Smart meters surge pricing

[notya...@gmail.com]

Well who didn't see this coming?

OTOH will those who have been beguiled or buffaloed into getting a smart meter have any prospect of a claim for misrepresentation when instead of lower bills they actually get higher ones?

[Andy Burns]

notya...@gmail.com wrote:

> Well who didn't see this coming?

Does it require signing-up to a "surge price" tariff?

[newshound]

I'm sure it does. Plenty of industrial users sign up for almost the
equivalent, and for very good reasons.

[Omega]

On 16/02/2022 19:29, notya...@gmail.com wrote:
> Well who didn't see this coming?
>
> OTOH will those who have been beguiled or buffaloed into getting a smart meter have any prospect of a claim for misrepresentation when instead of lower bills they actually get higher ones?

I have personally found it all very depressing while millions of
electricity users rushed to have a smart meter, believing in some magic,
that would save them hundreds of pounds in bills. *The* only way to
save on electricity bills is to switch it off when not needed! There is
no magic technology yet that will reduce your bill!

Amps X volts = watts!

The inability to understand ones bill in many cases is because so many
amongst us haven't a clue as to what a watt is or the common unit used
for electricity bills, the Kw/hour (1,000 watts an hour).

For example, if one was to boil a 3 K/w kettle for a minute and a half
to make tea for two, the power needed to boil that water would fire up
600 5w LED lamps for that minute and a half! Typically a 5w LED would
give your room, mood lighting, while you watch TV and certainly give you
enough light to work the TV controller.

Simple sums yet millions have been brainwashed into believing their
smart meter will save them. Maybe it's because the smart meters were
offered "free"? And on that point, that is where I get really
depressed! Free? There is no such thing! The power companies paid for
these trick boxes out of revenue gathered from *all* their customers. I
helped pay for your smart meter because you thought you were about to
make a fortune! You didn't and you won't but I'm out of pocket funding
your fickle recklessness!

omega

[The Todal]

On 17/02/2022 09:27, Omega wrote:
> On 16/02/2022 19:29, notya...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Well who didn't see this coming?
>>
>> OTOH will those who have been beguiled or buffaloed into getting a
>> smart meter have any prospect of a claim for misrepresentation when
>> instead of lower bills they actually get higher ones?
>
>
>
> I have personally found it all very depressing while millions of
> electricity users rushed to have a smart meter, believing in some magic,
> that would save them hundreds of pounds in bills.  *The* only way to
> save on electricity bills is to switch it off when not needed!  There is
> no magic technology yet that will reduce your bill!

I agree with you, of course. In the public mind, smart meters are often
conflated with the "in-home display" which tells you how much energy you
are currently using.

But there is nothing very helpful about an in-home display. Your
consumption of electricity is shown to increase when you use a kettle or
an electric radiator or a hair dryer or an electric shower. You can't
turn these things off without losing the benefit they are providing to
you at that time.

I managed to lose my in-home display - I put it away somewhere safe
because it was no use to me, but then couldn't find it again. I
requested another one and Octopus tell me they are inundated with
requests for new in-home displays but I'll be put on the waiting list.

[Andy Burns]

Omega wrote:

> I have personally found it all very depressing while millions of electricity
> users rushed to have a smart meter, believing in some magic, that would save
> them hundreds of pounds in bills.

I agreed to one just to save me having to be at home for the meter-reader
visits. It's no longer smart, but it does allow to read the meters without
going into the garage or under the stairs

> *The* only way to save on electricity bills is
> to switch it off when not needed!  There is no magic technology yet that will
> reduce your bill!

If you're looking for what to turn off, then the in-house display can help you
with that, it's a short-lived novelty though, it might even be
counter-productive once people realise that a 6W LED costs 1/7th of a penny per
hour to run, even at present rates.

[Andy Burns]

The Todal wrote:

> I managed to lose my in-home display

And there was me thinking that this company had to "invent" people who (per
their radio adverts) had "lost" the IHD, as an excuse to get their mits on your
consumption data ...

<https://hugoenergyapp.co.uk>

[David McNeish]

On Wednesday, 16 February 2022 at 23:22:02 UTC, notya...@gmail.com wrote:
> Well who didn't see this coming?
>
> OTOH will those who have been beguiled or buffaloed into getting a smart meter have any prospect of a claim for misrepresentation when instead of lower bills they actually get higher ones?

Is it any different in principle from the off-peak tariffs which have
been around for decades? Just a more flexible version.

[Martin Brown]

On 17/02/2022 09:27, Omega wrote:

> On 16/02/2022 19:29, notya...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Well who didn't see this coming?
>>
>> OTOH will those who have been beguiled or buffaloed into getting a
>> smart meter have any prospect of a claim for misrepresentation when
>> instead of lower bills they actually get higher ones?
>
> I have personally found it all very depressing while millions of
> electricity users rushed to have a smart meter, believing in some magic,
> that would save them hundreds of pounds in bills.  *The* only way to
> save on electricity bills is to switch it off when not needed!  There is
> no magic technology yet that will reduce your bill!
>
> Amps X volts = watts!
>
> The inability to understand ones bill in many cases is because so many
> amongst us haven't a clue as to what a watt is or the common unit used
> for electricity bills, the Kw/hour  (1,000 watts an hour).

Electricity bills from my previous supplier were absolutely opaque and
undecipherable by design. Likewise all of their tariffs are damn near
impossible to obtain without going through a switching site these days.

One that I hadn't fully appreciated which came out on You and Yours at
lunchtime a couple of days ago is that people on these supersmart
tariffs get a price related to the commercial wholesale spot price by
the half hour which has rocketed up in recent times (no price cap
protection). The same bind also affects CHP district heating schemes
with central gas boilers. In normal times that would be cheaper...

People who can are abandonning them.

> For example, if one was to boil a 3 K/w kettle for a minute and a half
> to make tea for two, the power needed to boil that water would fire up
> 600 5w LED lamps for that minute and a half!  Typically a 5w LED would
> give your room, mood lighting, while you watch TV and certainly give you
> enough light to work the TV controller.

TVs can represent quite a big chunk of the load but electric space
heating, hot water and cooking are the biggest items.

> Simple sums yet millions have been brainwashed into believing their
> smart meter will save them.  Maybe it's because the smart meters were
> offered "free"?  And on that point, that is where I get really
> depressed!  Free?  There is no such thing!  The power companies paid for
> these trick boxes out of revenue gathered from *all* their customers.  I
> helped pay for your smart meter because you thought you were about to
> make a fortune!  You didn't and you won't but I'm out of pocket funding
> your fickle recklessness!

If you haven't had real time feedback of consumption then a smart meter
might well save you about 10% iff you are curious about why the 24/7
base load is high and go and investigate where it is going. The meter
isn't magic but it does make consumption a lot more visible to the user
and that is a good thing. You don't have to have a smart meter installed
though - some "green" tariffs came with a free Owl monitor in the past.

The most serious one I found was that the oldish TV was running its main
power supply and digital tuner continuously even when in standby. There
was a well hidden menu setting to disable this - a throwback to when
digital was new so that the linked video recorder (analogue tuner only)
could record TDTV programmes from the same brand TV tuner.

I'm about to have my antediluvian counter rotating clockwork dials
electricity meter replaced with a smart meter (it has actually clocked
back to zero). It should be fun! No mobile signal where the meter is
installed and its location is 12' up in the air (overhead mains) in a
rather tight corner. I won't ever be pressing its little buttons...

Our VH one lasted all of two months before comms failed forever. Guy who
installed it (at the start of lockdown) did a nice neat job though.
(not his fault there is no mobile signal indoors round here)

Meter reading remains a joke. It is typically the same guy in a small
van visiting on different days but with a different hat on working for
different companies. Most meters here even if smart have lost contact
with their base.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Max Demian]

That fancy app doesn't enable you to tell the consumption of individual
appliances, or the average consumption of your (e.g.) fridge freezer, or
the total consumption of your cooker so you can decide whether to cook a
stew on the hob or in the oven.

Otherwise you might as well just look at the spinning disc of the old
type meter as say, "Ooh! It's spinning really fast! I'd better switch
something off!"

--
Max Demian

[Roland Perry]

In message <e9e84fce-2733-44fc...@googlegroups.com>, at
02:44:02 on Thu, 17 Feb 2022, David McNeish <davi...@gmail.com>
remarked:

Yes, very different. The off-pea (aka Economy 7) tariffs were designed
to soak up base load and charge up last-century storage radiators.

What almost no consumers realise is that unless a third of your
household consumption is during those 7/24hrs (and simply putting a
timer on your dishwasher isn't going to cut it) you'll pay less on a
24/24 tariff.
--
Roland Perry

[The Todal]

On 17/02/2022 11:03, Andy Burns wrote:

Thanks for the tip. I've downloaded the app now. Hope there isn't any
catch and no hidden charges for using it.

[Andy Burns]

The Todal wrote:

> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> <https://hugoenergyapp.co.uk>
>
> Thanks for the tip. I've downloaded the app now. Hope there isn't any catch and
> no hidden charges for using it.

No doubt it only gets 1/2 hourly data (and even then, maybe with a delay) unlike
the live data that an IHD gets?

I suppose the 'price' is them getting your data and maybe hassling you to change
supplier?

[Harry Bloomfield Esq]

Andy Burns wrote :

> No doubt it only gets 1/2 hourly data (and even then, maybe with a delay)
> unlike the live data that an IHD gets?
>
> I suppose the 'price' is them getting your data and maybe hassling you to
> change supplier?

It only works, if your Smart Meter actually works as a Smart Meter - it
doesn't work with a Smart Meter which doesn't work as a Smart,
auto-feeding it's data to your supplier. Those cases where you have
swapped suppliers since getting changed to Smart Meters.

[Harry Bloomfield Esq]

Martin Brown explained :

> If you haven't had real time feedback of consumption then a smart meter might
> well save you about 10% iff you are curious about why the 24/7 base load is
> high and go and investigate where it is going. The meter isn't magic but it
> does make consumption a lot more visible to the user and that is a good
> thing. You don't have to have a smart meter installed though - some "green"
> tariffs came with a free Owl monitor in the past.

+1

[Theo]

There's also the Bright app from these people:
https://shop.glowmarkt.com/
Privacy policy:
https://www.hildebrand.co.uk/privacy-policy/

(not advertised on the radio, which I think is a plus?)

They have API access, so I get live half hourly stats into Home Assistant
via
https://github.com/HandyHat/ha-hildebrandglow-dcc
which is handy. I don't own one of their hardware devices.

Theo

[John]

On 17/02/2022 11:03, Andy Burns wrote:

Our IHD displays the electric but not the gas. Downloaded the app and I
can get the electric consumption but not the gas. Both are smart meters.

