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ID document lost in post
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Mark
Jul 18, 2012, 4:20:02 AM7/18/12
to
My son has had to send ID documents off to various organisations
recently. He always sends them by a guaranteed service such as RM
special delivery. However one organisation has returned them (or so
they claim) by regular post and they have not arrived back. The
company in question is not being helpful. Personally I think this is
negligent but, in any case, can we legally get compensation for this
and who from? The company is telling us to go to RM but I suspect
they are trying to pass the buck.
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) If a man stands in a forest and no woman is around
(")_(") is he still wrong?
recently. He always sends them by a guaranteed service such as RM
special delivery. However one organisation has returned them (or so
they claim) by regular post and they have not arrived back. The
company in question is not being helpful. Personally I think this is
negligent but, in any case, can we legally get compensation for this
and who from? The company is telling us to go to RM but I suspect
they are trying to pass the buck.
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) If a man stands in a forest and no woman is around
(")_(") is he still wrong?
Man at B&Q
Jul 18, 2012, 4:40:03 AM7/18/12
to
On Jul 18, 9:20 am, Mark <i...@dontgetlotsofspamanymore.invalid>
wrote:
the sender who has (or should have) any paperwork relating to the
posting of the documents.
MBQ
wrote:
> My son has had to send ID documents off to various organisations
> recently. He always sends them by a guaranteed service such as RM
> special delivery. However one organisation has returned them (or so
> they claim) by regular post and they have not arrived back. The
> company in question is not being helpful. Personally I think this is
> negligent but, in any case, can we legally get compensation for this
> and who from? The company is telling us to go to RM but I suspect
> they are trying to pass the buck.
I believe it's the sender who has to make any claim against RM. It's
> recently. He always sends them by a guaranteed service such as RM
> special delivery. However one organisation has returned them (or so
> they claim) by regular post and they have not arrived back. The
> company in question is not being helpful. Personally I think this is
> negligent but, in any case, can we legally get compensation for this
> and who from? The company is telling us to go to RM but I suspect
> they are trying to pass the buck.
the sender who has (or should have) any paperwork relating to the
posting of the documents.
MBQ
Iain
Jul 18, 2012, 5:30:03 AM7/18/12
to
Mark wrote:
> My son has had to send ID documents off to various organisations
> recently. He always sends them by a guaranteed service such as RM
> special delivery. However one organisation has returned them (or so
> they claim) by regular post and they have not arrived back. The
> company in question is not being helpful. Personally I think this is
> negligent but, in any case, can we legally get compensation for this
> and who from? The company is telling us to go to RM but I suspect
> they are trying to pass the buck.
It certainly sounds like that. They have confirmed having received it, but
> My son has had to send ID documents off to various organisations
> recently. He always sends them by a guaranteed service such as RM
> special delivery. However one organisation has returned them (or so
> they claim) by regular post and they have not arrived back. The
> company in question is not being helpful. Personally I think this is
> negligent but, in any case, can we legally get compensation for this
> and who from? The company is telling us to go to RM but I suspect
> they are trying to pass the buck.
beyond that, it cannot be found. I think that it is reasonable for you to
ask them to chase it up, after all, they would have all of the necessary
sending information. And then if it cannot be traced, ask them for a
replacement, or the means to acquire a replacement (compensation).
However, if it's a prospective employer, that may not be too easy.
IANAL
I NEVER send out original documents to anyone now, and I tell them that. If
they are then that desperate for an original, I ask them to make
arrangements for them to receive it, and tell them that they are responsible
for any loss; or for them to be responsible for a certified copy to be made.
So far, photocopies or faxed copies have subsequently been acceptable.
There are too many organisations that lose documents. Then there used to be
the game of them saying that they sent the document back (as with you), and
the to-ing and fro-ing with the carrier (normally the post office). And
after that, you had to arrange for some form of replacement document. That
does not happen now.
--
Iain
Matthew Vernon
Jul 18, 2012, 5:35:03 AM7/18/12
to
"Iain" <sp...@smaps.net> writes:
> I NEVER send out original documents to anyone now, and I tell them
> that.
This is fine and good, but DVLA will post you your driving licence
> I NEVER send out original documents to anyone now, and I tell them
> that.
(updated for new address / photo / etc) by second-class post...
Matthew
--
`O'-----0 `O'---. `O'---. `O'---.
\___| | \___|0-/ \___|/ \___|
| | /\ | | \ | |\ | |
The Dangers of modern veterinary life
Roland Perry
Jul 18, 2012, 5:40:03 AM7/18/12
to
In message <a6ndpd...@mid.individual.net>, at 10:30:03 on Wed, 18 Jul
2012, Iain <sp...@smaps.net> remarked:
usual ID stuff (despite me having an account with them for about 40
years) in order to change my address.
I thought this was bad policy, because it was only likely to delay
things, and so they'd be sending stuff to my old address, incorrectly.
Anyway, I did it, they took copies, then lost them. About a month later
they wrote to me saying "aren't you ever going to come in and show us
your ID?" Of course, they denied I'd ever been in the first time,
because they had no record of it.
--
Roland Perry
2012, Iain <sp...@smaps.net> remarked:
>There are too many organisations that lose documents.
And they lose copies too. A bank insisted I went into a branch with the
usual ID stuff (despite me having an account with them for about 40
years) in order to change my address.
I thought this was bad policy, because it was only likely to delay
things, and so they'd be sending stuff to my old address, incorrectly.
Anyway, I did it, they took copies, then lost them. About a month later
they wrote to me saying "aren't you ever going to come in and show us
your ID?" Of course, they denied I'd ever been in the first time,
because they had no record of it.
--
Roland Perry
Iain
Jul 18, 2012, 6:50:02 AM7/18/12
to
Matthew Vernon wrote:
> "Iain" <sp...@smaps.net> writes:
>
> > I NEVER send out original documents to anyone now, and I tell them
> > that.
>
> This is fine and good, but DVLA will post you your driving licence
> (updated for new address / photo / etc) by second-class post...
In theory, surely, there is equal risk whether it is sent first or second
> "Iain" <sp...@smaps.net> writes:
>
> > I NEVER send out original documents to anyone now, and I tell them
> > that.
>
> This is fine and good, but DVLA will post you your driving licence
> (updated for new address / photo / etc) by second-class post...
class - it just takes that little bit longer with second class. The
difference however with first class is that it is the legally acceptable
method of posting (eg. serving), whereas I believe that second class does
not count.
IANAL
--
Iain
Roland Perry
Jul 18, 2012, 7:30:03 AM7/18/12
to
In message <a6nign...@mid.individual.net>, at 11:50:02 on Wed, 18 Jul
2012, Iain <sp...@smaps.net> remarked:
to bigger regional depots for sorting. The risk of getting "lost" may
well depend on how far it travels, and which offices it's sorted in.
--
Roland Perry
2012, Iain <sp...@smaps.net> remarked:
>In theory, surely, there is equal risk whether it is sent first or
>second class - it just takes that little bit longer with second class.
iirc One of the reasons second class takes longer is that it's trucked
>second class - it just takes that little bit longer with second class.
to bigger regional depots for sorting. The risk of getting "lost" may
well depend on how far it travels, and which offices it's sorted in.
--
Roland Perry
Mark
Jul 18, 2012, 8:05:04 AM7/18/12
to
On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 10:30:03 +0100, "Iain" <sp...@smaps.net> wrote:
>Mark wrote:
>> My son has had to send ID documents off to various organisations
>> recently. He always sends them by a guaranteed service such as RM
>> special delivery. However one organisation has returned them (or so
>> they claim) by regular post and they have not arrived back. The
>> company in question is not being helpful. Personally I think this is
>> negligent but, in any case, can we legally get compensation for this
>> and who from? The company is telling us to go to RM but I suspect
>> they are trying to pass the buck.
>
>It certainly sounds like that. They have confirmed having received it, but
>beyond that, it cannot be found. I think that it is reasonable for you to
>ask them to chase it up, after all, they would have all of the necessary
>sending information. And then if it cannot be traced, ask them for a
>replacement, or the means to acquire a replacement (compensation).
>However, if it's a prospective employer, that may not be too easy.
It's not an employer.
>Mark wrote:
>> My son has had to send ID documents off to various organisations
>> recently. He always sends them by a guaranteed service such as RM
>> special delivery. However one organisation has returned them (or so
>> they claim) by regular post and they have not arrived back. The
>> company in question is not being helpful. Personally I think this is
>> negligent but, in any case, can we legally get compensation for this
>> and who from? The company is telling us to go to RM but I suspect
>> they are trying to pass the buck.
>
>It certainly sounds like that. They have confirmed having received it, but
>beyond that, it cannot be found. I think that it is reasonable for you to
>ask them to chase it up, after all, they would have all of the necessary
>sending information. And then if it cannot be traced, ask them for a
>replacement, or the means to acquire a replacement (compensation).
>However, if it's a prospective employer, that may not be too easy.
>I NEVER send out original documents to anyone now, and I tell them that. If
>they are then that desperate for an original, I ask them to make
>arrangements for them to receive it, and tell them that they are responsible
>for any loss; or for them to be responsible for a certified copy to be made.
>So far, photocopies or faxed copies have subsequently been acceptable.
>There are too many organisations that lose documents. Then there used to be
>the game of them saying that they sent the document back (as with you), and
>the to-ing and fro-ing with the carrier (normally the post office). And
>after that, you had to arrange for some form of replacement document. That
>does not happen now.
