Council wants bank statements
Foggy Dewhurst
My local council wants me to send them original statements of the last
two months transactions of all my bank accounts. This is because I am an
OAP on State Pension, claiming Housing Benefit and Council Tax Benefit.
I have no problem per se giving them a bank statement, I only have my
Post Office account to draw my Pension but this will show my account
number and sort code.
I am not happy that the council will have my account number. Can I
legally black out these details? Quite frankly I don't trust anyone with
my actual account number, sort code etc particularly my local council,
who have in the past sold my telephone number to a third party without
my consent.
Any advice please?
GP Hardy
> I have no problem per se giving them a bank statement, I only have my
> Post Office account to draw my Pension but this will show my account
> number and sort code.
Does the post office account have a cheque book?
Usenet Nutter
And what exactly are a Council going to do with your bank account
number and sort code ..Pay in loads of cash ? Refuse them the info
and they will simply suspend your HB and CTB . If you had a cheque
account that info is available on the cheques you issue ...Just give
them it and get on with your life .
Iain
news:hi5i4j$oi$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
My council have also requested original documents from me. I refuse to give
them the original - I always send them copies. I do not trust sending
original documents to them. It is not unknown for documents to be lost.
It does seem excessive wanting to see all your transactions for two months.
If you're happy with that, then that's fine. It sounds as though you have
more than one account. Presumably they already do, or will, transfer
payments into an account, so they have that detail. Regarding the other
accounts, I would send them copies with the sort and account numbers blacked
out. If they query the copies, then I assume you could get them copied at a
One Stop Shop, still with the numbers blanked out.
Data Protection Act 1998 (as amended):
Part 1, Principle 3.
3. Personal data shall be adequate, relevant and not excessive in relation
to the purpose or purposes for which they are processed.
If they also want the account numbers, then I would say that they would need
to justify that.
IANAL
Iain
Usenet Nutter
>"Foggy Dewhurst" <Foggy.D...@nospamhere.com> wrote in message
>news:hi5i4j$oi$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
>> What is my legal position on this scenario?
>>
>> My local council wants me to send them original statements of the last two
>> months transactions of all my bank accounts. This is because I am an OAP
>> on State Pension, claiming Housing Benefit and Council Tax Benefit.
>>
>> I have no problem per se giving them a bank statement, I only have my Post
>> Office account to draw my Pension but this will show my account number and
>> sort code.
>>
>> I am not happy that the council will have my account number. Can I legally
>> black out these details? Quite frankly I don't trust anyone with my actual
>> account number, sort code etc particularly my local council, who have in
>> the past sold my telephone number to a third party without my consent.
>>
>> Any advice please?
>
>My council have also requested original documents from me. I refuse to give
>them the original - I always send them copies. I do not trust sending
>original documents to them. It is not unknown for documents to be lost.
>
>It does seem excessive wanting to see all your transactions for two months.
>If you're happy with that, then that's fine.
The reason two months is required is to see if there are any regular
payments going in to the account ..in other words does the HB/CTB
claimant have any undisclosed income .
> It sounds as though you have
>more than one account. Presumably they already do, or will, transfer
>payments into an account, so they have that detail.
What payments ? CTB and HB are paid by reducing the amount payable not
by making refunds .
Usenet Nutter
What difference does that make ?
Iain
news:jbqck51mq5imq6qul...@4ax.com...
Yes - true, if in council property. I was thinking about others situations
where payments are made into one's bank.
Iain
bartc
Identity theft and fraud all require lots of little pieces of data.
Name, account number and sort code are a good start. Home address and
transactions on the statement can furnish further clues. Cheques also
contain some of this (and a signature), but usually had restricted
circulation and are anyway dying out.
The Council itself wouldn't have such designs but you never know where this
information is going to end up. The less these details are circulated, the
better.
And statement items would hint at details of a personal life that the
Council have no right to know. Also, if the purpose is to see whether there
are other sources of income, the claim could anyway have other undisclosed
accounts.
I would blank out the details mentioned unless I was convinced they were
absolutely essential to give out.
--
Bartc
Adrian
saying:
> Identity theft and fraud all require lots of little pieces of data.
>
> Name, account number and sort code are a good start. Home address and
> transactions on the statement can furnish further clues. Cheques also
> contain some of this (and a signature), but usually had restricted
> circulation and are anyway dying out.
Cheques do, indeed, contain sort code, account number, name and signature.
The council already have your address, name and signature - I presume you
filled in the electoral roll form?
