Re: Can an Attorney (LPOA) charge for travelling to visit a parent in a care home?
Big Les Wade
>My sister is proposing to charge, 40p/mile, for travelling to see her
>Mum who is in a care home for dementia.
>
>The LPOA agreement says 'out of pocket expenses only'.
Well she *is* out of pocket. Cars don't run on air and the costs add up
over time.
There could possibly be an argument about whether your sister should
only be reimbursed for the *marginal* cost of travel (i.e. excluding her
fixed costs like motor insurance), but she is surely entitled to
something, if she wants it.
There is also a moral question about whether daughters should be
claiming expenses for visiting their mum, but that's separate from the
legal question about POAs' duties and rights. Regarding this question,
you could ask yourself this: if Mum was mentally capable, would she say,
"It's so kind of you to visit me so often dear, here's some money to
cover your petrol." Both my mums did this.
>This seems fishy to me. I am the other LPOA but I have never charged
>for visits.
Naturally you can make your own choice, but so can your sister (within
her legal rights).
>Sister says that she does things like take Mum out for a walk. Does
>that make a difference?
Not to her out of pocket expenses.
>Over past months, she got some friends of hers to visit Mum, and then
>got them to invoice it. I paid the invoices, but I think this is
>different, due to the LPOA restrictions.
In what way?
--
Les
steve robinson
> My sister is proposing to charge, 40p/mile, for travelling to see
> her Mum who is in a care home for dementia.
>
> The LPOA agreement says 'out of pocket expenses only'.
>
> This seems fishy to me. I am the other LPOA but I have never charged
> for visits.
>
> Sister says that she does things like take Mum out for a walk. Does
> that make a difference?
>
> Over past months, she got some friends of hers to visit Mum, and
> then got them to invoice it. I paid the invoices, but I think this
> is different, due to the LPOA restrictions.
>
> What do people here think?
Your sisters taking the Micky , its essential expenses that can be
recovered , visitings not classed as an essential expense .
Periander
news:fuhtr61ldaen0kvo2...@4ax.com:
.....
>
> What do people here think?
My first thought was more or less the same as Les's but on reflection I'd
be tempted to play hard boil and ask to see what LPoA business required her
to make these visits and to see excatly what LPAoA business was conducted
on these visits.
After all the expenses are omly payable in respect of out of pocket
expenses relating to the the LPoA and not in respect of any social
visiting.
--
Regards,
Periander
Chris R
Mum who is in a care home for dementia.
The LPOA agreement says 'out of pocket expenses only'.
This seems fishy to me. I am the other LPOA but I have never charged
for visits.
Sister says that she does things like take Mum out for a walk. Does
that make a difference?
Over past months, she got some friends of hers to visit Mum, and then
got them to invoice it. I paid the invoices, but I think this is
different, due to the LPOA restrictions.
What do people here think?
-------------------------------------------
You don't say whether decisions have to be made jointly by the two of you or
if you can each act separately. The fact that the LPOA permits the
attorney(s) to receive expenses does not mean the attorney(s) have to agree
to pay them. If a joint decision is needed, just say no.
Secondly, what expenses does the LPOA allow to be charged? I would expect it
to be the expenses incurred in acting as attorney. Normal family visits are
unlikely to be covered. So unless your sister was visiting specifically to
deal with your mother's financial affairs, I would say that was not an
expense incurred in acting as attorney.
But depending on family circumstances and tax status, finding ways of
passing money tax-free to the next generation may be no bad thing.
Chris R
andy1973
> Sister says that she does things like take Mum out for a walk. Does
> that make a difference?
>
Is sister seriously not charging for the service of taking mother for a
walk?
steve robinson
Problems arrise when she finally pops off and the estate owes
creditors or a beneficary isnt getting what they feel they are
entitled too , a quick look at the accounts would flag all this
milage and drawer suspicion . Once its been confirmed you have been
overclaiming on the expenses very decision , every expense will be
questioned and possibly the plod involved .
steve robinson
>
> "steve robinson" <st...@colevalleyinteriors.co.uk> wrote
> The only beneficiaries of the Will are the two attorneys, which is
> another reason I want to be very clean.
