Charging for missed appointments
Happy Harper
(for example) dental appointment, over the telephone, then you didn't
turn up that they would only be able to charge for the missed
appointment if they made it clear to you that they would - i.e. it
became part of the verbal contract.
In any event I argued further that the dentist would have a duty to
mitigate any loss by utilising that appointment slot for another
patient, for example.
What exactly is the legal situation on this?
Cheers
Harps.
Stuart A. Bronstein
> Just had a conversation with someone, I was arguing that if you
> make a (for example) dental appointment, over the telephone,
> then you didn't turn up that they would only be able to charge
> for the missed appointment if they made it clear to you that
> they would - i.e. it became part of the verbal contract.
>
> In any event I argued further that the dentist would have a duty
> to mitigate any loss by utilising that appointment slot for
> another patient, for example.
If you don't show up and haven't cancelled the appointment, it will
be pretty hard for the dentist to find another patient to take your
slot. Do you expect him to go out into the street and hit someone
over the head?
To the extent he can't mitigate, the non-show patient is responsibe
for the full amount due for the appointment he missed, unless there
is specific consumer-related legislation changing that.
Jane
If there is a no show fee imposed then it must be Red Flagged in order
for the Denist to seek damages otherwise, it would be an uphill
struggle in the negative.
As to the issue of mitigation you are correct.
steve robinson
> Just had a conversation with someone, I was arguing that if you
> make a (for example) dental appointment, over the telephone, then
> you didn't turn up that they would only be able to charge for the
> missed appointment if they made it clear to you that they would -
> i.e. it became part of the verbal contract.
No they can charge you for the missed appointment , you failed to
keep to your part of the contract
>
> In any event I argued further that the dentist would have a duty to
> mitigate any loss by utilising that appointment slot for another
> patient, for example.
>
Only if you had given reasonable notice of cancellation phoning the
day before is not reasonable . my dentist requires 48 hours notice
excluding weekends and bank holidays
GP Hardy
> Happy Harper wrote:
>
>> Just had a conversation with someone, I was arguing that if you
>> make a (for example) dental appointment, over the telephone, then
>> you didn't turn up that they would only be able to charge for the
>> missed appointment if they made it clear to you that they would -
>> i.e. it became part of the verbal contract.
>
> No they can charge you for the missed appointment , you failed to
> keep to your part of the contract
What if the charge for missed appointments isn't mentioned in the contract?
steve robinson
This isnt a no show fee this is being charged for the missed
appointment which the dentist is fully entitled to do .
He/she was there drill in hand nurse at the ready , ready and waiting
as per contract so to speak and the op failed to honour his part to
turn up and be drilled
Might be a little different if its an NHS dentist , however if it is
i woldnt want to tick him/her off as they will kick you off the lists
and its going to be a nightmarre to find a new one (well round here t
is)
GP Hardy
> This isnt a no show fee this is being charged for the missed
> appointment...
There's a difference?
Mark Goodge
and typed:
If the charge is for the appointment (ie, the time allotted in the
dentist's schedule that day), then it wasn't missed. The dentist kept
it, the fact that the customer wasn't there to avail himself of it
doesn't mean he doesn't have to pay for it. It doesn't have to be
specifically mentioned in the contract in that case, as the service
ordered has been supplied and payment is due.
If the charge was specifically for *treatment*, then yes, if there was
no treatment then either no payment would be due or a contractually
agreed payment for breach of contract would be due. And such a clause
would have to be in the contract. But an appointment doesn't cease to
be an appointments just because one person misses it. Provided the
other person has kept the appointment then he has done what he is
being paid to do.
Mark
--
Blog: http://mark.goodge.co.uk
Stuff: http://www.good-stuff.co.uk
Roland Perry
15:15:11 on Wed, 27 Jan 2010, Stuart A. Bronstein
<spam...@lexregia.com> remarked:
>> In any event I argued further that the dentist would have a duty
>> to mitigate any loss by utilising that appointment slot for
>> another patient, for example.
>
>If you don't show up and haven't cancelled the appointment, it will
>be pretty hard for the dentist to find another patient to take your
>slot. Do you expect him to go out into the street and hit someone
>over the head?
My dentist is averagely busy I think, and yet it takes a week to find a
"cancelled appointment" slot if you have an urgent problem (one rung
down from an emergency). Given the relative shortage of dentists, I find
it hard to believe there are many without a waiting list for cancelled
appointments at short notice.
--
Roland Perry
Jane
there isn't one, my advice is the better choice.
Neil Williams
wrote:
> Might be a little different if its an NHS dentist , however if it is
> i woldnt want to tick him/her off as they will kick you off the lists
> and its going to be a nightmarre to find a new one (well round here t
> is)
The NHS rules don't allow for a charge for missed appointments, but as
you say they *can* de-register you. Mine does for a second missed
appointment (not the first).