"original documents only - copies not accepted". The form had no
space for additional instructions. If something is not to their
satisfaction then they just reject the form and you have to start all
over again.
Jon Ribbens
Jul 18, 2012, 8:15:03 AM7/18/12
to
On 2012-07-18, Man at B&Q <manat...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 18, 9:20 am, Mark <i...@dontgetlotsofspamanymore.invalid>
> wrote:
>> My son has had to send ID documents off to various organisations
>> recently. He always sends them by a guaranteed service such as RM
>> special delivery. However one organisation has returned them (or so
>> they claim) by regular post and they have not arrived back. The
>> company in question is not being helpful. Personally I think this is
>> negligent but, in any case, can we legally get compensation for this
>> and who from? The company is telling us to go to RM but I suspect
>> they are trying to pass the buck.
>
> I believe it's the sender who has to make any claim against RM.
No, that's not right. It's one of the advantages of Royal Mail versus
> On Jul 18, 9:20 am, Mark <i...@dontgetlotsofspamanymore.invalid>
> wrote:
>> My son has had to send ID documents off to various organisations
>> recently. He always sends them by a guaranteed service such as RM
>> special delivery. However one organisation has returned them (or so
>> they claim) by regular post and they have not arrived back. The
>> company in question is not being helpful. Personally I think this is
>> negligent but, in any case, can we legally get compensation for this
>> and who from? The company is telling us to go to RM but I suspect
>> they are trying to pass the buck.
>
> I believe it's the sender who has to make any claim against RM.
other couriers etc, that they will treat the recipient as someone who
is actually entitled to have an interest in the receipt of their mail.
Periander
Jul 18, 2012, 8:20:02 AM7/18/12
to
On 18-Jul-2012, "Iain" <sp...@smaps.net> wrote:
> I NEVER send out original documents to anyone now, and I tell them that.
> If they are then that desperate for an original
all the higher education you're ever going to seek and so forth but the
bottom line is that forgeries abound. A prospective employer or provider of
education has a legal duty to ensure that whoever he takes on has the right
to work/study in the UK. If it's one of a number of particular occupations
then further checks need to be made on prospective
employees/students/volunteers and in order to satisfy the requirements of
these checks is the original documents have to be inspected to reduce the
chance of fraud/deception.
And of course with around 6 million people looking for work if a person
isn't prepared to dance to an employer's tune then they're going to stay
unemployed etc
Your approach may well work for you but were you to recommend it to others
I'd sugest that you'd be being foolish.
--
All the best,
Periander
IF you think this http://bit.ly/u5EP3p is cruel
please sign this http://bit.ly/sKkzEx
Dave M.
Jul 18, 2012, 9:20:03 AM7/18/12
to
Mark,
but, in any case, can we legally get compensation for this
> and who from? The company is telling us to go to RM but I suspect
> they are trying to pass the buck.
There does not seem to be unusual negligence. Mail does get lost. You may
ask RM for compensation. I doubt that you will receive any. One hopes that
this ID did not cost too much.
Good luck,
Dave M.
but, in any case, can we legally get compensation for this
> and who from? The company is telling us to go to RM but I suspect
> they are trying to pass the buck.
ask RM for compensation. I doubt that you will receive any. One hopes that
this ID did not cost too much.
Good luck,
Dave M.
Janet
Jul 18, 2012, 10:45:05 AM7/18/12
to
In article <q$IDNT4JQ...@perry.co.uk>, rol...@perry.co.uk says...
Maybe you should have asked the bank person who took copies of your
documents, to provide evidence of their own ID and give you a photocopy. A
personal letter from the bank would do; or a photo drivers license...
Janet
documents, to provide evidence of their own ID and give you a photocopy. A
personal letter from the bank would do; or a photo drivers license...
Janet
Roland Perry
Jul 18, 2012, 10:55:02 AM7/18/12
to
In message <ju6d1d$cno$1...@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:03 on Wed, 18 Jul
2012, Dave M. <mart...@frontier.com> remarked:
Of course, if we cost people's time (eg at £50-something an hour
according to the HS2 planners) the cost could be considerable.
The question is - can you claim the sender was negligent in not using
Special Delivery, and thus claim the balance from them. Think of it as
them "self insuring" for such situations.
Some folks (eg the US Embassy) recommend you to send them a pre-paid
Special Delivery envelope, which would discharge the responsibility.
--
Roland Perry
2012, Dave M. <mart...@frontier.com> remarked:
>You may ask RM for compensation. I doubt that you will receive any. One
>hopes that this ID did not cost too much.
If it was sent by normal post, the limit is £46 I think.
>hopes that this ID did not cost too much.
Of course, if we cost people's time (eg at £50-something an hour
according to the HS2 planners) the cost could be considerable.
The question is - can you claim the sender was negligent in not using
Special Delivery, and thus claim the balance from them. Think of it as
them "self insuring" for such situations.
Some folks (eg the US Embassy) recommend you to send them a pre-paid
Special Delivery envelope, which would discharge the responsibility.
--
Roland Perry
Mark Goodge
Jul 18, 2012, 1:00:06 PM7/18/12
to
On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 13:15:03 +0100, Jon Ribbens put finger to keyboard and
typed:
Yes, but that's probably not relevant here because RM will only meet claims
for the "market value" of lost goods sent by normal post. ID documents
don't have a market value; the loss of them is consequential and not
covered by RM's compensation scheme.[1]
Under those circumstances, I would agree with the OP that the sender is
negligent in not using a service (such as Special Delivery) which does
provide compensation for consequential loss in the event of non-delivery.
I would have thought that the OP's son has a very good claim for damages
against the sender. Precisely how much depends on the actual cost of
getting replacement documents and the level of inconvenience that entails.
[1]
http://www.royalmail.com/customer-service/personal-customers/refunds-and-compensation/claims-process/compensation-tables/compensation-lost
Mark
--
Blog: http://mark.goodge.co.uk
Stuff: http://www.good-stuff.co.uk
typed:
for the "market value" of lost goods sent by normal post. ID documents
don't have a market value; the loss of them is consequential and not
covered by RM's compensation scheme.[1]
Under those circumstances, I would agree with the OP that the sender is
negligent in not using a service (such as Special Delivery) which does
provide compensation for consequential loss in the event of non-delivery.
I would have thought that the OP's son has a very good claim for damages
against the sender. Precisely how much depends on the actual cost of
getting replacement documents and the level of inconvenience that entails.
[1]
http://www.royalmail.com/customer-service/personal-customers/refunds-and-compensation/claims-process/compensation-tables/compensation-lost
Mark
--
Blog: http://mark.goodge.co.uk
Stuff: http://www.good-stuff.co.uk
Mark Goodge
Jul 18, 2012, 1:00:14 PM7/18/12
to
On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 10:35:03 +0100, Matthew Vernon put finger to keyboard
and typed:
>"Iain" <sp...@smaps.net> writes:
>
>> I NEVER send out original documents to anyone now, and I tell them
>> that.
>
>This is fine and good, but DVLA will post you your driving licence
>(updated for new address / photo / etc) by second-class post...
Yes, but DVLA can easily print and send another one if the one they sent is
lost. It's not like the OP's situation where the documents came from
another source and can't easily be recreated.
and typed:
>"Iain" <sp...@smaps.net> writes:
>
>> I NEVER send out original documents to anyone now, and I tell them
>> that.
>
>This is fine and good, but DVLA will post you your driving licence
>(updated for new address / photo / etc) by second-class post...
lost. It's not like the OP's situation where the documents came from
another source and can't easily be recreated.
Roland Perry
Jul 18, 2012, 1:55:01 PM7/18/12
to
In message <16qd08ljlds0bcs95...@news.markshouse.net>, at
18:00:06 on Wed, 18 Jul 2012, Mark Goodge
<use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> remarked:
--
Roland Perry
18:00:06 on Wed, 18 Jul 2012, Mark Goodge
<use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> remarked:
>RM will only meet claims for the "market value" of lost goods sent by
>normal post. ID documents don't have a market value; the loss of them
>is consequential and not covered by RM's compensation scheme.[1]
So there's no market for stolen passports. Really?
>normal post. ID documents don't have a market value; the loss of them
>is consequential and not covered by RM's compensation scheme.[1]
--
Roland Perry
Roland Perry
Jul 18, 2012, 2:00:05 PM7/18/12
to
In message <6kqd085arf563mvls...@news.markshouse.net>, at
18:00:14 on Wed, 18 Jul 2012, Mark Goodge
<use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> remarked:
re-creatability of the documents in question.
Some, of course, can never be re-created, like a [copy of, for pedants]
birth certificate issued when born. A fresh copy is much less well
regarded by serious people examining them.
--
Roland Perry
18:00:14 on Wed, 18 Jul 2012, Mark Goodge
<use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> remarked:
>DVLA can easily print and send another one if the one they sent is
>lost. It's not like the OP's situation where the documents came from
>another source and can't easily be recreated.
I don't think the OP ever gave us any information about the
>lost. It's not like the OP's situation where the documents came from
>another source and can't easily be recreated.
re-creatability of the documents in question.
Some, of course, can never be re-created, like a [copy of, for pedants]
birth certificate issued when born. A fresh copy is much less well
regarded by serious people examining them.
