Neighbours' cats pooping in garden children play in

[Phil Mcbride]

Now that the weather is warming up, the possibility that my children
can play freely in the lawn is there. Unfortunately, at least three
neighbourhood cats have seen fit to come and go into our garden, and
poo in it. I have found their poo while mowing the lawn or tending to
the vegetable patches.

In particular some of the health implications of children playing
around cat faeces is toxocariasis and toxoplasma.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxocariasis

I'm sure the problem I have is not a unique one. What can be done
about this? Options that have crossed my mind are: antifreeze + tuna
chunks in a hidden corner of the garden, airguns, water sprinklers,
dogs (which will have to be toilet trained).

The problem is that me and my wife are not in throughout the day and
the only enduring solutions I can see is antifreeze or dogs.

Thanks for any advice.

[A.Lee]

Phil Mcbride <philmc...@gmail.com> wrote:

...cats in gardens

> Options that have crossed my mind are: antifreeze + tuna
> chunks in a hidden corner of the garden, airguns,

Unfortunately, both of these are illegal. You are unlikely to be jailed
for killing a cat, but you are likely to get a large fine and community
service, as well as a ban on ever owning pets.

> water sprinklers, dogs (which will have to be toilet trained).

Both of these are legal. Automatic water squirters would be the best
option. Dogs make a mess, and it is not known if they would deter cats
until you have them at home.

Also there are ultrasonic deterrents, which I dont think would be as
good.
Both are sold here:

<http://www.deteracat.co.uk/scarecrow_water_jet_pack.htm>
<http://www.deteracat.co.uk/ultrasonic_cat_deterrent_system.htm>

>
> The problem is that me and my wife are not in throughout the day and
> the only enduring solutions I can see is antifreeze or dogs.

Which are the worst solutions, as you can be fined for leaving poison
out, and the dog could poo , and certainly pee, anywhere in your garden,
something you are trying to stop.
--
To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'.

[steve robinson]

Cat pepper usally works pretty well, as does grease where they jump
over
antifreeze will certainly do the job but its ilegal.

Dont rely on Dogs i have a large GSD his best frend is a cat

[Him & Her]

"Phil Mcbride" <philmc...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:fd9adde5-b75d-45a7...@b26g2000vbt.googlegroups.com...
: Now that the weather is warming up, the possibility that my

children
: can play freely in the lawn is there. Unfortunately, at least
three
: neighbourhood cats have seen fit to come and go into our
garden, and
: poo in it. I have found their poo while mowing the lawn or
tending to
: the vegetable patches.
:
: In particular some of the health implications of children
playing
: around cat faeces is toxocariasis and toxoplasma.
: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxocariasis
:
: I'm sure the problem I have is not a unique one. What can be
done
: about this? Options that have crossed my mind are: antifreeze +
tuna
: chunks in a hidden corner of the garden,

You are joking aren't you? Have you seen the price of tuna?

: airguns, water sprinklers,

: dogs (which will have to be toilet trained).
:
: The problem is that me and my wife are not in throughout the
day and
: the only enduring solutions I can see is antifreeze or dogs.

Well, as the owner of 2 hunting dogs I can tell you that they are
not as good a deterrent as you would hope to cats.

My neighbour has lived in the same house for 76 years now and has
spent a fortune on every "guaranteed" method of stopping cats,
none of them are anything more than a temporary solution.

While I personally can't stand cats I would hope your suggestion
of a permanent solution was nothing more than a light hearted
comment but, if it wasn't, how many are you prepared to kill? How
long are you prepared to carry on? Are you willing to risk your
kids like that (you can't watch them 24/7 either) and what if you
get caught?

This problem with cats is pretty much here to stay.

Regards,

[Ian Smith]

On Sat, 02 Jun 2012, Phil Mcbride <philmc...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm sure the problem I have is not a unique one. What can be done
> about this?

We used to have cats visit the garden a lot. Throwing a bucket of
water over them whenever you see one seems to make the point - I very
rarely see any now, and when I do, they are tentatively walking along
the top of the fence or sitting on the roof of the shed. I can't
remember when I saw one actually set foot on the ground.

I find foxes a bigger problem - since I rarely see them, I can't tip
water over them.

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|

[Phil Mcbride]

A.Lee wrote:
> Phil Mcbride <philmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> ...cats in gardens
> > Options that have crossed my mind are: antifreeze + tuna
> > chunks in a hidden corner of the garden, airguns,
>
> Unfortunately, both of these are illegal. You are unlikely to be jailed
> for killing a cat, but you are likely to get a large fine and community
> service, as well as a ban on ever owning pets.

An airsoft gun with soft plastic pellets is unlikely to kill the cat.

The cats are often spotted perched on the garden shed. A door ajar
with a plate of antifreeze would be practically untraceable, and
intent to poison can not be established.

> > water sprinklers, dogs (which will have to be toilet trained).
>
> Both of these are legal. Automatic water squirters would be the best
> option. Dogs make a mess, and it is not known if they would deter cats
> until you have them at home.

What is the legal position if an owner's dog kills a neighbour's
trespassing cat?

> Also there are ultrasonic deterrents, which I dont think would be as
> good.
> Both are sold here:
>
> <http://www.deteracat.co.uk/scarecrow_water_jet_pack.htm>
> <http://www.deteracat.co.uk/ultrasonic_cat_deterrent_system.htm>
> >
> > The problem is that me and my wife are not in throughout the day and
> > the only enduring solutions I can see is antifreeze or dogs.

I don't mind investing in automatic water squirters or ultrasound
deterrents if I knew for sure it would solve the problem.

> Which are the worst solutions, as you can be fined for leaving poison
> out, and the dog could poo , and certainly pee, anywhere in your garden,
> something you are trying to stop.

Dogs can be toilet trained.

Frankly I do not relish the thought of being unkind to cats, but if it
is a choice between the health of my children playing in the garden,
and the health of a cat...

[Mark Goodge]

On Sat, 02 Jun 2012 09:45:02 +0100, Phil Mcbride put finger to keyboard and
typed:

>A.Lee wrote:
>> Phil Mcbride <philmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> ...cats in gardens
>> > Options that have crossed my mind are: antifreeze + tuna
>> > chunks in a hidden corner of the garden, airguns,
>>
>> Unfortunately, both of these are illegal. You are unlikely to be jailed
>> for killing a cat, but you are likely to get a large fine and community
>> service, as well as a ban on ever owning pets.
>
>An airsoft gun with soft plastic pellets is unlikely to kill the cat.

Even harming it is illegal.

>The cats are often spotted perched on the garden shed. A door ajar
>with a plate of antifreeze would be practically untraceable, and
>intent to poison can not be established.

It would be trivially easy for anyone with access to Usenet to establish
intent, given that you've already stated that you're considering it.

>> > water sprinklers, dogs (which will have to be toilet trained).
>>
>> Both of these are legal. Automatic water squirters would be the best
>> option. Dogs make a mess, and it is not known if they would deter cats
>> until you have them at home.
>
>What is the legal position if an owner's dog kills a neighbour's
>trespassing cat?

The owner of the dog is responsible if it kills any animal. Cats, by
definition, are incapable of trespass as they are not considered to be
subject to the control of their owner.

>> Also there are ultrasonic deterrents, which I dont think would be as
>> good.
>> Both are sold here:
>>
>> <http://www.deteracat.co.uk/scarecrow_water_jet_pack.htm>
>> <http://www.deteracat.co.uk/ultrasonic_cat_deterrent_system.htm>
>> >
>> > The problem is that me and my wife are not in throughout the day and
>> > the only enduring solutions I can see is antifreeze or dogs.
>
>I don't mind investing in automatic water squirters or ultrasound
>deterrents if I knew for sure it would solve the problem.
>
>> Which are the worst solutions, as you can be fined for leaving poison
>> out, and the dog could poo , and certainly pee, anywhere in your garden,
>> something you are trying to stop.
>
>Dogs can be toilet trained.

They still have to poo somewhere, though. And, unless you're going to take
them for a walk every day and make sure they only ever do it in a public
place where you then clean up after them, the chances are they'll do it in
your own garden at least occasionbally. And dogs are actually a far more
common source of toxocariasis infection in humans than cats.

>Frankly I do not relish the thought of being unkind to cats, but if it
>is a choice between the health of my children playing in the garden,
>and the health of a cat...

Lots of people keep cats and dogs without it it ever being a health problem
for them or for their own children. Animal poo is undoubtedly unpleasant,
especially when it comes from other people's animals. But it's rarely
anything more than unpleasant, and the very small health risk it poses
would not be any justification for doing something potentially illegal.

Mark
--
Blog: http://mark.goodge.co.uk
Stuff: http://www.good-stuff.co.uk

[NT]

On Jun 2, 9:45 am, Ian Smith <i...@astounding.org.uk> wrote:

> On Sat, 02 Jun 2012, Phil Mcbride <philmcbrid...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >  I'm sure the problem I have is not a unique one. What can be done
> >  about this?
>
> We used to have cats visit the garden a lot.  Throwing a bucket of
> water over them whenever you see one seems to make the point - I very
> rarely see any now, and when I do, they are tentatively walking along
> the top of the fence or sitting on the roof of the shed.  I can't
> remember when I saw one actually set foot on the ground.
>
> I find foxes a bigger problem - since I rarely see them, I can't tip
> water over them.
>
> regards,   Ian SMith

The cats still come, they just keep their distance when you're in the
garden

NT

[NT]

On Jun 2, 8:20 am, Phil Mcbride <philmcbrid...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Now that the weather is warming up, the possibility that my children
> can play freely in the lawn is there. Unfortunately, at least three
> neighbourhood cats have seen fit to come and go into our garden, and
> poo in it. I have found their poo while mowing the lawn or tending to
> the vegetable patches.
>
> In particular some of the health implications of children playing

> around cat faeces is toxocariasis and toxoplasma.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxocariasis

>
> I'm sure the problem I have is not a unique one. What can be done
> about this? Options that have crossed my mind are: antifreeze + tuna
> chunks in a hidden corner of the garden, airguns, water sprinklers,
> dogs (which will have to be toilet trained).
>
> The problem is that me and my wife are not in throughout the day and
> the only enduring solutions I can see is antifreeze or dogs.
>
> Thanks for any advice.

Some of those proposals are likely to not only get you a criminal
record but also extreme hostility from a neighbour or group of
neighbours. Tuna will also stink and bring in various pests, such as
rats, flies, maggots etc, and get you into trouble with environmental
health. And realistically, none of thme will prevent cats entering
your garden. If you stop one, there's no end of other cats that will
claim the territory. Poisons are probably a greater risk to children
than cats, failing to keep them in any way safely is often easy to
prove, and such a situation could in the worst case lose you custody
or seriously injure your kids.

Perhaps your children could be more fortunate than yourself, and learn
to love and welcome the visiting cats. This would be far more of an
asset to them than any very remote risk of pathogens. You're orders of
magnitude more likely to get an infection from a visiting friend.

There's not much likelihood of preventing cats visiting whatever you
do. Many people have put a great effort into this, and failure is the
normal result. You could however move the problem off the lawn by
raking a patch of soil somewhere, cats love to poop in fresh raked
soil. Kids arent going to want to play in poopy soil.


NT

[Norman Wells]

Him & Her wrote:

> While I personally can't stand cats I would hope your suggestion
> of a permanent solution was nothing more than a light hearted
> comment but, if it wasn't, how many are you prepared to kill? How
> long are you prepared to carry on? Are you willing to risk your
> kids like that (you can't watch them 24/7 either) and what if you
> get caught?
>
> This problem with cats is pretty much here to stay.

Until of course the fundamental disconnect between being able to own
something yet not being at all responsible for its actions is properly
addressed. That's the position with cats. You can legally own them,
and it's criminal damage to your property if they're injured or killed
by someone else. However, because they're wild animals, you have no
responsibility whatever for what they do. It's power without
responsibility.

If it were down to me, I'd tax them out of existence, just as I would
incidentally with Cyperus Leylandii. It's the only sensible way. Then,
if we're not completely freed from their blight, at least we're
compensated.

[Iain Archer]

Phil Mcbride <philmc...@gmail.com> wrote on Sat, 2 Jun 2012 at
09:45:02:

>Frankly I do not relish the thought of being unkind to cats, but if it
>is a choice between the health of my children playing in the garden,
>and the health of a cat...