Neil
Robbie
There is this:
http://www.dentalhealth.org.uk/faqs/leafletdetail.php?LeafletID=30
Specifically:
Question:
Can the dentist charge me if I miss an appointment?
Answer:
If you are an NHS patient in England and Wales cannot charge you for a
missed appointment.
However, if you are a private patient or an NHS patient in Scotland or
Northern Ireland and you miss an appointment or cancel at short notice,
the practice may charge you. Your dentist must have warned you
beforehand that they charge for missed appointment or late
cancellations. This is often done by a note on the appointment card.
I'm in England and have had the same (NHS) dentist for many years and he
has always had a policy reserving the right of charging for missed
appointments or those cancelled at very short notice where both were
without a good reason. I've never missed an appointment and have only
ever cancelled twice at short notice and have never been charged. I
assumed he did that because he could but that link suggests otherwise...
the information in that link is confirmed at:
http://www.dentistry.co.uk/news/news_detail.php?id=594
My dentist also offers private treatment so perhaps he (or his staff)
would never charge an NHS patient. After reading those links, I hope he
never would.
Ste
> Happy Harper <HappyHar...@127.0.0.1> wrote:
> > Just had a conversation with someone, I was arguing that if you
> > make a (for example) dental appointment, over the telephone,
> > then you didn't turn up that they would only be able to charge
> > for the missed appointment if they made it clear to you that
> > they would - i.e. it became part of the verbal contract.
>
> > In any event I argued further that the dentist would have a duty
> > to mitigate any loss by utilising that appointment slot for
> > another patient, for example.
>
> If you don't show up and haven't cancelled the appointment, it will
> be pretty hard for the dentist to find another patient to take your
> slot. Do you expect him to go out into the street and hit someone
> over the head?
A dentist touting for custom would hit him in the mouth, surely?
> To the extent he can't mitigate, the non-show patient is responsibe
> for the full amount due for the appointment he missed, unless there
> is specific consumer-related legislation changing that.
No, you are correct Stu. A dentist must take reasonable steps to
mitigate, but where the appointment is cancelled with little (i.e.
half a day) or no notice then it is unlikely that any reasonable steps
can be taken to mitigate.
And in any event, the dentist could always just refuse your further
custom if you have a habit of arsing him around - and I think in
practice that is what these fines are designed to deter, and I think
most dentists would waive the charge in the case of a reasonable
excuse.
Ste
wrote:
>
> If the charge is for the appointment (ie, the time allotted in the
> dentist's schedule that day), then it wasn't missed. The dentist kept
> it, the fact that the customer wasn't there to avail himself of it
> doesn't mean he doesn't have to pay for it. It doesn't have to be
> specifically mentioned in the contract in that case, as the service
> ordered has been supplied and payment is due.
I'm not sure this interpretation would stand Mark. The charge is
undoubtedly for the *service* that is to be provided at the time of
the appointment. Moreover, if the charge were for the appointment,
then the dentist would be liable if *he* were late or running behind
schedule.
> If the charge was specifically for *treatment*, then yes, if there was
> no treatment then either no payment would be due or a contractually
> agreed payment for breach of contract would be due. And such a clause
> would have to be in the contract. But an appointment doesn't cease to
> be an appointments just because one person misses it. Provided the
> other person has kept the appointment then he has done what he is
> being paid to do.
I agree. Fundamentally, it is the customer who has frustrated
performance of the contract, and the dentist is either due the price
or alternatively damages (even if this is not expressly mentioned in
the contract).
On the other hand, if damages are due, then the dentist will have to
show loss. That will undoubtedly be less than the price, and may be
zero if there were other customers waiting so that no time was lost
(and if the dentist's argument is that he would have worked for longer
that day, then he may just as easily have booked someone else in at
the end of the day).
Robbie
My GP does something similar - miss one appointment without good reason
and you will receive a polite letter. Miss two and you will be struck
off, unless once again you can give a good reason for missing the
appointment.
Mr X
"Ste" <ste_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:35196c46-5966-4233...@g29g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...
On 27 Jan, 17:15, Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
wrote:
>
> If the charge is for the appointment (ie, the time allotted in the
> dentist's schedule that day), then it wasn't missed. The dentist kept
> it, the fact that the customer wasn't there to avail himself of it
> doesn't mean he doesn't have to pay for it. It doesn't have to be
> specifically mentioned in the contract in that case, as the service
> ordered has been supplied and payment is due.
[I'm not sure this interpretation would stand Mark. The charge is
undoubtedly for the *service* that is to be provided at the time of
the appointment. Moreover, if the charge were for the appointment,
then the dentist would be liable if *he* were late or running behind
schedule.]
