Work in a leasehold flat

[Graham Drabble]

Hi,

I'm own a first floor flat in a 3 storey block (ie middle floor). As
is usual this is leasehold.

I've got an old boiler. It needs replacing. Plumber has looked and
says new boilers all need a way to get rid of waste water as they're
condensing. Old boiler wasn't and is nowhere near a waste water
supply. Plumber believes it's impractical to run a pipe from boiler
to current waste water supply. His suggestion would be to put a 35mm
pipe through the wall and vertically downwards to a small soakaway in
the garden. He sees little in the way of other options. It's no
longer possible to fit the old style non-condensing boilers.

My understanding is that I need the freeholder to consent to any work
on the outside? Can someone confirm this? I spoke to the freeholder
and he's said he wouldn't "be able" to give permission but that I
could talk to other leaseholders and do it "at my own risk".

Firstly, what's the law regarding who can give permission. Secondly,
is there any duty on the freeholder to grant said permission for
essential works and would this qualify?

Thanks,
--
Graham Drabble
http://www.drabble.me.uk/

[Brian Reay]

I think you will find you can have a non-condensing boiler if it isn't
practical to fit a condensing one but you need to convince the local
authority- the dept dealing with building regulations. This was
certainly the case in the past but, of course, rules may have changed.

Finding a non-condensing boiler may prove to be another can of worms,
I've not looked recently.

[Andy Burns]

Graham Drabble wrote:

> Plumber believes it's impractical to run a pipe from boiler

> to current waste water supply. [...] the freeholder
> [...] said he wouldn't "be able" to give permission

If it is genuinely impractical to fit a condensate drain, you can go
through the 'Condensing Boiler Installation Assessment Procedure' and
get permission to fit a non-condensing boiler.

<http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_PTL_CONDBOILER.pdf>

[The Todal]

On 14/02/2017 22:48, Graham Drabble wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'm own a first floor flat in a 3 storey block (ie middle floor). As
> is usual this is leasehold.
>
> I've got an old boiler. It needs replacing. Plumber has looked and
> says new boilers all need a way to get rid of waste water as they're
> condensing. Old boiler wasn't and is nowhere near a waste water
> supply. Plumber believes it's impractical to run a pipe from boiler
> to current waste water supply. His suggestion would be to put a 35mm
> pipe through the wall and vertically downwards to a small soakaway in
> the garden. He sees little in the way of other options. It's no
> longer possible to fit the old style non-condensing boilers.

Others have made the point that perhaps you might be permitted to fit a
non-condensing boiler. It would presumably cost more to run. It would
also be unattractive to any future purchaser - the energy performance
report would probably recommend replacing it with a condensing boiler.

>
> My understanding is that I need the freeholder to consent to any work
> on the outside? Can someone confirm this?

That was your legal question and it can only be answered after a careful
study of the terms of the lease. I think in principle yes, you ought to
have the permission of the freeholder (that would apply also if you
wanted to have a satellite dish fitted to the exterior of the property)
and you've said that the freeholder has declined to give permission.
That's unsatisfactory. You must always be mindful of how this situation
would appear to any future purchaser. The possibility of a future
dispute with the freeholder would deter many purchasers. Some landlords
would insist that at the end of the lease the property must be restored
to its former condition, which in your case would render the boiler
inoperative.

I spoke to the freeholder
> and he's said he wouldn't "be able" to give permission but that I
> could talk to other leaseholders and do it "at my own risk".
>
> Firstly, what's the law regarding who can give permission. Secondly,
> is there any duty on the freeholder to grant said permission for
> essential works and would this qualify?
>

There's often a provision that consent must not be unreasonably
withheld, but you need to check the lease.

My own inclination would be to find another plumber. It may be expensive
to change the position of the boiler so that it is near a waste water
outlet but that might be the most sensible solution.

[Neil Williams]

On 2017-02-15 10:05:08 +0000, The Todal said:

> My own inclination would be to find another plumber. It may be
> expensive to change the position of the boiler so that it is near a
> waste water outlet but that might be the most sensible solution.

That might not be an utterly terrible idea - i.e. moving it to the
kitchen or bathroom, if there is space. My boiler is in the loft,
which I had fitted there to replace the previous one which was also
there, as was the one before as it's still sitting on the joists! (One
day I'll be bothered to get it out and cash it in for scrap). However,
there's evidence (a filled-in old-style square flue shaped hole in the
wall and associated capped-off gas supply) that at some stage one has
been fitted in the kitchen. The radiators are all quite old and are
probably original. That's quite a big move :)

The question is whether it's easier/cheaper to run a gas pipe or a 32mm
waste pipe. Quite possibly the former, as the pipe is smaller and
could be chased into the wall.

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.

[Andy Burns]

Neil Williams wrote:

> The question is whether it's easier/cheaper to run a gas pipe or a 32mm
> waste pipe. Quite possibly the former, as the pipe is smaller and
> could be chased into the wall.

[still avoiding the legal question]

If the plumber is suggesting a combi boiler, it's more likely to require
a 22mm gas pipe than the 15mm pipe of many old conventional boilers, so
not necessarily easy to chase.

The Todal wrote:

> It would presumably cost more to run

Yes a non-condenser is less efficient than a condenser, but not such a
huge difference as the adverts may have people believe, e.g. high 80's
vs low 90's percentage efficiency.

[Omega]

On 14/02/2017 22:48, Graham Drabble wrote:

The correct term for this waste water is, 'Condensate'.

It is very common these days to run the condensate into the domestic
waste as evidence has shown, there is a possibility it can freeze in
winter on an outside pipework unless seriously lagged against the cold
especially on an exposed wall. A frozen pipe will inhibit the boiler
from firing.

By coincidence, a friend of mine is having a new condensing boiler and
the comprehensive quote British Gas given for the work makes specific
reference to the waste condensate getting plumbed into the household waste.

I have copied and pasted this from her quote for the work.

"Connecting condensate to internal waste: £99"

It might be useful to get advice from another plumber. 'Impractical' to
your present plumber, could well simply mean, can't be bothered.

As an aside, though I would try always to be a good neighbour, I
certainly wouldn't want an unsightly condensate pipe running down my
wall from the overhead property. You might give your neighbour some
credit here if he says no as he may not necessarily be stroppy but has a
sense of the aesthetic for his own place.

omega

[tim...]

"Graham Drabble" <usen...@drabble.me.uk> wrote in message
news:XnsA71CE81123348gr...@home.drabble.me.uk...

> Hi,
>
> I'm own a first floor flat in a 3 storey block (ie middle floor). As
> is usual this is leasehold.
>
> I've got an old boiler. It needs replacing. Plumber has looked and
> says new boilers all need a way to get rid of waste water as they're
> condensing. Old boiler wasn't and is nowhere near a waste water
> supply. Plumber believes it's impractical to run a pipe from boiler
> to current waste water supply. His suggestion would be to put a 35mm
> pipe through the wall and vertically downwards to a small soakaway in
> the garden. He sees little in the way of other options. It's no
> longer possible to fit the old style non-condensing boilers.
>
> My understanding is that I need the freeholder to consent to any work
> on the outside? Can someone confirm this? I spoke to the freeholder
> and he's said he wouldn't "be able" to give permission but that I
> could talk to other leaseholders and do it "at my own risk".

the whole point about this is, that it isn't your risk

It's their risk, that's why they have to be asked to consent to the change.

A dodgy installation of works on the common part of the block affect the
freeholders interest in the property

> Firstly, what's the law regarding who can give permission. Secondly,
> is there any duty on the freeholder to grant said permission for
> essential works and would this qualify?

It's the freeholder, (why would they think it was anyone else's
responsibility), Yes and don't know

tim

[Tim Watts]

On 15/02/17 11:08, Andy Burns wrote:
> Neil Williams wrote:
>
>> The question is whether it's easier/cheaper to run a gas pipe or a 32mm
>> waste pipe. Quite possibly the former, as the pipe is smaller and
>> could be chased into the wall.
>
> [still avoiding the legal question]
>
> If the plumber is suggesting a combi boiler, it's more likely to require
> a 22mm gas pipe than the 15mm pipe of many old conventional boilers, so
> not necessarily easy to chase.

And the pipe would have to be protected from the plaster/cement so
that's another layer around it (gas regs).

>
> The Todal wrote:
>
>> It would presumably cost more to run
>
> Yes a non-condenser is less efficient than a condenser, but not such a
> huge difference as the adverts may have people believe, e.g. high 80's
> vs low 90's percentage efficiency.
>

Also worth nothing that people who run high return temperatures on their
condensing boiler will never see it go into condensing mode anyway.

[Neil Williams]

On 2017-02-15 11:08:24 +0000, Andy Burns said:

> If the plumber is suggesting a combi boiler, it's more likely to
> require a 22mm gas pipe than the 15mm pipe of many old conventional
> boilers, so not necessarily easy to chase.

Easier than 32mm plastic waste! And if you don't chase it but instead
run it on the surface above the skirting it's less unsightly and you
can paint it to match the room.