The Animal Welfare Act 2006 will have you convicted of causing any
unnecessary suffering to a cat, or to any other domestic "protected
animal".

Sections 3 and 4 then run:

"(3) The considerations to which it is relevant to have regard when
determining for the purposes of this section whether suffering is
unnecessary include—
(a) whether the suffering could reasonably have been avoided or reduced;
(b) whether the conduct which caused the suffering was in compliance
with any relevant enactment or any relevant provisions of a licence or
code of practice issued under an enactment;
(c) whether the conduct which caused the suffering was for a legitimate
purpose, such as—
(i) the purpose of benefiting the animal, or
(ii) the purpose of protecting a person, property or another animal;
(d) whether the suffering was proportionate to the purpose of the
conduct concerned;
(e) whether the conduct concerned was in all the circumstances that of a
reasonably competent and humane person.

(4) Nothing in this section applies to the destruction of an animal in
an appropriate and humane manner."

If it were to prevent your child being mauled, I dare say most kinds of
action would be deemed proportionate. I don't know how much suffering
would be deemed proportionate to notionally prevent a theoretically
possible harm to your child of unspecified extent or likelihood. If you
had good evidence that the probability of diseases A, B, C ... being
acquired by a child from being in a garden used by a cat were p1, p2, p3
... per hour of exposure, and the figures were non-negligible, you might
have the beginnings of an argument in favour of your taking any
particular action.
--
Iain Archer

[Mark Goodge]

On Sat, 02 Jun 2012 11:05:03 +0100, NT put finger to keyboard and typed:

>
>Perhaps your children could be more fortunate than yourself, and learn
>to love and welcome the visiting cats. This would be far more of an
>asset to them than any very remote risk of pathogens. You're orders of
>magnitude more likely to get an infection from a visiting friend.

Children are quite a good cat deterrent themselves, probably more so than
dogs. I have seen the sheer panic on a cat's face as one of my daughters
shouts "Kitty!" and rushes towards it. :-)

[steve robinson]

Mark Goodge wrote:

> On Sat, 02 Jun 2012 09:45:02 +0100, Phil Mcbride put finger to
> keyboard and typed:
>
> > A.Lee wrote:
> >> Phil Mcbride <philmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> >> ...cats in gardens
> >> > Options that have crossed my mind are: antifreeze + tuna
> >> > chunks in a hidden corner of the garden, airguns,
> > >
> >> Unfortunately, both of these are illegal. You are unlikely to be
> jailed >> for killing a cat, but you are likely to get a large fine
> and community >> service, as well as a ban on ever owning pets.

Plus you risk revenge attacks

> >
> > An airsoft gun with soft plastic pellets is unlikely to kill the
> > cat.
>
> Even harming it is illegal.
>
> > The cats are often spotted perched on the garden shed. A door ajar
> > with a plate of antifreeze would be practically untraceable, and
> > intent to poison can not be established.

Place grease, jam, anti climb paint or the likes, cats hate being dirty
or sticky they will go else ware

>
> It would be trivially easy for anyone with access to Usenet to
> establish intent, given that you've already stated that you're
> considering it.
>
> >> > water sprinklers, dogs (which will have to be toilet trained).
> > >
> >> Both of these are legal. Automatic water squirters would be the
> best >> option. Dogs make a mess, and it is not known if they would
> deter cats >> until you have them at home.
> >
> > What is the legal position if an owner's dog kills a neighbour's
> > trespassing cat?
>
> The owner of the dog is responsible if it kills any animal. Cats, by
> definition, are incapable of trespass as they are not considered to be
> subject to the control of their owner.

Its unlikey that the owner of the dog would be prosecuted if a cat was
killed within the confines of the garden by the dog unless the dog was
encouraged enticed or trained to do so, the dogs a banned breed or
its ownerwasnt exersicing proper control over the animal

>
> >> Also there are ultrasonic deterrents, which I dont think would be
> as >> good.
> >> Both are sold here:
> > >
> >> <http://www.deteracat.co.uk/scarecrow_water_jet_pack.htm>
> >> <http://www.deteracat.co.uk/ultrasonic_cat_deterrent_system.htm>
> >> >
> >> > The problem is that me and my wife are not in throughout the day
> and >> > the only enduring solutions I can see is antifreeze or dogs.
> >
> > I don't mind investing in automatic water squirters or ultrasound
> > deterrents if I knew for sure it would solve the problem.
> >
> >> Which are the worst solutions, as you can be fined for leaving
> poison >> out, and the dog could poo , and certainly pee, anywhere in
> your garden, >> something you are trying to stop.
> >
> > Dogs can be toilet trained.
>
> They still have to poo somewhere, though. And, unless you're going to
> take them for a walk every day and make sure they only ever do it in
> a public place where you then clean up after them, the chances are
> they'll do it in your own garden at least occasionbally. And dogs are
> actually a far more common source of toxocariasis infection in humans
> than cats.
>
> > Frankly I do not relish the thought of being unkind to cats, but if
> > it is a choice between the health of my children playing in the
> > garden, and the health of a cat...

Have you spoken too the owners of the cats and explained the problem,

[A.Lee]

Phil Mcbride <philmc...@gmail.com> wrote:

> A.Lee wrote:
> > Phil Mcbride <philmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > ...cats in gardens
> > > Options that have crossed my mind are: antifreeze + tuna
> > > chunks in a hidden corner of the garden, airguns,
> >
> > Unfortunately, both of these are illegal. You are unlikely to be jailed
> > for killing a cat, but you are likely to get a large fine and community
> > service, as well as a ban on ever owning pets.
>
> An airsoft gun with soft plastic pellets is unlikely to kill the cat.

An airsoft gun is not an airgun, it is a toy.

> What is the legal position if an owner's dog kills a neighbour's
> trespassing cat?

None, you cannot help it if the cat is attacked in yor own garden. In
reality, the chance of a dog catching a cat are minimal.

[steve robinson]

A.Lee wrote:

> Phil Mcbride <philmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > A.Lee wrote:
> > > Phil Mcbride <philmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > ...cats in gardens
> > > > Options that have crossed my mind are: antifreeze + tuna
> > > > chunks in a hidden corner of the garden, airguns,
> > >
> > > Unfortunately, both of these are illegal. You are unlikely to be
> > > jailed for killing a cat, but you are likely to get a large fine
> > > and community service, as well as a ban on ever owning pets.
> >
> > An airsoft gun with soft plastic pellets is unlikely to kill the
> > cat.
>
> An airsoft gun is not an airgun, it is a toy.
>
>

The pellets can still inflict pain

[Ophelia]

"Phil Mcbride" <philmc...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:bbf44e8e-a218-4811...@n16g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...

This problem was being discussed in another group and one poster said that
he managed to stop them simply by using human urine as a deterrent.
Sprinkled around with his watering can. I suppose the cats are 'going' in
your borders where your children would not wish to play? Surely deterrents
are better than cruelty using anti freeze?


--
--

http://www.shop.helpforheroes.org.uk/

[Ophelia]

"Phil Mcbride" <philmc...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:bbf44e8e-a218-4811...@n16g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...

[Phil Mcbride]

Mark Goodge wrote:
> On Sat, 02 Jun 2012 09:45:02 +0100, Phil Mcbride put finger to keyboard and
> typed:
>
> >A.Lee wrote:
> >> Phil Mcbride <philmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> ...cats in gardens
> >> > Options that have crossed my mind are: antifreeze + tuna
> >> > chunks in a hidden corner of the garden, airguns,
> >>
> >> Unfortunately, both of these are illegal. You are unlikely to be jailed
> >> for killing a cat, but you are likely to get a large fine and community
> >> service, as well as a ban on ever owning pets.
> >
> >An airsoft gun with soft plastic pellets is unlikely to kill the cat.
>
> Even harming it is illegal.

Can you please cite chapter and verse of the relevant law?

>
> >The cats are often spotted perched on the garden shed. A door ajar
> >with a plate of antifreeze would be practically untraceable, and
> >intent to poison can not be established.
>
> It would be trivially easy for anyone with access to Usenet to establish
> intent, given that you've already stated that you're considering it.

Somehow I think it is unlikely...

> >> > water sprinklers, dogs (which will have to be toilet trained).
> >>
> >> Both of these are legal. Automatic water squirters would be the best
> >> option. Dogs make a mess, and it is not known if they would deter cats
> >> until you have them at home.
> >
> >What is the legal position if an owner's dog kills a neighbour's
> >trespassing cat?
>
> The owner of the dog is responsible if it kills any animal. Cats, by
> definition, are incapable of trespass as they are not considered to be
> subject to the control of their owner.

A friend of mine has mongrel dogs who killed his neighbour's cats.
They would chase the cats, bite them by the backs of their necks,
shake them around and toss them in the air.

Before this, the owner of the cats shook her head and denied any
control over the animals. After they started disappearing, she now
keeps them locked up inside her house.

>
> >> Also there are ultrasonic deterrents, which I dont think would be as
> >> good.
> >> Both are sold here:
> >>
> >> <http://www.deteracat.co.uk/scarecrow_water_jet_pack.htm>
> >> <http://www.deteracat.co.uk/ultrasonic_cat_deterrent_system.htm>
> >> >
> >> > The problem is that me and my wife are not in throughout the day and
> >> > the only enduring solutions I can see is antifreeze or dogs.
> >
> >I don't mind investing in automatic water squirters or ultrasound
> >deterrents if I knew for sure it would solve the problem.
> >
> >> Which are the worst solutions, as you can be fined for leaving poison
> >> out, and the dog could poo , and certainly pee, anywhere in your garden,
> >> something you are trying to stop.
> >
> >Dogs can be toilet trained.
>
> They still have to poo somewhere, though. And, unless you're going to take
> them for a walk every day and make sure they only ever do it in a public
> place where you then clean up after them, the chances are they'll do it in
> your own garden at least occasionbally. And dogs are actually a far more
> common source of toxocariasis infection in humans than cats.

If it is my own dog, I can ensure it is dewormed and only deposits its
waste in an appropriate corner of the garden. I can't say the same of
neighbours' cats.

>
> >Frankly I do not relish the thought of being unkind to cats, but if it
> >is a choice between the health of my children playing in the garden,
> >and the health of a cat...
>
> Lots of people keep cats and dogs without it it ever being a health problem
> for them or for their own children. Animal poo is undoubtedly unpleasant,
> especially when it comes from other people's animals. But it's rarely
> anything more than unpleasant, and the very small health risk it poses
> would not be any justification for doing something potentially illegal.

Are you basically saying I should accept the risk that my children may
pick up a nasty disease?

[Phil Mcbride]

Obviously you don't put out a bowl of antifreeze and bait at the same
time the children go out to play. As for the bait bringing in pests,
just change it regularly.

> Perhaps your children could be more fortunate than yourself, and learn
> to love and welcome the visiting cats. This would be far more of an
> asset to them than any very remote risk of pathogens. You're orders of
> magnitude more likely to get an infection from a visiting friend.

Even if the children do not catch a bug from the poo, having it in the
garden is a right nuisance.

[Iain Archer]

A.Lee <alan@darkroom.+.com> wrote on Sat, 2 Jun 2012 at 12:20:02:
>Phil Mcbride <philmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> A.Lee wrote:
>> > Phil Mcbride <philmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > ...cats in gardens
>> > > Options that have crossed my mind are: antifreeze + tuna
>> > > chunks in a hidden corner of the garden, airguns,
>> >
>> > Unfortunately, both of these are illegal. You are unlikely to be jailed
>> > for killing a cat, but you are likely to get a large fine and community
>> > service, as well as a ban on ever owning pets.
>>
>> An airsoft gun with soft plastic pellets is unlikely to kill the cat.
>
>An airsoft gun is not an airgun, it is a toy.

The term "airsoft gun" seems to have different uses. Those at
http://www.airsoftatlanta.com/Airsoft_Guns_AEG_s/371.htm
aren't toys, and a google search will find others similar to this one.
--
Iain Archer

[Lordgnome]

"Norman Wells" <h...@unseen.ac.am> wrote in message
news:eElyr.651402$Yw1.4...@fx12.am4...

>
> If it were down to me, I'd tax them out of existence, just as I would
> incidentally with Cyperus Leylandii. It's the only sensible way. Then,
> if we're not completely freed from their blight, at least we're
> compensated.