Is it? The charge could well be for the dentist's time. Why would the
dentist be liable for anything?
[On the other hand, if damages are due, then the dentist will have to
show loss. That will undoubtedly be less than the price, and may be
zero if there were other customers waiting so that no time was lost
(and if the dentist's argument is that he would have worked for longer
that day, then he may just as easily have booked someone else in at
the end of the day).]
The dentist kpe the appointment for the patient. The patient didn't turn
up, meaning that the dentist couldn't charge the patient for the cost of his
services (for example use of insturments) or any treatment. However, the
dentist also lost the income from another patient who could have come if the
appointment hadn't been blocked out so the dentist lost money. Therefore
the patient should pay for it.
Stuart A. Bronstein
>> To the extent he can't mitigate, the non-show patient is
>> responsibe for the full amount due for the appointment he
>> missed, unless there is specific consumer-related legislation
>> changing that.
>
> ....and if the dentist cancels for whatever
> reason......presumably the 'patient' is due some compensation?
The traditional remedy is for the patient to see another dentist, and
ask the first dentists to pay if the cost of the second dentist is
higher.
Roland Perry
Wed, 27 Jan 2010, mark <no-on...@noads.com> remarked:
>....and if the dentist cancels for whatever reason......presumably the
>'patient' is due some compensation?
Indeed. My dentist rarely cancels, but his hygienist rarely *keeps* an
appointment :(
--
Roland Perry
steve robinson
Does it need to be , the dentist has performed is part of the
contract as far as the ops actions allow possible failure by the
client to turn up is not the dentists fault
steve robinson
> On 27 Jan, 17:15, Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
> wrote:
> >
> > If the charge is for the appointment (ie, the time allotted in the
> > dentist's schedule that day), then it wasn't missed. The dentist
> > kept it, the fact that the customer wasn't there to avail himself
> > of it doesn't mean he doesn't have to pay for it. It doesn't have
> > to be specifically mentioned in the contract in that case, as
> > the service ordered has been supplied and payment is due.
>
> I'm not sure this interpretation would stand Mark. The charge is
> undoubtedly for the service that is to be provided at the time of
> the appointment. Moreover, if the charge were for the appointment,
> then the dentist would be liable if he were late or running behind
> schedule.
>
>
The dentist will have incured fixed costs which will be recoverable ,
however any costs over and above this wont be
>
> > If the charge was specifically for treatment, then yes, if there
> > was no treatment then either no payment would be due or a
> > contractually agreed payment for breach of contract would be due.
> > And such a clause would have to be in the contract. But an
> > appointment doesn't cease to be an appointments just because one
> > person misses it. Provided the other person has kept the
> > appointment then he has done what he is being paid to do.
>
> I agree. Fundamentally, it is the customer who has frustrated
> performance of the contract, and the dentist is either due the price
> or alternatively damages (even if this is not expressly mentioned in
> the contract).
>
> On the other hand, if damages are due, then the dentist will have to
> show loss. That will undoubtedly be less than the price, and may be
> zero if there were other customers waiting so that no time was lost
> (and if the dentist's argument is that he would have worked for
> longer that day, then he may just as easily have booked someone
> else in at the end of the day).
The dentist could show loss , salaries for staff for starters
at short notice its unlikely the dentist could fill the last
appointment of the day , and its reasonable to assume that not all
the customers will arrive early for there appointment .
Depending what the appointment was for it could fall between 10
minutes and an hour .
steve robinson
Yes , ones a set fee which may be difficult to enforce as any charge
has to reflect the actual loss the dentist has incured
steve robinson
Yes there is a no show fee is a set figure which may or may not
reflect the actual loss the dentist has incurred its usally
contractual in its nature but is difficult to enforce because it
could be viewed as a penalty something which is prohibited
Charging the actual cost of a missed appointment is not the same
although a similar outcome occurs
Stuart A. Bronstein
>> What if the charge for missed appointments isn't mentioned in the
>> contract?
>
> Does it need to be , the dentist has performed is part of the
> contract as far as the ops actions allow possible failure by the
> client to turn up is not the dentists fault
I don't see why it would be different from any other kind of
contract. In general it is not necessary to provide for a penalty in
case of breach. Absent contractual provisions to the contrary, the
law generally provides for compensation in case of breach.
peterwn
wrote:
>
> To the extent he can't mitigate, the non-show patient is responsibe
> for the full amount due for the appointment he missed, unless there
> is specific consumer-related legislation changing that.
>
If the dentist is running late such that he could not have seen a
patient at the appointed time or very soon after, there should be
partial or total mitigation. Similarly if the dentist could proceed
with some 'non contact' work.
If a dentist is excessively hard nosed on this, this would adversely
affect his practice. The dentist's options to enforce such a no-show
charge would be declining further work, listing with credit rating
agencies or court action.
