and feeding it damp material
>> Some previous neighbours we had used to complain if anyone in the
>> immediate area dared light a bonfire. That their neighbours jointly
>> had several acres of vegetation to trim and keep trimmed didn't seem
>> to occur to them.
> I used to have bonfires of branches and twigs. A neighbour came round to
> complain that the smoke was spoiling his washing, hanging on the line.
> He wanted me to wait till it was raining before lighting a bonfire -
> obviously this would have made it harder to light and even smokier.
>
> He then complained to the council. They rang to tell me that although a
> bonfire is not necessarily illegal, it would be illegal if it was judged
> to be a nuisance. They seemed unable to define what a nuisance was but
> said that if I wanted to be sure of not being prosecuted and if I wanted
> to avoid a visit from the environmental health department it would be
> best to stop lighting bonfires.
>
> I didn't want to be un-neighbourly so I stopped using bonfires, bought a
> good garden shredder which was quite expensive, and now have my garden
> waste collected by the council.
so all that was visible was a wisp of smoke coming out of the top. I
think it burnt for days, and yielded ash to fertilise the garden.
--
Max Demian
Mark Goodge
Apr 30, 2021, 8:26:35 AM4/30/21
to
On Fri, 30 Apr 2021 11:54:54 +0100, Max Demian <max_d...@bigfoot.com>
wrote:
Once started the furnace runs continuously, but unless they are very
busy and doing a large number of committals in a short space of time
they generally do the cremation immediately following the committal.
The actual cremation itself takes about 75 to 90 minutes, depending on
the size of the body, so if the crematorium is fully booked for that day
then a queue of committed bodies will form as a typical service is
around 40 to 60 minutes. In that case, the furnace won't finish running
until some time after the last committal. But most of the time, there's
enough slack in the schedule to allow each cremation to immediately
follow the committal.
The furnace doesn't run at a constant temperature; it's first pre-heated
before any cremations are done, then after a coffin is inserted it goes
through a cycle of increasing temperatures up to the main operating
temperature, and then allowed to cool back to pre-heat levels once the
cremation is complete and the ashes have been removed. It will be
maintained at the pre-heat level while unoccupied all day, even if
cremations don't immediately follow each other.
These days, it's all computerised - the weight and dimensions of the
deceased are typed into the system and the total burn time calculated
accordingly. The only thing the staff have to do is press "start" -
everything else follows automatically. But it still has to be observed
throughout, just in case something happens that hasn't been allowed for
in the calculations (such as people smuggling forbidden items into the
coffin of the deceased, which can affect the cremation time), so if
necessary the staff can adjust the temperature, the airflow and the time
manually to respond to these.
Some religions insist, or at least prefer, that the actual cremation
itself is witnessed, and it's not unusual to get such a request even
from non-religious families. So most crematoria have a facility for
allowing a small number of witnesses (usually just close family) to go
backstage, so to speak, and observe the coffin being placed into the
furnace and the gas burners started. The door to the furnace is not
closed until those present can observe the coffin starting to burn.
(All of the above learned on an incredibly interesting VIP visit to the
official opening of a new crematorum near where I live, in the course of
which we were given a full behind-the-scenes tour and a detailed
explanation of how it all works).
Mark
wrote:
busy and doing a large number of committals in a short space of time
they generally do the cremation immediately following the committal.
The actual cremation itself takes about 75 to 90 minutes, depending on
the size of the body, so if the crematorium is fully booked for that day
then a queue of committed bodies will form as a typical service is
around 40 to 60 minutes. In that case, the furnace won't finish running
until some time after the last committal. But most of the time, there's
enough slack in the schedule to allow each cremation to immediately
follow the committal.
The furnace doesn't run at a constant temperature; it's first pre-heated
before any cremations are done, then after a coffin is inserted it goes
through a cycle of increasing temperatures up to the main operating
temperature, and then allowed to cool back to pre-heat levels once the
cremation is complete and the ashes have been removed. It will be
maintained at the pre-heat level while unoccupied all day, even if
cremations don't immediately follow each other.
These days, it's all computerised - the weight and dimensions of the
deceased are typed into the system and the total burn time calculated
accordingly. The only thing the staff have to do is press "start" -
everything else follows automatically. But it still has to be observed
throughout, just in case something happens that hasn't been allowed for
in the calculations (such as people smuggling forbidden items into the
coffin of the deceased, which can affect the cremation time), so if
necessary the staff can adjust the temperature, the airflow and the time
manually to respond to these.
Some religions insist, or at least prefer, that the actual cremation
itself is witnessed, and it's not unusual to get such a request even
from non-religious families. So most crematoria have a facility for
allowing a small number of witnesses (usually just close family) to go
backstage, so to speak, and observe the coffin being placed into the
furnace and the gas burners started. The door to the furnace is not
closed until those present can observe the coffin starting to burn.
(All of the above learned on an incredibly interesting VIP visit to the
official opening of a new crematorum near where I live, in the course of
which we were given a full behind-the-scenes tour and a detailed
explanation of how it all works).