I think it is Cupressus, but I could be wrong. They are excellent trees when
planted in a suitable position. The rate of growth is such that they did not
take long to screen off an annoying "security" light beaming in to us from
500 yards away. (500 yds is the nearest neighbour, thank heaven.
How about a tax on unnecessary lighting instead?

Les.

[Sara]

In article <slrnjsjkg...@acheron.astounding.org.uk>,

Foxes are also more likely to be lawn-poopers. Most cats prefer loose
soil.

--
Armageddon can be louder than expected for such a small cat.

[Sara]

In article <9vrjs75gf6rnp63v9...@news.markshouse.net>,

Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:

> On Sat, 02 Jun 2012 11:05:03 +0100, NT put finger to keyboard and typed:
>
> >
> >Perhaps your children could be more fortunate than yourself, and learn
> >to love and welcome the visiting cats. This would be far more of an
> >asset to them than any very remote risk of pathogens. You're orders of
> >magnitude more likely to get an infection from a visiting friend.
>
> Children are quite a good cat deterrent themselves, probably more so than
> dogs. I have seen the sheer panic on a cat's face as one of my daughters
> shouts "Kitty!" and rushes towards it. :-)
>

Rog has mentioned that the lambs in South Wales have the same reaction
to me whenever we go back there.

[steve robinson]

Phil Mcbride wrote:

>
> Mark Goodge wrote:
> > On Sat, 02 Jun 2012 09:45:02 +0100, Phil Mcbride put finger to
> > keyboard and typed:
> >
> > > A.Lee wrote:
> > >> Phil Mcbride <philmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > >> ...cats in gardens
> > >> > Options that have crossed my mind are: antifreeze + tuna
> > >> > chunks in a hidden corner of the garden, airguns,
> > > >
> > >> Unfortunately, both of these are illegal. You are unlikely to be
> > jailed >> for killing a cat, but you are likely to get a large fine
> > and community >> service, as well as a ban on ever owning pets.
> > >
> > > An airsoft gun with soft plastic pellets is unlikely to kill the
> > > cat.
> >
> > Even harming it is illegal.
>
> Can you please cite chapter and verse of the relevant law?
>
> >
> > > The cats are often spotted perched on the garden shed. A door ajar
> > > with a plate of antifreeze would be practically untraceable, and
> > > intent to poison can not be established.
> >
> > It would be trivially easy for anyone with access to Usenet to
> > establish intent, given that you've already stated that you're
> > considering it.
>
> Somehow I think it is unlikely...

They have your name, ip email and the post is date and timestamped your
relatively easy to track down, anice easy one for the police to solve.

Risk is a part of our life, your children have a far greater risk of
many other things happening to them

[steve robinson]

This all brings to mind the sketch by Jasper carrott and the moles

[A.Lee]

That is a USA site, so not relevant.
You cannot sell realistic looking BB or airsoft guns here, they have to
be brightly coloured following implementation of the Violent Crime
Reduction Act, and, now can only be sold to over-18 yos.
They are, with some other restrictions, allowed to have a muzzle energy
of up to 1 ft/lb, which is not enough to break the skin of a human. Most
give far less energy than that, so are not classed as firearms, as they
have so little energy putput, hence can be toys.
Think of the old guns that would fire a cork - airsoft are the modern
equivalent of that.
There are numerous sites that explain this in detail.

Air-rifles can have up to 12 ft/lbs.
This is from one of the Firearms Acts, 1968 probably, I know the
air-rifle limit hasnt changed for a long time.

Alan.

[Phil Mcbride]

OK, please suggest which jurisdiction should be tasked with tracking
me down.

[steve robinson]

The police for a start, rspca but too name two (assuming your in the
UK) a quick google search lists every post you have made and to what
group and the subject.

[Mark Goodge]

On Sat, 02 Jun 2012 12:05:02 +0100, Phil Mcbride put finger to keyboard and

typed:

>
>Mark Goodge wrote:
>> On Sat, 02 Jun 2012 09:45:02 +0100, Phil Mcbride put finger to keyboard and
>> typed:
>>
>> >A.Lee wrote:
>> >> Phil Mcbride <philmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> ...cats in gardens
>> >> > Options that have crossed my mind are: antifreeze + tuna
>> >> > chunks in a hidden corner of the garden, airguns,
>> >>
>> >> Unfortunately, both of these are illegal. You are unlikely to be jailed
>> >> for killing a cat, but you are likely to get a large fine and community
>> >> service, as well as a ban on ever owning pets.
>> >
>> >An airsoft gun with soft plastic pellets is unlikely to kill the cat.
>>
>> Even harming it is illegal.
>
>Can you please cite chapter and verse of the relevant law?

The Animal Welfare Act 2006, Section 4.

>> The owner of the dog is responsible if it kills any animal. Cats, by
>> definition, are incapable of trespass as they are not considered to be
>> subject to the control of their owner.
>
>A friend of mine has mongrel dogs who killed his neighbour's cats.
>They would chase the cats, bite them by the backs of their necks,
>shake them around and toss them in the air.
>
>Before this, the owner of the cats shook her head and denied any
>control over the animals. After they started disappearing, she now
>keeps them locked up inside her house.

Your friend is lucky that his neigbour is unaware of the law.

>> Lots of people keep cats and dogs without it it ever being a health problem
>> for them or for their own children. Animal poo is undoubtedly unpleasant,
>> especially when it comes from other people's animals. But it's rarely
>> anything more than unpleasant, and the very small health risk it poses
>> would not be any justification for doing something potentially illegal.
>
>Are you basically saying I should accept the risk that my children may
>pick up a nasty disease?

I am saying that the risk is so very small that it cannot possibly justify
illegal action to attempt to prevent it. The incidence of Toxocara-induced
diseases in the UK is less than two cases per million of the population, or
approximately 40 people per year - the majority of which catch it from
dogs, not cats. By contrast, around 5,000 children a year are killed or
seriously injured on the roads. Your children are vastly more likely to be
involved in a serious road accident than they are to catch something nasty
from cat poo.

[Norman Wells]

Phil Mcbride wrote:
> Mark Goodge wrote:
>> On Sat, 02 Jun 2012 09:45:02 +0100, Phil Mcbride put finger to
>> keyboard and typed:
>>
>>> A.Lee wrote:
>>>> Phil Mcbride <philmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> ...cats in gardens
>>>>> Options that have crossed my mind are: antifreeze + tuna
>>>>> chunks in a hidden corner of the garden, airguns,
>>>>
>>>> Unfortunately, both of these are illegal. You are unlikely to be
>>>> jailed for killing a cat, but you are likely to get a large fine
>>>> and community service, as well as a ban on ever owning pets.
>>>
>>> An airsoft gun with soft plastic pellets is unlikely to kill the
>>> cat.
>>
>> Even harming it is illegal.
>
> Can you please cite chapter and verse of the relevant law?

How about Section 1 of the Protection of Animals Act 1911?

>>> What is the legal position if an owner's dog kills a neighbour's
>>> trespassing cat?
>>
>> The owner of the dog is responsible if it kills any animal. Cats, by
>> definition, are incapable of trespass as they are not considered to
>> be subject to the control of their owner.
>
> A friend of mine has mongrel dogs who killed his neighbour's cats.
> They would chase the cats, bite them by the backs of their necks,
> shake them around and toss them in the air.

He has legal responsibility for controlling them, and is responsible for
any criminal damage, like harming a neighbour's cats, which they cause.

> Before this, the owner of the cats shook her head and denied any
> control over the animals. After they started disappearing, she now
> keeps them locked up inside her house.

Perhaps she should have sued him instead and reported him to the police.

> If it is my own dog, I can ensure it is dewormed and only deposits its
> waste in an appropriate corner of the garden. I can't say the same of
> neighbours' cats.

True, but you're not allowed to do much about it. It's a fundamental
inequality in the law.

> Are you basically saying I should accept the risk that my children may
> pick up a nasty disease?

Sadly, the law gives you no remedy.

[Colin Jackson]

"A.Lee" <alan@darkroom.+.com> wrote in message
news:1kl21wl.cien6c158oem8N%alan@darkroom.+.com...

> Phil Mcbride <philmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> ...cats in gardens
>> Options that have crossed my mind are: antifreeze + tuna
>> chunks in a hidden corner of the garden, airguns,
>
> Unfortunately, both of these are illegal. You are unlikely to be jailed
> for killing a cat, but you are likely to get a large fine and community
> service, as well as a ban on ever owning pets.
>

>> water sprinklers, dogs (which will have to be toilet trained).
>
> Both of these are legal. Automatic water squirters would be the best
> option. Dogs make a mess, and it is not known if they would deter cats
> until you have them at home.
>

> Also there are ultrasonic deterrents, which I dont think would be as
> good.
> Both are sold here:
>
> <http://www.deteracat.co.uk/scarecrow_water_jet_pack.htm>
> <http://www.deteracat.co.uk/ultrasonic_cat_deterrent_system.htm>

I am using the ultrasonic cat deterrent and after a time they
get used to it. the water jet sounds the best, but needs to be plugged into
the mains via a hosepipe.

>>
>> The problem is that me and my wife are not in throughout the day and
>> the only enduring solutions I can see is antifreeze or dogs.
>

> Which are the worst solutions, as you can be fined for leaving poison
> out, and the dog could poo , and certainly pee, anywhere in your garden,
> something you are trying to stop.

[pensive hamster]

On Jun 2, 1:20 pm, "Ophelia" <Ophe...@elsinore.me.uk> wrote:
> "Phil Mcbride" <philmcbrid...@gmail.com> wrote in message
[...]

>
> > Frankly I do not relish the thought of being unkind to cats, but if it
> > is a choice between the health of my children playing in the garden,
> > and the health of a cat...
>
> This problem was being discussed in another group and one poster said that
> he managed to stop them simply by using human urine as a deterrent.
> Sprinkled around with his watering can.  I suppose the cats are 'going' in
> your borders where your children would not wish to play?  Surely deterrents
> are better than cruelty using anti freeze?
>

There's a whole Wikipedia article on this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_repeller

I have heard that lion poo deters cats. Don't know if this is an urban
myth or not, haven't tried it myself. 2cd Mumsnet poster below says it
doesn't work.

______________________
http://www.crocus.co.uk/product/_/tools/pest-control/silent-roar-lion-manure/classid.2000004185/
Silent roar lion manure
500gr box £8.99
Reviewed by BBC Watchdog (9/8/00)

Silent Roar came out on top in a survey by BBC Watchdog into cat
deterrents for the garden. They found that after just 3 hours of
putting the pellets down, no cats visited the garden!

Silent Roar used to be sold as a cat deterrent, however the natural
make up of the product has prevented the manufacturer getting the
product the necessary new EU certification for chemicals, as it's not
a chemical and the make up of every batch of lion poo is different as
it depends on what the lions have eaten. This means as deterrents are
regulated by the EU law. (Don't we all love some of the EU laws) the
product is now sold as an organic fertiliser - but the product is
exactly the same and nothing has changed! Apart from the fact we can
no longer legally say it deters cats.
_______________________


_______________________
http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/gardening/65526-cat-poo-in-my-garden/AllOnOnePage

Surfermum Fri 18-Mar-05
You need some lion poo. If cats see it they'll think there's a much
bigger cat than them around and it'll scare them off. Honestly! We
looked into this last year as next door's cats are always pooing in
our garden.

marthamoo Mon 21-Mar-05
Lion poo didn't work, orange peel didn't work, Jeyes Fluid didn't
work, bottles of water didn't work, CDs on strings didn't work, moth
balls didn't work, sticks embedded in the lawn didn't work...

had some success last summer with Olbas Oil on teabags, but you have
to keep freshening them up.
_______________________


_______________________

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_repeller#Lion_dung

Lion dung has been reported to be an effective method of deterring
cats, and has received support from the British organisation Cats
Protection. One anecdotal experience reported by the BBC[8] found that
it was not terribly effective however.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/1909229.stm
Cat-astrophic feline deterrent

A cat-plagued gardener has tested the "ultimate weapon" against
nuisance felines and concluded that it does not work.

A week ago Peter - who declined to give his full name for fear of
reprisals from pet-owning neighbours - spread lion dung all over his
garden.
[...]
The droppings are called Silent Roar, and can be bought at garden
centres and pet shops.

But are they effective?

"No, it hasn't worked," Peter said. "It's very surprising because it's
obviously a strong deterrent."

He added that eyes were following him as he laid down Silent Roar.