Amusing thing I noticed when replacing my kitchen units - my boiler is
indeed served by a 22mm gas pipe...which comes off (is soldered to) a
15mm outlet hidden behind the kitchen units and heads in 22mm up to the
loft. Oops. It does however seem to supply gas per spec as the
installer tested it and I have had no problems with it.

[GB]

On 15/02/2017 11:03, August West wrote:

>
> The entity calling itself The Todal wrote:
>>
>> My own inclination would be to find another plumber. It may be
>> expensive to change the position of the boiler so that it is near a
>> waste water outlet but that might be the most sensible solution.
>

> Not a legal point - but my own condenser boiler has a small holding tank
> and pump, for condensate. And in my house there is a 15 foot flexible
> pipe from the boiler to the waste outlet. It is, however, a very large
> boiler (it's the largest one Bosch Worcester make), so may be unsuitable
> for a flat, and their smaller boilers may lack this feature.
>

I'm pleased we are not wasting too much time on legal issues. :)

Condensate pumps are easy to buy, and very easy to install. The pipe it
comes with is only around 5mm and very flexible. I see no reason why the
drain hose should not be extended much further than the 15 feet it
originally comes with.

http://www.screwfix.com/p/grundfos-conlift-1-ls-condensate-pump/4895F

[RobertL]

and that is what you might have to do if you are leaving the old radiators in place. Condensing boilers need to run at a lower water temperature (if they are to actually condense) so you often need to also fit larger radiators as well.

[Andy Burns]

Neil Williams wrote:

> my boiler is indeed served by a 22mm gas pipe...which comes off (is
> soldered to) a 15mm outlet hidden behind the kitchen units and heads
> in 22mm up to the loft.

Not necessarily wrong, if the 15mm section is short enough, and there
aren't too many elbows and tees in it (they each count as 1/2 a metre of
pipe IIRC) then the 22mm pipe could be fine.

[Neil Williams]

On 2017-02-15 13:49:27 +0000, Andy Burns said:

> Not necessarily wrong, if the 15mm section is short enough, and there
> aren't too many elbows and tees in it (they each count as 1/2 a metre
> of pipe IIRC) then the 22mm pipe could be fine.

Possibly it is only about 10cm with the pipe inside the wall being 22mm
(actually, as a 1970 built house it's probably imperial sized). No
real way of knowing, but when the engineer fitted the boiler he tested
the gas flow (I was watching him do most of it to see if I could have
done it[1]) and it was per spec for the boiler. Where it's positioned
it looks like the outlet was intended for a cooker but has been
repurposed (there's a larger capped one on the other side of the
kitchen, and the one for the lounge gas fire, also capped, is similarly
much larger).

[1] I know I legally can't and I don't fancy doing gas anyway due to
the risk, it was just interesting to see.

[Roland Perry]

In message <eginef...@mid.individual.net>, at 10:05:08 on Wed, 15
Feb 2017, The Todal <the_...@icloud.com> remarked:

>On 14/02/2017 22:48, Graham Drabble wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'm own a first floor flat in a 3 storey block (ie middle floor). As
>> is usual this is leasehold.
>>
>> I've got an old boiler. It needs replacing. Plumber has looked and
>> says new boilers all need a way to get rid of waste water as they're
>> condensing. Old boiler wasn't and is nowhere near a waste water
>> supply. Plumber believes it's impractical to run a pipe from boiler
>> to current waste water supply. His suggestion would be to put a 35mm
>> pipe through the wall and vertically downwards to a small soakaway in
>> the garden. He sees little in the way of other options. It's no
>> longer possible to fit the old style non-condensing boilers.
>
>Others have made the point that perhaps you might be permitted to fit a
>non-condensing boiler. It would presumably cost more to run. It would
>also be unattractive to any future purchaser - the energy performance
>report would probably recommend replacing it with a condensing boiler.

Are the people writing such reports really so incompetent that they
can't tell if that recommendation would be impossible to implement?

>My own inclination would be to find another plumber. It may be
>expensive to change the position of the boiler so that it is near a
>waste water outlet but that might be the most sensible solution.

I'd also choose a different plumber - but one who wasn't so defeatist
about internal plumbing to a waste water outlet ("supply" is presumably
a typo).
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <egir38...@mid.individual.net>, at 11:08:24 on Wed, 15
Feb 2017, Andy Burns <use...@andyburns.uk> remarked:

>> The question is whether it's easier/cheaper to run a gas pipe or a 32mm
>> waste pipe. Quite possibly the former, as the pipe is smaller and
>> could be chased into the wall.
>
>[still avoiding the legal question]
>
>If the plumber is suggesting a combi boiler, it's more likely to
>require a 22mm gas pipe than the 15mm pipe of many old conventional
>boilers, so not necessarily easy to chase.

Why chase it - when the house I think I mentioned the other day was
eventually converted from Calor Gas to mains gas, the approximately 30ft
of gas pipe was run on the surface of the walls. Very much like one
expects to see the pipes to non-microbore central heating radiators.
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <egj9ab...@mid.individual.net>, at 15:10:04 on Wed, 15
Feb 2017, Neil Williams <wensl...@pacersplace.org.uk> remarked:

>> Not necessarily wrong, if the 15mm section is short enough, and there
>> aren't too many elbows and tees in it (they each count as 1/2 a metre
>> of pipe IIRC) then the 22mm pipe could be fine.
>
>Possibly it is only about 10cm with the pipe inside the wall being 22mm
>(actually, as a 1970 built house it's probably imperial sized). No
>real way of knowing, but when the engineer fitted the boiler he tested
>the gas flow (I was watching him do most of it to see if I could have
>done it[1]) and it was per spec for the boiler. Where it's positioned
>it looks like the outlet was intended for a cooker but has been
>repurposed (there's a larger capped one on the other side of the
>kitchen, and the one for the lounge gas fire, also capped, is similarly
>much larger).

This seems to have turned into uk.diy (where I would recommend the OP
re-ask his question).

My current house has the external gas supply terminating in a
floor-level outlet vertically below where the gas hob used to be
(electric oven), with a 22mm pipe to the nearby boiler. I've bought a
double-oven gas range, and the plumber installed 22mm piping to that,
hidden behind kitchen units.

One of the visual tests one can perform on such as installation is
whether the flames on the gas hob are at all affected (diminished) when
the boiler ignites.
--
Roland Perry

[Ian Smith]

On Wed, 15 Feb 2017 15:10:04 +0000, Neil Williams <wensl...@pacersplace.org.uk> wrote:
>
> [1] I know I legally can't and I don't fancy doing gas anyway due
> to the risk, it was just interesting to see.

I think you can, if you're competent. What you can't do is do the
work for someone else or charge for it.

Having said which, though I'll happily DIY electric and water, I
wouldn't do gas.

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|

[spuorg...@gowanhill.com]

On Wednesday, 15 February 2017 15:20:43 UTC, Roland Perry wrote:
> Are the people writing such reports really so incompetent that they
> can't tell if that recommendation would be impossible to implement?

Yes. Anyway the reports aren't written by humans, they're produced by a computer script. All the human does is tick a few boxes.

An EPC on Stonehenge would probably recommend solar panels and external cladding.

Owain

[R. Mark Clayton]

On Tuesday, 14 February 2017 23:09:57 UTC, Graham Drabble wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm own a first floor flat in a 3 storey block (ie middle floor). As
> is usual this is leasehold.
>
> I've got an old boiler. It needs replacing. Plumber has looked and
> says new boilers all need a way to get rid of waste water as they're
> condensing. Old boiler wasn't and is nowhere near a waste water
> supply.

Site the boiler where it is - presumably the water it actually heats up (hundreds of times more than the condensate) isn't just run out into the garden - so site it in the kitchen or bathroom

> Plumber believes it's impractical to run a pipe from boiler
> to current waste water supply. His suggestion would be to put a 35mm
> pipe through the wall and vertically downwards to a small soakaway in
> the garden.

The problem is that the condensate is slightly acidic and will erode [lime]stone and poison the garden.

> He sees little in the way of other options. It's no
> longer possible to fit the old style non-condensing boilers.
>
> My understanding is that I need the freeholder to consent to any work
> on the outside? Can someone confirm this? I spoke to the freeholder
> and he's said he wouldn't "be able" to give permission but that I
> could talk to other leaseholders and do it "at my own risk".
>
> Firstly, what's the law regarding who can give permission. Secondly,
> is there any duty on the freeholder to grant said permission for
> essential works and would this qualify?

Better to put a long run for the condensate pipe - only 19mm and plastic and cheap. Just keeping it going downhill...

[Neil Williams]

On 2017-02-15 15:15:02 +0000, Roland Perry said:

> Why chase it - when the house I think I mentioned the other day was
> eventually converted from Calor Gas to mains gas, the approximately
> 30ft of gas pipe was run on the surface of the walls. Very much like
> one expects to see the pipes to non-microbore central heating radiators.

True, I've got exposed copper pipework in a few places and exposed JG
pushfit in others, and you just paint it to the colour of the wall,
then it's barely noticeable. 32mm waste, OTOH, would look rather ugly.