If you pay your council tax, or any other payments (I rent a couple of
lock-up garages), they also have my bank details for the DDs.
Sara
Adrian <tooma...@gmail.com> wrote:
'The Council' have your bank details, not necessarily anyone working for
the Council who may have sight of the post. I'd have thought that was
the worry, much like the old scam where someone working in a restaurant
(or whatever) would record your credit card details from the slips in
the till. That particular problem was dealt with by the use of security
numbers on the back of the card. I'd be wary though - can you insist
that the council identify any staff that have access to the bank
details? I doubt it, but it may be worth asking. Otherwise I agree,
blank out the account number before giving them copies.
--
Sara
Cuddler of rats, cats and husband
Flop
It is not unreasonable for a council to try and protect itself against
fraud. Asking to see bank statements is one method (though a little
naive - if you had several accounts).
You have several lines of defence against identity fraud:
a) Primary. Sort code, account number and credit card number. All these
are readily accessible when you issue a cheque or use your card or
transfer money.
b) Secondary. PINs, security number on the back of cards and access
codes for internet/phone banking. Guard these with your life - they are
the key to identity fraud.
c) Change PINs and codes frequently.
It is not a great problem to let the council see these accounts from the
point of view of security - they will want to know that the accounts are
the ones receiving benefit.
They want to determine other income. Therefore, if you do not want them
to see what you spend your money on, blackout details (tell them they
have been 'redacted' - perfectly common in this day and age).
Ask the council if you can have an appointment to bring in the accounts
and show a named official.
or ask them to nominate a person to accept, review and return the
documents if you have to post them in.
If you cannot travel to the council offices, do not want to let the
accounts out of your hands and are willing, ask the council if they will
allow (and pay for) a local solicitor to review them.
Flop
tim....
Because, as someone has already noted, if it did the OP would be handing
out the requested details willy nilly already.
tim
Jan Hyde
thoughts were released on Thu, 07 Jan 2010 21:05:31 +0000
bearing the following fruit:
Interesting. I haven't had bank statements for a couple of
years now and suspect it will become increasing rare.
--
Jan Hyde
GP Hardy
>
> "Usenet Nutter" wrote...
>> On Thu, 07 Jan 2010 22:10:08 +0000, "GP Hardy" wrote:
>>>Does the post office account have a cheque book?
>> What difference does that make ?
> Because, as someone has already noted, if it did the OP would be handing
> out the requested details willy nilly already.
As well as a specimen signature...
Kipling
>>Any advice please?
>
> Interesting. I haven't had bank statements for a couple of
> years now and suspect it will become increasing rare.
> --
> Jan Hyde
>
I dare say you could print off something similar though.... I know i can
download my "statements" to an Excel file and print them - but obviously i
could edit them, but it isnt hard to "doctor" a paper statement anyway.
Humbug
That's very surprising. You should have a means of telling what your
bank has done with your money.
AAMOF my accountant has just asked me for my statements for my
business account from August 2008 to July 2009. I can't get them
directly online, but my bank will allow me to download monthly
statements (as .csv files, all with the same file name), so I can
contruct a spreadsheet for the period.
Your bank cannot refuse to tell you what they've done with your money,
but they may not always make it easy.
--
Humbug
Roland Perry
Sat, 9 Jan 2010, Humbug <hum...@tofee.net> remarked:
>>I haven't had bank statements for a couple of
>>years now and suspect it will become increasing rare.
>
>That's very surprising. You should have a means of telling what your
>bank has done with your money.
I suspect that means "paper bank statements".
I'm constantly being nagged to convert credit card and frequent flyer
statements to online version, and my mobile phone provider only has the
bill online. (I'm not certain they refuse to supply a printed one, but
it must be difficult or I'd have opted for it).
>AAMOF my accountant has just asked me for my statements for my
>business account from August 2008 to July 2009. I can't get them
>directly online, but my bank will allow me to download monthly
>statements (as .csv files, all with the same file name), so I can
>contruct a spreadsheet for the period.
You'll find that some banks charge a fee for providing online "old
statements" from their archive (which can be as recent as anything older
than 6 months). Other utility providers may not even offer such a
service.
--
Roland Perry
tim....
"Roland Perry" <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote in message
news:MAsTZ6mT...@perry.co.uk...
> In message <fmofk55mvh573aglr...@4ax.com>, at 02:05:24 on
> Sat, 9 Jan 2010, Humbug <hum...@tofee.net> remarked:
>>>I haven't had bank statements for a couple of
>>>years now and suspect it will become increasing rare.