"It was quite frightening," he said. "Two of the cats next door were
actually watching me putting the dung down. You could feel that they
were thinking 'what is he getting up to? It won't work'. And it
hasn't.

"They sniffed. They were suspicious, and eventually they thought 'it
doesn't bother us' and they moved on. But they're around, they're
wandering."
_______________________


So maybe the secret is to make sure the cats don't see you depositing
the lion dung, they are quite capable of putting two and two together.

[Yellow]

In article <xn0hyv53...@reader80.eternal-september.org>,
st...@colevalleyinteriors.co.uk says...

>
> Phil Mcbride wrote:

> > > > The cats are often spotted perched on the garden shed. A door ajar
> > > > with a plate of antifreeze would be practically untraceable, and
> > > > intent to poison can not be established.
> > >
> > > It would be trivially easy for anyone with access to Usenet to
> > > establish intent, given that you've already stated that you're
> > > considering it.
> >
> > Somehow I think it is unlikely...
>
> They have your name, ip email and the post is date and timestamped your
> relatively easy to track down, anice easy one for the police to solve.

There have been two separate groups of incidences of cats being killed
with antifreeze in my locality so far this year and I can't say I'm
totally convinced the local police are going to be searching usenet for
cat death threats as an aid in their hunt for the perpetrators.

[BartC]

"Phil Mcbride" <philmc...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:945605d2-a6ec-478a...@j9g2000vbk.googlegroups.com...

> Obviously you don't put out a bowl of antifreeze and bait at the same
> time the children go out to play. As for the bait bringing in pests,
> just change it regularly.

Apart from anything else, this seems grossly unfair.

Why should you be able to get away with murdering your neighbours' cats (for
the comparatively minor problem of shit on your lawn; I get the same), but
if I did the same with my neighbours' barking dogs who drive me to
distraction, inside or out, I would be locked up? And they would just get
another dog anyway. A noisier one.

(BTW enclosing your entire garden with netting will completely solve the
problem with cats. Or at least the area where the kids play. Soundproofing
my house would cost a fortune and would not be effective because of the
construction. And I still get the problem when I step outside.)

--
Bartc

[Tosspot]

He's hiding behind TOR, but he does have a rent dispute outstanding :-)

<snip>

[Norman Wells]

Ophelia wrote:

> This problem was being discussed in another group and one poster said
> that he managed to stop them simply by using human urine as a
> deterrent.

A typical cat owner's response. Use orange peel, pepper, lion dung,
human urine, water pistols, ultrasonics, in fact anything they can think
of to delay the time when those affected use something that actually
works. Unfortunately, the only things that do work are those that are
fatal or near fatal, but they tend to be illegal. No deterrent has ever
been shown scientifically to deter cats. All we get is personal
anecdotes, and all of those come from cat lovers, who tend to be a bit
biassed.

> Sprinkled around with his watering can. I suppose the
> cats are 'going' in your borders where your children would not wish
> to play? Surely deterrents are better than cruelty using anti freeze?

Tell me one that's practical and has been scientifically proved to work.

[Phil Mcbride]

May be true but
1. If my children *do* catch something from cat poo, can I forgive
myself for not doing everything possible to stop them?
2. I don't like cat poo on my shoes, children, vegetables or garden.

[ARWadsworth]

Phil Mcbride wrote:
> Now that the weather is warming up, the possibility that my children
> can play freely in the lawn is there. Unfortunately, at least three
> neighbourhood cats have seen fit to come and go into our garden, and
> poo in it. I have found their poo while mowing the lawn or tending to
> the vegetable patches.
>
> In particular some of the health implications of children playing
> around cat faeces is toxocariasis and toxoplasma.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxocariasis
>

> I'm sure the problem I have is not a unique one. What can be done

> about this? Options that have crossed my mind are: antifreeze + tuna
> chunks in a hidden corner of the garden, airguns, water sprinklers,

> dogs (which will have to be toilet trained).
>

> The problem is that me and my wife are not in throughout the day and
> the only enduring solutions I can see is antifreeze or dogs.
>

> Thanks for any advice.

Cats do not poo on a lawn. They like to bury their poo.

I can also assure you that there are more than 3 cats visiting your garden.
There will be at least twice that number. You do not see them as they come
out at night.

You could also be looking at fox poo not cat poo when you mow the lawn. And
the other option is hedgehog poo, that looks like cat poo.



--
Adam

[Peter Parry]

On Sat, 02 Jun 2012 08:20:02 +0100, Phil Mcbride
<philmc...@gmail.com> wrote:


>In particular some of the health implications of children playing
>around cat faeces is toxocariasis and toxoplasma.
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxocariasis

The risk occurs mainly with Toxocara canis from dogs and foxes.
Puppies are the prime cause of infection when children pet them. While
it has been established that ocular toxocariasis is caused by Toxocara
canis, the role of T. cati in this condition is still unclear.
Wikipedia isn't always a very reliable source.

To put it in some degree of perspective, in the UK people with
toxocaral infections usually show no symptoms as most infections are
mild and go unnoticed. About 3 to 10%% of the population of the UK
test positive for Toxocara antibody showing they have had asymptomatic
exposure at some time.

Some 10 cases of Ocular larva migrans occur each year in the UK over
the whole population. The risk of blindness is now a very rare
complication of toxocariasis.

Toxoplasmosis on the other hand is a very common infection caused by a
common parasite (Toxoplasma gondi) TGondi can be found in
undercooked or raw meat, cured meat, such as parma ham or salami un
pasteurised goats' milk, cat faeces (including soil or cat litter
that is contaminated with infected cat faeces). "Organic" produce
often carry TGondii. Up to a third of the UK population will have a
toxoplasmosis infection at some point in their lives. In about 80% of
cases, toxoplasmosis does not cause any symptoms and a person who is
infected will usually not be aware that they are infected. Once
infected, a person is immune from further infection for life. The
group for whom it poses a greater (though still small) risk are
pregnant women who have had no previous infection.

Compared with this trivial risk each year 5,000 children under the age
of 16 die or are seriously injured on the UK's roads. 500,000 under
the age of 4 are injured in the home, 10 children die each year from
falling through a window or off a balcony, 50,000 children under the
age of 14 go to A&E because of a burns or scalds, 35,000 children
under the age of 4 fall down the stairs. 3,000 injuries are caused by
tripping over toys left on the floor, 67,000 children each year
experience an accident in the kitchen. There are far more important
things to worry about and far more effective ways of using your time
to protect your children.

The best way of keeping the sand clean (remember that urban foxes are
a significant source of contamination) is simply to cover it when not
in use. This has the advantage of keeping debris out as well. If you
are finding faeces on your lawn it almost certainly isn't a cat but
fox, hedgehog, badger or roaming dog.

Given the trivial risk a defence of "necessity" is not going to get
you very far.

[Mark Goodge]

On Sat, 02 Jun 2012 18:50:02 +0100, Phil Mcbride put finger to keyboard and

Only if you're willing to go to the same lengths to protect them from all
the other, far more probable, causes of harm. What are your plans for
eliminating risk from traffic, for example?

>2. I don't like cat poo on my shoes, children, vegetables or garden.

No, and nobody does. But merely finding something unpleasant is not a good
enough reason to break the law or engage in cruelty to animals.

[R. Mark Clayton]

"Phil Mcbride" <philmc...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:fd9adde5-b75d-45a7...@b26g2000vbt.googlegroups.com...

> Now that the weather is warming up, the possibility that my children
> can play freely in the lawn is there. Unfortunately, at least three
> neighbourhood cats have seen fit to come and go into our garden, and
> poo in it. I have found their poo while mowing the lawn or tending to
> the vegetable patches.
>

> In particular some of the health implications of children playing
> around cat faeces is toxocariasis and toxoplasma.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxocariasis
>

> I'm sure the problem I have is not a unique one. What can be done
> about this? Options that have crossed my mind are: antifreeze + tuna
> chunks in a hidden corner of the garden, airguns, water sprinklers,
> dogs (which will have to be toilet trained).
>
> The problem is that me and my wife are not in throughout the day and
> the only enduring solutions I can see is antifreeze or dogs.
>
> Thanks for any advice.
>

Air rifle?

More humanely some people use empty lemonade bottles filled with water to
deter them, but I don't know if it works.

[kat]

Phil Mcbride <philmc...@gmail.com> said

>
> Thanks for any advice.

How about you get a cat? They can be toilet trained, literally, they will
use the toilet, if taught. Females seem especially particular, I have one
who will come in from outside and use her litter tray. Obviously that has
to cleaned up, but you can get litter trays with tops and flaps to deter the
children from "playing".

Then your cat will mark her territory and fight off intruders.

I never see cat poo in my garden.



--
kat
>^..^<

[Zapp Brannigan]

"ARWadsworth" <adamwa...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:jqdj44$i82$1...@dont-email.me...

> You could also be looking at fox poo not cat poo when you mow the lawn.
> And
> the other option is hedgehog poo, that looks like cat poo.

That certainly explains why hedgehogs walk with an odd waddling gait.

[Zapp Brannigan]

"A.Lee" <alan@darkroom.+.com> wrote in message
news:1kl21wl.cien6c158oem8N%alan@darkroom.+.com...

> Phil Mcbride <philmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> ...cats in gardens

>> Options that have crossed my mind are: antifreeze + tuna
>> chunks in a hidden corner of the garden, airguns,
>

> Unfortunately, both of these are illegal. You are unlikely to be jailed
> for killing a cat, but you are likely to get a large fine and community
> service, as well as a ban on ever owning pets.

I agree - killing someone's beloved family pet is beyond the pale.

When we had problems with cat intruders, I just chased them out. A big
shouty man and a handful of gravel spanging off their jacksie makes them
exit pretty sharpish. When you've done it a few times, they stop coming
in.

[Zapp Brannigan]

"steve robinson" <st...@colevalleyinteriors.co.uk> wrote in message
news:xn0hyv1c...@reader80.eternal-september.org...
> Mark Goodge wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 02 Jun 2012 09:45:02 +0100, Phil Mcbride put finger to
>> keyboard and typed:

>>
>> > A.Lee wrote:
>> >> Phil Mcbride <philmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> >> ...cats in gardens
>> >> > Options that have crossed my mind are: antifreeze + tuna
>> >> > chunks in a hidden corner of the garden, airguns,
>> > >
>> >> Unfortunately, both of these are illegal. You are unlikely to be
>> jailed >> for killing a cat, but you are likely to get a large fine
>> and community >> service, as well as a ban on ever owning pets.
>

> Plus you risk revenge attacks

Perhaps a neighbour will be annoyed by the noise of Phil's children, and put
down some poisoned Haribo sweets.

[ARWadsworth]

kat wrote:
> Phil Mcbride <philmc...@gmail.com> said
>
> >
> > Thanks for any advice.
>
> How about you get a cat? They can be toilet trained, literally, they
> will use the toilet, if taught. Females seem especially particular,
> I have one who will come in from outside and use her litter tray.
> Obviously that has to cleaned up, but you can get litter trays with
> tops and flaps to deter the children from "playing".
>
> Then your cat will mark her territory and fight off intruders.

May or may not mark their territory and fight off intruders.

The six year girl old across the road once informed me "Adam, your Bilbo
comes into my house when you go to work and he eats all my Ellie's food
before sleeping in my bed with Ellie all day and he only leaves when you get
back from work"

How odd. As Ellie comes into my house when the girl has gone to bed and eats
all Bilbos food before sleeping on my setee all night with Bilbo.

--
Adam

[Ophelia]

"ARWadsworth" <adamwa...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message

news:jqikmq$374$1...@dont-email.me...

The cats must be very fat:)

Don't know if I mentioned it but there was a similar thread in a gardening
group. Someone there said that human urine on spread around can deter cats.
--
--

http://www.shop.helpforheroes.org.uk/

[Owain]

On Jun 4, 5:50 pm, "Ophelia" wrote:
> > How odd. As Ellie comes into my house when the girl has gone to bed and
> > eats all Bilbos food before sleeping on my setee all night with Bilbo.
> The cats must be very fat:)

No, because if each eats all the other's food, each cat still only
gets one intake of food.

> Don't know if I mentioned it but there was a similar thread in a gardening
> group.  Someone there said that human urine on spread around can deter cats.

It certainly deterred people from using the cash machine below my
flat's bedroom window once ;-)

Owain

[Ophelia]

"Owain" <spuorg...@gowanhill.com> wrote in message
news:68a85a8d-dd27-4f04...@w24g2000vby.googlegroups.com...