--
Roland Perry
Roland Perry
Jul 18, 2012, 11:15:03 AM7/18/12
to
In message <MPG.2a70d9e3d...@news.eternal-september.org>, at
15:45:05 on Wed, 18 Jul 2012, Janet <H...@invalid.net> remarked:
had been manning their customer service desk (which are landside rather
than airside these days) when I attended the first time, and had been
collecting lots of financial information from customers before running
off and using it to do various fraudulent activity.
That got their attention! Especially as they asked me for a description
of the person, and they couldn't immediately match it to a genuine
staffer.
Later, they said it was someone temporarily assigned to the branch, but
I suppose that leaves us wondering whether the more plausible story is
mine or theirs. (Theirs includes the unexplained disappearance of the
paperwork internally, of course).
--
Roland Perry
15:45:05 on Wed, 18 Jul 2012, Janet <H...@invalid.net> remarked:
>> >There are too many organisations that lose documents.
>>
>> And they lose copies too. A bank insisted I went into a branch with the
>> usual ID stuff (despite me having an account with them for about 40
>> years) in order to change my address.
>>
>> I thought this was bad policy, because it was only likely to delay
>> things, and so they'd be sending stuff to my old address, incorrectly.
>>
>> Anyway, I did it, they took copies, then lost them. About a month later
>> they wrote to me saying "aren't you ever going to come in and show us
>> your ID?" Of course, they denied I'd ever been in the first time,
>> because they had no record of it.
>
> Maybe you should have asked the bank person who took copies of your
>documents, to provide evidence of their own ID and give you a photocopy.
I started off the second visit by suggesting that perhaps an impostor
>>
>> And they lose copies too. A bank insisted I went into a branch with the
>> usual ID stuff (despite me having an account with them for about 40
>> years) in order to change my address.
>>
>> I thought this was bad policy, because it was only likely to delay
>> things, and so they'd be sending stuff to my old address, incorrectly.
>>
>> Anyway, I did it, they took copies, then lost them. About a month later
>> they wrote to me saying "aren't you ever going to come in and show us
>> your ID?" Of course, they denied I'd ever been in the first time,
>> because they had no record of it.
>
> Maybe you should have asked the bank person who took copies of your
>documents, to provide evidence of their own ID and give you a photocopy.
had been manning their customer service desk (which are landside rather
than airside these days) when I attended the first time, and had been
collecting lots of financial information from customers before running
off and using it to do various fraudulent activity.
That got their attention! Especially as they asked me for a description
of the person, and they couldn't immediately match it to a genuine
staffer.
Later, they said it was someone temporarily assigned to the branch, but
I suppose that leaves us wondering whether the more plausible story is
mine or theirs. (Theirs includes the unexplained disappearance of the
paperwork internally, of course).
--
Roland Perry
Iain
Jul 18, 2012, 11:40:03 AM7/18/12
to
Periander wrote:
> On 18-Jul-2012, "Iain" <sp...@smaps.net> wrote:
>
> > I NEVER send out original documents to anyone now, and I tell them
> > that. If they are then that desperate for an original
>
> That's cool for you maybe, perhaps you have settled employment,
> completed all the higher education you're ever going to seek and so
> forth but the bottom line is that forgeries abound. A prospective
> employer or provider of education has a legal duty to ensure that
> whoever he takes on has the right to work/study in the UK. If it's
> one of a number of particular occupations then further checks need to
> be made on prospective employees/students/volunteers and in order to
> satisfy the requirements of these checks is the original documents
> have to be inspected to reduce the chance of fraud/deception.
>
> And of course with around 6 million people looking for work if a
> person isn't prepared to dance to an employer's tune then they're
> going to stay unemployed etc
>
> Your approach may well work for you but were you to recommend it to
> others I'd sugest that you'd be being foolish.
That doesn't mean that they do not get (either to see or to copy) the
> On 18-Jul-2012, "Iain" <sp...@smaps.net> wrote:
>
> > I NEVER send out original documents to anyone now, and I tell them
> > that. If they are then that desperate for an original
>
> That's cool for you maybe, perhaps you have settled employment,
> completed all the higher education you're ever going to seek and so
> forth but the bottom line is that forgeries abound. A prospective
> employer or provider of education has a legal duty to ensure that
> whoever he takes on has the right to work/study in the UK. If it's
> one of a number of particular occupations then further checks need to
> be made on prospective employees/students/volunteers and in order to
> satisfy the requirements of these checks is the original documents
> have to be inspected to reduce the chance of fraud/deception.
>
> And of course with around 6 million people looking for work if a
> person isn't prepared to dance to an employer's tune then they're
> going to stay unemployed etc
>
> Your approach may well work for you but were you to recommend it to
> others I'd sugest that you'd be being foolish.
document - I just do not send it out. I might bring it with me on a
separate occasion, but the original document does not get out of my control.
--
Iain
Alex Heney
Jul 18, 2012, 4:45:03 PM7/18/12
to
On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 19:00:05 +0100, Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk>
wrote:
Apart from all the people who would have any legitimate requirement to
see them, who will (as they have to) accept a recent copy exactly the
same as an old one.
I'm not sure who the "serious people" you refer to might be, or what
purpose they have that they might regard them "less well".
--
Alex Heney, Global Villager
Man who get hit by car, get that run down feeling
To reply by email, my address is alexDOTheneyATgmailDOTcom
wrote:
see them, who will (as they have to) accept a recent copy exactly the
same as an old one.
I'm not sure who the "serious people" you refer to might be, or what
purpose they have that they might regard them "less well".
--
Alex Heney, Global Villager
Man who get hit by car, get that run down feeling
To reply by email, my address is alexDOTheneyATgmailDOTcom
Alex Heney
Jul 18, 2012, 4:55:03 PM7/18/12
to
On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 14:20:03 +0100, "Dave M." <mart...@frontier.com>
wrote:
>Mark,
>
>
> but, in any case, can we legally get compensation for this
>> and who from? The company is telling us to go to RM but I suspect
>> they are trying to pass the buck.
>
> There does not seem to be unusual negligence.
There very clearly is.
>Mail does get lost.
Which is why it is negligent to send important documents by ordinary
mail.
Such thing should *always* be sent by one of the methods which records
the despatch and delivery and insures against loss, and it is
negligent to do otherwise.
--
Alex Heney, Global Villager
Radioactive halibut will make fission chips.
wrote:
>Mark,
>
>
> but, in any case, can we legally get compensation for this
>> and who from? The company is telling us to go to RM but I suspect
>> they are trying to pass the buck.
>
> There does not seem to be unusual negligence.
>Mail does get lost.
Which is why it is negligent to send important documents by ordinary
mail.
Such thing should *always* be sent by one of the methods which records
the despatch and delivery and insures against loss, and it is
negligent to do otherwise.
--
Alex Heney, Global Villager
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
davi...@gmail.com
Jul 18, 2012, 5:15:03 PM7/18/12
to
On Wednesday, July 18, 2012 10:05:02 PM UTC+1, August West wrote:
> Are they? They're legally identical extracts (at least in Scotland).
And elsewhere, but in practice some places will give more weight to one issued at the time of birth, given that it's rather more likely to belong to the person named on it than one extracted last week (e.g. they'll ask for 3 ID documents if you don't have it but only 2 if one of them is an "original" birth certificate). Obviously they can't demand that anyone produces an issued-at-birth certificate.
> Are they? They're legally identical extracts (at least in Scotland).
And elsewhere, but in practice some places will give more weight to one issued at the time of birth, given that it's rather more likely to belong to the person named on it than one extracted last week (e.g. they'll ask for 3 ID documents if you don't have it but only 2 if one of them is an "original" birth certificate). Obviously they can't demand that anyone produces an issued-at-birth certificate.
Robin Bignall
Jul 18, 2012, 5:20:02 PM7/18/12
to
On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 15:55:02 +0100, Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk>
wrote:
That assumes that the recipient is going to use the envelope; if they
are abroad, you can't depend on anything. About half of my income
derives from foreign pensions earned when I lived and worked overseas.
From time to time they send me, through the regular post, a form that I
have to fill in and have stamped by the consulate to prove I'm still
alive. If they don't receive it within three months they stop paying
the pension, which was created in the first place by my contributions,
so it's my money, not theirs. I send my replies 'signed for' and have
asked them if they could use registered post to send me the forms, at my
expense, because if one got lost in the post I'd never know until the
pension stopped. Once stopped, even if you then prove you're still
alive, you never get the lost months reimbursed.
Their serious reply is that mail does not get lost in France, and that I
have chosen to live elsewhere!
--
Robin Bignall
Herts, England
wrote:
are abroad, you can't depend on anything. About half of my income
derives from foreign pensions earned when I lived and worked overseas.
From time to time they send me, through the regular post, a form that I
have to fill in and have stamped by the consulate to prove I'm still
alive. If they don't receive it within three months they stop paying
the pension, which was created in the first place by my contributions,
so it's my money, not theirs. I send my replies 'signed for' and have
asked them if they could use registered post to send me the forms, at my
expense, because if one got lost in the post I'd never know until the
pension stopped. Once stopped, even if you then prove you're still
alive, you never get the lost months reimbursed.
Their serious reply is that mail does not get lost in France, and that I
have chosen to live elsewhere!
--
Robin Bignall
Herts, England
Roland Perry
Jul 18, 2012, 5:20:10 PM7/18/12
to
In message <lp7e085r5h9sefiea...@4ax.com>, at 21:45:03 on
Wed, 18 Jul 2012, Alex Heney <m...@privacy.net> remarked:
the 'original'. There are plenty of people whose job it is to look at a
range of ID documents and decide if they need to make further enquiries
who will award you a lot more points for producing the 'original'.