Mark
Reentrant
Apr 30, 2021, 8:32:25 AM4/30/21
to
Do crematoria use "condensing boiler" technology? That would certainly
help a bit.
--
Reentrant
Adam Funk
Apr 30, 2021, 9:45:16 AM4/30/21
to
On 2021-04-30, Mark Goodge wrote:
...
procedures generally didn't allow (or at least favour) cremation.
> and it's not unusual to get such a request even
> from non-religious families. So most crematoria have a facility for
> allowing a small number of witnesses (usually just close family) to go
> backstage, so to speak, and observe the coffin being placed into the
> furnace and the gas burners started. The door to the furnace is not
> closed until those present can observe the coffin starting to burn.
>
> (All of the above learned on an incredibly interesting VIP visit to the
> official opening of a new crematorum near where I live, in the course of
> which we were given a full behind-the-scenes tour and a detailed
> explanation of how it all works).
I have to admit, that does sound interesting. I've only seen a couple
of steelworks (two different kinds, though).
...
> Some religions insist, or at least prefer, that the actual cremation
> itself is witnessed,
I didn't know that --- I thought religions with rules about funeral
> itself is witnessed,
procedures generally didn't allow (or at least favour) cremation.
> and it's not unusual to get such a request even
> from non-religious families. So most crematoria have a facility for
> allowing a small number of witnesses (usually just close family) to go
> backstage, so to speak, and observe the coffin being placed into the
> furnace and the gas burners started. The door to the furnace is not
> closed until those present can observe the coffin starting to burn.
>
> (All of the above learned on an incredibly interesting VIP visit to the
> official opening of a new crematorum near where I live, in the course of
> which we were given a full behind-the-scenes tour and a detailed
> explanation of how it all works).
of steelworks (two different kinds, though).
Mark Goodge
Apr 30, 2021, 10:44:18 AM4/30/21
to
On Fri, 30 Apr 2021 14:42:12 +0100, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com>
wrote:
>On 2021-04-30, Mark Goodge wrote:
>...
>> Some religions insist, or at least prefer, that the actual cremation
>> itself is witnessed,
>
>I didn't know that --- I thought religions with rules about funeral
>procedures generally didn't allow (or at least favour) cremation.
I believe that Hindus and Sikhs are two that do, and of course they
generally use an open-air pyre in countries where they are the dominant
religions. See, for example, this website:
https://funeralcostshelp.co.uk/types/hindu-funerals/
According to Hindu tradition, the eldest son in the family must light
the funeral pyre. As open funeral pyres are illegal in the UK, the
modern equivalent is for him to press the button that starts the
flames.
The deceased's close family, who must witness the cremation, will pray
as the eldest son circles the body, either prior to putting it in the
incinerator or circling the incinerator itself.
And also here:
https://beyondthedash.com/blog/funeral-planning/what-is-a-witness-cremation/7435
Witness cremation appeals to certain mourners for a range of reasons.
Here are some of the most common reasons a family will opt for this
service when a loved one has passed away:
1. RELIGIOUS REASONS
Some religions prefer cremation to burial, such as in the Hindu and
Buddhist faiths. Often, it is expected that the loved ones of the
deceased remain with the body until it is ready for its final
disposition. In some families, this philosophy includes accompanying
the body of the deceased to the crematory and participating in the
incineration process.
>> (All of the above learned on an incredibly interesting VIP visit to the
>> official opening of a new crematorum near where I live, in the course of
>> which we were given a full behind-the-scenes tour and a detailed
>> explanation of how it all works).
>
>I have to admit, that does sound interesting. I've only seen a couple
>of steelworks (two different kinds, though).
One of the advantages of being a councillor, and even better being a
mayor, is that you get invited to all sorts of interesting places and
things that you would otherwise never even think about visiting.
That was how I learned about witnessed cremations. Someone on the tour
remarked on how spacious and well-presented the area immediately around
the furnace was, with the implication that it didn't need to be as it
was an out-of-sight functional aspect of the facility. To which our tour
guide (who was, IIRC, the crematorium manager) responded by explaining
that, although functional and not in any way decorative, it was a
section that is open to the public on request and therefore has to be
appropriately laid out. And then someone else asked why people would
ever want to be there when the body was cremated, and she went on to
explain about witnessed cremations and how they were typically required
at some religious funerals.
Mark
wrote:
>On 2021-04-30, Mark Goodge wrote:
>...
>> Some religions insist, or at least prefer, that the actual cremation
>> itself is witnessed,
>
>I didn't know that --- I thought religions with rules about funeral
>procedures generally didn't allow (or at least favour) cremation.
generally use an open-air pyre in countries where they are the dominant
religions. See, for example, this website:
https://funeralcostshelp.co.uk/types/hindu-funerals/
According to Hindu tradition, the eldest son in the family must light
the funeral pyre. As open funeral pyres are illegal in the UK, the
modern equivalent is for him to press the button that starts the
flames.
The deceased's close family, who must witness the cremation, will pray
as the eldest son circles the body, either prior to putting it in the
incinerator or circling the incinerator itself.