[Neil Williams]

On 2017-02-15 15:27:57 +0000, Ian Smith said:

> I think you can, if you're competent. What you can't do is do the
> work for someone else or charge for it.

I had a feeling that had changed, by adding a definition of "competent"
= "Gas Safe registered" in the law or related guidelines. That doesn't
apply to electricity (Part P aside) and water, where "competent"
effectively = "did a job compliant to all relevant current regulations"
- if you do it right you're competent, if you stuff it up you by
definition aren't.

> Having said which, though I'll happily DIY electric and water, I
> wouldn't do gas.

Same here (part P[1] aside). Water worries me more than electrics,
though, given its tendency to do a lot of damage if you get it wrong,
whereas most instances of getting wiring wrong (not that there is
anything wrong with mine in that sense) will result in a popped MCB/RCD
before your house burns down.

[1] As I've said before, and more on-topic as it's a legal restriction,
I'm put off replacing my consumer unit by the faff involved to get a
sparky in to do it / arrange and pay for a building regulations
inspection due to Part P. The existing one (a classic Wylex with
retrofit MCBs) is safe by 1970s standards and is in good condition, but
doesn't e.g. have any RCDs. If Part P didn't apply, I'd just do it one
random weekend, and my home would be safer. Given that genuine cowboys
just ignore it anyway, I fail to see any benefit obtained from the law
whatsoever and would like to see it repealed entirely - and if it were,
the job would be done, to current regulations, the following weekend.

[Clive George]

On 15/02/2017 16:40, Neil Williams wrote:
> On 2017-02-15 15:15:02 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>
>> Why chase it - when the house I think I mentioned the other day was
>> eventually converted from Calor Gas to mains gas, the approximately
>> 30ft of gas pipe was run on the surface of the walls. Very much like
>> one expects to see the pipes to non-microbore central heating radiators.
>
> True, I've got exposed copper pipework in a few places and exposed JG
> pushfit in others, and you just paint it to the colour of the wall,
> then it's barely noticeable. 32mm waste, OTOH, would look rather ugly.

Do you need 32mm waste for condensate? I thought they tended to be
smaller - 19mm?

[Clive George]

On 15/02/2017 16:47, Neil Williams wrote:
> On 2017-02-15 15:27:57 +0000, Ian Smith said:
>
>> I think you can, if you're competent. What you can't do is do the
>> work for someone else or charge for it.
>
> I had a feeling that had changed, by adding a definition of "competent"
> = "Gas Safe registered" in the law or related guidelines.

Not yet, despite the efforts of many.

> [1] As I've said before, and more on-topic as it's a legal restriction,
> I'm put off replacing my consumer unit by the faff involved to get a
> sparky in to do it / arrange and pay for a building regulations
> inspection due to Part P. The existing one (a classic Wylex with
> retrofit MCBs) is safe by 1970s standards and is in good condition, but
> doesn't e.g. have any RCDs. If Part P didn't apply, I'd just do it one
> random weekend, and my home would be safer. Given that genuine cowboys
> just ignore it anyway, I fail to see any benefit obtained from the law
> whatsoever and would like to see it repealed entirely - and if it were,
> the job would be done, to current regulations, the following weekend.

Who's going to notice if you do it competently?

If you do a bad job and burn the house down as a result, then there may
be problems, but I'd hope you'd know if you're good enough to avoid that.

[R. Mark Clayton]

On Wednesday, 15 February 2017 16:47:34 UTC, Neil Williams wrote:
> On 2017-02-15 15:27:57 +0000, Ian Smith said:
>
> > I think you can, if you're competent. What you can't do is do the
> > work for someone else or charge for it.
>
> I had a feeling that had changed, by adding a definition of "competent"
> = "Gas Safe registered" in the law or related guidelines.

Indeed - now illegal to work on gas without it.

> That doesn't
> apply to electricity (Part P aside) and water, where "competent"
> effectively = "did a job compliant to all relevant current regulations"
> - if you do it right you're competent, if you stuff it up you by
> definition aren't.

You will have trouble getting authority to connect electicity if you aren't qualified and will probably have to pay to have someone qualified and independent check your work if you DIY on a big project. Fitting a spur or a new light fitting is usually OK

IIRC you can also do water, but not high pressure work - e.g. sealed hot water tanks.

>
> > Having said which, though I'll happily DIY electric and water, I
> > wouldn't do gas.
>
> Same here (part P[1] aside). Water worries me more than electrics,
> though, given its tendency to do a lot of damage if you get it wrong,
> whereas most instances of getting wiring wrong (not that there is
> anything wrong with mine in that sense) will result in a popped MCB/RCD
> before your house burns down.

Er - oh yes and getting electrocuted if you have made a mistake somewhere and the RCD does not 'pop' as a result.

>
> [1] As I've said before, and more on-topic as it's a legal restriction,
> I'm put off replacing my consumer unit by the faff involved to get a
> sparky in to do it / arrange and pay for a building regulations
> inspection due to Part P. The existing one (a classic Wylex with
> retrofit MCBs) is safe by 1970s standards and is in good condition, but
> doesn't e.g. have any RCDs. If Part P didn't apply, I'd just do it one
> random weekend, and my home would be safer.

I was in a similar situation in my flat - bit of a lash up - two old wire fuse consumer units, a stand alone RCD before one of them. A few years back I [over] paid a spark to swap it all for a single spit range unit with RCD and MCB's. He was about four times faster than me made no mistakes and had the equipment to test everything before switching back on downstairs in the meter room.

> Given that genuine cowboys
> just ignore it anyway, I fail to see any benefit obtained from the law
> whatsoever and would like to see it repealed entirely - and if it were,
> the job would be done, to current regulations, the following weekend.

Back in 1993 I wired a friend's 5 bed house - everything except the consumer unit which was fairly new. No faults since apart from plasterers filling the NTE boxes. This is fine if you understand the reg's and know what you are doing, but not suitable for ambitious amateurs - how many could wire up an 10kW electric shower properly for instance?

[Andy Burns]

R. Mark Clayton wrote:

> Neil Williams wrote:
>
>> Ian Smith said:
>>
>>> I think you can, if you're competent. What you can't do is do the
>>> work for someone else or charge for it.
>>
>> I had a feeling that had changed, by adding a definition of "competent"
>> = "Gas Safe registered" in the law or related guidelines.
>
> Indeed - now illegal to work on gas without it.

If you mean "work" as in "for reward" then yes, but if you mean DIY
where someone deems themself to be "competent", then a cite would be
welcome ...

[Neil Williams]

On 2017-02-15 17:43:55 +0000, Clive George said:

> Who's going to notice if you do it competently?

Can be an issue on house sale if you have obvious post-Part-P
installations (i.e. using brown/blue wiring rather than red/black, as
the colours changed on the same date) done on notifiable items and no
certificates. Though I don't know if that would end up just being
covered with an insurance policy paid for by the seller and costing
about 30 quid as other minor building control breaches tend to be.

[Roland Perry]

In message <egjf0s...@mid.individual.net>, at 16:47:24 on Wed, 15

Feb 2017, Neil Williams <wensl...@pacersplace.org.uk> remarked:

>> I think you can, if you're competent. What you can't do is do the
>> work for someone else or charge for it.
>
>I had a feeling that had changed, by adding a definition of "competent"
>= "Gas Safe registered" in the law or related guidelines.

My understanding is that the only way you can sufficiently demonstrate
that you are "competent" is by *actually* having passed the relevant
exams/practicals, and not merely by asserting that if you did later take
the relevant exams/practicals you were bound to pass.
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <egjejo...@mid.individual.net>, at 16:40:24 on Wed, 15
Feb 2017, Neil Williams <wensl...@pacersplace.org.uk> remarked:

>> Why chase it - when the house I think I mentioned the other day was
>> eventually converted from Calor Gas to mains gas, the approximately
>> 30ft of gas pipe was run on the surface of the walls. Very much like
>> one expects to see the pipes to non-microbore central heating radiators.
>
>True, I've got exposed copper pipework in a few places and exposed JG
>pushfit in others, and you just paint it to the colour of the wall,
>then it's barely noticeable. 32mm waste, OTOH, would look rather ugly.

Maybe I don't have condensing boilers, but several have had "pressure
release" piping to the outside world, implemented with 22mm.
--
Roland Perry

[Andy Burns]

Neil Williams wrote:

> Clive George said:
>
>> Who's going to notice if you do it competently?
>
> Can be an issue on house sale if you have obvious post-Part-P
> installations (i.e. using brown/blue wiring rather than red/black, as
> the colours changed on the same date)

Actually they didn't; brown/blue cable could be used from April 2004,
and red/black cable could not be used after March 2006, Part P came into
effect in January 2005, so there was a cross-over period.

Additionally almost all minor work (e.g. cable replacement, or adding
sockets or lights to existing circuits) are outside the scope of Part P.