Ste
> "Ste" <ste_ro...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> On 27 Jan, 17:15, Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > If the charge is for the appointment (ie, the time allotted in the
> > dentist's schedule that day), then it wasn't missed. The dentist kept
> > it, the fact that the customer wasn't there to avail himself of it
> > doesn't mean he doesn't have to pay for it. It doesn't have to be
> > specifically mentioned in the contract in that case, as the service
> > ordered has been supplied and payment is due.
>
> [I'm not sure this interpretation would stand Mark. The charge is
> undoubtedly for the *service* that is to be provided at the time of
> the appointment. Moreover, if the charge were for the appointment,
> then the dentist would be liable if *he* were late or running behind
> schedule.]
> Is it? The charge could well be for the dentist's time. Why would the
> dentist be liable for anything?
If the charge is for his services, then he must mitigate loss if the
contract is frustrated. If the charge is for keeping the appointment,
then the dentist is also liable if the appointment is not kept. If the
charge is for time alone, in the manner of an employee, then
conceivably one could have some rather expensive work done at the same
cost as a checkup.
> [On the other hand, if damages are due, then the dentist will have to
> show loss. That will undoubtedly be less than the price, and may be
> zero if there were other customers waiting so that no time was lost
> (and if the dentist's argument is that he would have worked for longer
> that day, then he may just as easily have booked someone else in at
> the end of the day).]
> The dentist kpe the appointment for the patient. The patient didn't turn
> up, meaning that the dentist couldn't charge the patient for the cost of his
> services (for example use of insturments) or any treatment. However, the
> dentist also lost the income from another patient who could have come if the
> appointment hadn't been blocked out so the dentist lost money. Therefore
> the patient should pay for it.
As I say, the question is of what steps the dentist can take in
mitigation. The dentist does not have an automatic right to a windfall
simply because the patient did not turn up.
Mr X
[As I say, the question is of what steps the dentist can take in
mitigation. The dentist does not have an automatic right to a windfall
It isn't a "windfall".
The dentist was ready to see the patient. The patient didn't turn up. Why
should the dentist be out of pocket? He fullfilled his side of the deal so
the patient should fulfil theirs. If the patient hadn't wasted the
appointment the dentist could well have been seeing another patient for
profit!
Roland Perry
21:50:09 on Wed, 27 Jan 2010, Mr X <inv...@invalid.com> remarked:
>The dentist was ready to see the patient. The patient didn't turn up. Why
>should the dentist be out of pocket? He fullfilled his side of the deal so
>the patient should fulfil theirs. If the patient hadn't wasted the
>appointment the dentist could well have been seeing another patient for
>profit!
I have rarely been to the dentist (or GP come to that) where there
hasn't been a queue of people waiting to be seen. So the dentist just
picks the next one in the queue.
His "loss" at that point is not having to work into his lunchbreak, or
evening, as much as he would have done with the 'missing' patient's
twenty minutes (or whatever) treatment to cope with.
Of course, this argument doesn't scale to a situation where two or three
patients in a row don't show up.
--
Roland Perry
Stuart A. Bronstein
>> To the extent he can't mitigate, the non-show patient is
>> responsibe for the full amount due for the appointment he
>> missed, unless there is specific consumer-related legislation
>> changing that.
>
> If the dentist is running late such that he could not have seen
> a patient at the appointed time or very soon after, there should
> be partial or total mitigation. Similarly if the dentist could
> proceed with some 'non contact' work.
Yes, that might be a good argument. You'd have to include whether or
not it would have been reasonable, after waiting for a time, for the
patient to have left if he hadn't been able to be seen on time.
> If a dentist is excessively hard nosed on this, this would
> adversely affect his practice. The dentist's options to enforce
> such a no-show charge would be declining further work, listing
> with credit rating agencies or court action.
We'be been talking about what's legal, not what's reasonable or
practical.
Stuart A. Bronstein
> "Ste" <ste_...@hotmail.com> wrote
> [As I say, the question is of what steps the dentist can
> take in mitigation. The dentist does not have an automatic right
> to a windfall simply because the patient did not turn up.]
> It isn't a "windfall".
> The dentist was ready to see the patient. The patient didn't
> turn up. Why should the dentist be out of pocket? He
> fullfilled his side of the deal so the patient should fulfil
> theirs. If the patient hadn't wasted the appointment the
> dentist could well have been seeing another patient for profit!
The point is that the dentist must take reasonable actions to the
extent possible that would reduce the amount of his loss and thus
what the patient would owe him for the no-show. If he has another
patient who he can put into that time slot, he should do so, and not
just take an extended coffee break.
steve robinson
> On Jan 28, 4:15 am, "Stuart A. Bronstein" <spamt...@lexregia.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > To the extent he can't mitigate, the non-show patient is
> > responsibe for the full amount due for the appointment he missed,
> > unless there is specific consumer-related legislation changing
> > that.