And also here:
https://beyondthedash.com/blog/funeral-planning/what-is-a-witness-cremation/7435
Witness cremation appeals to certain mourners for a range of reasons.
Here are some of the most common reasons a family will opt for this
service when a loved one has passed away:
1. RELIGIOUS REASONS
Some religions prefer cremation to burial, such as in the Hindu and
Buddhist faiths. Often, it is expected that the loved ones of the
deceased remain with the body until it is ready for its final
disposition. In some families, this philosophy includes accompanying
the body of the deceased to the crematory and participating in the
incineration process.
>> (All of the above learned on an incredibly interesting VIP visit to the
>> official opening of a new crematorum near where I live, in the course of
>> which we were given a full behind-the-scenes tour and a detailed
>> explanation of how it all works).
>
>I have to admit, that does sound interesting. I've only seen a couple
>of steelworks (two different kinds, though).
mayor, is that you get invited to all sorts of interesting places and
things that you would otherwise never even think about visiting.
That was how I learned about witnessed cremations. Someone on the tour
remarked on how spacious and well-presented the area immediately around
the furnace was, with the implication that it didn't need to be as it
was an out-of-sight functional aspect of the facility. To which our tour
guide (who was, IIRC, the crematorium manager) responded by explaining
that, although functional and not in any way decorative, it was a
section that is open to the public on request and therefore has to be
appropriately laid out. And then someone else asked why people would
ever want to be there when the body was cremated, and she went on to
explain about witnessed cremations and how they were typically required
at some religious funerals.
Mark
Adam Funk
Apr 30, 2021, 11:15:16 AM4/30/21
to
On 2021-04-30, Mark Goodge wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Apr 2021 14:42:12 +0100, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com>
> wrote:
>
>>On 2021-04-30, Mark Goodge wrote:
>>...
>>> Some religions insist, or at least prefer, that the actual cremation
>>> itself is witnessed,
>>
>>I didn't know that --- I thought religions with rules about funeral
>>procedures generally didn't allow (or at least favour) cremation.
Oops, I meant "indoor" or "industrial" cremations -- I knew some
> On Fri, 30 Apr 2021 14:42:12 +0100, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com>
> wrote:
>
>>On 2021-04-30, Mark Goodge wrote:
>>...
>>> Some religions insist, or at least prefer, that the actual cremation
>>> itself is witnessed,
>>
>>I didn't know that --- I thought religions with rules about funeral
>>procedures generally didn't allow (or at least favour) cremation.
religions use pyres where they can. I didn't know about the witnessing
requirement, though.
Owain Lastname
Apr 30, 2021, 6:39:01 PM4/30/21
to
On Friday, 30 April 2021 at 13:26:35 UTC+1, Mark Goodge wrote:
> Some religions insist, or at least prefer, that the actual cremation
> itself is witnessed,
They can also momentarily open a flap to allow a ceremonial puff of smoke up the chimney, for people who want that.
> Some religions insist, or at least prefer, that the actual cremation
> itself is witnessed,
Owain
Ian Jackson
May 3, 2021, 3:34:07 AM5/3/21
to
In message <if24ia...@mid.individual.net>, The Todal
<the_...@icloud.com> writes
>
>I didn't want to be un-neighbourly so I stopped using bonfires, bought
>a good garden shredder which was quite expensive, and now have my
>garden waste collected by the council.
I'm surprised your neighbour didn't switch to complaining about the
noise you made!
--
Ian
<the_...@icloud.com> writes
>
>I didn't want to be un-neighbourly so I stopped using bonfires, bought
>a good garden shredder which was quite expensive, and now have my
>garden waste collected by the council.
noise you made!
--
Ian
Vir Campestris
May 9, 2021, 6:35:59 PM5/9/21
to
On 30/04/2021 11:30, The Todal wrote:
> I used to have bonfires of branches and twigs. A neighbour came round to
> complain that the smoke was spoiling his washing, hanging on the line.
> He wanted me to wait till it was raining before lighting a bonfire -
> obviously this would have made it harder to light and even smokier.
I did once complain about a fire.
> complain that the smoke was spoiling his washing, hanging on the line.
> He wanted me to wait till it was raining before lighting a bonfire -
> obviously this would have made it harder to light and even smokier.
The landowner had made a very large bonfire of all sorts of stuff -
wood, building debris, you name it - and then lit it when the wind was
blowing the sparks onto my thatched roof.
He got the point.
Andy
Owain Lastname
May 10, 2021, 5:35:40 AM5/10/21
to
On Thursday, 29 April 2021 at 21:41:51 UTC+1, Mark Goodge wrote:
> >AFAIK all UK crematoria use natural gas. (Perhaps LPG in remote locations?)
> I wonder how that will work when gas is also phased out. You can hardly
> cremate someone with a heat pump :-)
We're all going to be eco-composted.
> >AFAIK all UK crematoria use natural gas. (Perhaps LPG in remote locations?)
> I wonder how that will work when gas is also phased out. You can hardly
> cremate someone with a heat pump :-)
Owain
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