> On Jun 4, 5:50 pm, "Ophelia" wrote:
>> > How odd. As Ellie comes into my house when the girl has gone to bed and
>> > eats all Bilbos food before sleeping on my setee all night with Bilbo.
>> The cats must be very fat:)
>
> No, because if each eats all the other's food, each cat still only
> gets one intake of food.

But what about the exercise. Sleeping all day and sleeping all night ...

>
>> Don't know if I mentioned it but there was a similar thread in a
>> gardening
>> group. Someone there said that human urine on spread around can deter
>> cats.
>
> It certainly deterred people from using the cash machine below my
> flat's bedroom window once ;-)

ewwww lol
--
--

http://www.shop.helpforheroes.org.uk/

[kat]

ARWadsworth <adamwa...@blueyonder.co.uk> said

It must be love.... :-)

We did have a neighbouring cat visiting for a time, but these days scoots
across the bottom of the garden, and seems to come no closer.


--
kat
>^..^<

[steve robinson]

We lost one of our cats in February , he went out in the fog and never
came back, the neighbours cat comes round every day looking for him ,
plays with our German Shepherd , steals his breakfast then wanders off
for a mornings pussying.

[David D S]

One does not own a cat: a cat owns many houses which contains its
slaves who look after it.

--
David D S: UK and PR China. (Native BrEng speaker)
Use Reply-To header for email. This email address will be
valid for at least 2 weeks from 2012/6/5 14:14:33

[Him & Her]

"Ophelia" <Oph...@elsinore.me.uk> wrote in message
news:jqj45t$db1$1...@dont-email.me...
: "Owain" <spuorg...@gowanhill.com> wrote in message

:
news:68a85a8d-dd27-4f04...@w24g2000vby.googlegroups.com...
: > On Jun 4, 5:50 pm, "Ophelia" wrote:
: >> > How odd. As Ellie comes into my house when the girl has
gone to bed and
: >> > eats all Bilbos food before sleeping on my setee all night
with Bilbo.
: >> The cats must be very fat:)
: >
: > No, because if each eats all the other's food, each cat still
only
: > gets one intake of food.
:
: But what about the exercise. Sleeping all day and sleeping all
night ...

They're walking across the road twice a day ;)

[Ophelia]

"Him & Her" <conta...@group.ok> wrote in message
news:b7OdnQ6AVvJT81LS...@brightview.com...

Hmmm troo ... well there is that ... <g>

--
--

http://www.shop.helpforheroes.org.uk/

[ARWadsworth]

I only wanted to point out that owning a cat is not a guarantee that all
other cats will never visit the OPs garden. IMHO owning a cat (or being the
servant of a cat) has introduced lots of new cats to my house and garden.

Even when I had a real fighter of a cat other cats used to come round for a
fight!

The OP is worrying too much IMHO. The gf's lad has survived to 8 years old
despite handling cats, dogs, horses, snakes, rabbits, guinea pigs, rats,
mice, bearded dragons and me.

--
Adam

[Mark]

On Sat, 02 Jun 2012 18:50:02 +0100, "ARWadsworth"
<adamwa...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>Phil Mcbride wrote:
>> Now that the weather is warming up, the possibility that my children
>> can play freely in the lawn is there. Unfortunately, at least three
>> neighbourhood cats have seen fit to come and go into our garden, and
>> poo in it. I have found their poo while mowing the lawn or tending to
>> the vegetable patches.
>>
>> In particular some of the health implications of children playing
>> around cat faeces is toxocariasis and toxoplasma.
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxocariasis
>>
>> I'm sure the problem I have is not a unique one. What can be done
>> about this? Options that have crossed my mind are: antifreeze + tuna
>> chunks in a hidden corner of the garden, airguns, water sprinklers,
>> dogs (which will have to be toilet trained).
>>
>> The problem is that me and my wife are not in throughout the day and
>> the only enduring solutions I can see is antifreeze or dogs.
>>
>> Thanks for any advice.
>
>Cats do not poo on a lawn. They like to bury their poo.

The one's around here don't. They like freshly dug soil so they
destroy up all our newly planted seedlings and leave a large lump of
shit on the mound they have created.

I've tried virtually everything but nothing works (all the time and
with all cats). I even regularly soak the ones I catch but they keep
coming back.

The law gives cats special status. Owners can avoid all
responsibility as if they were wild animals but you are not allowed to
kill them as with other vermin.

>I can also assure you that there are more than 3 cats visiting your garden.
>There will be at least twice that number. You do not see them as they come
>out at night.

Yep. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIbkLjjlMV8 for an amusing
look at Cats.


--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) If a man stands in a forest and no woman is around
(")_(") is he still wrong?

[The Todal]

On 7/6/12 15:40, Mark wrote:
> On Sat, 02 Jun 2012 18:50:02 +0100, "ARWadsworth"
> <adamwa...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Phil Mcbride wrote:
>>> Now that the weather is warming up, the possibility that my children
>>> can play freely in the lawn is there. Unfortunately, at least three
>>> neighbourhood cats have seen fit to come and go into our garden, and
>>> poo in it. I have found their poo while mowing the lawn or tending to
>>> the vegetable patches.
>>>
>>> In particular some of the health implications of children playing
>>> around cat faeces is toxocariasis and toxoplasma.
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxocariasis
>>>
>>> I'm sure the problem I have is not a unique one. What can be done
>>> about this? Options that have crossed my mind are: antifreeze + tuna
>>> chunks in a hidden corner of the garden, airguns, water sprinklers,
>>> dogs (which will have to be toilet trained).
>>>
>>> The problem is that me and my wife are not in throughout the day and
>>> the only enduring solutions I can see is antifreeze or dogs.
>>>
>>> Thanks for any advice.
>>
>> Cats do not poo on a lawn. They like to bury their poo.
>
> The one's around here don't. They like freshly dug soil so they
> destroy up all our newly planted seedlings and leave a large lump of
> shit on the mound they have created.

I suppose if I ask you whether you have seen a cat shit on your
flowerbed and *not* cover it with soil, you'll say you definitely have
seen that happen. Yet many of us have cats that do bury their shit. And
there are other animals out there which leave shit on lawns and flower beds.

>
> I've tried virtually everything but nothing works (all the time and
> with all cats). I even regularly soak the ones I catch but they keep
> coming back.

Seedlings can be damaged by birds or by slugs and snails. But I'll
assume that yours are damaged mainly by cats. I suppose if I wanted to
prevent cats disturbing my seedlings, I'd probably rig up a lawn
sprinkler and a timer. But I might also grow the seedlings in a tray
until they were big enough to withstand pests. And I might tell myself
not to get stressed about it, whether the seedlings were damaged by
cats, slugs or an unexpected frost. Perhaps it really doesn't matter
that much. Not unless you dislike your neighbour, resent the fact that
his cat has access to your garden and see it as a territorial war.

>
> The law gives cats special status. Owners can avoid all
> responsibility as if they were wild animals but you are not allowed to
> kill them as with other vermin.

I know some people really hate cats, but I cannot really understand why
someone would want to kill a cat just for leaving shit on the lawn or
killing mice or birds.

A cat is usually someone's much loved pet. You should look at that cat
and be proud that you are doing your neighbour a favour by allowing the
cat to use your garden if only for a few minutes. And if your
neighbour's child reaches over the fence and takes an apple from your
tree your reaction should be "hope he likes my apples" and not "the
little bastard, he's stealing my property, if I let this go I will be
seen as weak and spineless, I want to inflict pain on him".

[Mark]

On Thu, 07 Jun 2012 16:10:02 +0100, The Todal <deadm...@beeb.net>
wrote:

How would this work? We've already established that water does not
act as a deterrent.

>But I might also grow the seedlings in a tray
>until they were big enough to withstand pests.

Most of the aforementioned seedlings *were* grown in trays. They'd
have to be huge to withstand the cats though.

>And I might tell myself
>not to get stressed about it, whether the seedlings were damaged by
>cats, slugs or an unexpected frost. Perhaps it really doesn't matter
>that much.

It does matter. It's annoying when you have spent weeks growing
seedlings and they are completely destroyed by cats. Slugs and frosts
are irrelevant to this discussion.

>Not unless you dislike your neighbour, resent the fact that
>his cat has access to your garden and see it as a territorial war.

It's got nothing to do with whether or not you like your neighbour or
are thinking about territorial war. Cats cause damage, full stop.

With regard to the particular cats that use my garden as a latrine,
then I don't know who owns them. None of my immediate neighbours have
confessed.

>>
>> The law gives cats special status. Owners can avoid all
>> responsibility as if they were wild animals but you are not allowed to
>> kill them as with other vermin.
>
>I know some people really hate cats, but I cannot really understand why
>someone would want to kill a cat just for leaving shit on the lawn or
>killing mice or birds.

I doubt most people would *want* to kill a cat. Some people may
resort to extreme measures though if all other attempt have failed.

>A cat is usually someone's much loved pet.

So what? If they love it so much why don't they ensure it doesn't
roam far and wide?

>You should look at that cat
>and be proud that you are doing your neighbour a favour by allowing the
>cat to use your garden if only for a few minutes.

No. If someone chooses to own a cat *they* should deal with the
excrement.

>And if your
>neighbour's child reaches over the fence and takes an apple from your
>tree your reaction should be "hope he likes my apples" and not "the
>little bastard, he's stealing my property, if I let this go I will be
>seen as weak and spineless, I want to inflict pain on him".

Straw man. We're talking about animals not humans here.

[The Todal]

A cat won't walk through a spray of water. It won't make a habit of
sitting in an area that is periodically drenched with water.

But if you've tried it and it doesn't work, fair enough.

>
>> But I might also grow the seedlings in a tray
>> until they were big enough to withstand pests.
>
> Most of the aforementioned seedlings *were* grown in trays. They'd
> have to be huge to withstand the cats though.
>
>> And I might tell myself
>> not to get stressed about it, whether the seedlings were damaged by
>> cats, slugs or an unexpected frost. Perhaps it really doesn't matter
>> that much.
>
> It does matter. It's annoying when you have spent weeks growing
> seedlings and they are completely destroyed by cats. Slugs and frosts
> are irrelevant to this discussion.

They are irrelevant only because they are natural disasters that you
can't help. Unfortunately you don't see cats in the same way. You see
them as trespassers.

>>
>> I know some people really hate cats, but I cannot really understand why
>> someone would want to kill a cat just for leaving shit on the lawn or
>> killing mice or birds.
>
> I doubt most people would *want* to kill a cat. Some people may
> resort to extreme measures though if all other attempt have failed.

Extreme measures that are wholly disproportionate to the damage that a
cat is causing.

Damaged seedlings? Annoying, but cats aren't likely to damage many, and
you can put sticks and stakes in the ground and sprinkle cat repellent.
Children playing on the lawn? A parent has to be aware that a lawn is
not like a living room carpet. It will be liberally sprinkled with the
excrement of many different creatures, including birds, and if you want
your child to crawl on the lawn, just spend a few moments checking that
the grass is clean, or supervise your child and then wash its hands when
it has finished playing.

>
>> A cat is usually someone's much loved pet.
>
> So what? If they love it so much why don't they ensure it doesn't
> roam far and wide?

Because it is impossible to ensure that a cat doesn't roam. I thought
that was a given. If you are saying that all cats should be kept in
houses and not let out, then you are asking for a radical change of
culture and custom. It's not unlike saying that because a child
occasionally climbs over your fence and spoils your petunias (obviously
far more damage than a cat would cause) there should be a law saying
that all children must be kept indoors or, if outdoors, should always be
with a supervising adult.

>
>> You should look at that cat
>> and be proud that you are doing your neighbour a favour by allowing the
>> cat to use your garden if only for a few minutes.
>
> No. If someone chooses to own a cat *they* should deal with the
> excrement.
>
>> And if your
>> neighbour's child reaches over the fence and takes an apple from your
>> tree your reaction should be "hope he likes my apples" and not "the
>> little bastard, he's stealing my property, if I let this go I will be
>> seen as weak and spineless, I want to inflict pain on him".
>
> Straw man. We're talking about animals not humans here.