>>
>>That's very surprising. You should have a means of telling what your
>>bank has done with your money.
>
> I suspect that means "paper bank statements".
>
> I'm constantly being nagged to convert credit card and frequent flyer
> statements to online version, and my mobile phone provider only has the
> bill online. (I'm not certain they refuse to supply a printed one, but it
I can understand why you want to continue to receive paper copy of
"financial" items, but frequent flyer points don't seem so important to
worry about (IME their monetary value is minimal in practice).
tim
Roland Perry
2010, tim.... <tims_n...@yahoo.co.uk> remarked:
>I can understand why you want to continue to receive paper copy of
>"financial" items, but frequent flyer points don't seem so important to
>worry about
Because the airlines (none of which are called Ryanair) consistently
fail to update the points properly, and it's such a pain to have to
remember to trawl round various websites checking, when a piece of paper
arriving in the post you can tell at a glance.
>(IME their monetary value is minimal in practice).
They are worth less than they used to be (it was once anything up to one
free flight in five on some routings, and before we had "taxes" to pay).
But I still manage to collect enough to do (say) one transatlantic round
trip a year - and that's just from longhaul, I almost always use
low-costs on short haul.
--
Roland Perry
tim....
> In message <7qr3oi...@mid.individual.net>, at 10:25:06 on Sat, 9 Jan
> 2010, tim.... <tims_n...@yahoo.co.uk> remarked:
>
>>I can understand why you want to continue to receive paper copy of
>>"financial" items, but frequent flyer points don't seem so important to
>>worry about
>
> Because the airlines (none of which are called Ryanair)
I know, but that is part of the point.
When I was collecting "points" they racked up the "fees and charges" that
you had to pay to use them, to the point where it was cheaper to just pay
the full fare with an LCC.
I can see that if you collected enough points to buy a long haul ticket this
doesn't apply, but I never collected that many.
tim
Usenet Nutter
Ah I see what you meant and yes it was myself who mentioned about the
details being on a cheque .:-)
Usenet Nutter
Well Glasgow City Council reduces CT by the amount of CTB so no
payments go in to a bank account altho' I guess if there is a credit
due they would ( or could ) do that but might pay by cheque .
Roland Perry
2010, tim.... <tims_n...@yahoo.co.uk> remarked:
>When I was collecting "points" they racked up the "fees and charges" that
>you had to pay to use them, to the point where it was cheaper to just pay
>the full fare with an LCC.
>
>I can see that if you collected enough points to buy a long haul ticket this
>doesn't apply, but I never collected that many.
Think of it in percentage terms. Most airlines want 50k points to fly
transatlantic (and some, like Continental, only require you to pay the
statutory taxes, rather than made-up "& charges" and fuel surcharges
etc). It's 8k-10k miles to a typical USA destination, so on that basis
you'd get every sixth flight 'free'. Assuming all sorts of other things
like 1x miles, and not being too picky when you fly (which can double
the charge). Some carriers even have "sales", if you are even less picky
where and when you want to fly.
For a legal aspect to this posting: I once had to cancel a flight for
medical reasons, and the travel insurance would only pay out the *cash*
I'd expended, whereas the "miles" were junk. If insurance is supposed to
fully compensate you, shouldn't they either give you back the miles too
(I can see that the logistics of that might be difficult), or
alternatively enough money to *buy* a replacement ticket?
--
Roland Perry
Robbie
Every council reduces CT by the amount of CTB. It's a rebate but the
same system doesn't work for rent allowances paid under Housing Benefit.
A council will do the same as CT for rent under a Rent Rebate scheme
paid to council tenants under the Housing Benefit scheme (i.e. reduce
the rent to an amount after the rebate is applied). For Rent Allowances,
HB is paid to an account, if the person has a bank or Post Office account.
Usenet Nutter
I understand .In this case I don't think we know if the OP is a
Council Tenant or Private Tenant . I'm still sure the reason they want
the bank statements will be to see if there are any undisclosed
regular payments of an income going in to the account as well as to
check the balance .
Jan Hyde
Sat, 09 Jan 2010 02:05:24 +0000 bearing the following fruit:
>On Fri, 08 Jan 2010 13:15:20 +0000, Jan Hyde
><Jan...@REMOVE.ME.mvps.org> wrote:
>
>>"Foggy Dewhurst" <Foggy.D...@nospamhere.com>'s wild
>>thoughts were released on Thu, 07 Jan 2010 21:05:31 +0000
>>bearing the following fruit:
>>
>>>What is my legal position on this scenario?