--
Roland Perry
Wed, 18 Jul 2012, Alex Heney <m...@privacy.net> remarked:
>>Some, of course, can never be re-created, like a [copy of, for pedants]
>>birth certificate issued when born. A fresh copy is much less well
>>regarded by serious people examining them.
>
>Apart from all the people who would have any legitimate requirement to
>see them, who will (as they have to) accept a recent copy exactly the
>same as an old one.
>
>I'm not sure who the "serious people" you refer to might be, or what
>purpose they have that they might regard them "less well".
Anyone can get a recent copy, much more difficult to get your hands on
>>birth certificate issued when born. A fresh copy is much less well
>>regarded by serious people examining them.
>
>Apart from all the people who would have any legitimate requirement to
>see them, who will (as they have to) accept a recent copy exactly the
>same as an old one.
>
>I'm not sure who the "serious people" you refer to might be, or what
>purpose they have that they might regard them "less well".
the 'original'. There are plenty of people whose job it is to look at a
range of ID documents and decide if they need to make further enquiries
who will award you a lot more points for producing the 'original'.
--
Roland Perry
Message has been deleted
Stuart A. Bronstein
Jul 18, 2012, 7:35:02 PM7/18/12
to
August West <aug...@kororaa.com> wrote:
Can't replacement cost be used as a measure of damages? Why wouldn't
it apply in claims with RM?
___
Stu
http://DownToEarthLawyer.com
> The entity calling itself Roland Perry wrote:
>> Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> remarked:
>>> RM will only meet claims for the "market value" of lost goods
>>> sent by normal post. ID documents don't have a market value;
>>> the loss of them is consequential and not covered by RM's
>>> compensation scheme.[1]
>>
>> So there's no market for stolen passports. Really?
>
> *Legal* market value. (Ex turpi causa non oritur actio.)
>> Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> remarked:
>>> RM will only meet claims for the "market value" of lost goods
>>> sent by normal post. ID documents don't have a market value;
>>> the loss of them is consequential and not covered by RM's
>>> compensation scheme.[1]
>>
>> So there's no market for stolen passports. Really?
>
Can't replacement cost be used as a measure of damages? Why wouldn't
it apply in claims with RM?
___
Stu
http://DownToEarthLawyer.com
Roland Perry
Jul 19, 2012, 1:30:02 AM7/19/12
to
In message <87liig9...@news2.kororaa.com>, at 22:30:02 on Wed, 18
Jul 2012, August West <aug...@kororaa.com> remarked:
It's one of a "range of documents" which together form an acceptable
degree of proof.
>After al, they do have printed on them "WARNING: A CERTIFICATE IS NOT
>EVIDENCE OF IDENTITY".
Only since about 1992, think. Certainly not on mine from the 50's.
The Passport Service take the view that "A birth certificate is not
considered absolute proof of identity" but is nevertheless a step on
that path.
--
Roland Perry
Jul 2012, August West <aug...@kororaa.com> remarked:
>> Anyone can get a recent copy, much more difficult to get your hands on
>> the 'original'. There are plenty of people whose job it is to look at
>> a range of ID documents and decide if they need to make further
>> enquiries who will award you a lot more points for producing the
>> original'.
>
>Is a birth certificate really accepted as an identity document?
>> the 'original'. There are plenty of people whose job it is to look at
>> a range of ID documents and decide if they need to make further
>> enquiries who will award you a lot more points for producing the
>> original'.
>
It's one of a "range of documents" which together form an acceptable
degree of proof.
>After al, they do have printed on them "WARNING: A CERTIFICATE IS NOT
>EVIDENCE OF IDENTITY".
Only since about 1992, think. Certainly not on mine from the 50's.
The Passport Service take the view that "A birth certificate is not
considered absolute proof of identity" but is nevertheless a step on
that path.
--
Roland Perry
Roland Perry
Jul 19, 2012, 1:35:05 AM7/19/12
to
In message <3a9e081794cio9mji...@4ax.com>, at 22:20:02 on
Wed, 18 Jul 2012, Robin Bignall <docr...@ntlworld.com> remarked:
"abroad" is something we could debate another time.
> About half of my income
>derives from foreign pensions earned when I lived and worked overseas.
>From time to time they send me, through the regular post, a form that I
>have to fill in and have stamped by the consulate to prove I'm still
>alive. If they don't receive it within three months they stop paying
>the pension, which was created in the first place by my contributions,
>so it's my money, not theirs. I send my replies 'signed for' and have
>asked them if they could use registered post to send me the forms, at my
>expense, because if one got lost in the post I'd never know until the
>pension stopped. Once stopped, even if you then prove you're still
>alive, you never get the lost months reimbursed.
>Their serious reply is that mail does not get lost in France, and that I
>have chosen to live elsewhere!
That's a slightly different scenario from sending them something that
you require sending *back* to you by a more secure form of postage.
(Which is the case when you leave a passport with the US Embassy for
them to include a visa, and send back to you later).
--
Roland Perry
Wed, 18 Jul 2012, Robin Bignall <docr...@ntlworld.com> remarked:
>>Some folks (eg the US Embassy) recommend you to send them a pre-paid
>>Special Delivery envelope, which would discharge the responsibility.
>
>That assumes that the recipient is going to use the envelope; if they
>are abroad, you can't depend on anything.
The US Embassy is in Grosvenor Square. Whether it's also legally
>>Special Delivery envelope, which would discharge the responsibility.
>
>That assumes that the recipient is going to use the envelope; if they
>are abroad, you can't depend on anything.
"abroad" is something we could debate another time.
> About half of my income
>derives from foreign pensions earned when I lived and worked overseas.
>From time to time they send me, through the regular post, a form that I
>have to fill in and have stamped by the consulate to prove I'm still
>alive. If they don't receive it within three months they stop paying
>the pension, which was created in the first place by my contributions,
>so it's my money, not theirs. I send my replies 'signed for' and have
>asked them if they could use registered post to send me the forms, at my
>expense, because if one got lost in the post I'd never know until the
>pension stopped. Once stopped, even if you then prove you're still
>alive, you never get the lost months reimbursed.
>Their serious reply is that mail does not get lost in France, and that I
>have chosen to live elsewhere!
you require sending *back* to you by a more secure form of postage.
(Which is the case when you leave a passport with the US Embassy for
them to include a visa, and send back to you later).
--
Roland Perry
Mark
Jul 19, 2012, 4:20:02 AM7/19/12
to
for a fee. Can we claim for incovenience and, if so, how could this
be calculated?
(At least the organisation have changed their minds and are now not
expecting us to resend the birth certificate back to them!)
David McNeish
Jul 19, 2012, 4:50:03 AM7/19/12
to
On Jul 18, 10:30 pm, August West <aug...@kororaa.com> wrote:
> Is a birth certificate really accepted as an identity document? After
person named on this certificate". It is however evidence that someone
of that name exists (or existed), and what their place and date of
birth was.
> Is a birth certificate really accepted as an identity document? After
> al, they do have printed on them "WARNING: A CERTIFICATE IS NOT EVIDENCE
> OF IDENTITY".
By which (I presume) they mean "the bearer is not necessarily the
> OF IDENTITY".
person named on this certificate". It is however evidence that someone
of that name exists (or existed), and what their place and date of
birth was.
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
Percy Picacity
Jul 19, 2012, 5:45:04 AM7/19/12
to
On 2012-07-19 09:20:10 +0000, August West said:
> Quite. So why should its age be of any moment, if it is always supported
> by other material?
Well, first of all that question contains a logical fallacy. You might
as well say; "Why should a birth certificate be of any moment if it is
always supported by other material?" If you say that about each and
every document supplied, then none of them have any value because none
is adequate alone. The clue is in the word "supported". So let us
answer the more relevant question, why should a birth certificate's age
enhance its evidential value? The theoretical answer is that only the
immediate family of the infant is likely to have acquired one around
the time of birth, whereas anyone can get a current one with little or
no subterfuge. The practical answer is that those who advise on what
is adequate proof say so.
--
Percy Picacity
> by other material?
Well, first of all that question contains a logical fallacy. You might
as well say; "Why should a birth certificate be of any moment if it is
always supported by other material?" If you say that about each and
every document supplied, then none of them have any value because none
is adequate alone. The clue is in the word "supported". So let us
answer the more relevant question, why should a birth certificate's age
enhance its evidential value? The theoretical answer is that only the
immediate family of the infant is likely to have acquired one around
the time of birth, whereas anyone can get a current one with little or
no subterfuge. The practical answer is that those who advise on what
is adequate proof say so.
--
Percy Picacity
David McNeish
Jul 19, 2012, 5:35:02 AM7/19/12
to
On Jul 19, 10:20 am, August West <aug...@kororaa.com> wrote:
> Quite. So why should its age be of any moment, if it is always supported
> by other material?
Because someone committing identity fraud is very unlikely to be able
> Quite. So why should its age be of any moment, if it is always supported
> by other material?
to produce an extract birth certificate issued at the time of birth,
whereas it's trivially easy to obtain a fresh extract.
Roland Perry
Jul 19, 2012, 6:30:03 AM7/19/12
to
In message <87d33s8...@news2.kororaa.com>, at 10:20:03 on Thu, 19
was issued at birth is much more likely to be in the possession of the
individual concerned.
>>> After al, they do have printed on them "WARNING: A CERTIFICATE IS
>>> NOT EVIDENCE OF IDENTITY".