[Andy Burns]

John wrote:

> Our IHD displays the electric but not the gas.  Downloaded the app and I can get
> the electric consumption but not the gas.  Both are smart meters.

Sounds like the gas meter has lost contact with the electric meter, it should
have a 10 year D-cell (changeable by them, not you) what gas readings get used
on your bills? Does the MPAN number match?

[Pancho]

Readings do go via the electricity meter, however my smart gas meter
reports and my smart electricity meter doesn't. So it seems other things
can go wrong.

I have been getting estimated (or manually reported) electricity bills
for over a year.

[Roland Perry]

In message <suob2e$9r3$1...@dont-email.me>, at 14:39:10 on Fri, 18 Feb
2022, Pancho <Pancho.Do...@outlook.com> remarked:

>>> Our IHD displays the electric but not the gas.  Downloaded the app
>>>and I can get the electric consumption but not the gas.  Both are
>>>smart meters.

>> Sounds like the gas meter has lost contact with the electric meter,
>>it should have a 10 year D-cell (changeable by them, not you) what
>>gas readings get used on your bills?  Does the MPAN number match?
>
>Readings do go via the electricity meter, however my smart gas meter
>reports and my smart electricity meter doesn't. So it seems other
>things can go wrong.

I have a friend with exactly the same issue. He's currently locked in
battle with the energy company who rashly promised it would work.
--
Roland Perry

[Andy Burns]

Pancho wrote:

> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> John wrote:
>>
>>> Our IHD displays the electric but not the gas.  Downloaded the app and I can
>>> get the electric consumption but not the gas.  Both are smart meters.
>>
>> Sounds like the gas meter has lost contact with the electric meter
>

> Readings do go via the electricity meter, however my smart gas meter reports and
> my smart electricity meter doesn't. So it seems other things can go wrong.

I think the Hugo people are lining themselves up for issues like this, one of
their claims is that the app will work if the IHD has stopped working, I doubt
many users will be able to distinguish IHD problems from smarttmeter problems.

[Martin Brown]

ET phone home fails quite often if indoor mobile reception is marginal.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Nasti Chestikov]

On Thursday, 17 February 2022 at 10:12:28 UTC, Omega wrote:
>
> I have personally found it all very depressing while millions of
> electricity users rushed to have a smart meter, believing in some magic,
> that would save them hundreds of pounds in bills. *The* only way to
> save on electricity bills is to switch it off when not needed! There is
> no magic technology yet that will reduce your bill!
>

> omega

Your depression surprises me.

Take weight loss, a multi billion dollar industry which millions subscribe heavily to; Weight Watchers, Slimming World, The Atkins Diet, The 5-2 Diet.....you name it, people suck it up.

And yet if they simply ensured that calories in were less than calories out, they'd lose weight.

Easy innit?

[Andy Burns]

Martin Brown wrote:

> ET phone home fails quite often if indoor mobile reception is marginal.

But that ought to affect both gas and electric.

[Omega]

You missed out gymnasium membership. Fuck me, people going for a walk
on a machine *and* paying for it and even pay the guy beside them
because he is their 'personal trainer' explaining all the way, how to
walk for best results.

As you say, they really do suck it up!

omega

[Pancho]

On 18/02/2022 16:44, Andy Burns wrote:

>> Readings do go via the electricity meter, however my smart gas meter
>> reports and my smart electricity meter doesn't. So it seems other
>> things can go wrong.
>
> I think the Hugo people are lining themselves up for issues like this,
> one of their claims is that the app will work if the IHD has stopped
> working, I doubt many users will be able to distinguish IHD problems
> from smarttmeter problems.
>

It is pretty clearly more than just the IHD wrong, when you get
estimated bills.

I never really saw the point of an IHD, web reporting should be enough.

There comes a point when it would be better to provide everyone with a
general purpose web browsing tool (tablet or pc), rather than insist on
single purpose tat like an IHD for everyone, just because of a few who
do not have access to the internet.

[Max Demian]

On 18/02/2022 16:24, Nasti Chestikov wrote:

5:2 *is* calories in < calories out in essence.

(For some reason, people don't compensate for calories lost on the
fasting days on the feeding days. And you're only hungry/miserable for
2/7 of the days. If you "count calories" on all the days you're always
miserable.)

--
Max Demian

[Theo]

Pancho <Pancho.Do...@outlook.com> wrote:
> I never really saw the point of an IHD, web reporting should be enough.
>
> There comes a point when it would be better to provide everyone with a
> general purpose web browsing tool (tablet or pc), rather than insist on
> single purpose tat like an IHD for everyone, just because of a few who
> do not have access to the internet.

The idea is the IHD reports live data on a screen in front of your face.
Reporting half hourly aggregate data with a time lag to a web site you don't
look at doesn't do the same job - you can't see the difference in
consumption between turning an appliance on and off because it's all bundled
up in a half hourly lump, and your meter may not immediately transmit its
half hourly chunks (mine does mostly, but not always). The network doesn't
have the bandwidth for everyone's meter to be sending readings every 10
seconds, which is the IHD update rate.

There's an argument that a local connection to the meter would give you
realtime data without the separate screen, and could plug into other smart
home systems. The metering platform is fairly locked down for security
purposes so they won't allow it on your wifi etc, but there are devices that
allow access which have presumably been through the audit process. (The
Hildebrand devices just report data to *their* cloud, rather than via the
DCC, so it's not actually fully local. I'm not sure if any are.)

But that's still somewhere you have to actively check, while the IHD gives
you usage information on a dedicated screen. That is useful for energy
efficiency (although somewhat limited given whole-house metering) but it's
also useful for people who need to keep a close eye on their spend.

Theo

[Mark Goodge]

On 20 Feb 2022 12:02:27 +0000 (GMT), Theo

<theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>
>There's an argument that a local connection to the meter would give you
>realtime data without the separate screen, and could plug into other smart
>home systems. The metering platform is fairly locked down for security
>purposes so they won't allow it on your wifi etc, but there are devices that
>allow access which have presumably been through the audit process. (The
>Hildebrand devices just report data to *their* cloud, rather than via the
>DCC, so it's not actually fully local. I'm not sure if any are.)

It's not locked down for security purposes. It's locked down for
marketing purposes. Some countries mandate that a smart meter must have
a local access port, and there's even a standard for it (so-called "P1"
and "S1" ports) so that any manufacturer can make hardware and software
which reads it. There are plenty of web pages describing how hobbyists
have rolled their own with an appropriate cable and a Raspberry Pi. But,
of course, the value to the energy suppliers of locking in access to
that data means that, in the UK, where there is no such regulatory
requirement, none of them will permit it without forcing the
manufacturers of third-party devices to jump through all sorts of hoops.

There are good security reasons not to allow control access to a smart
meter other than via approved systems - the P1/S1 specification only
allows read access to the data - but there are no security implications
in allowing wired access to a meter via a cable that reports the data
locally to a PC or other device.

>But that's still somewhere you have to actively check, while the IHD gives
>you usage information on a dedicated screen. That is useful for energy
>efficiency (although somewhat limited given whole-house metering) but it's
>also useful for people who need to keep a close eye on their spend.

The main benefit of getting the data in real time to a PC is that you
can analyse historic data, for example to correlate energy usage with
external temperatures to see how much the weather affects your heating
bills. Or, you can use a third party device which connects to the port
and transmits the data to its own smartphone app which gives you much
more granularity than the energy supplier's web display but is more
convenient than a standalone IHD. Here, for example, is one that's
available in the Netherlands which uses the P1 port:

https://www.homewizard.nl/p1-meter

Mark

[Martin Brown]

On 17/02/2022 11:06, Martin Brown wrote:

> I'm about to have my antediluvian counter rotating clockwork dials
> electricity meter replaced with a smart meter (it has actually clocked
> back to zero). It should be fun! No mobile signal where the meter is
> installed and its location is 12' up in the air (overhead mains) in a
> rather tight corner. I won't ever be pressing its little buttons...

Well that was an anticlimax!

The result of installation was a no show. About an hour before the end
of the allocated time slot 1000-1400 engineer rings me to say he is on
his way and about 45 minutes distant. Twenty minutes later their office
rings to say he has been diverted away from my job to an "emergency".

Not surprisingly I made my displeasure with these cowboys very clear.

Now rescheduled for the end of the month. I have been promised that this
time it will happen without fail. Time will tell.

I don't envy the field engineers though since every one round here will
be an install from hell with the wiring up being trivial compared to
getting the sender to register with a base station and function.

Mobile phone not spots and smart meters do not get on.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Andy Burns]

Martin Brown wrote:

> Mobile phone not spots and smart meters do not get on.

I have a feeling you're "oop north" but no idea how far oop.

Might your smart meter be destined for the Arqiva network instead of O2/Telefonica?

[Roland Perry]

In message <t0cmb9$18me$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, at 11:10:25 on Thu, 10 Mar
2022, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> remarked:

I thought there was a second (not GSM) network available for such
circumstances.
--
Roland Perry

[Martin Brown]

On 10/03/2022 12:06, Andy Burns wrote:
> Martin Brown wrote:
>
>> Mobile phone not spots and smart meters do not get on.
>
> I have a  feeling you're "oop north" but no idea how far oop.

North Yorkshire - and hilly enough that mobile signals are interesting.
I'm about 200m from a completely dead zone where nothing works at all.
Steep sided valley with a beck at the bottom = no line of sight.

> Might your smart meter be destined for the Arqiva network instead of
> O2/Telefonica?

If it ever gets installed...

If it is meant to be on O2 then they haven't a hope in hell. That is one
network I know has absolutely no coverage at my location even outdoors.

Three is least bad at home. Several times I have had to wonder around
the garden waving my EE phone in the air to get a TFA txt for banking.
(my mobile is too elderly to support Wifi calling - next one won't be)

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Martin Brown]

On 10/03/2022 12:52, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <t0cmb9$18me$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, at 11:10:25 on Thu, 10 Mar
> 2022, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> remarked:
>>

>> I don't envy the field engineers though since every one round here
>> will be an install from hell with the wiring up being trivial compared
>> to getting the sender to register with a base station and function.
>>
>> Mobile phone not spots and smart meters do not get on.
>
> I thought there was a second (not GSM) network available for such
> circumstances.

There might well be in towns! They gave up trying to make the smart
meter in the village hall work over a year ago. Basically it dropped off
their network every few months so in the end they gave up.

Impressive NOT!

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Andy Burns]

Martin Brown wrote:

> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> I have a feeling you're "oop north" but no idea how far oop.
>
> North Yorkshire

So in a yellow Northern Powergrid area?

<https://uploads-eu-west-1.insided.com/ovo-en/attachment/3f8a17e2-5f58-4a8b-8026-22ebb3cd4c9b.jpg>

That's an area where they should use Arqiva's 412MHz network, not mobile

[Roger Hayter]

On 10 Mar 2022 at 16:02:39 GMT, "Martin Brown" <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk>
wrote:

Maybe the next generation of smart meters will use an IP connection (probably
over wifi), now that this is going to be the routine way to provide a landline
phome?