>>>
>>>My local council wants me to send them original statements of the last
>>>two months transactions of all my bank accounts. This is because I am an
>>>OAP on State Pension, claiming Housing Benefit and Council Tax Benefit.
>>>
>>>I have no problem per se giving them a bank statement, I only have my
>>>Post Office account to draw my Pension but this will show my account
>>>number and sort code.
>>>
>>>I am not happy that the council will have my account number. Can I
>>>legally black out these details? Quite frankly I don't trust anyone with
>>>my actual account number, sort code etc particularly my local council,
>>>who have in the past sold my telephone number to a third party without
>>>my consent.
>>>
>>>Any advice please?
>>
>>Interesting. I haven't had bank statements for a couple of
>>years now and suspect it will become increasing rare.
>
>That's very surprising. You should have a means of telling what your
>bank has done with your money.
I do, it's all online. But a printout can be altered easily
and wouldn't be sufficient evidence in the OPs case.
J
>AAMOF my accountant has just asked me for my statements for my
>business account from August 2008 to July 2009. I can't get them
>directly online, but my bank will allow me to download monthly
>statements (as .csv files, all with the same file name), so I can
>contruct a spreadsheet for the period.
>
>Your bank cannot refuse to tell you what they've done with your money,
>but they may not always make it easy.
--
Jan Hyde
Roland Perry
Tue, 12 Jan 2010, Jan Hyde <Jan...@REMOVE.ME.mvps.org> remarked:
>>>I haven't had bank statements for a couple of
>>>years now and suspect it will become increasing rare.
>>
>>That's very surprising. You should have a means of telling what your
>>bank has done with your money.
>
>I do, it's all online. But a printout can be altered easily
>and wouldn't be sufficient evidence in the OPs case.
Is that because you know that the council in question (or maybe a wider
range of such evidence-requesting bodies) will routinely refuse to
accept printouts from online banking? It must be a quite widespread
inconvenience if that's the case.
(Bank statements are quite hard to falsify, because they need to
continue to add up. You can't just delete lines here and there, you have
to correct the running totals as well. If the objective is to hide
income, then you might also have to explain why the account is running
into such deficit, unless you also delete some of the expenditure.
--
Roland Perry
Ste
>
> (Bank statements are quite hard to falsify, because they need to
> continue to add up. You can't just delete lines here and there, you have
> to correct the running totals as well. If the objective is to hide
> income, then you might also have to explain why the account is running
> into such deficit, unless you also delete some of the expenditure.
You've got to be very careful indeed. In practice, if the aim is to
delete a certain transaction, then you can just make the same addition
to/deduction from all existing running totals. For more complex
changes, it is probably easier to simply start by deciding which
transactions you want included, and then go through recalculating the
running total from scratch. Of course, that is all in addition to the
complex colours, formatting and layouts that are often typical of bank
statements. Then there is the printing. Inkjets tend to produce
obvious forgeries, most people don't have an offset press at home, but
you can get high quality prints from a modest colour laser, and it
will also reproduce the screen effect on complex graphics - and the
untrained eye probably won't discern between ink and toner.
Jan Hyde
released on Tue, 12 Jan 2010 13:35:08 +0000 bearing the
following fruit:
>In message <05tok59k3t6ffqfpc...@4ax.com>, at 13:15:12 on
>Tue, 12 Jan 2010, Jan Hyde <Jan...@REMOVE.ME.mvps.org> remarked:
>>>>I haven't had bank statements for a couple of
>>>>years now and suspect it will become increasing rare.
>>>
>>>That's very surprising. You should have a means of telling what your
>>>bank has done with your money.
>>
>>I do, it's all online. But a printout can be altered easily
>>and wouldn't be sufficient evidence in the OPs case.
>
>Is that because you know that the council in question (or maybe a wider
>range of such evidence-requesting bodies) will routinely refuse to
>accept printouts from online banking? It must be a quite widespread
>inconvenience if that's the case.
I know a lot of people who work in the area. Suprisingly (or
not) people do amend their bank statements to hide their
funds and often not particularly well.
>(Bank statements are quite hard to falsify, because they need to
>continue to add up. You can't just delete lines here and there, you have
>to correct the running totals as well. If the objective is to hide
>income, then you might also have to explain why the account is running
>into such deficit, unless you also delete some of the expenditure.