>
> There should not be any creditors - apart from HMRC on IHT.
>
> Hopefully if I am clean but my sister has done something dodgy, it
> will be her who will have to cough up, not me.
Doesnt work like that , your aware of activities that you feel are
possibly ilegal , certainly not within the remit of the power of
attourney you both hold .You need to raise the issue with your sister
informing the authorities if nessassary , its not your money or your
sibblings yet .
You both could be accused of fraud and false accounting as you are
aware of her activities
steve robinson
>
> "Chris R" <inv...@invalid.munge.co.uk> wrote
>
> > My sister is proposing to charge, 40p/mile, for travelling to see
> > her Mum who is in a care home for dementia.
> >
> > The LPOA agreement says 'out of pocket expenses only'.
> >
> > This seems fishy to me. I am the other LPOA but I have never
> > charged for visits.
> >
> > Sister says that she does things like take Mum out for a walk.
> > Does that make a difference?
> >
> > Over past months, she got some friends of hers to visit Mum, and
> > then got them to invoice it. I paid the invoices, but I think
> > this is different, due to the LPOA restrictions.
> >
> > What do people here think?
> >
> > -------------------------------------------
> > You don't say whether decisions have to be made jointly by the
> > two of you or if you can each act separately. The fact that the
> > LPOA permits the attorney(s) to receive expenses does not mean
> > the attorney(s) have to agree to pay them. If a joint decision is
> > needed, just say no.
>
> We are separate attorneys so I don't have a veto as such.
>
> > Secondly, what expenses does the LPOA allow to be charged? I
> > would expect it to be the expenses incurred in acting as
> > attorney. Normal family visits are unlikely to be covered. So
> > unless your sister was visiting specifically to deal with your
> > mother's financial affairs, I would say that was not an expense
> > incurred in acting as attorney.
>
> I agree with that and have told her so.
>
> It has been a gradual thing. Originally she was charging for visits
> where she did actual things for which she had to be there. Now she
> is billing all visits. (I am the one in charge of finances).
>
> So I have told her I will pay her requests (which are basically
> 40p/mile, which my accountant said is reasonable for travelling) but
> there could be a comeback, which is why I am not claiming for
> straight visits myself.
>
> I said to her we should get legal advice but she is absolutely dead
> against agreeing to that, on the grounds that it costs money!
>
> The problem I have is that she gets very aggressive, and I somehow
> have to deal with her. There is a long history to this, with her
> trying to claim for her time, etc. I managed to deflect that one.
> All she is pursuing at the moment is the mileage claim for visits.
>
> > But depending on family circumstances and tax status, finding
> > ways of passing money tax-free to the next generation may be no
> > bad thing.
>
> Well, sure, but I don't want to do something illegal.
>
> I think charging for straight visits is pretty obviously a grey
> area.
You need to be strong and tell her carry on like this and i inform
the authorities , you have a legal duty to manage your mothers
affairs correctly even if it means upsetting your sister
Geoff Berrow
<a...@the-post-office-not.com> wrote:
>My sister is proposing to charge, 40p/mile, for travelling to see her
>Mum who is in a care home for dementia.
>
>The LPOA agreement says 'out of pocket expenses only'.
>
>This seems fishy to me. I am the other LPOA but I have never charged
>for visits.
>
>Sister says that she does things like take Mum out for a walk. Does
>that make a difference?
>
>Over past months, she got some friends of hers to visit Mum, and then
>got them to invoice it. I paid the invoices, but I think this is
>different, due to the LPOA restrictions.
>
>What do people here think?
I'm dismayed that people seem more concerned with legal aspects that
the well being of your mother.
I think it is more important that your mother gets regular visits
rather than quibbling over a few quid for petrol. If your sister
charges, then you should charge.
If your mother was of sound mind wouldn't she be happy to help with
the costs?
--
Geoff Berrow (Put thecat out to email)
It's only Usenet, no one dies.
My opinions, not the committee's, mine.