>>
>> Only since about 1992, think. Certainly not on mine from the 50's.
>
>True, but if one is one your "swerious people" one has presumbly seen
>some from the 90s, and is thus aware of the wearning!
Obviously they are aware of all these issues. But a 20yr old original
(with the warning on) is still better evidence than a brand new one.
>> The Passport Service take the view that "A birth certificate is not
>> considered absolute proof of identity" but is nevertheless a step on
>> that path.
>
--
Roland Perry
>> It's one of a "range of documents" which together form an acceptable
>> degree of proof.
>
>> degree of proof.
>
>So why should its age be of any moment, if it is always supported by
>other material?
Because anyone can get a brand new copy of a certificate, but one that
>other material?
was issued at birth is much more likely to be in the possession of the
individual concerned.
>>> After al, they do have printed on them "WARNING: A CERTIFICATE IS
>>> NOT EVIDENCE OF IDENTITY".
>>
>> Only since about 1992, think. Certainly not on mine from the 50's.
>
>some from the 90s, and is thus aware of the wearning!
Obviously they are aware of all these issues. But a 20yr old original
(with the warning on) is still better evidence than a brand new one.
>> The Passport Service take the view that "A birth certificate is not
>> considered absolute proof of identity" but is nevertheless a step on
>> that path.
>
>So why should its age be of any moment, if it is always supported by
>other material?
See above.
>other material?
--
Roland Perry
Dave M.
Jul 19, 2012, 8:40:04 AM7/19/12
to
Roland
The question is - can you claim the sender was negligent in not using
Special Delivery, and thus claim the balance from them. Think of it as
them "self insuring" for such situations.
No. Unless it is explicity required, any delivery service would be
acceptable and RM is a good and well thought of delivery service. There is
no negligence.
The OP has not stated the value of these documents and I suspect that
it's not great. He does have my sympathy but I see no legal help. It's not
clear whether his son has any interest in this matter and this is his son's
business, not his.
Good luck,
Dave M.
The question is - can you claim the sender was negligent in not using
Special Delivery, and thus claim the balance from them. Think of it as
them "self insuring" for such situations.
acceptable and RM is a good and well thought of delivery service. There is
no negligence.
The OP has not stated the value of these documents and I suspect that
it's not great. He does have my sympathy but I see no legal help. It's not
clear whether his son has any interest in this matter and this is his son's
business, not his.
Good luck,
Dave M.
Roland Perry
Jul 19, 2012, 9:20:02 AM7/19/12
to
In message <ju8uv5$gc5$1...@dont-email.me>, at 13:40:04 on Thu, 19 Jul
2012, Dave M. <mart...@frontier.com> remarked:
grill me about "is there anything of value inside", "do I need tracking"
and so on, with the implication that by refusing all of these extras I'm
about to befall a self-inflicted injury.
(No, this isn't just polite reminders that other more expensive
solutions are available, there's tutting and faces being pulled.)
--
Roland Perry
2012, Dave M. <mart...@frontier.com> remarked:
>The question is - can you claim the sender was negligent in not using
>Special Delivery, and thus claim the balance from them. Think of it as
>them "self insuring" for such situations.
----
>Special Delivery, and thus claim the balance from them. Think of it as
>them "self insuring" for such situations.
> No. Unless it is explicity required, any delivery service would be
>acceptable and RM is a good and well thought of delivery service. There is
>no negligence.
On the other hand, whenever I post something at my local sub-office they
>acceptable and RM is a good and well thought of delivery service. There is
>no negligence.
grill me about "is there anything of value inside", "do I need tracking"
and so on, with the implication that by refusing all of these extras I'm
about to befall a self-inflicted injury.
(No, this isn't just polite reminders that other more expensive
solutions are available, there's tutting and faces being pulled.)
--
Roland Perry
Janet
Jul 19, 2012, 4:05:02 PM7/19/12
to
In article <23d29e16-ce45-4620...@googlegroups.com>,
davi...@gmail.com says...
the short version copy.
Janet
davi...@gmail.com says...
>
> On Wednesday, July 18, 2012 10:05:02 PM UTC+1, August West wrote:
>
> > Are they? They're legally identical extracts (at least in Scotland).
>
> And elsewhere, but in practice some places will give more weight to one issued at the time of birth, given that it's rather more likely to belong to the person named on it than one extracted last week (e.g. they'll ask for 3 ID documents if you don't have it but only 2 if one of them is an "original" birth certificate). Obviously they can't demand that anyone produces an issued-at-birth certificate.
Are you confusing the preference for long-version BC copy, as opposed to
> On Wednesday, July 18, 2012 10:05:02 PM UTC+1, August West wrote:
>
> > Are they? They're legally identical extracts (at least in Scotland).
>
> And elsewhere, but in practice some places will give more weight to one issued at the time of birth, given that it's rather more likely to belong to the person named on it than one extracted last week (e.g. they'll ask for 3 ID documents if you don't have it but only 2 if one of them is an "original" birth certificate). Obviously they can't demand that anyone produces an issued-at-birth certificate.
the short version copy.
Janet
Janet
Jul 19, 2012, 4:05:02 PM7/19/12
to
In article <Y1qvvHGB...@perry.co.uk>, rol...@perry.co.uk says...
Or put it another way, nobody wanted to take the rap.
Janet.
>
> In message <MPG.2a70d9e3d...@news.eternal-september.org>, at
> 15:45:05 on Wed, 18 Jul 2012, Janet <H...@invalid.net> remarked:
> >> >There are too many organisations that lose documents.
> >>
> >> And they lose copies too. A bank insisted I went into a branch with the
> >> usual ID stuff (despite me having an account with them for about 40
> >> years) in order to change my address.
> >>
> >> I thought this was bad policy, because it was only likely to delay
> >> things, and so they'd be sending stuff to my old address, incorrectly.
> >>
> >> Anyway, I did it, they took copies, then lost them. About a month later
> >> they wrote to me saying "aren't you ever going to come in and show us
> >> your ID?" Of course, they denied I'd ever been in the first time,
> >> because they had no record of it.
> >
> > Maybe you should have asked the bank person who took copies of your
> >documents, to provide evidence of their own ID and give you a photocopy.
>
> I started off the second visit by suggesting that perhaps an impostor
> had been manning their customer service desk (which are landside rather
> than airside these days) when I attended the first time, and had been
> collecting lots of financial information from customers before running
> off and using it to do various fraudulent activity.
I Like it :-)
> In message <MPG.2a70d9e3d...@news.eternal-september.org>, at
> 15:45:05 on Wed, 18 Jul 2012, Janet <H...@invalid.net> remarked:
> >> >There are too many organisations that lose documents.
> >>
> >> And they lose copies too. A bank insisted I went into a branch with the
> >> usual ID stuff (despite me having an account with them for about 40
> >> years) in order to change my address.
> >>
> >> I thought this was bad policy, because it was only likely to delay
> >> things, and so they'd be sending stuff to my old address, incorrectly.
> >>
> >> Anyway, I did it, they took copies, then lost them. About a month later
> >> they wrote to me saying "aren't you ever going to come in and show us
> >> your ID?" Of course, they denied I'd ever been in the first time,
> >> because they had no record of it.
> >
> > Maybe you should have asked the bank person who took copies of your
> >documents, to provide evidence of their own ID and give you a photocopy.
>
> I started off the second visit by suggesting that perhaps an impostor
> had been manning their customer service desk (which are landside rather
> than airside these days) when I attended the first time, and had been
> collecting lots of financial information from customers before running
> off and using it to do various fraudulent activity.
>
> That got their attention! Especially as they asked me for a description
> of the person, and they couldn't immediately match it to a genuine
> staffer).
> That got their attention! Especially as they asked me for a description
> of the person, and they couldn't immediately match it to a genuine
Or put it another way, nobody wanted to take the rap.
Janet.
Roland Perry
Jul 20, 2012, 3:40:03 AM7/20/12
to
In message <MPG.2a72789bc...@news.eternal-september.org>, at
21:05:02 on Thu, 19 Jul 2012, Janet <H...@invalid.net> remarked:
>>in practice some places will give more weight to one issued at the time of birth, given that it's rather more likely to belong to the person
>>named on it than one extracted last week (e.g. they'll ask for 3 ID documents if you don't have it but only 2 if one of them is an "original"
>>birth certificate). Obviously they can't demand that anyone produces an issued-at-birth certificate.
>
> Are you confusing the preference for long-version BC copy, as opposed to
>the short version copy.
I'm not confusing them; although I'd expect a short copy to also be less
well regarded than a long one.
--
Roland Perry
21:05:02 on Thu, 19 Jul 2012, Janet <H...@invalid.net> remarked:
>>in practice some places will give more weight to one issued at the time of birth, given that it's rather more likely to belong to the person
>>named on it than one extracted last week (e.g. they'll ask for 3 ID documents if you don't have it but only 2 if one of them is an "original"
>>birth certificate). Obviously they can't demand that anyone produces an issued-at-birth certificate.
>
> Are you confusing the preference for long-version BC copy, as opposed to
>the short version copy.
well regarded than a long one.
--
Roland Perry
Him & Her
Jul 20, 2012, 4:40:03 AM7/20/12
to
"Mark" <i...@dontgetlotsofspamanymore.invalid> wrote in message
news:drff08dm6fi01avpk...@4ax.com...
<Snip>
Thanks, Mark. I believe we can get a replacement birth
certificate
for a fee. Can we claim for incovenience and, if so, how could
this
be calculated?
