Illegal but never prosecuted? Towing liimts for trailers.

[David]

Please bear with me; this gets head achingly complicated.

There are rules about what you can legally tow in the UK.

The basic rules (assuming you have a valid licence) are that you can't
load the towing vehicle over the GVW (Gross Vehicle Weight), you can't
load the towed vehicle over the MAM (Maximum Authorised Mass) and the
combination of towing and towed vehicle cannot exceed the MTW (Maximum
Train Weight) for the towing vehicle. The TC (Towing Capacity) must be
equal to or above the MAM of the trailer.

All reasonably straight forward so far, the weights listed above are all
in the vehicle/trailer documentation. There is some question over having a
combination where the GVW + MAM are above the MTW but the vehicles are
loaded below the MTW.

There is, of course, an added complication. If towing a caravan the body
length (excluding A frame) should be 7 metres or less for any towing
vehicle up to 3,500 kg GVW.

This is a speciality of the UK, though. In Europe in general (as far as I
can establish) towing caravans over 7m in body length is fine. This
explains why Hobby, Tabert and Fendt (for example) manufacture caravans
with a body length over 7 metres.

As far as I know it is (arguably) legal to tow with a combination which is
legal in your home country. So, for example, a German caravanner could
visit the UK and legally tow a combination which is illegal for a UK
national in the UK.

Getting towards the end now; we went and had a look at some German
caravans. Unsurprisingly the main market for these large caravans is the
traveller community and the dealer was obviously closely tied to
Travellers.

We asked about the "over 7m" problem and were assured that the dealer was
regularly stopped and questioned by the Police (we suspect because they
were Travellers, not because of the size of the outfit) and has never had
a problem with body length over 7 metres.

The combination of a Nissan Navarra (GVW 3,500 kg, MTW 6,000 kg, TC 3,500
kg) can comfortable handle a caravan with a MAM of around 2,200 kg.

However a vehicle of GVW of 3,500 kg cannot legally tow a caravan with a
body length of over 7 metres.

https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car/car-towing-weight-and-width-limits says:

"The maximum trailer width for any towing vehicle is 2.55 metres.

The maximum length for a trailer towed by a vehicle weighing up to 3,500kg
is 7 metres. This length does not include the A-frame."

Possible room for interpretation, but I would assume that this means up to
and including 3,500 kg.

We are assured that these potentially illegal combinations are stopped
regularly by the Police, but then allowed to go on. Accepting that this is
a dealer talking, I am inclined to believe him because otherwise he would
be running commercial vehicles over 3,500 kg GVW as towing vehicles.
Accepting again that the vehicles on the site might just be coincidental.
However that way lies conspiracy theory.

Given all the above, it it likely that the Police are not enforcing the 7
metre rule?

The Internet is not much help; I can't find any links to people being
prosecuted. I can find lots of discussion. I can also find people
admitting they tow potentially illegal combinations without ever being
stopped.

One person claimed to hire a mini bus (which has a GVW of over 3,500 kg)
to move the caravan between summer and winter quarters.

Does anyone have any knowledge in this area?

The ticklish bit presumably would be informing insurance companies that
you were towing a caravan over 7 metre body length with a vehicle with
3,500 kg GVW.

As I said, head achingly complicated.

Cheers


Dave R

P.S. the intention is to tow the caravan on the continent for long breaks
near the Med plus some touring in the UK.

TL;DR can I break the law and get away with it if the Police are tacitly
ignoring it?

--
Windows 8.1 on PCSpecialist box

[Brian Reay]

The authorities do random checks on caravans and motorhomes. I've never
been stopped but I've seen others 'pulled over' (I live in Kent, near
the route to France)

Also, if you have an accident, even if it isn't related to the load,
expect it to be checked, even if only be the insurance company.

The chances of being stopped by the 'average' policeman and done is
probably minimal, that doesn't mean I'm suggesting you should do it,
quite the converse.

[Nightjar]

On 30-Sep-16 6:19 PM, David wrote:
<long explanation snipped>

> P.S. the intention is to tow the caravan on the continent for long breaks
> near the Med plus some touring in the UK.
>
> TL;DR can I break the law and get away with it if the Police are tacitly
> ignoring it?

I think you should probably worry more about your insurance. I don't
expect many insurers to accept liability if you are towing an illegal
load. Also, failure to disclose material information to your insurers,
such as the fact that you intend knowingly to tow an illegal load, is
grounds for your insurance to be declared void and, if they became aware
of it, that could be applied even if you have an accident when you are
not towing.

I suggest that, if you are set on buying a caravan that is legal on the
continent, but not in Britain, you should keep it abroad and pick it up
there.

--
--

Colin Bignell

[Broadback]

Surely in the event of an accident your insurers would not pay out. also
do not forget that most, if not all,insurers require you to inform them
if you intend towing.

[David L. Martel]

DaviD,

You are wise to not accept the advice of the trailer dealer. Ask your
insurer for advice on what you may tow that they will insure. Perhaps ask 2
insurance companies. Get their answers in writing.

Good luck,
Dave M.