> >
>
> If the dentist is running late such that he could not have seen a
> patient at the appointed time or very soon after, there should be
> partial or total mitigation. Similarly if the dentist could proceed
> with some 'non contact' work.
>
> If a dentist is excessively hard nosed on this, this would adversely
> affect his practice.
Rubbish , most dentists are oversubscribed in the major conurbations
private or nhs
steve robinson
> On 27 Jan, 18:30, "Mr X" <inva...@invalid.com> wrote:
> > "Ste" <ste_ro...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >
> > On 27 Jan, 17:15, Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > If the charge is for the appointment (ie, the time allotted in
> > > the dentist's schedule that day), then it wasn't missed. The
> > > dentist kept it, the fact that the customer wasn't there to
> > > avail himself of it doesn't mean he doesn't have to pay for it.
> > > It doesn't have to be specifically mentioned in the contract in
> > > that case, as the service ordered has been supplied and payment
> > > is due.
> >
> > [I'm not sure this interpretation would stand Mark. The charge is
> > undoubtedly for the service that is to be provided at the time of
> > the appointment. Moreover, if the charge were for the appointment,
> > then the dentist would be liable if he were late or running behind
Its not a windfall if the charge covers only the fixed costs , doesnt
include loss of profit and any material costs
steve robinson
I think it depends if your dentist is NHS or Private , just like
doctors
Go down your local GP and its like a cattle market , pay privately
its rather different
steve robinson
ultimatly though the dentist unless he/she gets an emergency
appointment through the door has suffered a loss
Your also relying on the position that patients turn up early as
apposed to on time
Stuart A. Bronstein
>> The point is that the dentist must take reasonable actions to
>> the extent possible that would reduce the amount of his loss
>> and thus what the patient would owe him for the no-show. If he
>> has another patient who he can put into that time slot, he
>> should do so, and not just take an extended coffee break.
>
> ultimatly though the dentist unless he/she gets an emergency
> appointment through the door has suffered a loss
Normally, I agree. But it seems to me that if the dentist were
running an hour (or some other reasonable period of time) behind,
it would be perfect acceptable for a patient to then leave without
being responsible for the dentist's charges.
The immediate issue was, if the dentist were running late and the
patient could have properly walked out, his not showing up at all
could well mean there was no proveable loss.
> Your also relying on the position that patients turn up early
> as apposed to on time
That would be helpful, but not necessary. Some dentists keep a
list of patients who need an appointment and are willing to to be
called on short notice if an opening occurs.
Stuart A. Bronstein
>> As I say, the question is of what steps the dentist can take in
>> mitigation. The dentist does not have an automatic right to a
>> windfall simply because the patient did not turn up.
>
> Its not a windfall if the charge covers only the fixed costs ,
> doesnt include loss of profit and any material costs
If what he's asking for doesn't include any of his own lost time, you
may have a part of a point.
But ultimately that's not the issue. It's a windfall because he's
getting something for nothing. He has to show that he did what he
reasonably could to reduce the cost to the patient who didn't show
up. That's just basic contract law.
peterwn
wrote:
> peterwn <pmiln...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> To the extent he can't mitigate, the non-show patient is
> >> responsibe for the full amount due for the appointment he
> >> missed, unless there is specific consumer-related legislation
> >> changing that.
>
> > If the dentist is running late such that he could not have seen
> > a patient at the appointed time or very soon after, there should
> > be partial or total mitigation. Similarly if the dentist could
> > proceed with some 'non contact' work.
>
> Yes, that might be a good argument. You'd have to include whether or
> not it would have been reasonable, after waiting for a time, for the
> patient to have left if he hadn't been able to be seen on time.
If it went to court the onus would be on the dentist to show he had no
reasonable option but to twiddle his thumbs during the time of the
appointment ie mitigation was not possible. If he was running say a
half hour late and hence was busy during the say half hour he would
have seen the defaulting patient, the dentist could not show he was
out of pocket due to the default.
>
> > If a dentist is excessively hard nosed on this, this would
> > adversely affect his practice. The dentist's options to enforce
> > such a no-show charge would be declining further work, listing
> > with credit rating agencies or court action.
>
> We'be been talking about what's legal, not what's reasonable or
> practical.
>
What is legal - see above. It is also worth considering what is
reasonable or practicable. This is where McDonalds came unstuck with
McLibel, the company was focussed on what was legal, not the overall
effect on the company on running a couple of small time protestors
through the court, especially when legal costs had stacked up far, far
beyond what they could ever hope to get from the protestors (even if
the protestors had won the pools).