[Roland Perry]

In message <e3f25c7a-6c54-4a12...@googlegroups.com>, at
09:11:47 on Wed, 15 Feb 2017, R. Mark Clayton <notya...@gmail.com>
remarked:

>IIRC you can also do water, but not high pressure work - e.g. sealed
>hot water tanks.

I replaced the pressure relief valve on my hot water tank, which had
scaled/corroded to the point it was inoperative. Was that in fact
disallowed? (It just required unscrewing and re-screwing).
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <egjjqi...@mid.individual.net>, at 18:10:25 on Wed, 15
Feb 2017, Andy Burns <use...@andyburns.uk> remarked:

>Additionally almost all minor work (e.g. cable replacement, or adding
>sockets or lights to existing circuits) are outside the scope of Part P.

Does it matter at all which room (eg a kitchen)?

--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <egjike...@mid.individual.net>, at 17:49:02 on Wed, 15
Feb 2017, Neil Williams <wensl...@pacersplace.org.uk> remarked:

>> Who's going to notice if you do it competently?
>
>Can be an issue on house sale if you have obvious post-Part-P
>installations (i.e. using brown/blue wiring rather than red/black, as
>the colours changed on the same date)

That's clearly "incompetent". Use the same colour wire (and yes,
red/black isn't entirely unobtainable).
--
Roland Perry

[Harry Bloomfield]

Neil Williams used his keyboard to write :

> [1] I know I legally can't and I don't fancy doing gas anyway due to
> the risk, it was just interesting to see.

Legally you can do it for yourself, providing you are 'competant'.

[Harry Bloomfield]

RobertL was thinking very hard :

> and that is what you might have to do if you are leaving the old radiators in
> place. Condensing boilers need to run at a lower water temperature (if they
> are to actually condense) so you often need to also fit larger radiators as
> well.

Or reduce the heat loss through the fabric, with extra insulation. Our
heating system was installed originally in 1985, when we had single
glazing, no CW insulation and not much loft insulation. The heating
just about coped, with the radiators really hot.

Same old radiator system, new lower output condensing boiler, but DG,
new insulated doors, CW and doubled up loft insulation, the radiators
only need to be luke warm even in the worst of the cold weather.

On rising on a morning, the heating has been set back to 15C until I we
get up. Rather than wacking the 'stat up to 18C I turn the stat up a
degree at a time - gradually bringing the temperature up, so there is
no call for there to be really hot radiators. I find the gradual change
keeps the boiler in the working in the condensing temperature range.

[Harry Bloomfield]

Ian Smith has brought this to us :

> I think you can, if you're competent. What you can't do is do the
> work for someone else or charge for it.
>
> Having said which, though I'll happily DIY electric and water, I
> wouldn't do gas.

I would and do, based on examples of terrible sometimes dangerous work
I have seen those, supposedly qualified, carry out.

[Harry Bloomfield]

Andy Burns wrote on 15/02/2017 :
> If you mean "work" as in "for reward" then yes, but if you mean DIY where
> someone deems themself to be "competent", then a cite would be welcome ...

You will not find one. Corgi and now GasSafe tried hard to have it made
law, but failed. Both Corgi and GS are companies, taking lots of money
from those who register - so have an interest in protecting their
members, those who subscribe to them. Corgi now sells annual boiler
repair contracts to the public. We get regular mail from them,
addressed to the 'Boiler Owner' asking us to take out an expensive
contract with them.

[Andy Burns]

Roland Perry wrote:

> Andy Burns remarked:

>
>> almost all minor work (e.g. cable replacement, or adding sockets or
>> lights to existing circuits) are outside the scope of Part P.
>
> Does it matter at all which room (eg a kitchen)?

A kitchen used to matter, but no longer does; parts of a room with a
bath or shower still matter ...

[Harry Bloomfield]

Harry Bloomfield submitted this idea :

Sorry, competant = competent.

[Andy Burns]

Harry Bloomfield wrote:

> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> If you mean "work" as in "for reward" then yes, but if you mean DIY where
>> someone deems themself to be "competent", then a cite would be welcome ...
>
> You will not find one. Corgi and now GasSafe tried hard to have it made
> law, but failed.

That is (and has been for a long time) the situation as I understand it,
but Mark did seem very certain ...

[Neil Williams]

On 2017-02-15 17:11:47 +0000, R. Mark Clayton said:

> IIRC you can also do water, but not high pressure work - e.g. sealed
> hot water tanks.

Water is quite specific on what you can't do - indeed, sealed hot water
tanks are not allowed because they are at quite some risk of exploding
if done wrong - they pose almost as much risk as a steam engine's
boiler.

> Er - oh yes and getting electrocuted if you have made a mistake
> somewhere and the RCD does not 'pop' as a result.

Indeed so. But almost any mistake involving water (other than just
transposing hot/cold or something similar) is likely to cause thousands
of pounds of damage.

> I was in a similar situation in my flat - bit of a lash up - two old
> wire fuse consumer units, a stand alone RCD before one of them. A few
> years back I [over] paid a spark to swap it all for a single spit range
> unit with RCD and MCB's. He was about four times faster than me made
> no mistakes and had the equipment to test everything before switching
> back on downstairs in the meter room.

I'd imagine a pro would be quicker, but if I've got time who cares?

> Back in 1993 I wired a friend's 5 bed house - everything except the
> consumer unit which was fairly new. No faults since apart from
> plasterers filling the NTE boxes. This is fine if you understand the
> reg's and know what you are doing, but not suitable for ambitious
> amateurs - how many could wire up an 10kW electric shower properly for
> instance?

The key is, like most things, not doing things you don't know how to
do! But as I said legislation is useless in this regard, as it stops
the competent DIYer doing things that would make the house safer, while
being thoroughly ignored by cowboys. If you were going to legislate,
the most useful legislation would be to prevent the non-qualified doing
electrical work *for money*, i.e. to protect the unwitting against
selecting them to do a job they aren't qualified to do. Not regulating
DIY, which as I said just stops the well-behaved but competent from
doing things they could quite safely do.

[Neil Williams]

On 2017-02-15 18:08:15 +0000, Roland Perry said:

> I replaced the pressure relief valve on my hot water tank, which had
> scaled/corroded to the point it was inoperative. Was that in fact
> disallowed? (It just required unscrewing and re-screwing).

Is it an unvented unit? If so, probably. Indeed, aren't you required
to have periodic servicing of those which would find and fix such
issues given the risks they pose? Might be wrong there, though.

Interested as to *why* it was scaled/corroded - sounds like it has been
operating, which would suggest a potentially dangerous fault with your
system.

[Neil Williams]

On 2017-02-15 18:10:25 +0000, Andy Burns said:

> Additionally almost all minor work (e.g. cable replacement, or adding
> sockets or lights to existing circuits) are outside the scope of Part P.

Indeed, even more now they took bathroom (other than within a certain
range of the bath) and kitchen out of the scope, essentially because
almost nobody is actually doing anything dangerous in those locations,
quite possibly because it is *glaringly obvious* it is dangerous. And
like my CU example, swapping an old bulb on a string in a bathroom
(very common) for a proper waterproof fitting[1] is a safety
improvement that won't happen if a sparky needs calling in.

[1] Debatably allowed under the original Part P anyway, depending on
what "like for like replacement" means.

[Neil Williams]

On 2017-02-15 18:10:32 +0000, Roland Perry said:

> That's clearly "incompetent". Use the same colour wire (and yes,
> red/black isn't entirely unobtainable).

You are supposed to use the new colours for any new work. There is a
standard-format sticker to be placed by the CU identifying that a given
property uses both colour sets, mine has one which I placed there when
I did the first bit of work involving the new colours.

http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/poIAAMXQVT9S3AC6/s-l300.jpg

[Neil Williams]

On 2017-02-15 17:46:23 +0000, Roland Perry said:

> Maybe I don't have condensing boilers, but several have had "pressure
> release" piping to the outside world, implemented with 22mm.

Mine's 22mm, but I seem to recall being told that was "not to current
standards" during an annual inspection, and that a new installation
would use 32mm.

[Neil Williams]

On 2017-02-15 18:42:48 +0000, Harry Bloomfield said:

> Rather than wacking the 'stat up to 18C I turn the stat up a
> degree at a time - gradually bringing the temperature up, so there is
> no call for there to be really hot radiators. I find the gradual change
> keeps the boiler in the working in the condensing temperature range.

It would be an awful lot easier just to operate the control on the
front of your boiler to reduce the temperature of the heating circuit
by a few degrees than to faff about like that each morning.

[Harry Bloomfield]

Neil Williams formulated the question :

> It would be an awful lot easier just to operate the control on the
> front of your boiler to reduce the temperature of the heating circuit
> by a few degrees than to faff about like that each morning.

Whilst true, we like the HW to be really hot and the boiler has just
the one temperature setting. What I also find is that just wacking the
'stat up to the desired temperature, it over reacts. The house gets too
warm. So the choice is to tweak the room stat or the boiler stat, the
room stat tweaking works best.