--
Roger Hayter

[Martin Brown]

On 10/03/2022 17:26, Andy Burns wrote:
> Martin Brown wrote:
>
>> Andy Burns wrote:
>>
>>> I have a feeling you're "oop north" but no idea how far oop.
>>
>> North Yorkshire
>
> So in a yellow Northern Powergrid area?

Yes. Oh joy!

>
> <https://uploads-eu-west-1.insided.com/ovo-en/attachment/3f8a17e2-5f58-4a8b-8026-22ebb3cd4c9b.jpg>
>
>
> That's an area where they should use Arqiva's 412MHz network, not mobile

That figures - nothing that Northern Powergrid does is any good.

They can't even maintain their electricity supply network to an adequate
standard as storm Arwen so conclusively proved. Poles fell down in great
chunks because they haven't been checked properly for ages. There are
poles near me still listing at 30 degrees from the vertical not long for
this world. Replace only on failure maximises return for shareholders at
the expense of screwing over customers stuck with a geographic monopoly.

I can choose who I buy my power from (with a declining list of suppliers
who haven't gone bust yet) but I can do nothing at all about the cowboys
who run the domestic power delivery infrastructure in my area.

Not fit for purpose doesn't come close to describing them.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Roland Perry]

In message <t0d7he$4tg$3...@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:03:51 on Thu, 10 Mar

2022, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> remarked:
>On 10/03/2022 12:52, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <t0cmb9$18me$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, at 11:10:25 on Thu, 10 Mar
>>2022, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> remarked:
>>>
>>> I don't envy the field engineers though since every one round here
>>>will be an install from hell with the wiring up being trivial
>>>compared to getting the sender to register with a base station and
>>>function.
>>>
>>> Mobile phone not spots and smart meters do not get on.

>> I thought there was a second (not GSM) network available for such
>>circumstances.
>
>There might well be in towns!

Isn't the alternative network for not-towns?

>They gave up trying to make the smart meter in the village hall work
>over a year ago. Basically it dropped off their network

Which network.

>every few months so in the end they gave up.
>
>Impressive NOT!
>

--

Roland Perry

[Andy Burns]

Roland Perry wrote:

> Isn't the alternative network for not-towns?

The alternative network is for all SMETS2 meters north of a line roughly from
crewe to bridlington

[Roland Perry]

In message <j8vd2t...@mid.individual.net>, at 22:40:29 on Thu, 10
Mar 2022, Andy Burns <use...@andyburns.uk> remarked:

Which contains a lot of Not-towns. Or are you saying that GSM is never
used north of that line?
--
Roland Perry

[Andy Burns]

Roland Perry wrote:

> are you saying that GSM is never used north of that line?

I don't live there, but that's what DCC say, no doubt there are still SMETS1
meters north of the line using GSM, maybe some of them haven't gone dumb by
switching suppliers, the "line" is different on this map

<https://www.smartme.co.uk/images/uk%20wan.png>

compared to the lines on the map showing former REC areas

<https://uploads-eu-west-1.insided.com/ovo-en/attachment/3f8a17e2-5f58-4a8b-8026-22ebb3cd4c9b.jpg>

<https://www.smartme.co.uk/technical.html>

You can search for planning applications by Arqiva for smartmeter base sites,
maybe there's one local to Martin, here's an example application that looks like
it was built.

<https://www.highland.gov.uk/download/meetings/id/68526/item_58_applicant_arqiva_ltd_per_harlequin_group_ltd_1500642ful_pln04515>
<https://gridreferencefinder.com/#gr=NH6956372775|269563_s__c__s_872775|1>

[Martin Brown]

On 11/03/2022 07:56, Andy Burns wrote:
> Roland Perry wrote:
>
>> are you saying that GSM is never used north of that line?
>
> I don't live there, but that's what DCC say, no doubt there are still
> SMETS1 meters north of the line using GSM, maybe some of them haven't
> gone dumb by switching suppliers, the "line" is different on this map
>

> You can search for planning applications by Arqiva for smartmeter base
> sites, maybe there's one local to Martin, here's an example application
> that looks like it was built.

Thanks. It doesn't look very likely that it will work!

There is one about 15 miles from me according to planning info from
2016. However, topography gets in the way. I doubt if signal reaches us.

There are four in the whole of Hambleton District. 2 in Easingwold, 1
each in Bedale and Cowton. That doesn't strike me as enough to cover
such a large region.

Keyword "Arqiva" gave me no hits at all. "Smart meter" did.

I'd forgotten quite how bad their planning portal was... crashed it
twice in just a short search period.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Max Demian]

Do you want to give your energy company your Wi-Fi password?

--
Max Demian

[Roland Perry]

In message <t0fcr8$1jk4$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, at 11:46:50 on Fri, 11 Mar
2022, Max Demian <max_d...@bigfoot.com> remarked:

Should be possible to set the router up to allow the smart meter access
only to the external transit to the Internet.

--
Roland Perry

[Roger Hayter]

We should probably all have a firewalled "guest" WiFi channel for IoT things
(sic, not tautological) anyway. Many routers/APs alreadyy have such a
facility. (I'm fairly relaxed about my fridge being taken over by the
Russians as long as the rest of my network is secure.)
--
Roger Hayter

[Roland Perry]

In message <j916cj...@mid.individual.net>, at 14:58:27 on Fri, 11
Mar 2022, Roger Hayter <ro...@hayter.org> remarked:

I spent some time soon after the original coinage, trying to make
"Insecurity of Things" go viral, but failed.

>(sic, not tautological) anyway. Many routers/APs alreadyy have such a
>facility.

Yes, and mine does. But not all of them will. The other solution is to
buy a separate wifi point to add to the router, and then make sure it's
only got the sort of access a built-in Guest wifi channel would.

>(I'm fairly relaxed about my fridge being taken over by the
>Russians as long as the rest of my network is secure.)

--

Roland Perry

[Max Demian]

It "should be possible"; but, I suspect, you will have to be a
networking professional to be sure that it has been set up to restrict
access in that way.

--
Max Demian

[Roland Perry]

In message <t0ftj9$8mk$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:32:41 on Fri, 11 Mar

Not necessarily. Some routers have fairly straightforward user
interfaces to set that kind of thing up.
--
Roland Perry

[Martin Brown]

On 12/03/2022 05:45, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <t0ftj9$8mk$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:32:41 on Fri, 11 Mar
> 2022, Max Demian <max_d...@bigfoot.com> remarked:
>> On 11/03/2022 13:25, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <t0fcr8$1jk4$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, at 11:46:50 on Fri, 11 Mar
>>

>>>  Should be possible to set the router up to allow the smart meter
>>> access  only to the external transit to the Internet.
>>
>> It "should be possible"; but, I suspect, you will have to be a
>> networking professional to be sure that it has been set up to restrict
>> access in that way.
>
> Not necessarily. Some routers have fairly straightforward user
> interfaces to set that kind of thing up.

Don't most routers supplied by ISP's today have a guest network as
standard with an entirely separate subnet to the main one.

And of course BT users have its parasitic BTfon now BT Wifi lurking
there by default if they haven't changed the name yet again.

https://fon.com/bt-wifi-with-fon-rebranding/


--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Roland Perry]

In message <t0ho54$l5q$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:11:56 on Sat, 12 Mar

2022, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> remarked:

>On 12/03/2022 05:45, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <t0ftj9$8mk$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:32:41 on Fri, 11 Mar
>>2022, Max Demian <max_d...@bigfoot.com> remarked:
>>> On 11/03/2022 13:25, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <t0fcr8$1jk4$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, at 11:46:50 on Fri, 11
>>>>Mar
>>>
>>>>  Should be possible to set the router up to allow the smart meter
>>>>access  only to the external transit to the Internet.
>>>
>>> It "should be possible"; but, I suspect, you will have to be a
>>>networking professional to be sure that it has been set up to
>>>restrict access in that way.

>> Not necessarily. Some routers have fairly straightforward user
>>interfaces to set that kind of thing up.

>Don't most routers supplied by ISP's today have a guest network as
>standard with an entirely separate subnet to the main one.

Yes, they do, but that's in the set of "bleeding obvious workarounds",
so I'm suggesting slightly less well known ones, skewed towards older
routers.
--
Roland Perry

[The Todal]

On 17/02/2022 13:03, The Todal wrote:
> On 17/02/2022 11:03, Andy Burns wrote:
>> The Todal wrote:
>>
>>> I managed to lose my in-home display
>>
>> And there was me thinking that this company had to "invent" people who
>> (per their radio adverts) had "lost" the IHD, as an excuse to get
>> their mits on your consumption data ...
>>
>> <https://hugoenergyapp.co.uk>
>
> Thanks for the tip. I've downloaded the app now. Hope there isn't any
> catch and no hidden charges for using it.


A belated update, in case anyone is interested. If you have lost your
in-home display, or you are dissatisfied with the one that has been
provided, and you can't persuade your energy provider to supply a new
one, then I recommend the "ivie Bud" which can be purchased from Amazon
for fifty quid and is a replacement in-home display that works with most
smart meters.

Much easier to use and more informative than the in-house display that I
lost, and more useful than ever now that energy prices are soaring.

If this looks like an advert, apologies - maybe there are other similar
devices available.

[Robert]

the Hugo app can display data relating to your usage on previous
days/weeks etc but not for "today".

[The Todal]

Yes. And if you're trying to reduce the energy consumption here and now,
it's useful to be able to switch off an appliance and see the effect on
the in-home display.

I'm rather surprised to see that the base-line of my electricity
consumption after I've turned off every appliance that I can (other than
fridges/freezers) is higher than I had thought.

[Roland Perry]

In message <jl7op5...@mid.individual.net>, at 19:04:21 on Sat, 6 Aug
2022, The Todal <the_...@icloud.com> remarked:

Thanks for the update. Just checking if it's compatible... hmm, they
can't find my address, that's a bad start. Try the meter number...

Uh-oh! {they say}

At the minute, your smart meter isn't compatible with ivie Bud. But
don't worry! It'll be upgraded remotely in 2022.

What is "it"? The meter or the Bud.

The only connectivity a smart meter has is SMS (and I think part of my
problem is that's possibly rotted away). Not that you can do much
ugrading of a meter by SMS.
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <jl85nt...@mid.individual.net>, at 22:45:33 on Sat, 6 Aug

2022, The Todal <the_...@icloud.com> remarked:

Probably what's known as "zombies", that's things which you think you've
turned off but are still drawing current.

TPTB love crying wolf about zombie phone charger wallwarts [you can tell
they aren't drawing very much because they don't get even slightly warm]
but one of the penalties for bigger appliances "going digital" is they
often drawn current all the time.