Stuart A. Bronstein
> If it went to court the onus would be on the dentist to show he
> had no reasonable option but to twiddle his thumbs during the
> time of the appointment ie mitigation was not possible. If he
> was running say a half hour late and hence was busy during the
> say half hour he would have seen the defaulting patient, the
> dentist could not show he was out of pocket due to the default.
I agree. But my view of his running late is a little different.
Because he is still out of pocket if he's running late, assuming
all his patients stay there long enough to be called in.
For me the question is, how late would he have to be running to
justify a patient leaving without being seen, and not having to pay
for a missed appointment, because the lateness is essentially a
breach of contract substantial enough to allow rescission.
> What is legal - see above. It is also worth considering what is
> reasonable or practicable. This is where McDonalds came unstuck
> with McLibel, the company was focussed on what was legal, not
> the overall effect on the company on running a couple of small
> time protestors through the court, especially when legal costs
> had stacked up far, far beyond what they could ever hope to get
> from the protestors (even if the protestors had won the pools).
Yes, in the real world it's definitely a good idea to consider the
practicalities when deciding how to proceed.
Graham Murray
> For me the question is, how late would he have to be running to
> justify a patient leaving without being seen, and not having to pay
> for a missed appointment, because the lateness is essentially a
> breach of contract substantial enough to allow rescission.
While the situation is a little different, I once had the first
appointment of the day but the Dentist was delayed in arriving. About 15
minutes after my appointment time, they asked if I was OK to wait and
offered to make appointment for me for another day if I did not want to
continue waiting. I waited and I think I was seen about 25 minutes after
my appointment time, with profuse apologies from the Dentist for being
late. Though in that situation, rescheduling the first appointment when
he was late would have meant that subsequent appointments would not have
run so late.
Neil Williams
> While the situation is a little different, I once had the first
> appointment of the day but the Dentist was delayed in arriving. About 15
> minutes after my appointment time, they asked if I was OK to wait and
> offered to make appointment for me for another day if I did not want to
> continue waiting. I waited and I think I was seen about 25 minutes after
> my appointment time, with profuse apologies from the Dentist for being
> late. Though in that situation, rescheduling the first appointment when
> he was late would have meant that subsequent appointments would not have
> run so late.
Or another patient might be the cause of the delay, if for instance
there were complications with their treatment. That isn't really
anyone's fault, though a loss may still be incurred if the dentist
charges for specific items (as many do) rather than per hour.
Neil
Neil Williams
> On the other hand, if damages are due, then the dentist will have to
> show loss. That will undoubtedly be less than the price, and may be
> zero if there were other customers waiting so that no time was lost
> (and if the dentist's argument is that he would have worked for longer
> that day, then he may just as easily have booked someone else in at
> the end of the day).
Or it may be zero because the patient then rearranged the appointment
to another time when there would perhaps have been no other patient to
take the slot, and as a result the dentist's income did not change.
So charging the full cost of the planned treatment might be
unreasonable, but I would say that a token charge for lost time
probably is not.
Neil
Jane
I have just looked for the case law to go with this reply, together
with the majority of the others, it would appear from the result of
such, that it is all chatter with no legal basis.
So back to my first post, therein demonstrates the correct answer!
steve robinson
Rubbish , he is getting paid for his and the staffs time which the op
booked , if the op failed to avail himself of that then thats his
problem not the dentists they were there as agreed
steve robinson
> "steve robinson" <st...@colevalleyinteriors.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >> The point is that the dentist must take reasonable actions to
> >> the extent possible that would reduce the amount of his loss
> >> and thus what the patient would owe him for the no-show. If he
> >> has another patient who he can put into that time slot, he
> >> should do so, and not just take an extended coffee break.
> >
> > ultimatly though the dentist unless he/she gets an emergency
> > appointment through the door has suffered a loss
>
> Normally, I agree. But it seems to me that if the dentist were
> running an hour (or some other reasonable period of time) behind,
> it would be perfect acceptable for a patient to then leave without
> being responsible for the dentist's charges.
>
Of course it would because the dentist has failed to meet the
obligations of the contract
> The immediate issue was, if the dentist were running late and the
> patient could have properly walked out, his not showing up at all
> could well mean there was no proveable loss.
Double talk , and rubbish
>
> > Your also relying on the position that patients turn up early
> > as apposed to on time
>
> That would be helpful, but not necessary. Some dentists keep a
> list of patients who need an appointment and are willing to to be
> called on short notice if an opening occurs.
What difference does that make to the ops case , unless one of those
patients can get to the surgery then its of no relevance , factor in
the costs of the receptionist phoneing everyone on the list until
they can find someone able to attend at very short notice and there
is a cost which the surgery could reclaim
Ste
> "Ste" <ste_ro...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
But he didn't fulfil "his side of the deal", because his side of the
deal involved administering treatment, and in the absence of the
patient that was not possible. There is no doubt there is a claim for
damages here, but that is subject to the usual rule of mitigation.