Ah, there's your problem. You have completely forgotten, or prefer not
to acknowledge, that we are talking about humans not animals. Cats are
rarely strays. They are usually pets. They are important to their
owners. They are, in many cases, as important to their owners as your
children are to you. I daresay my dislike for dogs may equal the dislike
some people feel for cats. Dogs bark too loudly. When I walk in my
garden I want to experience peace and quiet, not the sound of a barking
dog scrabbling at the fence because it sees me as an intruder. But I
don't demand that my neighbour keeps the dog quiet or locks it in the
house. I accept that the dog is a much loved pet and that I must adjust
my expectations and get used to it. You may say that my choices are up
to me, and that you aren't prepared to make allowances for cats.
Unfortunately though, you have no choice. The law offers you no
recourse. And you really don't want to spend your life thinking about
cats and how to repel them.

[Mark]

On Thu, 07 Jun 2012 18:05:05 +0100, The Todal <deadm...@beeb.net>

They *are* trespassers.

>>>
>>> I know some people really hate cats, but I cannot really understand why
>>> someone would want to kill a cat just for leaving shit on the lawn or
>>> killing mice or birds.
>>
>> I doubt most people would *want* to kill a cat. Some people may
>> resort to extreme measures though if all other attempt have failed.
>
>Extreme measures that are wholly disproportionate to the damage that a
>cat is causing.

I am not condoning extreme action and I have not tried such measures.
However I can understand the desperation that people feel when they
have tried all the moderate measures without success.

>Damaged seedlings? Annoying, but cats aren't likely to damage many, and
>you can put sticks and stakes in the ground and sprinkle cat repellent.

Cats have often damaged *all* my seedlings and it is more than
annoying as it costs me money replacing them. If often costs me a lot
more since I have to buy fully grown plants because there would not be
time to grow more from seed.

Cat repellent is completely useless and sticks only work some of the
time.

[-snip-]

>>
>>> A cat is usually someone's much loved pet.
>>
>> So what? If they love it so much why don't they ensure it doesn't
>> roam far and wide?
>
>Because it is impossible to ensure that a cat doesn't roam. I thought
>that was a given.

If this is true then it must also be impossible to stop a cat entering
one's garden. However I disagree.

>If you are saying that all cats should be kept in
>houses and not let out, then you are asking for a radical change of
>culture and custom.

Yes. However owners could use netting and other measures to prevent
their cat leaving the garden and ensure the cat is in during the
night. It would be a lot easier for a cat owner to prevent their cat
leaving their property than for every other person in the area to have
to take measures to prevent cats entering theirs. If someone chooses
to own a cat they do need to take some responsibility.

>It's not unlike saying that because a child
>occasionally climbs over your fence and spoils your petunias (obviously
>far more damage than a cat would cause) there should be a law saying
>that all children must be kept indoors or, if outdoors, should always be
>with a supervising adult.

Analogies with humans are irrelevant.

>>
>>> You should look at that cat
>>> and be proud that you are doing your neighbour a favour by allowing the
>>> cat to use your garden if only for a few minutes.
>>
>> No. If someone chooses to own a cat *they* should deal with the
>> excrement.
>>
>>> And if your
>>> neighbour's child reaches over the fence and takes an apple from your
>>> tree your reaction should be "hope he likes my apples" and not "the
>>> little bastard, he's stealing my property, if I let this go I will be
>>> seen as weak and spineless, I want to inflict pain on him".
>>
>> Straw man. We're talking about animals not humans here.
>
>Ah, there's your problem. You have completely forgotten, or prefer not
>to acknowledge, that we are talking about humans not animals.

No. I am definetly talking about cats not people.

>Cats are
>rarely strays. They are usually pets. They are important to their
>owners.

However they are not important to people who don't own them. Look at
it from a non cat-owner's perspective. They come into my garden
despite me taking measures to prevent them. They leave excrement and
damage my property. There is no significant difference between them
and other vermin such as foxes and rats.

>I daresay my dislike for dogs may equal the dislike
>some people feel for cats. Dogs bark too loudly. When I walk in my
>garden I want to experience peace and quiet, not the sound of a barking
>dog scrabbling at the fence because it sees me as an intruder. But I
>don't demand that my neighbour keeps the dog quiet or locks it in the
>house. I accept that the dog is a much loved pet and that I must adjust
>my expectations and get used to it. You may say that my choices are up
>to me, and that you aren't prepared to make allowances for cats.

Why should I make allowances for cats? I don't make allowances for
foxes, rats and burglars.

>Unfortunately though, you have no choice. The law offers you no
>recourse.

You are correct. I strongly feel that the law should be changed to
clarify whether a cat is a pet or a wild animal.

>And you really don't want to spend your life thinking about
>cats and how to repel them.

Even though it costs me money?

And if a dog got into your garden then you probably would have
recourse in law.

[kat]

ARWadsworth <adamwa...@blueyonder.co.uk> said

> I only wanted to point out that owning a cat is not a guarantee that
> all other cats will never visit the OPs garden. IMHO owning a cat (or
> being the servant of a cat) has introduced lots of new cats to my
> house and garden.
>

Over all the (many ) years we have had assorted cats we haven't had many
visitors. The only persistent and accepted one eventually moved in with us,
after doing things like sleeping on the car wheel in midwinter. He slid in
the door one day and I didn't realise and went out. he stayed. Our current
cat didn't mind as long as we fed him in a place where the new one didn't
get to - on top of the oven housing - as otherwise his food would be gone.
The vet reckoned he must have been lost in a house move - he was a well
cared for neutered ginger tom - and I think he was right because a couple of
years later we moved, and he cried for 24 hours and refused to go outside
for a week.

Our current 2 are brother and sister, and not keen on other cats at all.
There are quite a few around, but only one has been near the place in
months. And nowadays scoots across the bottom of the garden and out again.
I wouldn't describe either of mine as fighters, but they certainly defend
themselves.

And the only poop on the lawn is from hedgehogs.

--
kat
>^..^<

[The Todal]

We have two cats and there are at least three others that visit our
garden. The only poop on our lawn is extremely foul-smelling and I think
that probably comes from foxes (a fox regularly trots across our garden
at any time of the day).

I appreciate I may be regarded as a deluded cat-lover, minimising the
harm that cats do. I have to admit that I haven't planted seedlings in
a flower bed and I don't know what would happen if I did. Much to my
regret, we have a litter tray indoors and the cats use it, so maybe they
have less need to do it outdoors. We always have our cats come in at
night, and maybe that could help to reduce any damage.

[kat]

The Todal <deadm...@beeb.net> said

I have planted the herbs I mentioned, they were mostly a reasonable size ans
unlikely to be destroyed anyway, but there was plenty of room around them to
use, and it hasn't been. I tend to put flowers in pots and shrubs and
perennials in the garden but that has nothng to do with cats and a lot to do
with weeds. In the days when I did have flower beds I had no problems.
I did plan a small veggie/fruit patch this year, but so far due to the
weather, the hosepipe ban, and not getting on with things due to a severe
cold, it has the fruit bushes and some runner beans and nothing else. But
it never occurred to me to worry about cats! Slugs and snails, yes.

I am sure I am a cat lover and maybe deluded, but I just haven't had
problems myself, so....

We have 2 cats, and a litter tray. The girl cat uses it to poop in, every
day. She will use it outside if I put it there. We got one with a top on,
but did take the flap off. Both our cats are large. Not fat, just long and
tall, and she found it a squeeze I think with the flap on. Her brother
doesn't use it, he'd find it most uncomfortable. He wouldn't use a larger
one with no top on, you could see he found it hard to get a good position.
Yet he had used one when young. We got them from Cats Protection when they
were a year old, and they had been house cats, or more precisely, flat cats,
living with an old man who had to get them rehomed when he went into
hospital and care. But George has grown since then.

We were advised to keep them in at night and for a long time we did. Then
George worked out how the slider worked and unlocked the cat flap. Later
models I have seen don't have a slider, if they fit the door hole we might
get a new one, the current one was supplied with the door. But they
generally spend they night indoors these days, at least after midnight. I
don't think it makes much difference to how much damage they might do,
though

I still don't see how we can trap them in the garden. It would need a lot
of net to enclose my back garden and there is still the risk of them
slipping out the side gate when I take the bins out! Add to that, my
neighbour is replacing the fence. Slowly. With a gap underneath big enough
for a cat. And a place where a plank falls down regularly and their dog
comes in to see us. A smaller cage? Divide our garden in half and need a
door? It gets impractical - and it won't help people troubled by foxes etc.


--
kat
>^..^<

[John]

On Sat, 02 Jun 2012 18:50:02 +0100, Phil Mcbride
<philmc...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
>Mark Goodge wrote:
>> On Sat, 02 Jun 2012 12:05:02 +0100, Phil Mcbride put finger to keyboard and

>> typed:
>>
>> >
>> >Mark Goodge wrote:
>> >> On Sat, 02 Jun 2012 09:45:02 +0100, Phil Mcbride put finger to keyboard and
>> >> typed:
>> >>
>> >> >A.Lee wrote:
>> >> >> Phil Mcbride <philmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ...cats in gardens

>> >> >> > Options that have crossed my mind are: antifreeze + tuna
>> >> >> > chunks in a hidden corner of the garden, airguns,
>> >> >>

>> >> >> Unfortunately, both of these are illegal. You are unlikely to be jailed
>> >> >> for killing a cat, but you are likely to get a large fine and community
>> >> >> service, as well as a ban on ever owning pets.
>> >> >

>> >> >An airsoft gun with soft plastic pellets is unlikely to kill the cat.
>> >>
>> >> Even harming it is illegal.
>> >
>> >Can you please cite chapter and verse of the relevant law?
>>
>> The Animal Welfare Act 2006, Section 4.
>>
>> >> The owner of the dog is responsible if it kills any animal. Cats, by
>> >> definition, are incapable of trespass as they are not considered to be
>> >> subject to the control of their owner.
>> >
>> >A friend of mine has mongrel dogs who killed his neighbour's cats.
>> >They would chase the cats, bite them by the backs of their necks,
>> >shake them around and toss them in the air.
>> >
>> >Before this, the owner of the cats shook her head and denied any
>> >control over the animals. After they started disappearing, she now
>> >keeps them locked up inside her house.
>>
>> Your friend is lucky that his neigbour is unaware of the law.
>>
>> >> Lots of people keep cats and dogs without it it ever being a health problem
>> >> for them or for their own children. Animal poo is undoubtedly unpleasant,
>> >> especially when it comes from other people's animals. But it's rarely
>> >> anything more than unpleasant, and the very small health risk it poses
>> >> would not be any justification for doing something potentially illegal.
>> >
>> >Are you basically saying I should accept the risk that my children may
>> >pick up a nasty disease?

>>
>> I am saying that the risk is so very small that it cannot possibly justify
>> illegal action to attempt to prevent it. The incidence of Toxocara-induced
>> diseases in the UK is less than two cases per million of the population, or
>> approximately 40 people per year - the majority of which catch it from
>> dogs, not cats. By contrast, around 5,000 children a year are killed or
>> seriously injured on the roads. Your children are vastly more likely to be
>> involved in a serious road accident than they are to catch something nasty
>> from cat poo.
>
>May be true but
>1. If my children *do* catch something from cat poo, can I forgive
>myself for not doing everything possible to stop them?

>2. I don't like cat poo on my shoes, children, vegetables or garden.

Did you actually post in this forum for legal advice, or just to
engage in a protracted discussion about why you dislike cats?

[Percy Picacity]

The discussion is only protracted because people seek to defend the
indefensible. If cats were an exotic species, like pythons, or another
destructive native species like polecats, then people would have to
keep them caged or face prosecution. Only farmers should be allowed
uncaged cats and I might vote for a politician who supported such a law
change.

--

Percy Picacity

[Iain Archer]

Mark <i...@dontgetlotsofspamanymore.invalid> wrote on Fri, 8 Jun 2012 at
09:20:02:

>On Thu, 07 Jun 2012 18:05:05 +0100, The Todal <deadm...@beeb.net>
>wrote:

>Why should I make allowances for cats? I don't make allowances for
>foxes, rats and burglars.
>
>>Unfortunately though, you have no choice. The law offers you no
>>recourse.
>
>You are correct. I strongly feel that the law should be changed to
>clarify whether a cat is a pet or a wild animal.

There is already some clarity.

The Animal Welfare Act 2006 (Schedule 3, para.13) amends the Wild
Mammals (Protection) Act 1996 to define wild mammals as 'any mammal
which is not a “protected animal” within the meaning of the Animal
Welfare Act 2006”'.