You probably won't. Easily ordered online these days
certificate
for a fee. Can we claim for incovenience and, if so, how could
this
be calculated?
Standard service costs �9.25
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/most_customers_want_to_know.asp#OrderingCertificates
Start the process here.......
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/register.asp
Regards,
tim....
Jul 21, 2012, 7:10:02 AM7/21/12
to
"David McNeish" <davi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:2d4fc3fe-01df-4aa6...@q29g2000vby.googlegroups.com...
But why does "the system" ever require the individual to send it a
certificate to prove this.
It ought to be something that the company can look up for themselves on a
database
tim
Roland Perry
Jul 21, 2012, 8:55:02 AM7/21/12
to
In message <a6vgvq...@mid.individual.net>, at 12:10:02 on Sat, 21 Jul
2012, tim.... <tims_n...@yahoo.co.uk> remarked:
hate to think what would be required to prove that a random bloke 100
miles away was who he claimed to be.
--
Roland Perry
2012, tim.... <tims_n...@yahoo.co.uk> remarked:
>> Is a birth certificate really accepted as an identity document? After
>> al, they do have printed on them "WARNING: A CERTIFICATE IS NOT EVIDENCE
>> OF IDENTITY".
>
>By which (I presume) they mean "the bearer is not necessarily the
>person named on this certificate". It is however evidence that someone
>of that name exists (or existed), and what their place and date of
>birth was.
>---------------------------------------------------------
>
>But why does "the system" ever require the individual to send it a
>certificate to prove this.
>
>It ought to be something that the company can look up for themselves on a
>database
Only if we had a vastly more intrusive database than exists today. I
>> al, they do have printed on them "WARNING: A CERTIFICATE IS NOT EVIDENCE
>> OF IDENTITY".
>
>By which (I presume) they mean "the bearer is not necessarily the
>person named on this certificate". It is however evidence that someone
>of that name exists (or existed), and what their place and date of
>birth was.
>---------------------------------------------------------
>
>But why does "the system" ever require the individual to send it a
>certificate to prove this.
>
>It ought to be something that the company can look up for themselves on a
>database
hate to think what would be required to prove that a random bloke 100
miles away was who he claimed to be.
--
Roland Perry
tim....
Jul 21, 2012, 7:15:03 AM7/21/12
to
news:7ad0f8fc-1577-46d8...@b1g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
--------------------------------------------------------------
I would hazard a guess that 50% of the population can't produce their
original BC, so I don't see that its absence proves anything
I would hazard a guess that 50% of the population can't produce their
original BC, so I don't see that its absence proves anything
Roland Perry
Jul 21, 2012, 11:45:02 AM7/21/12
to
In message <a6vh3o...@mid.individual.net>, at 12:15:03 on Sat, 21 Jul
2012, tim.... <tims_n...@yahoo.co.uk> remarked:
>I would hazard a guess that 50% of the population can't produce their
>original BC, so I don't see that its absence proves anything
It's the *presence* of the original which brings more to the party.
--
Roland Perry
2012, tim.... <tims_n...@yahoo.co.uk> remarked:
>I would hazard a guess that 50% of the population can't produce their
>original BC, so I don't see that its absence proves anything
--
Roland Perry
tim.....
Jul 22, 2012, 7:40:10 AM7/22/12
to
"Roland Perry" wrote in message news:CDAJCtCm...@perry.co.uk...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not suggesting that this database do that.
All I am suggesting is that BDM data is searchable for identity purposes in
order to stop perpetuating this myth that Birth Certificates are somehow a
useful proof of identity
tim
I'm not suggesting that this database do that.
All I am suggesting is that BDM data is searchable for identity purposes in
order to stop perpetuating this myth that Birth Certificates are somehow a
useful proof of identity
tim
Roland Perry
Jul 22, 2012, 8:15:01 AM7/22/12
to
In message <a72716...@mid.individual.net>, at 12:40:10 on Sun, 22 Jul
2012, tim..... <tims_n...@yahoo.co.uk> remarked:
Note also that not everyone wanting to prove their identity was born in
the UK.
--
Roland Perry
2012, tim..... <tims_n...@yahoo.co.uk> remarked:
>All I am suggesting is that BDM data is searchable for identity
>purposes in order to stop perpetuating this myth that Birth
>Certificates are somehow a useful proof of identity
It's not a myth, especially if you have the one originally issued.
>purposes in order to stop perpetuating this myth that Birth
>Certificates are somehow a useful proof of identity
Note also that not everyone wanting to prove their identity was born in
the UK.
--
Roland Perry
Big Les Wade
Jul 25, 2012, 5:50:03 AM7/25/12
to
Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> posted
>In message <a6ndpd...@mid.individual.net>, at 10:30:03 on Wed, 18
>Jul 2012, Iain <sp...@smaps.net> remarked:
impostor who knows X's bank account details and current address goes to
X's branch claiming to be X and notifies them of a change of address.
The bank accepts this at face value and changes its records so that all
future X correspondence goes to X's new address. The impostor then tries
to set up Internet banking on X's account. If it's not set up already,
the bank will create login details and password and send them to the new
address. The impostor can then raid X's account.
Exactly this was done to me a few years ago. The fact that I'd had an
account there for donkeys' years was no protection, because the counter
staff do not know me by sight. The only effective protection against the
fraud would have been the bank requiring to see identification before
changing the address linked to the account. They do this now; they
didn't then.
>Anyway, I did it, they took copies, then lost them. About a month later
>they wrote to me saying "aren't you ever going to come in and show us
>your ID?" Of course, they denied I'd ever been in the first time,
>because they had no record of it.
Of course, if the bank's as useless as this, all bets are off :)
--
Les
>In message <a6ndpd...@mid.individual.net>, at 10:30:03 on Wed, 18
>Jul 2012, Iain <sp...@smaps.net> remarked:
>>There are too many organisations that lose documents.
>
>And they lose copies too. A bank insisted I went into a branch with the
>usual ID stuff (despite me having an account with them for about 40
>years) in order to change my address.
>
>I thought this was bad policy, because it was only likely to delay
>things, and so they'd be sending stuff to my old address, incorrectly.
The reason they do this is because of the following fraud MO. An
>
>And they lose copies too. A bank insisted I went into a branch with the
>usual ID stuff (despite me having an account with them for about 40
>years) in order to change my address.
>
>I thought this was bad policy, because it was only likely to delay
>things, and so they'd be sending stuff to my old address, incorrectly.
impostor who knows X's bank account details and current address goes to
X's branch claiming to be X and notifies them of a change of address.
The bank accepts this at face value and changes its records so that all
future X correspondence goes to X's new address. The impostor then tries
to set up Internet banking on X's account. If it's not set up already,
the bank will create login details and password and send them to the new
address. The impostor can then raid X's account.
Exactly this was done to me a few years ago. The fact that I'd had an
account there for donkeys' years was no protection, because the counter
staff do not know me by sight. The only effective protection against the
fraud would have been the bank requiring to see identification before
changing the address linked to the account. They do this now; they
didn't then.
>Anyway, I did it, they took copies, then lost them. About a month later
>they wrote to me saying "aren't you ever going to come in and show us
>your ID?" Of course, they denied I'd ever been in the first time,
>because they had no record of it.
--
Les
Roland Perry
Jul 25, 2012, 7:50:02 AM7/25/12
to
In message <SF7EZOFm...@obviously.invalid>, at 10:50:03 on Wed, 25
Jul 2012, Big Les Wade <L...@nowhere.com> remarked:
(surprisingly enough).
--
Roland Perry
Jul 2012, Big Les Wade <L...@nowhere.com> remarked:
>>>There are too many organisations that lose documents.
>>
>>And they lose copies too. A bank insisted I went into a branch with
>>the usual ID stuff (despite me having an account with them for about
>>40 years) in order to change my address.
>>
>>I thought this was bad policy, because it was only likely to delay
>>things, and so they'd be sending stuff to my old address, incorrectly.
>
>The reason they do this is because of the following fraud MO. An
>impostor who knows X's bank account details and current address goes
>to X's branch claiming to be X and notifies them of a change of
>address. The bank accepts this at face value and changes its records so
>that all future X correspondence goes to X's new address.
I wrote to them and signed the letter. They have my signature on file
>>
>>And they lose copies too. A bank insisted I went into a branch with
>>the usual ID stuff (despite me having an account with them for about
>>40 years) in order to change my address.
>>
>>I thought this was bad policy, because it was only likely to delay
>>things, and so they'd be sending stuff to my old address, incorrectly.
>
>The reason they do this is because of the following fraud MO. An
>impostor who knows X's bank account details and current address goes
>to X's branch claiming to be X and notifies them of a change of
>address. The bank accepts this at face value and changes its records so
>that all future X correspondence goes to X's new address.
(surprisingly enough).
--
Roland Perry
Mark
Jul 25, 2012, 8:45:02 AM7/25/12
to
On Wed, 25 Jul 2012 12:50:02 +0100, Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk>
wrote:
I guess a signature is not that difficult to forge so that the average
person can't tell the difference.
wrote:
person can't tell the difference.
Adam Funk
Jul 25, 2012, 9:50:03 AM7/25/12
to
than they (reputedly) verify them on cheques!
Stephen Wolstenholme
Jul 25, 2012, 11:25:02 AM7/25/12
to
On Wed, 25 Jul 2012 14:50:03 +0100, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com>
wrote:
Don't count on it. Years ago I worked on a signature recognition
project and used my own fake signatures to test it. I won't mention
the name of the bank!