I personally find it hard to believe that the dentist just sat around
for 15 minutes and twiddled his thumbs. In reality he is likely to
have mitigated his loss (and his boredom), by either straight away
seeing to the next patient who was already waiting, or by using the
time to carry out other work - and indeed a court will say he ought to
have done this if possible. If he did so, then his losses are nought,
and so his compensatory damages are nought.
Mr X
The dentist was there ready to treat the patient. He was due to see a
certain number of patients in a day and he saw one less than he planned to,
thus costing him money. Even if he did other work he was still paying his
staff and running the surgery for the sake of the patient, costing him
money. Most dentists don't run a fully staffed surgery just for them to sit
there to do admin work.
Mr X
"Stuart A. Bronstein" <spam...@lexregia.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9D0D966AF111Cs...@130.133.4.11...
> The point is that the dentist must take reasonable actions to the
> extent possible that would reduce the amount of his loss and thus
> what the patient would owe him for the no-show. If he has another
> patient who he can put into that time slot, he should do so, and not
> just take an extended coffee break.
>
waiting outside their surgery in case someone doesn't show up. Even if
there was a cancellation list there would still have to be time to call up
the patients on it and for them to get to the surgery and be seen. Unlikely
in a 10min dentist's appointment when the patient doesn't arrive.
Mr X
"peterwn" <pmil...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:3387bea5-8b21-437c...@z10g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
If it went to court the onus would be on the dentist to show he had no
reasonable option but to twiddle his thumbs during the time of the
appointment ie mitigation was not possible. If he was running say a
half hour late and hence was busy during the say half hour he would
have seen the defaulting patient, the dentist could not show he was
out of pocket due to the default.
I don't agree.
The dentist was to see a certain number of patients that day. He saw one
fewer than planned and so was out of pocket. He was there and the surgery
was open. It is up to the patient whether they pitch up or not!
steve robinson
> On 27 Jan, 21:50, "Mr X" <inva...@invalid.com> wrote:
> > "Ste" <ste_ro...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >
> > news:361f6e77-76db-4788...@22g2000yqr.googlegroups.
> > com... [As I say, the question is of what steps the dentist can
> > take in mitigation. The dentist does not have an automatic right
> > to a windfall simply because the patient did not turn up.]
> > It isn't a "windfall".
> > The dentist was ready to see the patient. The patient didn't turn
> > up. Why should the dentist be out of pocket? He fullfilled his
> > side of the deal so the patient should fulfil theirs. If the
> > patient hadn't wasted the appointment the dentist could well have
> > been seeing another patient for profit!
>
> But he didn't fulfil "his side of the deal", because his side of the
> deal involved administering treatment, and in the absence of the
> patient that was not possible. There is no doubt there is a claim
> for damages here, but that is subject to the usual rule of
> mitigation.
>
> I personally find it hard to believe that the dentist just sat
> around for 15 minutes and twiddled his thumbs. In reality he is
> likely to have mitigated his loss (and his boredom), by either
> straight away seeing to the next patient who was already waiting,
> or by using the time to carry out other work - and indeed a court
> will say he ought to have done this if possible. If he did so, then
> his losses are nought, and so his compensatory damages are nought.
Ste you assume that another patient has arrived early
and your mistaken , he did forfill his part of the contract making
himself ready and available at the appointed time to administer
treatment , the op himself prevented any treatment being admimisterd
steve robinson
Got any references Jane because it seems at odds to contract law
whereby you can sue for damages if the contract is broken
Infact in the past i have done this myself and won the case when
clients have cancelled at very short notice .
Neil Williams
> I don't agree.
> The dentist was to see a certain number of patients that day. He saw one
> fewer than planned and so was out of pocket. He was there and the surgery
> was open. It is up to the patient whether they pitch up or not!
But the patient may well have, and pay for, the treatment on another
day when time was available. There would not necessarily then be
*any* loss.
Neil
Allan
> Just had a conversation with someone, I was arguing that if you make a
> (for example) dental appointment, over the telephone, then you didn't
> turn up that they would only be able to charge for the missed
> appointment if they made it clear to you that they would - i.e. it
> became part of the verbal contract.
[snip]
I've just read this thread (because it was of general interest; IANAL).
In the OP, the legality was stressed, rather than the practicality
element. I would demure that we tread a dangerous line if we consider
one without the outher.