While we are nominating useful gadgets, why not get one of these (or
equivalent, Amazon has several different designs, and they are cheaper
on eBay, probably all the same inside; I got a Maplin branded one years
ago):

<https://www.screwfix.com/p/energenie-ener007-energy-saving-power-
meter-socket/3477h>

--
Roland Perry

[Theo]

Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> Thanks for the update. Just checking if it's compatible... hmm, they
> can't find my address, that's a bad start. Try the meter number...
>
> Uh-oh! {they say}
>
> At the minute, your smart meter isn't compatible with ivie Bud. But
> don't worry! It'll be upgraded remotely in 2022.
>
> What is "it"? The meter or the Bud.

That sounds like a SMETS1 meter. Was it installed some years ago?
(first two digits of the meter number are the year it was installed)

There's a programme to enroll SMETS1 meters in the DCC, the national network
that sits between the meters and the energy retailers, so that when you
switch supplier it's just a case of rerouting the messages. The apps talk
to the DCC to get your meter reading information, rather than NN different
energy retailers. I think on SMETS1 the meter talked directly to your
retailer, which is why they went 'dumb' when you switched.

> The only connectivity a smart meter has is SMS (and I think part of my
> problem is that's possibly rotted away). Not that you can do much
> ugrading of a meter by SMS.

There is provisioning that can be done - getting the meter set
up with different credentials to talk to the DCC. I think that rollout's
being done carefully one meter type at a time. It is possible to update the
firmware remotely:
https://forum.ovoenergy.com/smart-meters-136/how-do-smart-meters-get-smarter-a-guide-to-smart-meter-firmware-updates-9382

For those meters only on 2G, EDGE would provide enough bandwidth for
kilobyte-sized firmware images. At least some SMETS2 comms hubs support 3G,
so those are less constrained by bandwidth.

This site is worth reading for the details:
https://www.smartme.co.uk/smets-1.html

Theo

[The Todal]

Thanks. I will.

I wonder how many of us unplug our TV, satellite box, DVD players, when
not in use. And how much electricity that might save.

I suppose even the broadband hub might be unplugged from the mains
during the night.

One of my showers is an electric shower. Its power consumption is much
higher than anything else in the house, so I suppose we ought to reduce
the time we spend in the shower. Or avoid using it.

It is rather frustrating when your energy supplier calculates your
monthly direct debit (which you can change if you don't like their
figure) on the basis that over the year you will use power at the same
rate as last year. That would be an appalling vista.

[Harry Bloomfield Esq]

On 07/08/2022 09:20, Roland Perry wrote:

> While we are nominating useful gadgets, why not get one of these (or
> equivalent, Amazon has several different designs, and they are cheaper
> on eBay, probably all the same inside; I got a Maplin branded one years
> ago):
>
> <https://www.screwfix.com/p/energenie-ener007-energy-saving-power-
> meter-socket/3477h>

I have one of those, except I paid less than half of that for it
delivered - Ebay.

Perfect for monitoring the likes of a fridge, or freezer, which switches
on and off as part of it's normal operation. Leave it connected for a
day, or a week - you then get a fairly accurate idea of actual consumption.

All a Smart Meter can tell you is what it consumes, when it is
consuming, but it's the average consumption of an appliance which is
important.

[Roland Perry]

In message <jl9e42...@mid.individual.net>, at 10:14:41 on Sun, 7 Aug

One of my biggest 'avoidable' drains is a masthead amplifier on my
terrestrial aerial, which is fed 24x7

>I suppose even the broadband hub might be unplugged from the mains
>during the night.

Yes, or should they have something built into them like a "deep sleep"
mode overnight [you specify the hours]. Yet another downside to the
transition from POTs to full-fibre and VoIP.

>One of my showers is an electric shower. Its power consumption is much
>higher than anything else in the house, so I suppose we ought to reduce
>the time we spend in the shower. Or avoid using it.

Saving water is the main reason people are recommended to use showers
not baths. But that assumes they aren't spending 20 minutes in the
shower. While I have a shower installed, it's from the gas-heated water.

>It is rather frustrating when your energy supplier calculates your
>monthly direct debit (which you can change if you don't like their
>figure) on the basis that over the year you will use power at the same
>rate as last year. That would be an appalling vista.

Hopefully one can feed them readings to refute that. I'm suffering from
the opposite - which is them underestimating my payments (not my usage)
in 2021, and now playing catch-up. I have no idea why those two became
decoupled, because their estimates of usage (and hence the finance) have
been quite accurate.
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <TaC*z8...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 09:48:37 on Sun,
7 Aug 2022, Theo <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:

>Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> Thanks for the update. Just checking if it's compatible... hmm, they
>> can't find my address, that's a bad start. Try the meter number...
>>
>> Uh-oh! {they say}
>>
>> At the minute, your smart meter isn't compatible with ivie Bud. But
>> don't worry! It'll be upgraded remotely in 2022.
>>
>> What is "it"? The meter or the Bud.
>
>That sounds like a SMETS1 meter. Was it installed some years ago?

Before my time.

>(first two digits of the meter number are the year it was installed)

On the meter (an E470) the MSN starts Z17, and at the end of the "No."
whatever that is, it says 2017. Now that I look, there's also a big
"SM1" written on it.

>There's a programme to enroll SMETS1 meters in the DCC, the national network
>that sits between the meters and the energy retailers, so that when you
>switch supplier it's just a case of rerouting the messages. The apps talk
>to the DCC to get your meter reading information, rather than NN different
>energy retailers. I think on SMETS1 the meter talked directly to your
>retailer, which is why they went 'dumb' when you switched.

I haven't switched. The failure of the readout gadget has happened at
some point when it's been stored for the last two years. The estimated
bill readings started on 1st Jan this year (tariff changes), and they
didn't tell me about the catch-up payments until April.

The last smart-reading was September 2021, and the readout gadget came
out of storage in May.

That last bill broke the 6-monthly cycle (it was a month late). Not sure
if the next will arrive at the beginning of September (the old cycle),
or October (6 months after April).

>> The only connectivity a smart meter has is SMS (and I think part of my
>> problem is that's possibly rotted away).

On the site below:

"This does not change the radio communication technology, so if
your SMETS 1 meter does not communicate currently it cannot be
upgraded. In this case your supplier may eventually install a
SMETS 2 meter if there is a SMETS 2 radio signal."

Maybe I should change supplier, to trigger something happening? The
current supplier has foot-dragging as an art form!

>>Not that you can do much
>> ugrading of a meter by SMS.
>
>There is provisioning that can be done - getting the meter set
>up with different credentials to talk to the DCC. I think that rollout's
>being done carefully one meter type at a time. It is possible to update the
>firmware remotely:
>https://forum.ovoenergy.com/smart-meters-136/how-do-smart-meters-get-
>smarter-a-guide-to-smart-meter-firmware-updates-9382
>
>For those meters only on 2G, EDGE would provide enough bandwidth for
>kilobyte-sized firmware images. At least some SMETS2 comms hubs support 3G,
>so those are less constrained by bandwidth.
>
>This site is worth reading for the details:
>https://www.smartme.co.uk/smets-1.html

That's got the E470 on their list for updating. Two variants. There's
nothing leaps out at me from the device itself which suggests which
variant it is, or even if it's one of those two.
--
Roland Perry

[Kofi Libon]

On 2022-08-07, The Todal <the_...@icloud.com> wrote:
> It is rather frustrating when your energy supplier calculates your
> monthly direct debit (which you can change if you don't like their
> figure) on the basis that over the year you will use power at the same
> rate as last year.

They let you change the monthly debit amount? And they based their
calculation on your actual usage for the past year? Both of those are
an improvement on my supplier. Are energy suppliers generally obliged
to change the DD amount on customer request?

My supplier based their calculations on my having used 83% more than I
in fact had used. When I questioned them, they would not acknowledge
they had got it wrong. Eventually they offered the option of taking me
off what they inaptly called their "budget plan" with its fixed payment,
instead charging me for my usage each month. I took that option.

My impression is that nothing stops energy companies from coming up with
excessive monthly debits, with the happy (for them) result of their
acquiring surplus cash at zero interest.
--
Kofi

[The Todal]

On 07/08/2022 16:26, Kofi Libon wrote:
> On 2022-08-07, The Todal <the_...@icloud.com> wrote:
>> It is rather frustrating when your energy supplier calculates your
>> monthly direct debit (which you can change if you don't like their
>> figure) on the basis that over the year you will use power at the same
>> rate as last year.
>
> They let you change the monthly debit amount? And they based their
> calculation on your actual usage for the past year? Both of those are
> an improvement on my supplier. Are energy suppliers generally obliged
> to change the DD amount on customer request?

Maybe it depends on what sort of energy account you have.

I can sign into my account and pick whatever figure I like to be my
direct debit. It was annoying when the energy company increased it
without my permission but they did allow me to reduce it back again by
signing in and going to the relevant web page.

I suppose they are afraid that many people will not be able to afford
their payments during the winter months so they are "helpfully"
encouraging all customers to pay in advance now.

So my account is currently in credit. I don't know how long I can expect
the direct debit to keep up with the bills as they increase over the
next few months. If need be I will increase the direct debit or make a
one off payment.

>
> My supplier based their calculations on my having used 83% more than I
> in fact had used. When I questioned them, they would not acknowledge
> they had got it wrong. Eventually they offered the option of taking me
> off what they inaptly called their "budget plan" with its fixed payment,
> instead charging me for my usage each month. I took that option.
>
> My impression is that nothing stops energy companies from coming up with
> excessive monthly debits, with the happy (for them) result of their
> acquiring surplus cash at zero interest.

I hear that many consumers are planning to withhold payment in the hope
that a concerted campaign will somehow bring prices down. It might force
some energy companies into bankruptcy. Or maybe those of us who can
afford the payments might be expected to pay more, to make up for those
who can't pay.

[Mark Goodge]

On 07 Aug 2022 09:48:37 +0100 (BST), Theo

<theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

>There's a programme to enroll SMETS1 meters in the DCC, the national network
>that sits between the meters and the energy retailers, so that when you
>switch supplier it's just a case of rerouting the messages. The apps talk
>to the DCC to get your meter reading information, rather than NN different
>energy retailers. I think on SMETS1 the meter talked directly to your
>retailer, which is why they went 'dumb' when you switched.

Some home devices talk to the DCC, others connect directly to the meter (and
some can do both). Those which talk directly to the meter are more useful,
since they can read in real time rather than relying on the DCC update
schedule, but the process for getting a device approved to connect directly
to the meter is, I'm reliably informed, incredibly long-winded and
bureaucratic, so there aren't, yet, all that many out there which can do it.
And it does only work for SMETS2 meters, AIUI.