[Roland Perry]

In message <egjoii...@mid.individual.net>, at 19:30:26 on Wed, 15
Feb 2017, Neil Williams <wensl...@pacersplace.org.uk> remarked:

>On 2017-02-15 18:08:15 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>
>> I replaced the pressure relief valve on my hot water tank, which had
>> scaled/corroded to the point it was inoperative. Was that in fact
>> disallowed? (It just required unscrewing and re-screwing).
>
>Is it an unvented unit? If so, probably.

It has a vent and an exhaust pipe to the outside world.

>Indeed, aren't you required
>to have periodic servicing of those which would find and fix such
>issues given the risks they pose? Might be wrong there, though.

Never heard of that.

>Interested as to *why* it was scaled/corroded - sounds like it has been
>operating, which would suggest a potentially dangerous fault with your
>system.

Apparently it's a weakness or even design fault with the systems the
builders put into all the houses on the development, according to other
householders. What happens is it ends up dripping on the floor (not via
the exhaust pipe) at the rate of about a bucket a day (at one point I
started to capture it).
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <egjoed...@mid.individual.net>, at 19:28:13 on Wed, 15

Feb 2017, Neil Williams <wensl...@pacersplace.org.uk> remarked:

>If you were going to legislate, the most useful legislation would be to
>prevent the non-qualified doing electrical work *for money*,

McKenzie plumbers. (I'll get my coat).
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <87fujfb...@news2.kororaa.com>, at 20:45:16 on Wed, 15
Feb 2017, August West <aug...@kororaa.com> remarked:

>>>> I replaced the pressure relief valve on my hot water tank, which had
>>>> scaled/corroded to the point it was inoperative. Was that in fact
>>>> disallowed? (It just required unscrewing and re-screwing).
>>>
>>>Is it an unvented unit? If so, probably.
>>
>> It has a vent and an exhaust pipe to the outside world.
>>
>>>Indeed, aren't you required to have periodic servicing of those which
>>>would find and fix such issues given the risks they pose? Might be
>>>wrong there, though.
>>
>> Never heard of that.
>

>Landlords are required to have gas appliences tested (yearly?).
>That's probably what Neil is thinking of.
>Householders aren't.

It's not a gas appliance (that's in the kitchen) but a hot water tank
(on the 2nd floor).
--
Roland Perry

[Andy Burns]

Roland Perry wrote:

> It's not a gas appliance (that's in the kitchen) but a hot water tank
> (on the 2nd floor).

Search for unvented G3 cylinder installation and servicing requirements

Maybe it's time to bring the uk.d-i-y daytrip to an end!

[Roger Hayter]

Neil Williams <wensl...@pacersplace.org.uk> wrote:

> On 2017-02-15 13:49:27 +0000, Andy Burns said:
>
> > Not necessarily wrong, if the 15mm section is short enough, and there
> > aren't too many elbows and tees in it (they each count as 1/2 a metre
> > of pipe IIRC) then the 22mm pipe could be fine.
>
> Possibly it is only about 10cm with the pipe inside the wall being 22mm
> (actually, as a 1970 built house it's probably imperial sized). No
> real way of knowing, but when the engineer fitted the boiler he tested
> the gas flow (I was watching him do most of it to see if I could have
> done it[1]) and it was per spec for the boiler. Where it's positioned
> it looks like the outlet was intended for a cooker but has been
> repurposed (there's a larger capped one on the other side of the
> kitchen, and the one for the lounge gas fire, also capped, is similarly
> much larger).

>
> [1] I know I legally can't and I don't fancy doing gas anyway due to
> the risk, it was just interesting to see.
>

> Neil

You legally could if you learned the rules and were manually competent.

--

Roger Hayter

[Roger Hayter]

You are not required to *demonstrate* that you are competent. Unless
something goes wrong when res ipsa loquitur is quite likely to operate
against you even if you try.

You are just required to *be* competent.


--

Roger Hayter

[Roger Hayter]

Me too. And when I last hired a Corgi registered gas fitter to check my
work (in a fit of humility) he failed to do several of the necessary
checks that I had done (but not told him about). So I was
unimpressed, even apart from his fee.


--

Roger Hayter

[Roger Hayter]

Clive George <cl...@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:

> On 15/02/2017 16:40, Neil Williams wrote:
> > On 2017-02-15 15:15:02 +0000, Roland Perry said:
> >
> >> Why chase it - when the house I think I mentioned the other day was
> >> eventually converted from Calor Gas to mains gas, the approximately
> >> 30ft of gas pipe was run on the surface of the walls. Very much like
> >> one expects to see the pipes to non-microbore central heating radiators.
> >
> > True, I've got exposed copper pipework in a few places and exposed JG
> > pushfit in others, and you just paint it to the colour of the wall,
> > then it's barely noticeable. 32mm waste, OTOH, would look rather ugly.
>
> Do you need 32mm waste for condensate? I thought they tended to be
> smaller - 19mm?

Recently they tend to use 32mm outside because it is less likely to
freeze occlusively. But no point inside, I agree. Unless you are one
of these people who likes to sleep in sub-zero temperatures and
therefore does not heat their house.

--

Roger Hayter

[Peter Parry]

On Wed, 15 Feb 2017 17:44:16 +0000, Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>My understanding is that the only way you can sufficiently demonstrate
>that you are "competent" is by *actually* having passed the relevant
>exams/practicals, and not merely by asserting that if you did later take
>the relevant exams/practicals you were bound to pass.

Only for carrying out work commercially where "competent" is defined
as being certified by a specific approval body.

[Peter Parry]

On Wed, 15 Feb 2017 09:11:47 -0800 (PST), "R. Mark Clayton"
<notya...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, 15 February 2017 16:47:34 UTC, Neil Williams wrote:

>> I had a feeling that had changed, by adding a definition of "competent"
>> = "Gas Safe registered" in the law or related guidelines.
>

>Indeed - now illegal to work on gas without it.

Only if carrying out work commercially.

"Qualification and supervision

3.—(1) No person shall carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting
or gas storage vessel unless he is competent to do so.

(2) The employer of any person carrying out such work for that
employer, every other employer and self-employed person who has
control to any extent of such work and every employer and
self-employed person who has required such work to be carried out at
any place of work under his control shall ensure that paragraph (1)
above is complied with in relation to such work.

(3) Without prejudice to the generality of paragraphs (1) and (2)
above and subject to paragraph (4) below, no employer shall allow any
of his employees to carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting or
service pipework and no self-employed person shall carry out any such
work, unless the employer or self-employed person, as the case may be,
is a member of a class of persons approved for the time being by the
Health and Safety Executive for the purposes of this paragraph.

For DIY you are still quite at liberty to self certify yourself.

(gas safety (installation and use) regulations 1998

>> That doesn't
>> apply to electricity (Part P aside) and water, where "competent"
>> effectively = "did a job compliant to all relevant current regulations"
>> - if you do it right you're competent, if you stuff it up you by
>> definition aren't.

Part P has little to do with competence and more to do with trying to
shut down small operators working for cash. Part P has recently been
relaxed to remove many common tasks from its clutches. The
introduction of Part P led (as predicted) to a rise in the number of
deaths and injuries caused by faulty electric installations as people
resorted to using things like multiple extension leads rather than
paying inflated prices for extra sockets to be installed.

[Clive George]

On 15/02/2017 17:49, Neil Williams wrote:

> On 2017-02-15 17:43:55 +0000, Clive George said:
>
>> Who's going to notice if you do it competently?
>
> Can be an issue on house sale if you have obvious post-Part-P
> installations (i.e. using brown/blue wiring rather than red/black, as

> the colours changed on the same date) done on notifiable items and no
> certificates. Though I don't know if that would end up just being
> covered with an insurance policy paid for by the seller and costing
> about 30 quid as other minor building control breaches tend to be.

I think that's pretty much what would happen.

[Neil Williams]

On 2017-02-15 20:04:17 +0000, Harry Bloomfield said:

> Whilst true, we like the HW to be really hot and the boiler has just
> the one temperature setting.

Ah, must be fairly old as I've not seen one like that in a long time.
Fair enough.

[Neil Williams]

On 2017-02-15 22:39:53 +0000, Peter Parry said:

> The
> introduction of Part P led (as predicted) to a rise in the number of
> deaths and injuries caused by faulty electric installations as people
> resorted to using things like multiple extension leads rather than
> paying inflated prices for extra sockets to be installed.

The irony being that *misunderstanding* of Part P caused that, as
outside kitchens and bathrooms adding extra sockets (e.g. spurs) to an
existing circuit was never notifiable in the first place.

[Roland Perry]

In message <egjv6a...@mid.individual.net>, at 21:24:26 on Wed, 15
Feb 2017, Andy Burns <use...@andyburns.uk> remarked:

Thanks for the keywords, I've found the item now - "combination valve
pressure regulator top spring", which is at atmospheric pressure.
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <lam9ac9ehgbo9q7hd...@4ax.com>, at 22:43:39 on
Wed, 15 Feb 2017, Peter Parry <pe...@wpp.ltd.uk> remarked:

The two stipulations here look as if they apply to (firstly) any work,
and secondly, paid for work.

3. (1) No person shall carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting
or gas storage vessel unless he is competent to do so.