Various thoughts (as a layman, and not a lawyer nor a health practioner)
1. Did anyone ask a dentist what they might do (before everyone goes off
burrowing down into a branch of case law)
2. Whenever I go to my (private) dentist, there are always two or three
people in the waiting room (so if there as a missing appointee, there's
usually someone else who could fill the gap). I'm usually there early,
and it's not uncommon that I get called in before my alloted time
because he's running early. Other times, there may be a slight delay.
Que sera.
3. Who is to say that there will not be events in the treatment of any
individual throughout the day that make the alloted appointments move
backwards and forwards.
4. I once turned up to an appointment (the first one on a Monday
morning), and they'd had a power cut over the weekend and had been
unable to fix it. He said I could wait, but didn't know how long the
electricity company would take to fix it. I had to go back a week
later. It's a 500-mile round trip to my dentist (cos it's still the
same one that I've always had and he's near my Mum and I've moved
elsewhere for the moment). Happily, I was going back a week later and
we rescheduled, so no inconvenience. However, had I not been going
back, should I have sought to recover costs? What a sad world that
would be, one where I get higher dental and insurance costs.
5. Whenever I go for a doctor's appointment (only 500 yards!), they're
always running late (usually 5-10 minutes, but usually persistent).
Since I'm self-employed, should I seek to recover loss of earnings for
the amount of time they're late. I think not. What a sad world that
would be (again).
Allan
steve robinson
I think people do it because of bordom or just to make a point
Ste
>
> The dentist was there ready to treat the patient. He was due to see a
> certain number of patients in a day and he saw one less than he planned to,
> thus costing him money. Even if he did other work he was still paying his
> staff and running the surgery for the sake of the patient, costing him
> money. Most dentists don't run a fully staffed surgery just for them to sit
> there to do admin work.
I don't dispute this, and I've taken this into account in my previous
answers. The fact remains that the dentist must mitigate - and that
basically means seeing to other patients, if possible. Only if there
are no other patients to see, or no other work to be done, will he be
able to show real loss.
Ste
> "peterwn" <pmiln...@gmail.com> wrote in message
He can fit another patient in at the end of the day.
Ste
>
> > extent possible that would reduce the amount of his loss and thus
> > what the patient would owe him for the no-show. If he has another
> > patient who he can put into that time slot, he should do so, and not
> > just take an extended coffee break.
>
> Where would a dentist find such a patient? They don't have reserve patients
> waiting outside their surgery in case someone doesn't show up. Even if
> there was a cancellation list there would still have to be time to call up
> the patients on it and for them to get to the surgery and be seen. Unlikely
> in a 10min dentist's appointment when the patient doesn't arrive.
In my dentist there is regularly a delay of 10-15 minutes, and many
people attend 10-15 minutes before their appointment (meaning overall
patients are sometimes arriving 30 minutes before being seen to), so
there is no reason in principle why a missed appointment would mean
the dentist sitting around with nothing to do. As for the
cancellation, you can fit it in at the end of the day.
Ste
wrote:
>
> Ste you assume that another patient has arrived early
Yes, because that is my experience, that the dentist is late, other
patients are early, or usually both.
> and your mistaken , he did forfill his part of the contract making
> himself ready and available at the appointed time to administer
> treatment , the op himself prevented any treatment being admimisterd
I agree, I referred earlier to the "patient frustrating performance of
the contract". A frustrated contract does not have the same
consequences as one where performance is rendered in full.
peterwn
> "peterwn" <pmiln...@gmail.com> wrote in message
No. If a dentist is 'running late' he is technically in breach of
contract to his patients.
If half hour appointments are the norm, then if he is running half an
hour late he would most probably held to be in breach of contract.
Therefore if he was unable to see the defaulting patient at any time
during the half hour (not even in the last minute) the dentisti would
be in breach of contract (even through no fault of the dentist) and
IMO unable to claim for a missed appontmnt.
S
wrote:
> Happy Harper wrote:
> > Just had a conversation with someone, I was arguing that if you
> > make a (for example) dental appointment, over the telephone, then
> > you didn't turn up that they would only be able to charge for the
> > missed appointment if they made it clear to you that they would -
> > i.e. it became part of the verbal contract.
>
> keep to your part of the contract
And what if you are there, but the dentist is treating other patients?
Can you charge the dentist for failing to keep his part of the
bargain?
>
> > In any event I argued further that the dentist would have a duty to
> > mitigate any loss by utilising that appointment slot for another
> > patient, for example.
>
> Only if you had given reasonable notice of cancellation phoning the
> day before is not reasonable . my dentist requires 48 hours notice
> excluding weekends and bank holidays
Stuart A. Bronstein
>> No they can charge you for the missed appointment , you failed
>> to keep �to your part of the contract
>
> And what if you are there, but the dentist is treating other
> patients? Can you charge the dentist for failing to keep his
> part of the bargain?
In theory you can if you can prove damages that the dentist could
reasonably have anticipated.