Simple RFDs www.4theweb.co.uk/rfdmaker
steve robinson
> On Mon, 02 May 2011 16:10:02 +0100, Postman Pat
> <a...@the-post-office-not.com> wrote:
>
> > My sister is proposing to charge, 40p/mile, for travelling to see
> > her Mum who is in a care home for dementia.
> >
> > The LPOA agreement says 'out of pocket expenses only'.
> >
> > This seems fishy to me. I am the other LPOA but I have never
> > charged for visits.
> >
> > Sister says that she does things like take Mum out for a walk.
> > Does that make a difference?
> >
> > Over past months, she got some friends of hers to visit Mum, and
> > then got them to invoice it. I paid the invoices, but I think
> > this is different, due to the LPOA restrictions.
> >
> > What do people here think?
>
>
> I'm dismayed that people seem more concerned with legal aspects that
> the well being of your mother.
>
> I think it is more important that your mother gets regular visits
> rather than quibbling over a few quid for petrol. If your sister
> charges, then you should charge.
>
> If your mother was of sound mind wouldn't she be happy to help with
> the costs?
The whole point of an LPOA is to cover the legal aspects , to assist
and protect the mother who can no longer manage her affairs and to
protect those that are manageing her affairs.
Its not a licience for relatives to enrich themselves .
When my mother was in a home niether me or my brother would have
dreamed to collect expenses for travelling or chargeing her to do her
washing (she used to prefer my wife to do her washing) which would
have been reasonable.
The only expense costs ever taken were for her clothing and 'pocket
money' kept at the home , all was documented and reciepts kept
Geoff Berrow
<st...@colevalleyinteriors.co.uk> wrote:
>> If your mother was of sound mind wouldn't she be happy to help with
>> the costs?
>
>The whole point of an LPOA is to cover the legal aspects , to assist
>and protect the mother who can no longer manage her affairs and to
>protect those that are manageing her affairs.
>
>Its not a licience for relatives to enrich themselves .
By charging 40p a mile? I'd hardly call that 'enriching'.
>
>When my mother was in a home niether me or my brother would have
>dreamed to collect expenses for travelling or chargeing her to do her
>washing (she used to prefer my wife to do her washing) which would
>have been reasonable.
That's your choice.
If it would have been reasonable then there is nothing stopping you
from doing it. As long as you and your brother agree I see no problem.
I'd also consider it reasonable for you wife to be compensated in some
way for doing the laundry.
It's simpler for me. I have LPOA but I'm an only child.
Ste
> "steve robinson" <st...@colevalleyinteriors.co.uk> wrote
>
>
>
>
>
> another reason I want to be very clean.
>
> There should not be any creditors - apart from HMRC on IHT.
>
> Hopefully if I am clean but my sister has done something dodgy, it
It seems to me that essentially what is going on is that you're trying
to extract the wealth that you expect to inherit from your mother, but
before her actual death. Presumably your mother's mental condition is
now such that she can no longer consent to handing over any money
herself. As long as you're genuinely acting in accordance with what
your mother's wishes would have been and are not disadvantaging her in
any sense, then I can see no moral problem in what you're doing, but I
would not be surprised if there was a legal problem. The real question
is whether you are ever likely to be challenged. If you're only taking
a small slice of an extensive estate (i.e. a matter of thousands up to
the date of your mother's death, in the context of an estate of
hundreds of thousands), and you are both the only beneficiaries of the
will and both expect to receive significant inheritances, then it is
unlikely that what you're doing will ever be challenged. But if you're
draining the estate extensively, then you may well be challenged, by
the taxman himself on the issue of IHT, if no one else.
steve robinson
> On Tue, 03 May 2011 10:45:02 +0100, "steve robinson"
> <st...@colevalleyinteriors.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >> If your mother was of sound mind wouldn't she be happy to help
> with >> the costs?
> >
> > The whole point of an LPOA is to cover the legal aspects , to
> > assist and protect the mother who can no longer manage her
> > affairs and to protect those that are manageing her affairs.
> >
> > Its not a licience for relatives to enrich themselves .
>
> By charging 40p a mile? I'd hardly call that 'enriching'.