(2) The employer of any person carrying out such work...

What am I missing?
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <1n1i96w.ej28mc1l8mpkdN%ro...@hayter.org>, at 21:49:13 on
Wed, 15 Feb 2017, Roger Hayter <ro...@hayter.org> remarked:

>> >> I think you can, if you're competent. What you can't do is do the
>> >> work for someone else or charge for it.
>> >
>> >I had a feeling that had changed, by adding a definition of "competent"

>>> > "Gas Safe registered" in the law or related guidelines.
>>
>> My understanding is that the only way you can sufficiently demonstrate
>> that you are "competent" is by *actually* having passed the relevant
>> exams/practicals, and not merely by asserting that if you did later take
>> the relevant exams/practicals you were bound to pass.
>
>You are not required to *demonstrate* that you are competent. Unless
>something goes wrong when res ipsa loquitur is quite likely to operate
>against you even if you try.
>
>You are just required to *be* competent.

On the basis of "innocent until proved guilty" would the prosecution
have to prove you *weren't* competent?
--
Roland Perry

[Roger Hayter]

Generally they would. These prosecutions only tend to happen when the
house has just blown up.


--

Roger Hayter

[Roger Hayter]

Logic. You have to he competent to do work. *If* you do paid work you
have to demonstrate competence in a specific way. Else not, understood.


--

Roger Hayter

[Roland Perry]

In message <1n1j76b.1me4qkgbdajecN%ro...@hayter.org>, at 08:56:38 on
Thu, 16 Feb 2017, Roger Hayter <ro...@hayter.org> remarked:

>> >You are just required to *be* competent.
>>
>> On the basis of "innocent until proved guilty" would the prosecution
>> have to prove you *weren't* competent?
>
>Generally they would. These prosecutions only tend to happen when the
>house has just blown up.

What if it was some kind of routine check, for example something that
might be done when the utility company was changing the meter?
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <1n1j78p.jb190p1bcdl43N%ro...@hayter.org>, at 08:56:39 on

Thu, 16 Feb 2017, Roger Hayter <ro...@hayter.org> remarked:

>> >Only for carrying out work commercially where "competent" is defined
>> >as being certified by a specific approval body.
>>
>> The two stipulations here look as if they apply to (firstly) any work,
>> and secondly, paid for work.
>>
>> 3. (1) No person shall carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting
>> or gas storage vessel unless he is competent to do so.
>>
>> (2) The employer of any person carrying out such work...
>>
>> What am I missing?
>
>Logic. You have to he competent to do work. *If* you do paid work you
>have to demonstrate competence in a specific way.

Why isn't the same specific test of competence required in the first
case?
--
Roland Perry

[Tim Watts]

On 15/02/17 20:07, Roland Perry wrote:

>> Indeed, aren't you required
>> to have periodic servicing of those which would find and fix such
>> issues given the risks they pose? Might be wrong there, though.
>
> Never heard of that.

The only period requirement is an annual gas inspection for rented
properties.

[Tim Watts]

The chances you will see a GasSafe fitter do a meter drop test seems to
be vanishingly small.

I've caught GasSafe/CORGI fitters out over shoddy work at least 3 times
and in one case he failed to diagnose a dangerous fault which I then did
with some help from uk.d-i-y. I reported that and that got the senior
fitter out in a hurry with many apologies.

The idiot didn't even know how to use a multimeter to verify the gas
valve had power.

Now talk to me again about "competent".

[R. Mark Clayton]

On Wednesday, 15 February 2017 18:48:11 UTC, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
> RobertL was thinking very hard :
> > and that is what you might have to do if you are leaving the old radiators in
> > place. Condensing boilers need to run at a lower water temperature (if they
> > are to actually condense) so you often need to also fit larger radiators as
> > well.
>
> Or reduce the heat loss through the fabric, with extra insulation. Our
> heating system was installed originally in 1985, when we had single
> glazing, no CW insulation and not much loft insulation. The heating
> just about coped, with the radiators really hot.
>
> Same old radiator system, new lower output condensing boiler, but DG,
> new insulated doors, CW and doubled up loft insulation, the radiators
> only need to be luke warm even in the worst of the cold weather.

Pretty much the same here - DG, CW, extra 100mm roof insulation and the heating rarely comes on - £301 for water and space heating last year (use E7 for water in the summer).

If you bought a chronostat (or 2), save even more money and have a more comfortable home. Up to six temp levels per day and this one optimises switch on.

e.g. http://www.plumbworld.co.uk/honeywell-cm907-7-day-761-17210

>
> On rising on a morning, the heating has been set back to 15C until I we
> get up. Rather than wacking the 'stat up to 18C I turn the stat up a

> degree at a time - gradually bringing the temperature up, so there is
> no call for there to be really hot radiators. I find the gradual change
> keeps the boiler in the working in the condensing temperature range.

Just lower the boiler temperature a bit. The chronostat might call the boiler for longer, but it would stay in the condensing range. Easy to tell - plumes of water vapour from the terminal.

[R. Mark Clayton]

Either your room stat is not working or you don't have zone valves.

Some boilers have two call circuits - one for CH - which runs at an [economy] level of your choosing and one for HW, which runs at max. While the tank is largely cold the return from it will still be cold, so the boiler will still condense, but the water heat up quickly.

[R. Mark Clayton]

On Wednesday, 15 February 2017 11:49:39 UTC, Neil Williams wrote:
> On 2017-02-15 11:08:24 +0000, Andy Burns said:
>
> > If the plumber is suggesting a combi boiler, it's more likely to
> > require a 22mm gas pipe than the 15mm pipe of many old conventional
> > boilers, so not necessarily easy to chase.
>
> Easier than 32mm plastic waste! And if you don't chase it but instead
> run it on the surface above the skirting it's less unsightly and you
> can paint it to match the room.
>
> Amusing thing I noticed when replacing my kitchen units - my boiler is
> indeed served by a 22mm gas pipe...which comes off (is soldered to) a
> 15mm outlet hidden behind the kitchen units and heads in 22mm up to the
> loft. Oops. It does however seem to supply gas per spec as the
> installer tested it and I have had no problems with it.

Condensate pipe on my boiler and several others I have seen is 21.5mmm polypropylene overflow pipe. (Incorrectly gave dimension as 19mm previously).

[Roger Hayter]

In practice it does not happen that really egregious faults are found by
the utilities, such that they try to find out who carried out the work
so they can be prosecuted. It could happen, I suppose, but it doesn't.
Perhaps partly because people who are not competent don't generally do
the work.



--

Roger Hayter

[Roger Hayter]

Are you asking about the correct construction of the law, or are you
asking why a different law was not passed?

If the latter, probably because it would have been disproportionate,
unnecessary and costly and annoying to competent householders.



--

Roger Hayter

[Neil Williams]

On 2017-02-16 07:55:36 +0000, Roland Perry said:

> On the basis of "innocent until proved guilty" would the prosecution
> have to prove you *weren't* competent?

If you stuffed it up, which is the most likely case where you'd get in
trouble, you near enough by definition weren't.

[Neil Williams]

On 2017-02-16 09:42:30 +0000, Roland Perry said:

> What if it was some kind of routine check, for example something that
> might be done when the utility company was changing the meter?

When the meter is changed they would look at pipework at the meter but
not elsewhere. It isn't a periodic inspection.

[Roland Perry]

In message <egljcu...@mid.individual.net>, at 12:14:28 on Thu, 16
Feb 2017, Neil Williams <wensl...@pacersplace.org.uk> remarked:

>> What if it was some kind of routine check, for example something that
>> might be done when the utility company was changing the meter?
>
>When the meter is changed they would look at pipework at the meter but
>not elsewhere. It isn't a periodic inspection.

I was thinking more about electricity (eg smart) meter replacement.
Maybe an amateur will have done some dodgy work between the main fuse
and the meter and consumer unit.
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <egljbn...@mid.individual.net>, at 12:13:48 on Thu, 16

Feb 2017, Neil Williams <wensl...@pacersplace.org.uk> remarked:

>> On the basis of "innocent until proved guilty" would the prosecution
>> have to prove you *weren't* competent?
>
>If you stuffed it up, which is the most likely case where you'd get in
>trouble, you near enough by definition weren't.

But we are told people with the formal qualification also stuff up. Is
there a process to force them to be re-accredited?
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <1n1jese.1efet3qfrmnjN%ro...@hayter.org>, at 12:03:15 on Thu,

16 Feb 2017, Roger Hayter <ro...@hayter.org> remarked:

>> >> The two stipulations here look as if they apply to (firstly) any work,
>> >> and secondly, paid for work.
>> >>
>> >> 3. (1) No person shall carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting
>> >> or gas storage vessel unless he is competent to do so.
>> >>
>> >> (2) The employer of any person carrying out such work...
>> >>
>> >> What am I missing?
>> >
>> >Logic. You have to he competent to do work. *If* you do paid work you
>> >have to demonstrate competence in a specific way.
>>
>> Why isn't the same specific test of competence required in the first
>> case?
>
>Are you asking about the correct construction of the law, or are you
>asking why a different law was not passed?