[Harry Bloomfield]

David L. Martel laid this down on his screen :

Insurers only want to know whether or not you have a tow bracket fitted
or not(a modification), I have never be charged any extra premium, nor
been asked what I might be towing. Their assumption will be that what
you are towing is legal to be towed by the vehicle and in the UK.

I do see some Hobbies being towed, but suspect many are illegally towed
in the UK.

[David]

Thanks to all so far; please note that I don't think that I suggested not
informing insurance companies.

That would be foolish.

If, of course, no insurer would accept the risk then that is a stopper in
itself.

However I am under the impression from caravanning fora that some people
have successfully insured their outfits where the caravan body has been
declared at over 7 metres (or at least the make and model of caravan has
been declared).

The thing that is mainly exercising my mind is the concept of a fairly
arcane regulation which is tacitly ignored by the Police.

Cheers


Dave R

[David]

Sigh; memory of a goldfish etc.

One final interesting(?) complication; although you can't tow a caravan
with a body of over 7 metres, you can tow a longer "undivided load" such
as a boat on a trailer.

Is it just me, or is this an example of where the law may just possibly be
an ass?

A quick search shows that a coxed eight has an average length of 19.9
metres. I think these may break down into two for transport, but to be
under 7 metres they would have to be broken into three.

Glider trailers can be 9 metres or more.

https://members.gliding.co.uk/library/bga-requirements-guidance/trailer-
guidance/

"In July 2012, the governments VOSA clarified the situation for the BGA,
noting why glider trailers exceeding 7 metres in length can be towed by
private cars and vans.

A glider wing or fuselage is considered to be an indivisible load if it
cannot practically be divided into two or more sections.

A table in Regulation 7 of the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use)
Regulations 1986, as amended, contains the details of the maximum length
permitted for various sorts of vehicle and trailer combinations.

Item 9 of that table does normally restrict a trailer towed by a vehicle
which is not a goods vehicle over 3500 kg GVW to a maximum length of 7m
not including the towing hitch arrangements.

However regulation 7 (3A) (a) dis-applies the requirements of that table
in a number of areas including where a trailer is constructed and normally
used for the conveyance of "indivisible loads of exceptional length".

In this context "exceptional length" means longer than the regulations
would normally permit.

This exception would permit a trailer of perhaps 11m length specially
constructed to carry indivisible loads such as a glider to be towed by a
car or other vehicle which is not a goods vehicle over 3500 kg GVW.

Note however that Regulation 7 (5) (b) still limits the length of

(i) the towing vehicle to a maximum of 9.2m; and

(ii) the length of the towing vehicle and trailer combination to a maximum
of 25.9m unless special police notification, escorting and attendant
requirements are complied with."

I do note that this is the first time that I have encountered the wording
"a vehicle which is not a goods vehicle over 3500 kg GVW" which is much
clearer than "up to 3,500 kg GVW".

So what is special about caravans (apart from, perhaps, making life harder
for the travelling community)?


Cheers


Dave R

[polygonum]

On 01/10/2016 21:51, David wrote:
> So what is special about caravans (apart from, perhaps, making life harder
> for the travelling community)?

Isn't it indivisible loads that are special? Caravans seem to treated
equally with any other trailed units that are not indivisible.

--
Rod

[Brian Reay]

Have you checked the rules for towing a 7m caravan in Europe? I don't
claim to know them (I'm a motorhomer not a caravaner) but 7m seems
rather large to tow, our motorhome is over 6m so I've a concept of the
scale the problem. When we tow our trailer (we take a two seater car),
we are over 11m and you would probably be even longer. It can be
'interesting' on the French back roads. Don't forget, some towns in
France have restrictions on towing caravans, BTW. Oddly, not motorhomes
with trailers! We were 'waived through' by a policemen in one town while
a caravaner was diverted.

Of course, another option, if it is legal in Europe, is to store the
caravan in France. We met s number of English people who leave their
caravans on French sites and either always holiday there or pick them up
to tour.

[Neil Williams]

On 2016-10-01 09:20:45 +0000, Broadback said:

> Surely in the event of an accident your insurers would not pay out.

On the comprehensive part of the policy. They must pay out on the
legal minimum third party aspect, though they can then sue you for the
payout if they wish.

> also do not forget that most, if not all,insurers require you to inform
> them if you intend towing.

More that you inform them that you have a towbar (as a modification to
the vehicle), whether you intend towing or not. It will be assumed
that if you have a towbar you will at some point tow.

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.

[The Other Mike]

On 30 Sep 2016 17:19:04 GMT, David <wib...@btintenet.com> wrote:

>The combination of a Nissan Navarra (GVW 3,500 kg, MTW 6,000 kg, TC 3,500
>kg) can comfortable handle a caravan with a MAM of around 2,200 kg.

On paper it may be capable but the Nissan Navara (D40 produced circa 2006-2010)
has a very significant and ongoing chassis corrosion / cracking problem that
suggests extreme caution before towing, carrying axle loads even well within the
manufacturers posted limits or any use at all.

If not spotted in time such as at an MOT the corrosion and cracking may result
in catastrophic failure in service.

Strangely for such a serious defect there appears to be no formal recall in the
UK but Nissan are apparently buying and scrapping vehicles in a number of
markets worldwide.
--