Mark

[RustyHinge]

On 07/08/2022 10:14, The Todal wrote:

/snip/

> It is rather frustrating when your energy supplier calculates your
> monthly direct debit (which you can change if you don't like their
> figure) on the basis that over the year you will use power at the same
> rate as last year. That would be an appalling vista.

I just don't do direct debit. I pay my electrickery bill by standing
order, which *I* can adjust, top-up or reduce as I want.

Any utility which doesn't like it can lump it - or not be paid.

--
Rusty Hinge
To err is human. To really foul things up requires a computer and the BOFH.

[Jon Ribbens]

On 2022-08-08, RustyHinge <rusty...@foobar.girolle.co.uk> wrote:
> On 07/08/2022 10:14, The Todal wrote:
>
> /snip/
>
>> It is rather frustrating when your energy supplier calculates your
>> monthly direct debit (which you can change if you don't like their
>> figure) on the basis that over the year you will use power at the same
>> rate as last year. That would be an appalling vista.
>
> I just don't do direct debit. I pay my electrickery bill by standing
> order, which *I* can adjust, top-up or reduce as I want.
>
> Any utility which doesn't like it can lump it - or not be paid.

Except they don't choose either of those options, they choose "make you
pay extra". Which is an option you can choose to accept, of course, but
generally speaking it's a bad deal.

[RustyHinge]

Except that if you aren't scanning all your DDs' details regularly you
can find you're paying over the odds notwithstanding.

I prefer to keep my expenditure under my control.

[Jon Ribbens]

On 2022-08-08, RustyHinge <rusty...@foobar.girolle.co.uk> wrote:
> On 08/08/2022 09:25, Jon Ribbens wrote:
>> On 2022-08-08, RustyHinge <rusty...@foobar.girolle.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 07/08/2022 10:14, The Todal wrote:
>>>
>>> /snip/
>>>
>>>> It is rather frustrating when your energy supplier calculates your
>>>> monthly direct debit (which you can change if you don't like their
>>>> figure) on the basis that over the year you will use power at the same
>>>> rate as last year. That would be an appalling vista.
>>>
>>> I just don't do direct debit. I pay my electrickery bill by standing
>>> order, which *I* can adjust, top-up or reduce as I want.
>>>
>>> Any utility which doesn't like it can lump it - or not be paid.
>>
>> Except they don't choose either of those options, they choose "make you
>> pay extra". Which is an option you can choose to accept, of course, but
>> generally speaking it's a bad deal.
>
> Except that if you aren't scanning all your DDs' details regularly you
> can find you're paying over the odds notwithstanding.

Well, not really. If they take too much via DD then they will have to
consider it credit on your account and hence you will pay less later,
you will not be out of pocket and you will not be "paying over the odds".
(If they took a lot too much you could claim it back immediately via the
direct debit guarantee of course.)

What *does* involve "paying over the odds" is refusing to pay by direct
debit, which means they will bill you extra over and above what everyone
else is paying, and that is money you will never get back.

> I prefer to keep my expenditure under my control.

That is of course your right, I just think it's worth pointing out that
it comes at a cost.

[Theo]

Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
> Some home devices talk to the DCC, others connect directly to the meter (and
> some can do both). Those which talk directly to the meter are more useful,
> since they can read in real time rather than relying on the DCC update
> schedule, but the process for getting a device approved to connect directly
> to the meter is, I'm reliably informed, incredibly long-winded and
> bureaucratic, so there aren't, yet, all that many out there which can do it.
> And it does only work for SMETS2 meters, AIUI.

The 'Home Area Network' is Zigbee, so that's not accessible from a regular
smartphone, and as you say the certifcation process is fairly locked down
for security reasons.

You can get this kind of thing for SMETS1 meters:
https://shop.glowmarkt.com/products/glow-stick
(and a similar thing with a display for SMETS2)

but a key problem with this is it *only* exports data to their cloud - you
can't use it locally. So it's merrily uploading your realtime data to their
server (from where their app can see it), but it's not possible to get a
simple feed of (time, watts) data out of the device yourself.

Which means you're wholly reliant on their server infrastructure being there
- and (when talking to their API) it has stopped working numerous times.

Theo

[The Todal]

If your monthly payments fall too far behind your monthly bills, you can
expect the energy company to insist on higher payments from you. I don't
see how you can avoid that happening.

[Max Demian]

That's what the price cap is supposed to stop. I assume it works.

--
Max Demian

[Roland Perry]

In message <SaC*1J...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 11:22:12 on Mon,
8 Aug 2022, Theo <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:

>You can get this kind of thing for SMETS1 meters:
>https://shop.glowmarkt.com/products/glow-stick
>(and a similar thing with a display for SMETS2)

I might buy one if they had a no-quibble refund should it turn out not
to work (despite their bravado that it should).

Anyway, I downloaded their app, (which has a ludicrously prescriptive
password filter) and it says "You need a SMETS 2" - which I don't have -
"or Glowmarkt compatible hardware".

But isn't this app supposed to be helping me decide whether or not to
buy the latter?

It then asks me if I have a display from the smart meter installer (yes,
but it's not working with my meter, dear Liza) and then wants some sort
of serial number from that display, which it doesn't have one that they
recognise.
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <hcSdnUCPlIF0em3_...@brightview.co.uk>, at
11:39:37 on Mon, 8 Aug 2022, Max Demian <max_d...@bigfoot.com>
remarked:

I would expect the price cap to be different for pre-pay meters than
post-pay-by-DD, for example.
--
Roland Perry

[Theo]

It is. 'Prepayment' are what it says on the tin, 'standard credit'
is paying on receipt of bill, 'other payment method' is direct debit:
https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2022-02/Default%20tariff%20cap%20level%20-%201%20April%202022%20-%2030%20September%202022.pdf

An 'average' user in London pays £62.57pa more for gas and £64.60 for non-E7
electricity at the standard credit rate. So that user pays £126.97pa more
by not using Direct Debit.

Theo

[Theo]

Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <SaC*1J...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 11:22:12 on Mon,
> 8 Aug 2022, Theo <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>
> >You can get this kind of thing for SMETS1 meters:
> >https://shop.glowmarkt.com/products/glow-stick
> >(and a similar thing with a display for SMETS2)
>
> I might buy one if they had a no-quibble refund should it turn out not
> to work (despite their bravado that it should).
>
> Anyway, I downloaded their app, (which has a ludicrously prescriptive
> password filter) and it says "You need a SMETS 2" - which I don't have -
> "or Glowmarkt compatible hardware".
>
> But isn't this app supposed to be helping me decide whether or not to
> buy the latter?

No, the app gets data from the DCC directly. You get half-hourly readings
(updated about 2-3 minutes after the end of the half hour IMX) but no live
data, because the DCC doesn't get sent that. If you want live data you need
a hardware widget that talks to the meter directly, not going via the DCC
server.

Your meter seemingly isn't talking to the DCC (or not in a way they
recognise) so there's no data for the app to receive.

Bringing us back to actual legal content (:-), if you buy the hardware
widget you have 14 days under the Consumer Rights Act to return it for a
refund. So you don't need a 'no quibble refund policy', every retailer now
has one of those, statutorily.

Theo

[RustyHinge]

On 08/08/2022 11:18, Jon Ribbens wrote:

/snip/

> Well, not really. If they take too much via DD then they will have to
> consider it credit on your account and hence you will pay less later,
> you will not be out of pocket and you will not be "paying over the odds".
> (If they took a lot too much you could claim it back immediately via the
> direct debit guarantee of course.)

> What*does* involve "paying over the odds" is refusing to pay by direct

> debit, which means they will bill you extra over and above what everyone
> else is paying, and that is money you will never get back.

Being in credit for an extended period reduces your fiscal fluidity and
your capital as a result of depreciation, so it probably evens-out.

>> I prefer to keep my expenditure under my control.

> That is of course your right, I just think it's worth pointing out that
> it comes at a cost.

I rate the cost in peanuts. I don't tend to lash-out anyway: I'm
housebound and pretty-well confined to one room, where I commune with a
small forest on my windowsill, and a team of care workers from
time-to-time. I have a very promising crop of peppers there, some small
tomatoes, a grove-in-a-bowl of avocado saplings and an empty cut lead
crystal lump of a whisky decanter laughing at me.

I'm 82, with a vast income from pension and pension credit and I still
manage to put money aside for, er, well, something-or other.

And, since my (im)mobile signal is so poor I can't now use my card
online, I'm saving even more (no Laphroaig, see?).

[RustyHinge]

On 08/08/2022 11:25, The Todal wrote:
>
> If your monthly payments fall too far behind your monthly bills, you can
> expect the energy company to insist on higher payments from you. I don't
> see how you can avoid that happening.

By paying by standing order, thilly.

[Tim Woodall]

On 2022-08-08, Jon Ribbens <jon+u...@unequivocal.eu> wrote:
>
> Well, not really. If they take too much via DD then they will have to
> consider it credit on your account and hence you will pay less later,
> you will not be out of pocket and you will not be "paying over the odds".
> (If they took a lot too much you could claim it back immediately via the
> direct debit guarantee of course.)
>

Except that they're able to use that money for the general day to day
running of the business. I think overpayments should be required to be
held in a client account so that in the event of a bankruptcy the credit
amounts can immediately be transferred over to a new supplier.

[Mark Goodge]

On 08 Aug 2022 11:22:12 +0100 (BST), Theo

<theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

>Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>> Some home devices talk to the DCC, others connect directly to the meter (and
>> some can do both). Those which talk directly to the meter are more useful,
>> since they can read in real time rather than relying on the DCC update
>> schedule, but the process for getting a device approved to connect directly
>> to the meter is, I'm reliably informed, incredibly long-winded and
>> bureaucratic, so there aren't, yet, all that many out there which can do it.
>> And it does only work for SMETS2 meters, AIUI.
>
>The 'Home Area Network' is Zigbee, so that's not accessible from a regular
>smartphone, and as you say the certifcation process is fairly locked down
>for security reasons.

Yes, it has to be a standalone device, not an app on a smartphone.

>You can get this kind of thing for SMETS1 meters:
>https://shop.glowmarkt.com/products/glow-stick
>(and a similar thing with a display for SMETS2)
>
>but a key problem with this is it *only* exports data to their cloud - you
>can't use it locally. So it's merrily uploading your realtime data to their
>server (from where their app can see it), but it's not possible to get a
>simple feed of (time, watts) data out of the device yourself.
>
>Which means you're wholly reliant on their server infrastructure being there
>- and (when talking to their API) it has stopped working numerous times.

Indeed. That's why a proper Consumer Access Device (CAD) that talks directly
to the meter via Zigbee and displays the data locally, without first
uploading it to the cloud, is the best option. The ivie Bud, and the CAD
that it's based on, the Chameleon IHD6, will do this, but the data is only
displayed on the device itself. Getting it further than the device (eg, to a
smartphone app or exporting to csv) still requires going via the cloud.