Well what else would you call it , if you assume they have chosen a
local nurseing home then your probably looking at a 5 mile round trip
Thats £14.00 a week assumming they visit once a day .
Are they declareing this for tax purposes , does the car insurance
cover taking payments
>
> >
> > When my mother was in a home niether me or my brother would have
> > dreamed to collect expenses for travelling or chargeing her to do
> > her washing (she used to prefer my wife to do her washing) which
> > would have been reasonable.
>
> That's your choice.
>
> If it would have been reasonable then there is nothing stopping you
> from doing it. As long as you and your brother agree I see no
> problem. I'd also consider it reasonable for you wife to be
> compensated in some way for doing the laundry.
>
> It's simpler for me. I have LPOA but I'm an only child.
It just shows what some relatives will do to grab what is a
relatively small sum of money from the elderly who can not make the
decsions themselves
the Omrud
> Geoff Berrow wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 03 May 2011 10:45:02 +0100, "steve robinson"
>> <st...@colevalleyinteriors.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>> If your mother was of sound mind wouldn't she be happy to help
>> with>> the costs?
>>>
>>> The whole point of an LPOA is to cover the legal aspects , to
>>> assist and protect the mother who can no longer manage her
>>> affairs and to protect those that are manageing her affairs.
>>>
>>> Its not a licience for relatives to enrich themselves .
>>
>> By charging 40p a mile? I'd hardly call that 'enriching'.
>
> Well what else would you call it , if you assume they have chosen a
> local nurseing home then your probably looking at a 5 mile round trip
> Thats £14.00 a week assumming they visit once a day .
>
> Are they declareing this for tax purposes , does the car insurance
> cover taking payments
40p per mile is the amount allowed by HMRC to be claimed from one's
employer for business mileage without incurring any tax liability. I
understand this is not the same situation, but it is a defensible rate.
--
David
steve robinson
Visiting a relative isnt business or job incurred .
If she was having to drive several hundred miles a month extra to
collect and deliver items for the relative possibly yes its arguable
But visiting them no otherwise we would be all entitled to charge
everytime we visited any elderly or sick relative
Geoff Berrow
<st...@colevalleyinteriors.co.uk> wrote:
>> > Its not a licience for relatives to enrich themselves .
>>
>> By charging 40p a mile? I'd hardly call that 'enriching'.
>
>Well what else would you call it , if you assume they have chosen a
>local nurseing home then your probably looking at a 5 mile round trip
>Thats £14.00 a week assumming they visit once a day .
I hardly see what that calculation has to do with anything. 40p a mile
is an accepted rate for traveling expenses whether you agree with it
or not. It covers fuel, depreciation, wear and tear, servicing etc.
It's not enriching, its a legitimate expense.
>
>
>Are they declareing this for tax purposes , does the car insurance
>cover taking payments
>
>>
>> >
>> > When my mother was in a home niether me or my brother would have
>> > dreamed to collect expenses for travelling or chargeing her to do
>> > her washing (she used to prefer my wife to do her washing) which
>> > would have been reasonable.
>>
>> That's your choice.
>>
>> If it would have been reasonable then there is nothing stopping you
>> from doing it. As long as you and your brother agree I see no
>> problem. I'd also consider it reasonable for you wife to be
>> compensated in some way for doing the laundry.
>>
>> It's simpler for me. I have LPOA but I'm an only child.
>
>
>It just shows what some relatives will do to grab what is a
>relatively small sum of money from the elderly who can not make the
>decsions themselves
That's nothing but a statement from your own moral standpoint. For
all you know the mother, in her right mind may well have been willing
to fund the car as well as the running costs. I know my mother would.
Big Les Wade
>My first thought was more or less the same as Les's but on reflection I'd
>be tempted to play hard boil and ask to see what LPoA business required her
>to make these visits and to see excatly what LPAoA business was conducted
>on these visits.
>
>After all the expenses are omly payable in respect of out of pocket
>expenses relating to the the LPoA and not in respect of any social
>visiting.