If your aim is to claim benefits then it likely you are
claiming to have zero savings or other income. When I was
unemployed my bank balance was zero for a number of years.
However, as we've seen in the media there are those that
have significant funds who claim benefits to which they are
not entitled.
--
Jan Hyde
tim....
"Ste" <ste_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9d0b13a0-1a18-4aa1...@a15g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
> On 12 Jan, 13:35, Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> (Bank statements are quite hard to falsify, because they need to
>> continue to add up. You can't just delete lines here and there, you have
>> to correct the running totals as well. If the objective is to hide
>> income, then you might also have to explain why the account is running
>> into such deficit, unless you also delete some of the expenditure.
>
> You've got to be very careful indeed. In practice, if the aim is to
> delete a certain transaction, then you can just make the same addition
> to/deduction from all existing running totals. For more complex
> changes, it is probably easier to simply start by deciding which
> transactions you want included, and then go through recalculating the
> running total from scratch. Of course, that is all in addition to the
> complex colours, formatting and layouts that are often typical of bank
I don't have a colour printer
I fail to see why that should forbid me for using a self printed statement,
if they are otherwise acceptable
tim
Neil Williams
> I fail to see why that should forbid me for using a self printed statement,
> if they are otherwise acceptable
I have heard of this quite a lot, particularly where they are being
used as ID. Fortunately, many banks will (for a charge) produce a
proper one.
Neil
Iain
news:n7bpk5ln2mj94cln8...@4ax.com...
> I know a lot of people who work in the area. Suprisingly (or
> not) people do amend their bank statements to hide their
> funds and often not particularly well.
>
>>(Bank statements are quite hard to falsify, because they need to
>>continue to add up. You can't just delete lines here and there, you have
>>to correct the running totals as well. If the objective is to hide
>>income, then you might also have to explain why the account is running
>>into such deficit, unless you also delete some of the expenditure.
>
> If your aim is to claim benefits then it likely you are
> claiming to have zero savings or other income. When I was
> unemployed my bank balance was zero for a number of years.
>
> However, as we've seen in the media there are those that
> have significant funds who claim benefits to which they are
> not entitled.
An interesting slant you are putting on things - and not the ideal sort of
thing to suggest or detail in a legal newsgroup.
Two points from this:
1. As far as I am aware, people can still claim maximum benefits with up to
�6000 of savings;
2. There is various prevention of fraud legislation anyway which permits
local authorities, and others, to obtain things like financial information
without the subjects permission.
So to try and bluff this is simply not worth it, especially if anything has
to be followed up.
IANAL
Iain
Roland Perry
>>>and wouldn't be sufficient evidence in the OPs case.
>>
>>Is that because you know that the council in question (or maybe a wider
>>range of such evidence-requesting bodies) will routinely refuse to
>>accept printouts from online banking? It must be a quite widespread
>>inconvenience if that's the case.
>
>I know a lot of people who work in the area. Suprisingly (or
>not) people do amend their bank statements to hide their
>funds and often not particularly well.
>
>>(Bank statements are quite hard to falsify, because they need to
>>continue to add up. You can't just delete lines here and there, you have
>>to correct the running totals as well. If the objective is to hide
>>income, then you might also have to explain why the account is running
>>into such deficit, unless you also delete some of the expenditure.
>
>If your aim is to claim benefits then it likely you are
>claiming to have zero savings or other income. When I was
>unemployed my bank balance was zero for a number of years.
>
>However, as we've seen in the media there are those that
>have significant funds who claim benefits to which they are
>not entitled.
Which is all very interesting commentary, but doesn't either confirm or
deny that the council in question will refuse an online banking
statement :(
Nor suggest what people are supposed to do if it is indeed the case.
--
Roland Perry
alan.holmes
"Foggy Dewhurst" <Foggy.D...@nospamhere.com> wrote in message
news:hi5i4j$oi$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
> What is my legal position on this scenario?
>
> My local council wants me to send them original statements of the last two
> months transactions of all my bank accounts. This is because I am an OAP
> on State Pension, claiming Housing Benefit and Council Tax Benefit.
>
> I have no problem per se giving them a bank statement, I only have my Post
> Office account to draw my Pension but this will show my account number and
> sort code.
>
> I am not happy that the council will have my account number. Can I legally
> black out these details? Quite frankly I don't trust anyone with my actual
> account number, sort code etc particularly my local council, who have in
> the past sold my telephone number to a third party without my consent.
>
> Any advice please?
Give them the details then open another account and put most of your money
into that one!
>