I don't hugely object to exporting data to the cloud for access via an app,
since one of the main points of the app is that it's available anywhere. But
a direct local export to a PC (via either wifi or USB) is not something I've
yet come across.

This is, unfortunately, a weakness of the UK smartmeter spec. Because they
only communicate locally via Zigbee, and the CAD has to be explicitly paired
with the meter (and an unapproved device can't be paired), it isn't amenable
to a DIY solution and the approval process is a significant barrier to
products that are in any way different to those aimed at the typical mass
market consumer. Other countries have a meter spec which includes a hardware
socket (the "P2" socket) which gives full read-only access to the data and
can be accessed via any device that plugs into it. That's a lot more
consumer-friendly, at least for those who like to be able to get at their
data without it going via the cloud.

Mark

[Roland Perry]

In message <VaC*MY...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 12:25:15 on Mon,

8 Aug 2022, Theo <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <SaC*1J...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 11:22:12 on Mon,
>> 8 Aug 2022, Theo <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>>
>> >You can get this kind of thing for SMETS1 meters:
>> >https://shop.glowmarkt.com/products/glow-stick
>> >(and a similar thing with a display for SMETS2)
>>
>> I might buy one if they had a no-quibble refund should it turn out not
>> to work (despite their bravado that it should).
>>
>> Anyway, I downloaded their app, (which has a ludicrously prescriptive
>> password filter) and it says "You need a SMETS 2" - which I don't have -
>> "or Glowmarkt compatible hardware".
>>
>> But isn't this app supposed to be helping me decide whether or not to
>> buy the latter?
>
>No, the app gets data from the DCC directly. You get half-hourly readings
>(updated about 2-3 minutes after the end of the half hour IMX) but no live
>data, because the DCC doesn't get sent that. If you want live data you need
>a hardware widget that talks to the meter directly, not going via the DCC
>server.

I thought that was the widget they were attempting to sell. The next
stage being "do we predict this widget (should you buy one) work with
*your* smart meter", which is the process that's broken.

>Your meter seemingly isn't talking to the DCC (or not in a way they
>recognise) so there's no data for the app to receive.
>
>Bringing us back to actual legal content (:-), if you buy the hardware
>widget you have 14 days under the Consumer Rights Act to return it for a
>refund. So you don't need a 'no quibble refund policy', every retailer now
>has one of those, statutorily.
>
>Theo

--
Roland Perry

[Andy Burns]

Roland Perry wrote:

> Theo remarked:

>
>> You can get this kind of thing for SMETS1 meters:
>> https://shop.glowmarkt.com/products/glow-stick
>

> I might buy one if they had a no-quibble refund should it turn out not to work
> (despite their bravado that it should).

Not all SMETS1 meters are zigbee, I think mine is "Wireless M-bus", but
similarly I've not wanted to fork out £60 for a dongle to talk to it, because
I'm not certain that it will.

<https://cpc.farnell.com/amber-wireless/amb8465-m/adapter-usb-wireless-m-bus-w-ant/dp/RF00312>

I found <cough>another way</cough> by tapping into the an SPI bus between the
radio module and the main processor within the IHD.

[Roland Perry]

In message <6212fhd324pgn0mgs...@4ax.com>, at 14:00:20 on
Mon, 8 Aug 2022, Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
remarked:

I thought we'd decided the Bud only works with some smart meters.

>but the data is only displayed on the device itself.

That's all I'd want at the moment.

>Getting it further than the device (eg, to a
>smartphone app or exporting to csv) still requires going via the cloud.
>
>I don't hugely object to exporting data to the cloud for access via an app,
>since one of the main points of the app is that it's available anywhere. But
>a direct local export to a PC (via either wifi or USB) is not something I've
>yet come across.
>
>This is, unfortunately, a weakness of the UK smartmeter spec. Because they
>only communicate locally via Zigbee, and the CAD has to be explicitly paired
>with the meter (and an unapproved device can't be paired), it isn't amenable
>to a DIY solution and the approval process is a significant barrier to
>products that are in any way different to those aimed at the typical mass
>market consumer. Other countries have a meter spec which includes a hardware
>socket (the "P2" socket) which gives full read-only access to the data and
>can be accessed via any device that plugs into it. That's a lot more
>consumer-friendly, at least for those who like to be able to get at their
>data without it going via the cloud.
>
>Mark

--
Roland Perry

[Mark Goodge]

Yes. And yours isn't one of them, it seems.

Mark

[RJH]

On 8 Aug 2022 at 12:25:15 BST, Theo wrote:

> Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <SaC*1J...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 11:22:12 on Mon,
>> 8 Aug 2022, Theo <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>>
>>> You can get this kind of thing for SMETS1 meters:
>>> https://shop.glowmarkt.com/products/glow-stick
>>> (and a similar thing with a display for SMETS2)
>>
>> I might buy one if they had a no-quibble refund should it turn out not
>> to work (despite their bravado that it should).
>>
>> Anyway, I downloaded their app, (which has a ludicrously prescriptive
>> password filter) and it says "You need a SMETS 2" - which I don't have -
>> "or Glowmarkt compatible hardware".
>>
>> But isn't this app supposed to be helping me decide whether or not to
>> buy the latter?
>
> No, the app gets data from the DCC directly. You get half-hourly readings
> (updated about 2-3 minutes after the end of the half hour IMX) but no live
> data, because the DCC doesn't get sent that. If you want live data you need
> a hardware widget that talks to the meter directly, not going via the DCC
> server.
>

I've managed to download the data csv file from
http://www.smarttariffsmartcomparison.org - or at least 'some' data - 19000
rows of 2 values every 30 minutes. Couple of Qs if I may (and sorry for the
thread drift!):

I can't seem to make sense of the data in date and Whr columns. The rows don't
seem to be gas and electricity. Is there a trick/tip to interpretting the
data? I have managed to convert the timestamp btw.

I can only download data to February of this year - any idea why more recent
data isn't available?

I suppose, to drag the thread vaguelly on-topic, I could ask for a FOI . . .
?!

--
Cheers, Rob

[Theo]

Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <VaC*MY...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 12:25:15 on Mon,
> 8 Aug 2022, Theo <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
> >

> >No, the app gets data from the DCC directly. You get half-hourly readings
> >(updated about 2-3 minutes after the end of the half hour IMX) but no live
> >data, because the DCC doesn't get sent that. If you want live data you need
> >a hardware widget that talks to the meter directly, not going via the DCC
> >server.
>
> I thought that was the widget they were attempting to sell. The next
> stage being "do we predict this widget (should you buy one) work with
> *your* smart meter", which is the process that's broken.

Your meter talks to the DCC. Their server downloads half hourly data from
the DCC. Their app downloads data from their server.

If you buy their widget, the widget talks to your meter. The widget uploads
live readings to their server. Their app downloads data from their server.

The app works however the data gets to the server, but without the widget
you only get half hourly readings.

If your meter is not compatible with the DCC or the widget, you might not be
able to do one or the other of the above. But lack of one doesn't preclude
the other, since they operate in different ways.

Theo

[Roland Perry]

In message <SaC*jh...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 22:59:00 on Mon,

What's lacking is an obvious/easy way to see if the widget would talk to
my meter.

The app, which is horrible by the way, says "You need a SMETS 2" - which
I don't have - "or Glowmarkt compatible hardware" - how can I determine
the latter?

ps Half hourly aggregated data isn't much use to anyone if they want to
switch appliances on and off and see how much the household supply goes
up and down [wasn't that the whole point of smart meter displays?]

I think my next port of call will be a clip-on ammeter with a remote
readout. If such a thing exists. Or perhaps I can make one. The clip-on
sensors are available 'separately' because they are part of the design
of many EV charger systems.
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <tcrplt$110sr$1...@dont-email.me>, at 19:54:37 on Mon, 8 Aug
2022, RJH <patch...@gmx.com> remarked:

Perhaps your meter lost contact with HQ around then (or partially died
for another reason). Do you have any non-estimated readings on bills
since February? [My bills have been estimates since 1st Jan, despite
having a smart meter fitted].

>I suppose, to drag the thread vaguelly on-topic, I could ask for a FOI . . .

Subject Access, actually.
--
Roland Perry

[Andy Burns]

Roland Perry wrote:

> The app, which is horrible by the way, says "You need a SMETS 2" - which I don't
> have - "or Glowmarkt compatible hardware" - how can I determine the latter?

What exact model of meters and IHD do you have?

[Mark Goodge]

On Tue, 9 Aug 2022 07:39:17 +0100, Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <SaC*jh...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 22:59:00 on Mon,
>8 Aug 2022, Theo <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:

>>Your meter talks to the DCC. Their server downloads half hourly data from
>>the DCC. Their app downloads data from their server.
>>
>>If you buy their widget, the widget talks to your meter. The widget uploads
>>live readings to their server. Their app downloads data from their server.
>>
>>The app works however the data gets to the server, but without the widget
>>you only get half hourly readings.
>>
>>If your meter is not compatible with the DCC or the widget, you might not be
>>able to do one or the other of the above. But lack of one doesn't preclude
>>the other, since they operate in different ways.
>
>What's lacking is an obvious/easy way to see if the widget would talk to
>my meter.

For the ivie Bud, you can check it on their website:

https://ivie.co.uk/compatibility/

Other Consumer Access Device (CAD) suppliers have similar facilities on
their websites. This is reliable, because the DCC knows what meter you have
and which electricity company you are with, and the CAD approval process
requires the CAD supplier to specify which meters it works with and the
electricity company to specific which CADs they will permit on their meters.
So for the website checker it's just a simple lookup.

>The app, which is horrible by the way, says "You need a SMETS 2" - which
>I don't have - "or Glowmarkt compatible hardware" - how can I determine
>the latter?

Most people can be expected to know because they will know what they bought.
If not, then you'd need to check on the Glowmarkt website.

>ps Half hourly aggregated data isn't much use to anyone if they want to
>switch appliances on and off and see how much the household supply goes
>up and down [wasn't that the whole point of smart meter displays?]

The In-Home Display (IHD) gives real-time information, which is what you
need in this scenario. But an app which takes its data from the DCC can't.

It's worth bearing in mind that there are basically two ways for the data to
get from the meter to an app, although one of those ways has two variants:

Route 1a: meter -> DCC -> electricity supplier -> app
Route 1b: meter -> DCC -> electricity supplier -> app supplier -> app

Route 2: meter -> CAD -> app supplier -> app

Route 1 will work with any DCC-linked meter, and doesn't require any
additional hardware. If you use an app supplied by the electricity company
then you also don't need to rely on any third party system (some of which
are not necessarily guaranteed to remain free). But the downside of route 1,
in either variant, is that the display on the app can never be any more
granular than the DCC itself, which is, at best, half-hourly.