Steve
--
Neural Network Software. http://www.npsl1.com
EasyNN-plus. Neural Networks plus. http://www.easynn.com
SwingNN. Forecast with Neural Networks. http://www.swingnn.com
JustNN. Just Neural Networks. http://www.justnn.com
wrote:
project and used my own fake signatures to test it. I won't mention
the name of the bank!
Steve
--
Neural Network Software. http://www.npsl1.com
EasyNN-plus. Neural Networks plus. http://www.easynn.com
SwingNN. Forecast with Neural Networks. http://www.swingnn.com
JustNN. Just Neural Networks. http://www.justnn.com
Roland Perry
Jul 25, 2012, 2:35:02 PM7/25/12
to
In message <6tpv08lpe4ol6sfgm...@4ax.com>, at 13:45:02 on
Wed, 25 Jul 2012, Mark <i...@dontgetlotsofspamanymore.invalid> remarked:
--
Roland Perry
Wed, 25 Jul 2012, Mark <i...@dontgetlotsofspamanymore.invalid> remarked:
>>I wrote to them and signed the letter. They have my signature on file
>>(surprisingly enough).
>
>I guess a signature is not that difficult to forge so that the average
>person can't tell the difference.
Instant collapse of the entire contract and cheque system.
>>(surprisingly enough).
>
>I guess a signature is not that difficult to forge so that the average
>person can't tell the difference.
--
Roland Perry
Message has been deleted
Roland Perry
Jul 25, 2012, 4:25:02 PM7/25/12
to
In message <87y5m71...@news2.kororaa.com>, at 19:55:02 on Wed, 25
Jul 2012, August West <aug...@kororaa.com> remarked:
>parties.
So why sign them?
--
Roland Perry
Jul 2012, August West <aug...@kororaa.com> remarked:
>>>>I wrote to them and signed the letter. They have my signature on file
>>>>(surprisingly enough).
>>>
>>>I guess a signature is not that difficult to forge so that the average
>>>person can't tell the difference.
>>
>> Instant collapse of the entire contract and cheque system.
>
>Contract disputes aren't often over the identies of the contracting
>>>>(surprisingly enough).
>>>
>>>I guess a signature is not that difficult to forge so that the average
>>>person can't tell the difference.
>>
>> Instant collapse of the entire contract and cheque system.
>
>parties.
So why sign them?
--
Roland Perry
Message has been deleted
Alex Heney
Jul 25, 2012, 6:25:02 PM7/25/12
to
On Wed, 25 Jul 2012 19:35:02 +0100, Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk>
wrote:
Why?
It has always been the case that forging of signatures was one of the
more common ways of obtaining money fraudulently.
It is one of the main reasons why cards moved from signature based
verification to chip and pin.
This fact hasn't caused instant collapse of the entire contract and
cheque system (although cheques are very much on the way out, with
more places now refusing to accept them than are taking them).
--
Alex Heney, Global Villager
It's Ensign Flintstone, Jim... He's Fred!
To reply by email, my address is alexDOTheneyATgmailDOTcom
wrote:
It has always been the case that forging of signatures was one of the
more common ways of obtaining money fraudulently.
It is one of the main reasons why cards moved from signature based
verification to chip and pin.
This fact hasn't caused instant collapse of the entire contract and
cheque system (although cheques are very much on the way out, with
more places now refusing to accept them than are taking them).
--
Alex Heney, Global Villager
It's Ensign Flintstone, Jim... He's Fred!
To reply by email, my address is alexDOTheneyATgmailDOTcom
Neil Williams
Jul 26, 2012, 2:05:02 AM7/26/12
to
Alex Heney <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> It has always been the case that forging of signatures was one of the
> more common ways of obtaining money fraudulently.
There is of course an element of security by obscurity in that to fake a
> It has always been the case that forging of signatures was one of the
> more common ways of obtaining money fraudulently.
signature effectively, you need to have seen it.
Neil
--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK. Put first name before the at to reply.
Jethro_uk
Jul 26, 2012, 5:55:02 AM7/26/12
to
On Thu, 26 Jul 2012 07:05:02 +0100, Neil Williams wrote:
> Alex Heney <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>> It has always been the case that forging of signatures was one of the
>> more common ways of obtaining money fraudulently.
>
> There is of course an element of security by obscurity in that to fake a
> signature effectively, you need to have seen it.
>
> Neil
It always struck me as slightly weird that banks issued thieves with a
> Alex Heney <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>> It has always been the case that forging of signatures was one of the
>> more common ways of obtaining money fraudulently.
>
> There is of course an element of security by obscurity in that to fake a
> signature effectively, you need to have seen it.
>
> Neil
nice piece of plastic with a sample of the account holders signature, for
the fraudster to practice with, before writing a cheque.
Mark
Jul 26, 2012, 9:25:04 AM7/26/12
to
duty to look after it. If the cheque guarantee guard did not have a
specimen signature then it would be difficult for, say, a shop
employee to check that the sig is genuine.
Big Les Wade
Jul 26, 2012, 10:30:03 AM7/26/12
to
Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> posted
You'd think this would do them, but for some reason banks don't like
signatures as an authentication device. Not long ago I went to my bank
and paid some bills with cheques across the counter. The teller asked me
to produce some form of identification, since the payments were quite
large. I pointed to the signatures on the cheque: "You have my signature
on file here, you can compare it with those". The reply was, of course,
"Sorry sir we're not allowed to do that" Not allowed? By whom? Why?
No good arguing of course. Had to produce ID. Which wasn't difficult,
just silly; all I'm doing is handing in some cheques If I'd simply
posted them to the bank, or asked my wife to call in and pay them in,
they'd have processed them without seeing any ID.
--
Les
signatures as an authentication device. Not long ago I went to my bank
and paid some bills with cheques across the counter. The teller asked me
to produce some form of identification, since the payments were quite
large. I pointed to the signatures on the cheque: "You have my signature
on file here, you can compare it with those". The reply was, of course,
"Sorry sir we're not allowed to do that" Not allowed? By whom? Why?
No good arguing of course. Had to produce ID. Which wasn't difficult,
just silly; all I'm doing is handing in some cheques If I'd simply
posted them to the bank, or asked my wife to call in and pay them in,
they'd have processed them without seeing any ID.
--
Les
Sara
Jul 26, 2012, 11:00:04 AM7/26/12
to
In article <IoWSClLO...@obviously.invalid>,
A bank tried to refuse to accept my passport of proof of ID once.
--
Sara
Peeps squeaks, Billy is silly and as for Armageddon...
--
Sara
Peeps squeaks, Billy is silly and as for Armageddon...
Jethro_uk
Jul 27, 2012, 6:05:03 AM7/27/12
to
On Thu, 26 Jul 2012 14:25:04 +0100, Mark wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Jul 2012 10:55:02 +0100, Jethro_uk <jeth...@hotmailbin.com>
> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 26 Jul 2012 07:05:02 +0100, Neil Williams wrote:
>>
>>> Alex Heney <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> It has always been the case that forging of signatures was one of the
>>>> more common ways of obtaining money fraudulently.
>>>
>>> There is of course an element of security by obscurity in that to fake
>>> a signature effectively, you need to have seen it.
>>>
>>> Neil
>>
>>It always struck me as slightly weird that banks issued thieves with a
>>nice piece of plastic with a sample of the account holders signature,
>>for the fraudster to practice with, before writing a cheque.
>
> Iff the fraudster gets hold of the card. The customer does have a duty
> to look after it. If the cheque guarantee guard did not have a specimen
> signature then it would be difficult for, say, a shop employee to check
> that the sig is genuine.
I know there were dire warnings from the banks to keep card and book
> On Thu, 26 Jul 2012 10:55:02 +0100, Jethro_uk <jeth...@hotmailbin.com>
> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 26 Jul 2012 07:05:02 +0100, Neil Williams wrote:
>>
>>> Alex Heney <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> It has always been the case that forging of signatures was one of the
>>>> more common ways of obtaining money fraudulently.
>>>
>>> There is of course an element of security by obscurity in that to fake
>>> a signature effectively, you need to have seen it.
>>>
>>> Neil
>>
>>It always struck me as slightly weird that banks issued thieves with a
>>nice piece of plastic with a sample of the account holders signature,
>>for the fraudster to practice with, before writing a cheque.
>
> Iff the fraudster gets hold of the card. The customer does have a duty
> to look after it. If the cheque guarantee guard did not have a specimen
> signature then it would be difficult for, say, a shop employee to check
> that the sig is genuine.
separate. However a lot of women tended to keep everything in their
handbag.
When I worked at Sainsburys, in the early 80s, we used to have a monthly
parade of shame for the cashiers (probably wouldn't be allowed now ?). I
was taken aback in my first month to hear that 25 cheques had been
accepted with *no* signature. Although not far behind were the number of
cheques with mismatched numbers/words leaving cheques with no amount in
last place.
From what I have since learned about banks, they could have corrected all
those mistakes in house, presented the cheques and got paid. But they
didn't.
Jethro_uk
Jul 27, 2012, 6:15:03 AM7/27/12
to
to ID ... one is proving that the person in question (?) is indeed a
person in life, for want of a better expression. The second is proving
that the person in question has an address, so can be contacted in
future. A passport is OK for the former, but no use for the latter.