I'm asking why the "no person" can self-certify, but as soon as they
have an employer they need to be formally certified.

Thus the meaning of "competent" changes from one subsection to the next.
Surely that's a gross drafting error.
--
Roland Perry

[Peter Parry]

On Thu, 16 Feb 2017 09:40:53 +0000, Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

Because those who wrote the law and Parliament which passed it decided
that would be disproportionate and unnecessary.

The Approved Code of Practice (Safety in the installation and use
of gas systems and appliances Approved Code of Practice and guidance
Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998) , in the Guidance
note to Regulation 2(1) says -

"51 For the purposes of these Regulations, ‘work’ includes
do-it-yourself activities, work undertaken as a favour for friends and
relatives, and work for which there is no expectation of reward or
gain, eg voluntary activity for charities. This means that anyone
carrying out such work must have the necessary competence, as required
by regulation 3(1). However, membership of an HSE approved class of
persons (under regulation 3(3)) is required only by businesses
carrying out gas fitting work"

Regulation 3(1) says - No person shall carry out any work in relation

to a gas fitting or gas storage vessel unless he is competent to do
so. "

The guidance note for that section says -
"82 Anyone who does work on a gas fitting or gas storage vessel must
be competent to do so (whether or not they are required to be a member
of an approved class of persons). Therefore, do-it-yourself gas
engineers and those performing favours for friends and relatives all
need to have the required competence. The level and range of
competence should match the full extent of work done, but needs only
to be sufficient for and relevant to that work. "

Which seems pretty sensible. Most accidents and deaths/serious
accidents are caused by commercial enterprises or registered gas
fitters. A look at the periodic "Which?" reports on how well Gas Safe
registered fitters carry out boiler servicing checks will soon show
what standards in the industry are like.

[Harry Bloomfield]

After serious thinking Neil Williams wrote :

> On 2017-02-15 20:04:17 +0000, Harry Bloomfield said:
>
>> Whilst true, we like the HW to be really hot and the boiler has just
>> the one temperature setting.
>
> Ah, must be fairly old as I've not seen one like that in a long time.
> Fair enough.
>
> Neil

Not that old, maybe 4 years since it was installed.

[Roger Hayter]

That is generally investigated and prosecuted because it is likely to
involve theft rather than specifically because an unqualified person has
done the work. If a qualified person did it then it might still be
theft but they would tidy up after themselves so it probaby would not be
suspected. But if the meter were still bypassed a prosecution would be
likely even if the wiring standards were impeccable.


--

Roger Hayter

[Andy Burns]

Roland Perry wrote:

> Neil Williams remarked:

>
>> When the meter is changed they would look at pipework at the meter but
>> not elsewhere. It isn't a periodic inspection.
>
> I was thinking more about electricity (eg smart) meter replacement.
> Maybe an amateur will have done some dodgy work between the main fuse
> and the meter and consumer unit.

The first time my gas meter was replaced, it was just a
shut-off/un-bolt/bolt-in operation, no gas soundness test before or
after. He did leave an advisory that the bonding to gas pipe was on the
wrong side of the meter (it had been that way "forever" so I changed it
after he left).

The second time, I had both gas and electricity replaced with smart
meters, one person did both in a single visit, no tests before hand (I
would have thought it could be useful to do that, in case a fault was
found afterwards to know if it was pre-existing)

But he did a gas soundness test afterwards (no proper purging with door
open though, just ran the hob for a minute with or so before re-lighting
boiler) and checked polarity was correct with a cheapo plugin neon 13A
socket tester.

He did notice that during the previous 20+ years I'd upgraded the meter
tails from 16mm^2 to 25mm^2 and the earth from 4mm^2 to 16mm^2 (at time
of replacing CU) and fitted an external isolator, so he changed the
cut-out fuse from 60A to 100A (might be handy if a electric shower was
fitted) and made no comment about the old seal being broken.

[Harry Bloomfield]

R. Mark Clayton presented the following explanation :

> Either your room stat is not working or you don't have zone valves.

The room stat works perfectly, electronic and very accurate. I have a
separate system which logs room temperature and stores it 24/7 every 20
seconds, with a resolution of 0.1C - so I can see the heating over
responds, when called for first thing. It is a single zone, pointless
having more as we leave internal doors open. I bought enough radiator
stats to go around, but had second thoughts about fitting them, feeling
it was pointless.

>
> Some boilers have two call circuits - one for CH - which runs at an [economy]
> level of your choosing and one for HW, which runs at max. While the tank is
> largely cold the return from it will still be cold, so the boiler will still
> condense, but the water heat up quickly.

A dual boiler stat would help, but not help with the over reaction of
the heating system first thing on a morning.

[Roland Perry]

In message <qaabacdf1m3f3b2se...@4ax.com>, at 13:53:17 on
Thu, 16 Feb 2017, Peter Parry <pe...@wpp.ltd.uk> remarked:

>On Thu, 16 Feb 2017 09:40:53 +0000, Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <1n1j78p.jb190p1bcdl43N%ro...@hayter.org>, at 08:56:39 on
>>Thu, 16 Feb 2017, Roger Hayter <ro...@hayter.org> remarked:
>>>> >Only for carrying out work commercially where "competent" is defined
>>>> >as being certified by a specific approval body.
>>>>
>>>> The two stipulations here look as if they apply to (firstly) any work,
>>>> and secondly, paid for work.
>>>>
>>>> 3. (1) No person shall carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting
>>>> or gas storage vessel unless he is competent to do so.
>>>>
>>>> (2) The employer of any person carrying out such work...
>>>>
>>>> What am I missing?
>>>
>>>Logic. You have to he competent to do work. *If* you do paid work you
>>>have to demonstrate competence in a specific way.
>>
>>Why isn't the same specific test of competence required in the first
>>case?
>
>Because those who wrote the law and Parliament which passed it decided
>that would be disproportionate and unnecessary.
>
>The Approved Code of Practice (Safety in the installation and use
>of gas systems and appliances Approved Code of Practice and guidance
>Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998) , in the Guidance
>note to Regulation 2(1) says -

That seems to settle the matter to my satisfaction. Thanks.

Whether it will satisfy those who don't believe that guidance notes form
part of the law (only formal caselaw being able to do so), remains to be
seen.

>"51 For the purposes of these Regulations, ‘work’ includes
>do-it-yourself activities, work undertaken as a favour for friends and
>relatives, and work for which there is no expectation of reward or
>gain, eg voluntary activity for charities. This means that anyone
>carrying out such work must have the necessary competence, as required
>by regulation 3(1). However, membership of an HSE approved class of
>persons (under regulation 3(3)) is required only by businesses
>carrying out gas fitting work"
>
>Regulation 3(1) says - No person shall carry out any work in relation
>to a gas fitting or gas storage vessel unless he is competent to do
>so. "
>
>The guidance note for that section says -
>"82 Anyone who does work on a gas fitting or gas storage vessel must
>be competent to do so (whether or not they are required to be a member
>of an approved class of persons). Therefore, do-it-yourself gas
>engineers and those performing favours for friends and relatives all
>need to have the required competence. The level and range of
>competence should match the full extent of work done, but needs only
>to be sufficient for and relevant to that work. "
>
>Which seems pretty sensible. Most accidents and deaths/serious
>accidents are caused by commercial enterprises or registered gas
>fitters. A look at the periodic "Which?" reports on how well Gas Safe
>registered fitters carry out boiler servicing checks will soon show
>what standards in the industry are like.

--
Roland Perry

[Neil Williams]

On 2017-02-16 14:11:03 +0000, Harry Bloomfield said:

> I bought enough radiator
> stats to go around, but had second thoughts about fitting them, feeling
> it was pointless.

The only reason I have these is to easily balance the system as
upstairs I have 4 radiators and downstairs only 2.

[Harry Bloomfield]

R. Mark Clayton formulated on Thursday :

> If you bought a chronostat (or 2), save even more money and have a more
> comfortable home. Up to six temp levels per day and this one optimises
> switch on.

I actually designed a microprocessor based one 40 years ago which could
do that, it was way ahead of the market and intended to be a commercial
venture, but never quite got the backing.

>
> e.g. http://www.plumbworld.co.uk/honeywell-cm907-7-day-761-17210
>
>>
>> On rising on a morning, the heating has been set back to 15C until I we
>> get up. Rather than wacking the 'stat up to 18C I turn the stat up a
>> degree at a time - gradually bringing the temperature up, so there is
>> no call for there to be really hot radiators. I find the gradual change
>> keeps the boiler in the working in the condensing temperature range.
>
> Just lower the boiler temperature a bit. The chronostat might call the
> boiler for longer, but it would stay in the condensing range. Easy to tell -
> plumes of water vapour from the terminal.

As explained, I can either turn the boiler stat up and down twice a day
for the HW, or simply turn the room stat up gradually on a morning. The
latter is easier to get to, the former is in a cupboard in the kitchen.
Further, our heating bills are miniscule for the size of the place.