With very old people they are often intermingled. When I used to go to
see my mum-in-law once or twice a week, every visit included some
combination of going through her post, paying bills, sorting out
correspondence, going to the bank to get her some money, buying her food
and necessaries, engaging tradesmen to maintain the house etc. As well
as taking her to doctors appointments and so on. Some of these are more
LPOA-ish than others, but all of them are perfectly reasonable causes of
expense claims.
--
Les
Ian Smith
> On 03/05/2011 14:55, steve robinson wrote:
> > Geoff Berrow wrote:
> >
> >> By charging 40p a mile? I'd hardly call that 'enriching'.
> >
> > cover taking payments
>
> 40p per mile is the amount allowed by HMRC to be claimed from one's
> employer for business mileage without incurring any tax liability. I
> understand this is not the same situation, but it is a defensible rate.
45p/mile now.
regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|
Man at B&Q
> Postman Pat <a...@the-post-office-not.com> posted
>
> >My sister is proposing to charge, 40p/mile, for travelling to see her
> >Mum who is in a care home for dementia.
>
> >The LPOA agreement says 'out of pocket expenses only'.
>
> Well she *is* out of pocket. Cars don't run on air and the costs add up
> over time.
>
> There could possibly be an argument about whether your sister should
> only be reimbursed for the *marginal* cost of travel (i.e. excluding her
> fixed costs like motor insurance), but she is surely entitled to
> something, if she wants it.
>
> There is also a moral question about whether daughters should be
> claiming expenses for visiting their mum,
Anything that reduces Mum's estate before the authorities get their
hands on it (either through care fees or inheritance tax) may be a
good thing.
MBQ
Man at B&Q
wrote:
> It just shows what some relatives will do to grab what is a
> relatively small sum of money from the elderly who can not make the
> decsions themselves
When my father was in a care home we made sure all his grandchildren
(who were named in the will anyway) got reasonable Xmas and birthday
presents. As it was, most of his potential estate was eaten up by the
care home fees. I didn't, and still don't, see it as "grabbing", just
doing our best to shield a lifetimes meagre savings and fulfill his
wishes to leave as much as possible to his descendants.
MBQ
steve robinson
>
> Geoff Berrow <blth...@ckdog.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 03 May 2011 10:45:02 +0100, "steve robinson"
> ><st...@colevalleyinteriors.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >>> If your mother was of sound mind wouldn't she be happy to help
> with >>> the costs?
> > >
> > > The whole point of an LPOA is to cover the legal aspects , to
> > > assist and protect the mother who can no longer manage her
> > > affairs and to protect those that are manageing her affairs.
> > >
> > > Its not a licience for relatives to enrich themselves .
> >
> > By charging 40p a mile? I'd hardly call that 'enriching'.
> >
> > >
> > > When my mother was in a home niether me or my brother would
> > > have dreamed to collect expenses for travelling or chargeing
> > > her to do her washing (she used to prefer my wife to do her
> > > washing) which would have been reasonable.
> >
> > That's your choice.
> >
> > If it would have been reasonable then there is nothing stopping
> > you from doing it. As long as you and your brother agree I see no
> > problem. I'd also consider it reasonable for you wife to be
> > compensated in some way for doing the laundry.
> >
> > It's simpler for me. I have LPOA but I'm an only child.
>
> I have no issue with the reimbursement for the visits, which are
> indeed good for mum.
>
> Whether it is legal as per the LPOA restrictions on Attorneys is a
> whole different matter and I hope you understand that.
>
> My sister has been dead against getting legal advice on this so I
> got some from a solicitor at my expense, and his view is that it is
> OK provided it is not excessive.
This is an expense you can claim , did the solicitor give you advice
on which journeys would be acceptable and those that were not as well
steve robinson
> On Tue, 03 May 2011 14:55:02 +0100, "steve robinson"
> <st...@colevalleyinteriors.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >> > Its not a licience for relatives to enrich themselves .
> >>
> >> By charging 40p a mile? I'd hardly call that 'enriching'.
> >
> > Well what else would you call it , if you assume they have chosen
> > a local nurseing home then your probably looking at a 5 mile
> > round trip Thats £14.00 a week assumming they visit once a day .