Route 2 requires an additional hardware device (the CAD), and will only work
if the CAD has been authorised to pair with your meter. It also requires the
data to go via a third party, which, again, may not be long-term reliable.
But, on the other hand, the granularity isn't restricted by the DCC (since
the DCC isn't part of the route), and therefore the app can, at least
theoretically, give near real-time information. The CAD also needs to be
connected to your wifi in order to upload the data to the cloud.

>I think my next port of call will be a clip-on ammeter with a remote
>readout. If such a thing exists. Or perhaps I can make one. The clip-on
>sensors are available 'separately' because they are part of the design
>of many EV charger systems.

Plenty of those exist. For example, one of these https://amzn.to/3SFwPSg
added to this "smart home" network https://amzn.to/3p8GFi0 will do the job.

Or, for a cheaper system that simply gives you a display, one of these will
do the job: http://www.currentcost.com/product-envir.html - this particular
device is no longer marketed, but there are plenty available second hand on
eBay and the like. A lot of them were sold by, and thus branded with the
name of, an electricity supplier, but that's purely cosmetic - one with any
brand on will work with any energy supplier. I've got one branded E-on, but
it works fine with Ovo. This, for example, is one that's currently on eBay,
but a search for "CurrentCost" will find others: https://ebay.us/7IfPBk

The CurrentCost monitor is a bit of a favourite among the hacker (in the
original sense of the word) community, because it has a socket that can
connect via USB to a PC. The official CurrentCost Windows software hasn't
been updated for some time, but there are plenty of guides on the web, along
with open source software, for getting one to communicate with, for example,
a Raspberry Pi.

Mark

[Roland Perry]

In message <jlf4cg...@mid.individual.net>, at 14:05:19 on Tue, 9 Aug
2022, Andy Burns <use...@andyburns.uk> remarked:

I gave the meter model earlier. If IHD is "in home device" it's a rather
plain one branded British Gas, and entirely consistent with being
supplied with the meter. It worked OK until I stuck it in a cupboard
about two years ago because I was having work done in the kitchen.
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <0sv4fhhdnlse2vm1o...@4ax.com>, at 17:27:03 on
Tue, 9 Aug 2022, Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
remarked:

>On Tue, 9 Aug 2022 07:39:17 +0100, Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <SaC*jh...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 22:59:00 on Mon,
>>8 Aug 2022, Theo <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>
>>>Your meter talks to the DCC. Their server downloads half hourly data from
>>>the DCC. Their app downloads data from their server.
>>>
>>>If you buy their widget, the widget talks to your meter. The widget uploads
>>>live readings to their server. Their app downloads data from their server.
>>>
>>>The app works however the data gets to the server, but without the widget
>>>you only get half hourly readings.
>>>
>>>If your meter is not compatible with the DCC or the widget, you might not be
>>>able to do one or the other of the above. But lack of one doesn't preclude
>>>the other, since they operate in different ways.
>>
>>What's lacking is an obvious/easy way to see if the widget would talk to
>>my meter.
>
>For the ivie Bud, you can check it on their website:
>
>https://ivie.co.uk/compatibility/

I've already posted the results of that. Doesn't recognise my perfectly
ordinary address, but when the given the meter number says "no". Which
is why I was following a later suggestion to use "Bright!"

>Other Consumer Access Device (CAD) suppliers have similar facilities on
>their websites. This is reliable, because the DCC knows what meter you have
>and which electricity company you are with, and the CAD approval process
>requires the CAD supplier to specify which meters it works with and the
>electricity company to specific which CADs they will permit on their meters.
>So for the website checker it's just a simple lookup.
>
>>The app, which is horrible by the way, says "You need a SMETS 2" - which
>>I don't have - "or Glowmarkt compatible hardware" - how can I determine
>>the latter?
>
>Most people can be expected to know because they will know what they bought.

"What they bought"? You mean which smart meter, or which 'compatible
hardware'.

>If not, then you'd need to check on the Glowmarkt website.

I've tried the app, but it doesn't co-operate.

>>ps Half hourly aggregated data isn't much use to anyone if they want to
>>switch appliances on and off and see how much the household supply goes
>>up and down [wasn't that the whole point of smart meter displays?]
>
>The In-Home Display (IHD) gives real-time information, which is what you
>need in this scenario. But an app which takes its data from the DCC can't.
>
>It's worth bearing in mind that there are basically two ways for the data to
>get from the meter to an app, although one of those ways has two variants:
>
>Route 1a: meter -> DCC -> electricity supplier -> app
>Route 1b: meter -> DCC -> electricity supplier -> app supplier -> app
>
>Route 2: meter -> CAD -> app supplier -> app

The impression I was left with regarding the Glowmarkt dongle was it
went meter > dongle > app. But the marketing material didn't explain it
very well.

>Route 1 will work with any DCC-linked meter, and doesn't require any
>additional hardware. If you use an app supplied by the electricity company
>then you also don't need to rely on any third party system (some of which
>are not necessarily guaranteed to remain free). But the downside of route 1,
>in either variant, is that the display on the app can never be any more
>granular than the DCC itself, which is, at best, half-hourly.
>
>Route 2 requires an additional hardware device (the CAD), and will only work
>if the CAD has been authorised to pair with your meter. It also requires the
>data to go via a third party, which, again, may not be long-term reliable.
>But, on the other hand, the granularity isn't restricted by the DCC (since
>the DCC isn't part of the route), and therefore the app can, at least
>theoretically, give near real-time information. The CAD also needs to be
>connected to your wifi in order to upload the data to the cloud.
>
>>I think my next port of call will be a clip-on ammeter with a remote
>>readout. If such a thing exists. Or perhaps I can make one. The clip-on
>>sensors are available 'separately' because they are part of the design
>>of many EV charger systems.
>
>Plenty of those exist. For example, one of these https://amzn.to/3SFwPSg

I was really looking for just the clip on the right. and also:

Monitors 2W-7.2kW, single phase [erm, 60amp is 14.2kW; is this designed
for European homes with rather flimsy supplies?]

Requires MiHome Gateway sold separately [I was going to dust off my
soldering iron and build something myself]

>added to this "smart home" network https://amzn.to/3p8GFi0 will do the job.

Why would I need smart-plugs; £80 seems awfully expensive for just a
readout device (although the box doesn't seem to have a readout anyway).

>
>Or, for a cheaper system that simply gives you a display, one of these will
>do the job: http://www.currentcost.com/product-envir.html

Is that fed from a clip-on transformer, or are we back to the seemingly
futile exercise of trying to pair with a smart-meter?

>- this particular
>device is no longer marketed, but there are plenty available second hand on
>eBay and the like. A lot of them were sold by, and thus branded with the
>name of, an electricity supplier, but that's purely cosmetic - one with any
>brand on will work with any energy supplier. I've got one branded E-on, but
>it works fine with Ovo. This, for example, is one that's currently on eBay,
>but a search for "CurrentCost" will find others: https://ebay.us/7IfPBk

Ah, a clip-on. Of course they are not in any way linked to energy
companies, being simply a transformer on a physical wire.

>The CurrentCost monitor is a bit of a favourite among the hacker (in the
>original sense of the word) community, because it has a socket that can
>connect via USB to a PC. The official CurrentCost Windows software hasn't
>been updated for some time, but there are plenty of guides on the web, along
>with open source software, for getting one to communicate with, for example,
>a Raspberry Pi.
>
>Mark

--
Roland Perry

[Martin Brown]

On 06/08/2022 22:45, The Todal wrote:
> On 06/08/2022 21:51, Robert wrote:
>> On 06/08/2022 19:04, The Todal wrote:
>>> On 17/02/2022 13:03, The Todal wrote:
>>>> On 17/02/2022 11:03, Andy Burns wrote:
>>>>> The Todal wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I managed to lose my in-home display
>>>>>
>>>>> And there was me thinking that this company had to "invent" people
>>>>> who (per their radio adverts) had "lost" the IHD, as an excuse to
>>>>> get their mits on your consumption data ...
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://hugoenergyapp.co.uk>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for the tip. I've downloaded the app now. Hope there isn't
>>>> any catch and no hidden charges for using it.
>>>
>>>
>>> A belated update, in case anyone is interested. If you have lost your
>>> in-home display, or you are dissatisfied with the one that has been
>>> provided, and you can't persuade your energy provider to supply a new
>>> one, then I recommend the "ivie Bud" which can be purchased from
>>> Amazon for fifty quid and is a replacement in-home display that works
>>> with most smart meters.
>>>
>>> Much easier to use and more informative than the in-house display
>>> that I lost, and more useful than ever now that energy prices are
>>> soaring.
>>>
>>> If this looks like an advert, apologies - maybe there are other
>>> similar devices available.
>> the Hugo app can display data relating to your usage on previous
>> days/weeks etc but not for "today".
>
> Yes. And if you're trying to reduce the energy consumption here and now,
> it's useful to be able to switch off an appliance and see the effect on
> the in-home display.
>
> I'm rather surprised to see that the base-line of my electricity
> consumption after I've turned off every appliance that I can (other than
> fridges/freezers) is higher than I had thought.

How high is it? My baseline load is 70W 24/7 and I have a hell of a lot
of smart gadgets, routers, IoT kit and emergency lighting in the house.

100W average base load is not uncommon when you include the demands of
fridges and freezers. Anything much more than 100W and you should be
going around looking to see what it is drawing the extra power.

When I first did it I found 2 ancient old transformer style wall warts
hidden behind furniture and running warm to the touch. Modern switched
mode ones have barely measurable consumption when not providing power.

Hifi, older TVs, PC sound systems, printers, scanners are the prime
suspects for hidden consumption when notionally in standby.

Most modern stuff is under 1W in standby and certainly under 4W. Your
local library might be able to lend you an energy efficiency test socket
that lets you measure power consumption of each device. Or you could buy
one - CPC seem to have the best price for them at the moment:

https://cpc.farnell.com/energenie/ener007/power-meter/dp/PL13026

It will probably pay back if you have some zombies stealing power.
Slaving all peripherals to either TV or PC can save you money.
(but you do have to buy a smart master/slave socket to do it)

Increasingly modern highly efficient PCs don't draw enough power to
cause the peripherals to switch on - which can be a nuisance.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Roland Perry]

In message <tcvvu2$1ukq$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, at 11:05:53 on Wed, 10 Aug
2022, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> remarked:

>Most modern stuff is under 1W in standby and certainly under 4W. Your
>local library might be able to lend you an energy efficiency test
>socket that lets you measure power consumption of each device. Or you
>could buy one - CPC seem to have the best price for them at the moment:
>
>https://cpc.farnell.com/energenie/ener007/power-meter/dp/PL13026

That's the kind of spec and price I mentioned the other day from
numerous eBay sellers. But not VAT-inclusive, and not free-delivery.