[Roland Perry]

In message <1n1jlk1.1yt1cldur76fbN%ro...@hayter.org>, at 14:03:50 on
Thu, 16 Feb 2017, Roger Hayter <ro...@hayter.org> remarked:

>> >> What if it was some kind of routine check, for example something that
>> >> might be done when the utility company was changing the meter?
>> >
>> >When the meter is changed they would look at pipework at the meter but
>> >not elsewhere. It isn't a periodic inspection.
>>
>> I was thinking more about electricity (eg smart) meter replacement.
>> Maybe an amateur will have done some dodgy work between the main fuse
>> and the meter and consumer unit.
>
>That is generally investigated and prosecuted because it is likely to
>involve theft rather than specifically because an unqualified person has
>done the work.

Theft of the original tails? Like branches cut off a neighbour's tree, d
you have to throw them over the fence into the Electricity Board's
depot?

>But if the meter were still bypassed a prosecution would be
>likely even if the wiring standards were impeccable.

Who mentioned bypassing the meter?

The kind of scenario I had in mind was someone relocating the meter or
consumer unit to a place where it's more convenient to read/change
fuses.

Errors could include wires that are to thin, plastering them into the
wall, or failing to reinstate the earthing adequately.
--
Roland Perry

[Andy Burns]

Roland Perry wrote:

> Roger Hayter <ro...@hayter.org> remarked:

>
> Theft of the original tails? Like branches cut off a neighbour's tree, d
> you have to throw them over the fence into the Electricity Board's
> depot?
>
>> But if the meter were still bypassed a prosecution would be
>> likely even if the wiring standards were impeccable.
>
> Who mentioned bypassing the meter?

An "amateur" might want to work on the tails between the meter and
consumer unit but you mentioned "dodgy work between the main fuse
and the meter" nobody other than the supply company should have a need
to touch the cables between the cut-out and the meter, any alterations
to the input side of the meter would indicate bypassing could have been
done in the past.

[Harry Bloomfield]

Neil Williams brought next idea :
> If you were going to legislate,
> the most useful legislation would be to prevent the non-qualified doing
> electrical work *for money*, i.e. to protect the unwitting against
> selecting them to do a job they aren't qualified to do. Not regulating
> DIY, which as I said just stops the well-behaved but competent from
> doing things they could quite safely do.

Sorry I must disagree. So far as electrical work is concerned, some
DIY'er operate on the principle that if it works when it completed,
then it must be OK. I recent example I came across was a cable tapped
onto the lighting circuit, extended in the outdoors with bare
connectors, feeding an outside light and a metal-clad 13amp socket, all
out in the weather. It was all without an earth, for the earth wire had
eroded away, moisture had linked the live to the sockets outer metal,
so that was live. The owner thought because it had worked it was fine,
until he began getting belts from thing which were plugged in when the
ground was wet.

[Harry Bloomfield]

Roland Perry laid this down on his screen :

> What if it was some kind of routine check, for example something that might
> be done when the utility company was changing the meter?

The only checks they carry out, is a (pressure) drop test (for obvious
leaks), to see if the pressure falls over a period with the supply
isolated and then they bleed and ensure appliances appliances are bled.
Most are just meter monkeys, rather than qualified gas engineers.
Trained to do the one single job of swapping meters.

[Harry Bloomfield]

Andy Burns wrote :

> An "amateur" might want to work on the tails between the meter and consumer
> unit but you mentioned "dodgy work between the main fuse
> and the meter" nobody other than the supply company should have a need to
> touch the cables between the cut-out and the meter, any alterations to the
> input side of the meter would indicate bypassing could have been done in the
> past.

It is and was common for electricians to cut the meter seal and
disconnect the meter tails, to enable work to be carried out downstream
of the meter, maybe replacing the consumer unit or etc.. I have never
known a utility complain about the seal having been cut.

I myself recently cut the seal, prior to SM's being fitted, to add an
inline isolator - so as to provide myself with a means to easily
isolate my meter tails. Meter are outdoors, CU is indoors, just behind
the meter.

[Peter Parry]

On Thu, 16 Feb 2017 14:09:00 +0000, Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <qaabacdf1m3f3b2se...@4ax.com>, at 13:53:17 on
>Thu, 16 Feb 2017, Peter Parry <pe...@wpp.ltd.uk> remarked:

>That seems to settle the matter to my satisfaction. Thanks.
>
>Whether it will satisfy those who don't believe that guidance notes form
>part of the law (only formal caselaw being able to do so), remains to be
>seen.

Usefully the guidance gives guidance on just that -

"Approved Code of Practice
This Code has been approved by the Health and Safety Executive, with
the consent of the Secretary of State. It gives practical advice on
how to comply with the law. If you follow the advice you will be doing
enough to comply with the law in respect of those specific matters on
which the Code gives advice. You may use alternative methods to those
set out in the Code in order to comply with the law.

However, the Code has a special legal status. If you are prosecuted
for breach of health and safety law, and it is proved that you did not
follow the relevant provisions of the Code, you will need to show that
you have complied with the law in some other way or a Court will find
you at fault.

Guidance
This guidance is issued by the Health and Safety Executive. Following
the guidance is not compulsory, unless specifically stated, and you
are free to take other action. But if you do follow the guidance you
will normally be doing enough to comply with the law. Health and
safety inspectors seek to secure compliance with the law and may refer
to this guidance. "

The document specifically (and unusually) brings DIY work into a part
of its remit.

[Roger Hayter]

snip
It will perfectly satisfy us, because the guidance notes just say what
several of us have been telling you is written on the face of the
regulations.


Roger Hayter

[Roger Hayter]

Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:


snip

>
> The kind of scenario I had in mind was someone relocating the meter or
> consumer unit to a place where it's more convenient to read/change
> fuses.
>
> Errors could include wires that are to thin, plastering them into the
> wall, or failing to reinstate the earthing adequately.

I think the sort of thing you are describing hardly ever happens. If it
did then I suppose people changing the meter might notice. More likely
they'd just do it properly, if they didn't think it was to bypass the
meter. They might well suppose that it was their erstwhile colleagues
who had done it.

--

Roger Hayter

[Harry Bloomfield]

Peter Parry wrote on 16/02/2017 :
> Which seems pretty sensible. Most accidents and deaths/serious
> accidents are caused by commercial enterprises or registered gas
> fitters. A look at the periodic "Which?" reports on how well Gas Safe
> registered fitters carry out boiler servicing checks will soon show
> what standards in the industry are like.

I agree absolutely. My parents paid British Gas to install a gas water
heater. The installer was so incompetent he had tried to solder chrome
plated pipe into a chrome plated elbow fitting - without even
attempting to remove the chrome. Obviously it didn't work, you cannot
solder to chrome and it leaked gas for years. My elderly parents never
noticed the smell, until I smelled it and tracked down the source.

Tyre fitters leaving wheel bolts loose.

When we had our boiler replaced by a lower capacity one, the quoting
company tried to insist we would need a larger pipe installed and round
the outside of the house to the meter. They hadn't actually checked or
bothered to do the sums for the pipe, just assumed based on cursory
inspection. I did the calculations and an horrible new pipe outside
wasn't even close to being necessary. They installed it using the
existing pipe, but the fitter forgot to fit a condensate pipe so had to
be called back to fit it.

I have numerous personal examples of 'qualified professionals' not
doing jobs properly, or leaving them in a dangerous condition and one
near death experience resulting from professional incompetence.

I now check all work done by the professionally competent has been
competently completed. I trust no one but myself.

[Roger Hayter]

No it's a comprehension error. The *meaning* of "competent" doesn't
change. What changes is the method required to demonstrate that
competence. If you do it for money, and therefore probably much more
often, then you have to get a certificate to prove it.








--

Roger Hayter

[Roger Hayter]

The distribution people recently cut off the seals on my meter so that
they could disconnect both terminals while they replaced a transfomer.
Presumably they didn't think it wise to connect it up while still
connected to the insides of the houses and before testing. They made no
attempt to replace the seals, though I would have thought they had the
legal standing to do so if they wanted to.


--

Roger Hayter

[Roger Hayter]

If a house they've done incorrectly blows up there is a process to put
them in prison for a time. This has happened more than once.
Otherwise the chance they will be detected is miniscule. One of the
reasons the whole scheme is pretty pointless.


--

Roger Hayter

[R. Mark Clayton]

Likewise - we had an enthusiastic DIY chair of governors do work in a school. Someone blew the whistle. I examined his work first - 1mm wire to extension socket in the main hall (for a fish tank), earth over-tightened and snapped off, cable through metal support - no grommet, but his piece de resistance was bodged partitions in a class room - here he had cut the ceiling tiles with a [Stanley] knife shaved off the outer insulation on some lighting wiring and half way through the inner and nearly touching the unearthed metal frame of the partition. Terrifying!

In fact the only 'belt' I have ever had when not working on electrical items was in France, careless plumbers had caught the lead of their extension in an unearthed metal door and when I went to open it zzzzap! I had to throw myself on the floor to get my hand off. Half an hour to recover from the shock.