>
> I hardly see what that calculation has to do with anything. 40p a
> mile is an accepted rate for traveling expenses whether you agree
> with it or not. It covers fuel, depreciation, wear and tear,
> servicing etc. It's not enriching, its a legitimate expense.
>
> >
Were talking visiting relatives here not as part of your employment.
Do your children request a fee from you when they visit
> >
> > Are they declareing this for tax purposes , does the car insurance
> > cover taking payments
> >
> >>
> >> >
> >> > When my mother was in a home niether me or my brother would
> have >> > dreamed to collect expenses for travelling or chargeing
> her to do >> > her washing (she used to prefer my wife to do her
> washing) which >> > would have been reasonable.
> >>
> >> That's your choice.
> >>
> >> If it would have been reasonable then there is nothing stopping
> you >> from doing it. As long as you and your brother agree I see no
> >> problem. I'd also consider it reasonable for you wife to be
> >> compensated in some way for doing the laundry.
> >>
> >> It's simpler for me. I have LPOA but I'm an only child.
> >
> >
> > It just shows what some relatives will do to grab what is a
> > relatively small sum of money from the elderly who can not make
> > the decsions themselves
>
> That's nothing but a statement from your own moral standpoint. For
> all you know the mother, in her right mind may well have been
> willing to fund the car as well as the running costs. I know my
> mother would.
She may well also have said bugger off you have had enough already
we dont know , same with your mum from a legal POV we dont know what
she would have said only what you think she may have said
This is why we need an LPOA to protect those that cant help
themselves from those that will help themselves
the Omrud
Gosh, I hadn't noticed that, thanks. Although I'm sure my Self
Assessment software will get it right when the time comes.
--
David
Percy Picacity
news:xn0hdom7...@news.eternal-september.org:
Maybe it is better to regard the money as subsidy to facilitate
visiting by relatives (who just happen to hold the LPOA) rather than
an expense of the LPOA donee role. The rules are different, though
this would still require justification.
--
Percy Picacity
steve robinson
That is entirely different as it would be reasonable to assume this
is something your father would have agreed to and those that are
running his affairs are not drectly or indirectly benefiting .
Percy Picacity
There is nothing wrong with those running his affairs also being in
the class of people who receive such a benefit. Of course, the
potential conflict of interest means that they have to be careful to
show that they reached this conclusion properly.
--
Percy Picacity
Geoff Berrow
<st...@colevalleyinteriors.co.uk> wrote:
>
>Do your children request a fee from you when they visit
No, but it usually ends up costing me money...
Geoff Berrow
Spot on. In fact I think it is your duty to ensure that as much of
the money is passed on as possible, and that as little as possible
goes to the state.
Geoff Berrow
<a...@the-post-office-not.com> wrote:
>What I could do is get a mate of mine to fix mum's gutters and charge
>£1000 for an hour's work. OK, it's a ripoff but loads of tradesmen are
>ripoff merchants, and this would not be illegal in itself.
>
>I can also get a mate of mine to take mum out for a walk and charge
>£50 for it. May be slightly distasteful but it can't be illegal.
>
>What is a bit more "grey" is if that tradesman happened to be related
>to me or living with me or in a relationship with me.... get my
>drift??
Let's put it this way. $BigCompanies use any legal means possible to
avoid paying tax, however distasteful. The alternative is giving it
to the government.
Mr Pounder
"Periander" <ulm@.4rubbish.britwar.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Xns9ED9B5C6B96D...@69.16.176.253...
> Postman Pat <a...@the-post-office-not.com> wrote in
> news:fuhtr61ldaen0kvo2...@4ax.com:
>
> .....
>>
>> What do people here think?
>
> be tempted to play hard boil and ask to see what LPoA business required
> her
> to make these visits and to see excatly what LPAoA business was conducted
> on these visits.
>
> After all the expenses are omly payable in respect of out of pocket
> expenses relating to the the LPoA and not in respect of any social
> visiting.
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Periander
>
Ever been to Blackpool?
Periander
@newsfe17.ams2:
>>
> Ever been to Blackpool?
Strange question but yes I used to go regularly when I was younger and
still lived in Lancs? Was I writing in dialect?
--
Regards,
Periander