I'd say £12.49 was the street price (inc VAT and delivery).
--
Roland Perry

[Martin Brown]

On 07/08/2022 10:14, The Todal wrote:

> On 07/08/2022 09:20, Roland Perry wrote:

>> While we are nominating useful gadgets, why not get one of these (or
>> equivalent, Amazon has several different designs, and they are cheaper
>> on eBay, probably all the same inside; I got a Maplin branded one years
>> ago):
>>
>>   <https://www.screwfix.com/p/energenie-ener007-energy-saving-power-
>> meter-socket/3477h>
>
> Thanks. I will.

Cheaper from CPC online (although I'm not sure that they don't have a
minimum order value higher than the price of the unit).

> I wonder how many of us unplug our TV, satellite box, DVD players, when
> not in use. And how much electricity that might save.

Simpler to have a smart switch that is controlled by the TV. If your kit
is mostly modern then you may only save 1W per thing unplugged, but some
elderly TVs can use as much as 30W in standby (powering the DAB decoder
or satellite feed to obtain software updates overnight).

Two sorts available - one learns the "on" code from your TV remote and
then powers up the peripherals for as long as the TV is on and the other
monitors the current draw of the TV and when it increases to operating
value powers up the other peripherals. They used to be common but have
become increasingly difficult to find. This is an example:

www.amazon.co.uk/ELECTRIUM-Oneclick-Intelligent-Mains-Panel/dp/B0007SQK54/

TV remote version Eon branded (other suppliers available)

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Energy-Powerdown-Protection-Remote-EON/dp/B00VKU57D4/

Both are preferable to messing about plugging and unplugging things.

> I suppose even the broadband hub might be unplugged from the mains
> during the night.

Not a great idea if it is VDSL or ADSL typically htey are ~12W. The line
training will tend to downgrade your sync speed if it sees line drops of
any sort. I wish they would make one that ceased broadcasting Wifi until
something sends it a message. Receiving a signal uses much less power.
>
> One of my showers is an electric shower. Its power consumption is much
> higher than anything else in the house, so I suppose we ought to reduce
> the time we spend in the shower. Or avoid using it.

I am about to superinsulate our hot water tank for exactly that reason.
It is now the biggest single use of electricity in the house.

> It is rather frustrating when your energy supplier calculates your
> monthly direct debit (which you can change if you don't like their
> figure) on the basis that over the year you will use power at the same
> rate as last year. That would be an appalling vista.

It isn't a bad approximation under normal circumstances. I suspect a lot
of people (myself included) will be using less this year than last.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Martin Brown]

On 08/08/2022 09:44, RustyHinge wrote:
> On 08/08/2022 09:25, Jon Ribbens wrote:
>> On 2022-08-08, RustyHinge <rusty...@foobar.girolle.co.uk> wrote:

>>> On 07/08/2022 10:14, The Todal wrote:
>>>

>>> /snip/

>>>
>>>> It is rather frustrating when your energy supplier calculates your
>>>> monthly direct debit (which you can change if you don't like their
>>>> figure) on the basis that over the year you will use power at the same
>>>> rate as last year. That would be an appalling vista.
>>>

>>> I just don't do direct debit. I pay my electrickery bill by standing
>>> order, which *I* can adjust, top-up or reduce as I want.
>>>
>>> Any utility which doesn't like it can lump it - or not be paid.
>>
>> Except they don't choose either of those options, they choose "make you
>> pay extra". Which is an option you can choose to accept, of course, but
>> generally speaking it's a bad deal.
>
> Except that if you aren't scanning all your DDs' details regularly you
> can find you're paying over the odds notwithstanding.
>

> I prefer to keep my expenditure under my control.

But you should understand that you are paying dearly for that.

All the best deals are for direct debits and/or paperless billing.
The direct debit guarantee is all the reassurance I need.
(and I have never had to use it so far <fx>touches wood</fx>

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[The Todal]

On 10/08/2022 11:05, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 06/08/2022 22:45, The Todal wrote:

>>
>> I'm rather surprised to see that the base-line of my electricity
>> consumption after I've turned off every appliance that I can (other
>> than fridges/freezers) is higher than I had thought.
>
> How high is it? My baseline load is 70W 24/7 and I have a hell of a lot
> of smart gadgets, routers, IoT kit and emergency lighting in the house.
>

Mine seems to be close to 200w. I can see that I have a lot of power
supplies that I keep permanently on - for the cordless phones
throughout the house, for the printers, laptop chargers, camera battery
charger etc. Many could be left switched off so long as I remember that
the reason the laptop battery is flat is that it hasn't been charging.
But there must be items that I haven't thought of.

[Norman Wells]

Savings you make, though, may well be largely illusory. All electrical
power consumption in the home, whatever it does in the interim, ends up
as heat, every single watt of it. And although that doesn't seem
important in this heatwave, or even much, it's useful stuff for a large
proportion of the year, and would need to be compensated for by other
means unless you want your house to be cooler than it is normally. And
whatever you use to do that has to be paid for.

You'd be far better off by putting an extra roll of insulation in the loft.

[Martin Brown]

On 10/08/2022 12:34, The Todal wrote:
> On 10/08/2022 11:05, Martin Brown wrote:
>> On 06/08/2022 22:45, The Todal wrote:
>
>>>
>>> I'm rather surprised to see that the base-line of my electricity
>>> consumption after I've turned off every appliance that I can (other
>>> than fridges/freezers) is higher than I had thought.
>>
>> How high is it? My baseline load is 70W 24/7 and I have a hell of a
>> lot of smart gadgets, routers, IoT kit and emergency lighting in the
>> house.
>>
>
> Mine seems to be close to 200w. I can see that I have a lot of power
> supplies that I keep permanently on - for the cordless phones throughout
> the house, for the printers, laptop chargers, camera battery charger

It is highly likely that just a handful of them represent around 10W
each and the others are all noise <1W. Anything warm to the touch is
immediately suspect. Older TV's can have silly standby power by default.

There is usually a way to disable this excessive TV standby mode hidden
deep in the menus. Smart switches for peripherals are one option.

My PC surround sound amplifier takes the same power on or off (unless it
is playing really loud music). The on/off switch merely alters the state
of the "power" LED - it does not power down the amplifier inside!

Laser printers can consume insane amounts of power in the wrong standby
mode. Trade off is it takes longer to become ready to print from cold.
(I can live with that YMMV)

Conversely the main hifi power amplifier in the living room has a
standby too low for the power checking device I have to detect <0.5W.

> etc.  Many could be left switched off so long as I remember that the
> reason the laptop battery is flat is that it hasn't been charging. But
> there must be items that I haven't thought of.

It is actually bad for a laptop to be continuously on charge.

I know because that is how I destroy the batteries in mine. The thing
runs a fair bit faster when connected to the mains so spends more time
than is good for it in that configuration.

Modern chargers hardly draw any current when not charging something.
Older transformer based ones will always waste power when on supply.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Martin Brown]

That applies in our village hall which is solely heated by electricity.

It doesn't apply so much in a home where the options include gas, oil or
solid fuel for heating - all of those are substantially cheaper than
electricity for space heating (even when using air source or ground
source heat pumps once you include maintenance costs).

Light eventually ends up as heat but not necessarily inside the premises
where it is generated. Windows are transparent to visible light.

> important in this heatwave, or even much, it's useful stuff for a large
> proportion of the year, and would need to be compensated for by other
> means unless you want your house to be cooler than it is normally.  And
> whatever you use to do that has to be paid for.

Yes. But most other ways of generating heat is cheaper.
Burning scrap wood for example is free when I can get it. Even paid for
wood is much better than oil (but requires a lot more manual handling).

> You'd be far better off by putting an extra roll of insulation in the loft.

Loft is already insulated to beyond the building code. The next thing is
to super insulate the hot water tank. Solid Victorian engineering brick
and stone walls are a bit of a challenge but insulating them is a very
long term project that will require radical redesign of everything.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Roland Perry]

In message <td0db0$1mgc$2...@gioia.aioe.org>, at 14:54:39 on Wed, 10 Aug

2022, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> remarked:

>>Many could be left switched off so long as I remember that the reason
>>the laptop battery is flat is that it hasn't been charging. But there
>>must be items that I haven't thought of.
>
>It is actually bad for a laptop to be continuously on charge.
>
>I know because that is how I destroy the batteries in mine.

A laptop should have an ECO mode where it only charges to 80% of the
rated capacity, and reverts to trickle when it gets there.
--
Roland Perry

[Norman Wells]

On 10/08/2022 14:55, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 10/08/2022 12:47, Norman Wells wrote:
>> On 10/08/2022 11:29, Martin Brown wrote:
>>> On 07/08/2022 10:14, The Todal wrote:
>
>>>> It is rather frustrating when your energy supplier calculates your
>>>> monthly direct debit (which you can change if you don't like their
>>>> figure) on the basis that over the year you will use power at the
>>>> same rate as last year. That would be an appalling vista.
>>>
>>> It isn't a bad approximation under normal circumstances. I suspect a
>>> lot of people (myself included) will be using less this year than last.
>>
>> Savings you make, though, may well be largely illusory.  All
>> electrical power consumption in the home, whatever it does in the
>> interim, ends up as heat, every single watt of it.  And although that
>> doesn't seem
>
> That applies in our village hall which is solely heated by electricity.
>
> It doesn't apply so much in a home where the options include gas, oil or
> solid fuel for heating - all of those are substantially cheaper than
> electricity for space heating (even when using air source or ground
> source heat pumps once you include maintenance costs).

They don't come cheap. Their cost of installation also has to be taken
into account and written off over a period of years before you can make
any sensible calculation of 'savings'.

> Light eventually ends up as heat but not necessarily inside the premises
> where it is generated. Windows are transparent to visible light.
>
>> important in this heatwave, or even much, it's useful stuff for a
>> large proportion of the year, and would need to be compensated for by
>> other means unless you want your house to be cooler than it is
>> normally.  And whatever you use to do that has to be paid for.
>
> Yes. But most other ways of generating heat is cheaper.

Maybe so, but if anyone thinks they're saving 100 W of energy by turning
everything off that they can, they're deluding themselves.

> Burning scrap wood for example is free when I can get it. Even paid for
> wood is much better than oil (but requires a lot more manual handling).

But a lot less good for the environment:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/dec/17/wood-burners-urban-air-pollution-cancer-risk-study

>> You'd be far better off by putting an extra roll of insulation in the
>> loft.
>
> Loft is already insulated to beyond the building code. The next thing is
> to super insulate the hot water tank. Solid Victorian engineering brick
> and stone walls are a bit of a challenge but insulating them is a very
> long term project that will require radical redesign of everything.

And will cost far more than any energy you save. For every
'improvement' you need to calculate the payback time.