Section 2 of the Animal Welfare Act 2006 says:

An animal is a “protected animal” for the purposes of this Act if—
(a) it is of a kind which is commonly domesticated in the British
Islands,
(b) it is under the control of man whether on a permanent or temporary
basis, or
(c) it is not living in a wild state.
--
Iain Archer

[The Todal]

On 8/6/12 12:15, Percy Picacity wrote:
> On 2012-06-08 11:00:06 +0000, John said:
>
>> On Sat, 02 Jun 2012 18:50:02 +0100, Phil Mcbride
>> <philmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> May be true but
>>> 1. If my children *do* catch something from cat poo, can I forgive
>>> myself for not doing everything possible to stop them?
>>> 2. I don't like cat poo on my shoes, children, vegetables or garden.
>>
>> Did you actually post in this forum for legal advice, or just to
>> engage in a protracted discussion about why you dislike cats?
>
> The discussion is only protracted because people seek to defend the
> indefensible.

Oh dear. I don't want to be defending the indefensible because that
would plainly be a futile thing to do.

If cats were an exotic species, like pythons, or another
> destructive native species like polecats, then people would have to keep
> them caged or face prosecution.

Yes - or to put it another way, if cats were leopards or tigers, people
would have to keep them caged. Or to put it yet another way, if my aunt
had bollocks she'd be my uncle. No discourtesy intended.

Only farmers should be allowed uncaged
> cats and I might vote for a politician who supported such a law change.
>

As a cat owner, I suppose I could cope with a requirement to keep my
cats indoors all the time. I could get used to it. Some people do have
"house cats" and keep them indoors for all their lives. I'd guess that
their lives might be shorter - they would get less exercise, and there
would be a risk of them getting fat and unhealthy. But who cares, they
are only cats.

If the law is to be changed, I would however be very much in favour of
an additional law that required dogs to be kept in their owner's
property at all times. Dogs shit on our pavements and in our parks and
open spaces. Hardly a month passes without a story in the papers about a
dog tearing open a child's face. No dog can be assumed to be safe with
small children - any dog can turn nasty on a whim and inflict serious
injuries.

But the main complaint from all these animals has to be poop. We all
hate faeces, we have a primeval loathing for it. It belongs in the
toilet or not at all. There is an urgent need to develop foodstuffs that
after passing through the body will produce only a tiny turd that smells
of Chanel perfume or newly mown grass, contains no germs and could be
eaten with no ill effects.

[Percy Picacity]

On 2012-06-08 14:15:02 +0000, The Todal said:


>
> But the main complaint from all these animals has to be poop. We all
> hate faeces, we have a primeval loathing for it. It belongs in the
> toilet or not at all. There is an urgent need to develop foodstuffs
> that after passing through the body will produce only a tiny turd that
> smells of Chanel perfume or newly mown grass, contains no germs and
> could be eaten with no ill effects.

The evolutionary advantage of this subjective dislike of course is a
reduction of the burden of bacterial and viral disease, and of
parasitic infections by a vast array of unpleasant creatures from
protozoa to insects via the helminths. It is not just a whim, and
sanitising faeces so we tolerated contact with it more would be the
very worst solution.

--

Percy Picacity

[The Todal]

I agree, of course.

The pragmatic approach must be to bring up our kids to be very wary of
touching or eating faeces, and for us to accept that we cannot
realistically eradicate it from our gardens or our streets.

I think people have to stop seeing cats as trespassers - as agents of
their owners, deliberately breaking the rules and ignoring boundaries -
but as creatures like birds or hedgehogs which must be expected from
time to time in gardens. A reluctance to accept this is something I see
as an excessive sense of territoriality - and maybe it is involuntary
and cannot be changed by willpower alone. But it seems a shame that
people feel this sense of rage and allow it to spoil their enjoyment of
their garden and, more to the point, develop a deep seated resentment
towards a neighbour who owns a cat and allows it to roam in the same way
that millions of householders do. As most of us know, neighbour
disputes can get very nasty and obsessive, and there are countless ways
that the behaviour of a neighbour can seem inconsiderate if viewed in an
excessively pedantic way.

[ARWadsworth]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/gloucestershire/8191355.stm

So do you need to keep a python caged or can it roam in your garden? And
lets assume the garden has been fenced off to stop the snake escaping from
the garden.

As a cat owner this is a serious question. If my cat was killed by the
neighbours Staffie in their garden I would not complain.

--
Adam

[steve robinson]

We have several cats visit our cat goes visiting , even our GSD visits
next door the only animals apart from our dog that leaves its poop on
the lawn is a fox that pays a visit.

[Percy Picacity]

Yes, I see cats as exactly comparable creatures to rabbits or cane
toads in Australia: possibly harmless in small numbers, but in
practice a real ecological and economic danger if culling and control
is not constantly and vigilantly promoted. For instance, I once lived
in a little corner of suburbia including allotments where no bird was
heard singing and few seen, simply because of the huge number of cats a
mad cat lady allowed to roam locally.


--

Percy Picacity

[Percy Picacity]

In my opinion, if the garden is an *effective* cage that is fine! I
don't mind the odd python or cat on the other side of a secure fence.
Cats are quite hard to fence in though. The average cat can climb an
indefinite vertical height if there are any claw holds, and manage at
least a couple of feet of horizontal overhang by jumping upside down.

--

Percy Picacity

[Mike Bristow]

In article <a3efih...@mid.individual.net>,

The Todal <deadm...@beeb.net> wrote:
> Some people do have
> "house cats" and keep them indoors for all their lives. I'd guess that
> their lives might be shorter - they would get less exercise, and there
> would be a risk of them getting fat and unhealthy. But who cares, they
> are only cats.

Actually, they tend to live longer, mostly because they don't get
killed by cars.

--
Mike Bristow mi...@urgle.com

[Jon Ribbens]

Indeed. It appears that in America, you are considered cruel if you
let your cat outside, whereas in Britain, the reverse is true.
Other countries vary. I did some research before getting a cat in a
flat where it would have to be kept indoors, and the prevailing
opinion seemed to be that it is only cruel to keep a cat indoors if
it has been previously used to roaming outside.

[Stuart A. Bronstein]

August West <aug...@kororaa.com> wrote:

> Jon Ribbens wrote:
>>
>> Indeed. It appears that in America, you are considered cruel if
>> you let your cat outside, whereas in Britain, the reverse is
>> true.
>

> On the other hand, in the US, most indoor cats are declawed, a
> paractice that is viewed as cruel in the UK, and, as a result,
> illegal (Animal Welfare Act 2006 s.4 & 5).

I think "most" is a huge exaggeration. In fact declawing cats is, in
my experience, relatively rare in the US, and is considered cruel by
anyone who actually understands what the procedure entails.

___
Stu
http://DownToEarthLawyer.com

[Stuart A. Bronstein]

Mike Bristow <mi...@urgle.com> wrote:
> The Todal <deadm...@beeb.net> wrote:

>> Some people do have
>> "house cats" and keep them indoors for all their lives. I'd
>> guess that their lives might be shorter - they would get less
>> exercise, and there would be a risk of them getting fat and
>> unhealthy. But who cares, they are only cats.
>
> Actually, they tend to live longer, mostly because they don't
> get killed by cars.

I understand that outdoor cats are more likely to get into fights
with other cats, and injuries from fights can lead to feline
leukemia. The average outdoor cat in the US lives about two years,
while the average indoor cat lives 15 years.

___
Stu
http://DownToEarthLawyer.com

[Adam Funk]

On 2012-06-08, The Todal wrote:

> The pragmatic approach must be to bring up our kids to be very wary of
> touching or eating faeces, and for us to accept that we cannot
> realistically eradicate it from our gardens or our streets.
>
> I think people have to stop seeing cats as trespassers - as agents of
> their owners, deliberately breaking the rules and ignoring boundaries -
> but as creatures like birds or hedgehogs which must be expected from
> time to time in gardens. A reluctance to accept this is something I see
> as an excessive sense of territoriality - and maybe it is involuntary
> and cannot be changed by willpower alone. But it seems a shame that
> people feel this sense of rage and allow it to spoil their enjoyment of
> their garden and, more to the point, develop a deep seated resentment
> towards a neighbour who owns a cat and allows it to roam in the same way
> that millions of householders do. As most of us know, neighbour
> disputes can get very nasty and obsessive, and there are countless ways
> that the behaviour of a neighbour can seem inconsiderate if viewed in an
> excessively pedantic way.

I don't have a cat, & I occasionally have problems with cat poo in my
garden, but AIUI cats in urban areas (unlike dogs, for example) give
catless neighbours the public health benefit of reducing the rat &
mouse populations.

[Ste]

On Jun 8, 5:55 pm, The Todal <deadmail...@beeb.net> wrote:
> On 8/6/12 16:45, Percy Picacity wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 2012-06-08 14:15:02 +0000, The Todal said:
>
> >> But the main complaint from all these animals has to be poop. We all
> >> hate faeces, we have a primeval loathing for it. It belongs in the
> >> toilet or not at all. There is an urgent need to develop foodstuffs
> >> that after passing through the body will produce only a tiny turd that
> >> smells of Chanel perfume or newly mown grass, contains no germs and
> >> could be eaten with no ill effects.
>
> > The evolutionary advantage of this subjective dislike of course is a
> > reduction of the burden of bacterial and viral disease, and of parasitic
> > infections by a vast array of unpleasant creatures from protozoa to
> > insects via the helminths.   It is not just a whim, and sanitising
> > faeces so we tolerated contact with it more would be the very worst
> > solution.
>
> I agree, of course.
>
> The pragmatic approach must be to bring up our kids to be very wary of
> touching or eating faeces, and for us to accept that we cannot
> realistically eradicate it from our gardens or our streets.

Pragmatically, larger deposits of faeces *can* be virtually eliminated
from our gardens, and a child young enough to consider eating faeces
would probably not be permitted to roam the streets unsupervised.

> I think people have to stop seeing cats as trespassers - as agents of
> their owners, deliberately breaking the rules and ignoring boundaries -

But of course, that is the view of cats that *owners* hold, when it
suits them. Insofar as anyone would attempt to deprive the owner of
the enjoyment of keeping a cat, then the owner wants the cat to be
treated as their private property. But when it comes to responsibility
for the cat's behaviour (including the ordinary and natural
consequences of keeping a cat), the owner refuses all responsibility.

> but as creatures like birds or hedgehogs which must be expected from
> time to time in gardens.

Of course, a particularly troublesome bird or hedgehog might be
terminated, or their nearby nests and breeding grounds destroyed
thereby encouraging them to move on.

> A reluctance to accept this is something I see
> as an excessive sense of territoriality - and maybe it is involuntary
> and cannot be changed by willpower alone.

But of course, the owners of cats *also* want to express a sense of
territoriality: over the cat that others might wish to neutralise.

> But it seems a shame that
> people feel this sense of rage and allow it to spoil their enjoyment of
> their garden

You seem to be saying that it is necessary for large helpings of
faeces to be present, in order to enjoy one's garden.

> and, more to the point, develop a deep seated resentment
> towards a neighbour who owns a cat and allows it to roam in the same way
> that millions of householders do.  As most of us know, neighbour
> disputes can get very nasty and obsessive, and there are countless ways
> that the behaviour of a neighbour can seem inconsiderate if viewed in an
> excessively pedantic way.

In the end, there is no obvious logical resolution to the problem of
garden-keepers versus cat-owners - the two are simply incompatible, to
the extent this discussion is concerned with. For each individual, it
is likely to be resolved by whether you like gardens or cats better,
and in law and practice I'd say the right to keep a cat is placed
above the right to have a faeces-free garden.

[Mark Goodge]

On Sat, 09 Jun 2012 21:10:09 +0100, Stuart A. Bronstein put finger to
keyboard and typed:

The majority of my outdoor cats in the UK have lived far longer than 2
years. It must be something in the American air which is killing them.

Mark
--
Blog: http://mark.goodge.co.uk
Stuff: http://www.good-stuff.co.uk

[The Todal]

On 9/6/12 20:20, Ste wrote:
> On Jun 8, 5:55 pm, The Todal <deadmail...@beeb.net> wrote:
>> On 8/6/12 16:45, Percy Picacity wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 2012-06-08 14:15:02 +0000, The Todal said:
>>
>>>> But the main complaint from all these animals has to be poop. We all
>>>> hate faeces, we have a primeval loathing for it. It belongs in the
>>>> toilet or not at all. There is an urgent need to develop foodstuffs
>>>> that after passing through the body will produce only a tiny turd that
>>>> smells of Chanel perfume or newly mown grass, contains no germs and
>>>> could be eaten with no ill effects.
>>
>>> The evolutionary advantage of this subjective dislike of course is a
>>> reduction of the burden of bacterial and viral disease, and of parasitic
>>> infections by a vast array of unpleasant creatures from protozoa to
>>> insects via the helminths. It is not just a whim, and sanitising
>>> faeces so we tolerated contact with it more would be the very worst
>>> solution.
>>
>> I agree, of course.
>>
>> The pragmatic approach must be to bring up our kids to be very wary of
>> touching or eating faeces, and for us to accept that we cannot
>> realistically eradicate it from our gardens or our streets.
>
> Pragmatically, larger deposits of faeces *can* be virtually eliminated
> from our gardens, and a child young enough to consider eating faeces
> would probably not be permitted to roam the streets unsupervised.

Anyone who knows what toddlers are like will know that they are
certainly capable of sitting down suddenly in a street or in a park and
grabbing at any objects or tufts of grass within reach. They need close
supervision. Nobody should be daft enough to put a toddler on the lawn
and leave them unsupervised even for a few seconds.

>
>
>
>> I think people have to stop seeing cats as trespassers - as agents of
>> their owners, deliberately breaking the rules and ignoring boundaries -
>
> But of course, that is the view of cats that *owners* hold, when it
> suits them. Insofar as anyone would attempt to deprive the owner of
> the enjoyment of keeping a cat, then the owner wants the cat to be
> treated as their private property. But when it comes to responsibility
> for the cat's behaviour (including the ordinary and natural
> consequences of keeping a cat), the owner refuses all responsibility.

Refuses? The owner *has* no legal responsibility. Only a very gullible
or generous cat-owner would hand out compensation for every disturbance
to a flowerbed, every whinge that a dead mouse had been left close to a
back door.

>
>> but as creatures like birds or hedgehogs which must be expected from
>> time to time in gardens.
>
> Of course, a particularly troublesome bird or hedgehog might be
> terminated, or their nearby nests and breeding grounds destroyed
> thereby encouraging them to move on.

I find that a slightly bizarre suggestion. If birds were crapping on
your car while it stood in your driveway would you buy an airgun and
take pot-shots at the birds in the tree?

>
>
>
>> A reluctance to accept this is something I see
>> as an excessive sense of territoriality - and maybe it is involuntary
>> and cannot be changed by willpower alone.
>
> But of course, the owners of cats *also* want to express a sense of
> territoriality: over the cat that others might wish to neutralise.
>

No, that isn't territoriality.

>
>
>> But it seems a shame that
>> people feel this sense of rage and allow it to spoil their enjoyment of
>> their garden
>
> You seem to be saying that it is necessary for large helpings of
> faeces to be present, in order to enjoy one's garden.

I haven't ever said any such thing. This isn't an argument between cat
haters and cat lovers, you know. This is a polite debate between those
who hate cats and would like to see new laws to ban them from strangers'
gardens, and those who (whether or not they like cats) see such laws as
unnecessary and inappropropriate.

>
>
>
>> and, more to the point, develop a deep seated resentment
>> towards a neighbour who owns a cat and allows it to roam in the same way
>> that millions of householders do. As most of us know, neighbour
>> disputes can get very nasty and obsessive, and there are countless ways
>> that the behaviour of a neighbour can seem inconsiderate if viewed in an
>> excessively pedantic way.
>
> In the end, there is no obvious logical resolution to the problem of
> garden-keepers versus cat-owners - the two are simply incompatible, to
> the extent this discussion is concerned with. For each individual, it
> is likely to be resolved by whether you like gardens or cats better,
> and in law and practice I'd say the right to keep a cat is placed
> above the right to have a faeces-free garden.
>

I'd say that for about 90% of householders there *is* no problem of
garden keepers versus cat owners. Most householders don't give a shit
about cats and don't patrol their gardens examining turds to assess what
sort of animal has produced them and whether it was a cat.

[Martin Bonner]

On Friday, 8 June 2012 15:15:02 UTC+1, The Todal wrote:
> As a cat owner, I suppose I could cope with a requirement to keep my
> cats indoors all the time. I could get used to it. Some people do have
> "house cats" and keep them indoors for all their lives. I'd guess that
> their lives might be shorter - they would get less exercise, and there
> would be a risk of them getting fat and unhealthy.

Quick interjection: When I was researching cat lifespans recently, most web-sites said that cats kept indoors tended to live for /longer/ than those allowed outside (fewer fights, fewer road accidents, and fewer infections).

(Personally I don't like the idea of keeping cats indoors all the time.)

[steve robinson]

Martin Bonner wrote:

> On Friday, 8 June 2012 15:15:02 UTC+1, The Todal wrote:
> > As a cat owner, I suppose I could cope with a requirement to keep
> > my cats indoors all the time. I could get used to it. Some people
> > do have "house cats" and keep them indoors for all their lives. I'd
> > guess that their lives might be shorter - they would get less
> > exercise, and there would be a risk of them getting fat and
> > unhealthy.
>
> Quick interjection: When I was researching cat lifespans recently,

> most web-sites said that cats kept indoors tended to live for longer

> than those allowed outside (fewer fights, fewer road accidents, and
> fewer infections).
>
> (Personally I don't like the idea of keeping cats indoors all the
> time.)

Its akin to keeping dogs in cages which seems to be gaining popularity

[Ste]

I don't think it's unreasonable to let a toddler freely roam around
the average cared-for garden area. I can see why such parents would
think that cats (and in turn, their owners) are subverting the attempt
to create a safe area for their children. Although it must be said, I
agree that reducing risk to children cannot come at the expense of
exterminating all wildlife.

> >> I think people have to stop seeing cats as trespassers - as agents of
> >> their owners, deliberately breaking the rules and ignoring boundaries -
>
> > But of course, that is the view of cats that *owners* hold, when it
> > suits them. Insofar as anyone would attempt to deprive the owner of
> > the enjoyment of keeping a cat, then the owner wants the cat to be
> > treated as their private property. But when it comes to responsibility
> > for the cat's behaviour (including the ordinary and natural
> > consequences of keeping a cat), the owner refuses all responsibility.
>
> Refuses?  The owner *has* no legal responsibility. Only a very gullible
> or generous cat-owner would hand out compensation for every disturbance
> to a flowerbed, every whinge that a dead mouse had been left close to a
> back door.

That is precisely the point I am making, that cat owners enjoy the
rights and protections of ownership without any of the
responsibilities that normally accompany ownership. Unlike dog owners,
for example.

> >> but as creatures like birds or hedgehogs which must be expected from
> >> time to time in gardens.
>
> > Of course, a particularly troublesome bird or hedgehog might be
> > terminated, or their nearby nests and breeding grounds destroyed
> > thereby encouraging them to move on.
>
> I find that a slightly bizarre suggestion. If birds were crapping on
> your car while it stood in your driveway would you buy an airgun and
> take pot-shots at the birds in the tree?

Yes! I have taken pot-shots at a particularly troublesome lot in the
past, because the sheer volume of shit splashed all over my windows,
door, and patio area, was simply too much to tolerate without a fuss.
I've also had the entrance to a nest in the roof stopped up, in order
to move the birds on.

> >>   A reluctance to accept this is something I see
> >> as an excessive sense of territoriality - and maybe it is involuntary
> >> and cannot be changed by willpower alone.
>
> > But of course, the owners of cats *also* want to express a sense of
> > territoriality: over the cat that others might wish to neutralise.
>
> No, that isn't territoriality.

What is it then?

> >> But it seems a shame that
> >> people feel this sense of rage and allow it to spoil their enjoyment of
> >> their garden
>
> > You seem to be saying that it is necessary for large helpings of
> > faeces to be present, in order to enjoy one's garden.
>
> I haven't ever said any such thing.  This isn't an argument between cat
> haters and cat lovers, you know.

It certainly isn't, because I don't hate cats. I'm simply pointing out
that fundamentally cat owners are indeed creating the problem
complained of. Cats, by and large, are not wildlife who are an
inextricable part of the natural environment. Owners take steps,
including feeding and housing, to attract and keep cats in the local
environment, which others might find quite unwelcome.

> This is a polite debate between those
> who hate cats and would like to see new laws to ban them from strangers'
> gardens, and those who (whether or not they like cats) see such laws as
> unnecessary and inappropropriate.

I certainly agree there can be no law that "bans cats from strangers'
gardens", other than a law that allows enforcement by termination.
There could, however, very well be a law against keeping cats, or
against permitting them out of the house if they are kept.

> >> and, more to the point, develop a deep seated resentment
> >> towards a neighbour who owns a cat and allows it to roam in the same way
> >> that millions of householders do.  As most of us know, neighbour
> >> disputes can get very nasty and obsessive, and there are countless ways
> >> that the behaviour of a neighbour can seem inconsiderate if viewed in an
> >> excessively pedantic way.
>
> > In the end, there is no obvious logical resolution to the problem of
> > garden-keepers versus cat-owners - the two are simply incompatible, to
> > the extent this discussion is concerned with. For each individual, it
> > is likely to be resolved by whether you like gardens or cats better,
> > and in law and practice I'd say the right to keep a cat is placed
> > above the right to have a faeces-free garden.
>
> I'd say that for about 90% of householders there *is* no problem of
> garden keepers versus cat owners. Most householders don't give a shit
> about cats and don't patrol their gardens examining turds to assess what
> sort of animal has produced them and whether it was a cat.

Lol.

[Roger Dewhurst]

On Jun 2, 7:20 pm, Phil Mcbride <philmcbrid...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Now that the weather is warming up, the possibility that my children
> can play freely in the lawn is there. Unfortunately, at least three
> neighbourhood cats have seen fit to come and go into our garden, and
> poo in it. I have found their poo while mowing the lawn or tending to
> the vegetable patches.
>
> In particular some of the health implications of children playing
> around cat faeces is toxocariasis and toxoplasma.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxocariasis
>
> I'm sure the problem I have is not a unique one. What can be done
> about this? Options that have crossed my mind are: antifreeze + tuna
> chunks in a hidden corner of the garden, airguns, water sprinklers,
> dogs (which will have to be toilet trained).
>
> The problem is that me and my wife are not in throughout the day and
> the only enduring solutions I can see is antifreeze or dogs.
>
> Thanks for any advice.

Set up sprinklers on the lawn. Control them with an infra-red sensor
which switches a washing machine solenoid valve. Cheap and easy.

R

[Roger Dewhurst]

On Jun 2, 7:20 pm, Phil Mcbride <philmcbrid...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Now that the weather is warming up, the possibility that my children
> can play freely in the lawn is there. Unfortunately, at least three
> neighbourhood cats have seen fit to come and go into our garden, and
> poo in it. I have found their poo while mowing the lawn or tending to
> the vegetable patches.
>
> In particular some of the health implications of children playing
> around cat faeces is toxocariasis and toxoplasma.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxocariasis
>
> I'm sure the problem I have is not a unique one. What can be done
> about this? Options that have crossed my mind are: antifreeze + tuna
> chunks in a hidden corner of the garden, airguns, water sprinklers,
> dogs (which will have to be toilet trained).
>
> The problem is that me and my wife are not in throughout the day and
> the only enduring solutions I can see is antifreeze or dogs.
>
> Thanks for any advice.

There is a product, artificial skunk scent, on the market in New
Zealand. It deters both cats and dogs. There are two forms, pellets
and a grease. The latter on fence tops will stop them.

R

[Roland Perry]

In message
<06cb6f3a-a45c-4dc8...@f8g2000pbf.googlegroups.com>, at
02:45:02 on Wed, 13 Jun 2012, Roger Dewhurst <dewhurs...@gmail.com>
remarked:

>Set up sprinklers on the lawn. Control them with an infra-red sensor
>which switches a washing machine solenoid valve. Cheap and easy.

And tricky when there's a hosepipe ban. It also drenches the children.
--
Roland Perry

[ARWadsworth]

Well I do not have a hosepipe ban. Can I install this to stop the paperlad
crossing my lawn and climbing over the fence to the nextdoor neighbours
house:-)?

--
Adam

[steve robinson]

Yes but your papers might be a tad soggy