This is why most requests for ID are *two* forms. Photo ID, and something
with your address on it. Although a driving license can be used as both,
I notice it's still common to ask for a recent bill at that address.
Serena Blanchflower
Jul 27, 2012, 9:05:02 AM7/27/12
to
matched the name on the cheque so, as long as the signature matched
the signature on the card, the two could be in different names and
different account numbers. I don't know if this was often used by
fraudsters but I do know that, when my then parents in law were sent a
cheque book for then husband's and my account, no one noticed the
discrepancy and mil wrote several cheques on our account.
When she noticed what had happened, she realised that the cashiers had
always had either the cheque face up and the card face down (to
compare signatures) or the other way around (to copy the number onto
the cheque). They never had both face up, to confirm that the account
names and numbers matched.
It's also worth commenting that the bank (which shall remain nameless)
seemed supremely uninterested in what had happened and told us to just
sort the money out between ourselves. Luckily, this hadn't sent us
overdrawn and we were able to do this quite easily but I got the
feeling we might have had to push quite hard to get the bank to sort
things out if this hadn't been the case.
--
Cheers, Serena
Smile, breathe and go slowly (Thich Nhat Hanh)
Robin Bignall
Jul 27, 2012, 4:40:02 PM7/27/12
to
On Fri, 27 Jul 2012 11:15:03 +0100, Jethro_uk <jeth...@hotmailbin.com>
wrote:
That doesn't work anymore. Paperless billing has been around for years
and most companies offer some incentive for using it.
--
Robin Bignall
Herts, England
wrote:
and most companies offer some incentive for using it.
--
Robin Bignall
Herts, England
Roland Perry
Jul 28, 2012, 1:55:02 AM7/28/12
to
In message <o1v518pu0ptsk1gf6...@4ax.com>, at 21:40:02 on
Fri, 27 Jul 2012, Robin Bignall <docr...@ntlworld.com> remarked:
>>most requests for ID are *two* forms. Photo ID, and something
>>with your address on it. Although a driving license can be used as both,
>>I notice it's still common to ask for a recent bill at that address.
>
>That doesn't work anymore.
It may not "work" but organisations still ask for it. Although a Council
Tax bill seems to be a useful option for householders (still on paper,
looks quite official, probably counts as "less than X months old" for
the whole year, etc).
>Paperless billing has been around for years and most companies offer
>some incentive for using it.
And many which don't offer an incentive (like a discount) are trying to
force customers onto it anyway.
But their offering is quite likely to be sub-optimal for various
reasons. A couple of examples:
One financial institution deletes all statements after six months, and
charges £10 a copy if you forgot to print them out (ie they are
externalising the cost of printing and paper to the customer) or if you
are trying to save paper and simply need to refer to something older
than six months. They also have a "secure messaging" feature and have
just decided to delete all correspondence over three months old "so that
you always have up to date information" - or as I see it "you've lost
yet another audit trail".
A credit card company has simply said "this is the last paper statement
you'll get", although if you enrol online you can switch back to paper
billing. With a fairly typical username/password login to start with, it
turns out that the third time you use it they say "right, now we need to
make your login more secure", and ask for several (relatively weak if
you answer honestly) shared secrets and one of those "is this the
picture you thought we should be showing you" thing, which adds two
extra steps of both memorisation and keyboarding to access the account.
Until they've sorted all this kind of thing out, online is less
efficient and more time consuming than paper. And my paper bills don't
have downtime next Sunday evening for system maintenance, either.
--
Roland Perry
Fri, 27 Jul 2012, Robin Bignall <docr...@ntlworld.com> remarked:
>>most requests for ID are *two* forms. Photo ID, and something
>>with your address on it. Although a driving license can be used as both,
>>I notice it's still common to ask for a recent bill at that address.
>
>That doesn't work anymore.
Tax bill seems to be a useful option for householders (still on paper,
looks quite official, probably counts as "less than X months old" for
the whole year, etc).
>Paperless billing has been around for years and most companies offer
>some incentive for using it.
force customers onto it anyway.
But their offering is quite likely to be sub-optimal for various
reasons. A couple of examples:
One financial institution deletes all statements after six months, and
charges £10 a copy if you forgot to print them out (ie they are
externalising the cost of printing and paper to the customer) or if you
are trying to save paper and simply need to refer to something older
than six months. They also have a "secure messaging" feature and have
just decided to delete all correspondence over three months old "so that
you always have up to date information" - or as I see it "you've lost
yet another audit trail".
A credit card company has simply said "this is the last paper statement
you'll get", although if you enrol online you can switch back to paper
billing. With a fairly typical username/password login to start with, it
turns out that the third time you use it they say "right, now we need to
make your login more secure", and ask for several (relatively weak if
you answer honestly) shared secrets and one of those "is this the
picture you thought we should be showing you" thing, which adds two
extra steps of both memorisation and keyboarding to access the account.
Until they've sorted all this kind of thing out, online is less
efficient and more time consuming than paper. And my paper bills don't
have downtime next Sunday evening for system maintenance, either.
--
Roland Perry
Jethro_uk
Jul 27, 2012, 8:15:02 PM7/27/12
to
use it.
Stephen Wolstenholme
Jul 28, 2012, 6:00:06 AM7/28/12
to
On Fri, 27 Jul 2012 21:40:02 +0100, Robin Bignall
was going through the process of providing ID I used a photocopy of a
very old bill and a screen print from a paperless bank account. For
the photo ID I used a photocopy of a passport that expired in 1996. It
was all accepted.
Roland Perry
Jul 28, 2012, 8:15:03 AM7/28/12
to
In message <n2d7189bpasn3cojn...@4ax.com>, at 11:00:06 on
Sat, 28 Jul 2012, Stephen Wolstenholme <st...@npsl1.com> remarked:
tried recently.
--
Roland Perry
Sat, 28 Jul 2012, Stephen Wolstenholme <st...@npsl1.com> remarked:
>I have been using paperless billing for a long time. The last time I
>was going through the process of providing ID I used a photocopy of a
>very old bill and a screen print from a paperless bank account. For
>the photo ID I used a photocopy of a passport that expired in 1996. It
>was all accepted.
Who by - that wouldn't even get past first base at most places I've
>was going through the process of providing ID I used a photocopy of a
>very old bill and a screen print from a paperless bank account. For
>the photo ID I used a photocopy of a passport that expired in 1996. It
>was all accepted.
tried recently.
--
Roland Perry
Message has been deleted
Roland Perry
Jul 28, 2012, 9:55:02 AM7/28/12
to
In message <87wr1oy...@news2.kororaa.com>, at 13:35:02 on Sat, 28
Jul 2012, August West <aug...@kororaa.com> remarked:
>degree? I can't recall when I last had to do so. Possible when I changed
>banks, a dozen or more years ago.
Most of it is about moving house - which I do on average every couple of
years. But I suspect that opening a new bank account would be equally
challenging.
--
Roland Perry
Jul 2012, August West <aug...@kororaa.com> remarked:
>>>I have been using paperless billing for a long time. The last time I
>>>was going through the process of providing ID I used a photocopy of a
>>>very old bill and a screen print from a paperless bank account. For
>>>the photo ID I used a photocopy of a passport that expired in 1996. It
>>>was all accepted.
>>
>> Who by - that wouldn't even get past first base at most places I've
>> tried recently.
>
>How often, and why, do you regularly have to prove your identity to that
>>>was going through the process of providing ID I used a photocopy of a
>>>very old bill and a screen print from a paperless bank account. For
>>>the photo ID I used a photocopy of a passport that expired in 1996. It
>>>was all accepted.
>>
>> Who by - that wouldn't even get past first base at most places I've
>> tried recently.
>
>degree? I can't recall when I last had to do so. Possible when I changed
>banks, a dozen or more years ago.
Most of it is about moving house - which I do on average every couple of
years. But I suspect that opening a new bank account would be equally
challenging.
--
Roland Perry
Stephen Wolstenholme
Jul 28, 2012, 10:40:03 AM7/28/12
to
On Sat, 28 Jul 2012 13:15:03 +0100, Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk>
wrote:
The last time it was for my solicitor arranging a house move. Before
that it was opening a new bank account. Photocopies of old documents
had to be accepted because I have not got any current ones on paper. I
assume requirements are changing has more people use paperless
methods. The only problem I have had recently was moving a large
amount of money without paper. I had to write a cheque!
wrote:
that it was opening a new bank account. Photocopies of old documents
had to be accepted because I have not got any current ones on paper. I
assume requirements are changing has more people use paperless
methods. The only problem I have had recently was moving a large
amount of money without paper. I had to write a cheque!
Roland Perry
Jul 28, 2012, 12:35:02 PM7/28/12
to
In message <49t718pd11sel8uj9...@4ax.com>, at 15:40:03 on
cash or an electronic transfer, all he was interested in was a cheque.
--
Roland Perry
Sat, 28 Jul 2012, Stephen Wolstenholme <st...@npsl1.com> remarked:
>The only problem I have had recently was moving a large
>amount of money without paper. I had to write a cheque!
The biggest bill I've had the last year, the tradesman wouldn't take
>amount of money without paper. I had to write a cheque!
cash or an electronic transfer, all he was interested in was a cheque.
--
Roland Perry
steve robinson
Jul 28, 2012, 1:05:02 PM7/28/12
to
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
Stephen Wolstenholme
Jul 28, 2012, 1:35:02 PM7/28/12
to
use. I don't get to that level very often but I am currently way over
it with buying a house so I am using cheques.
Roland Perry
Jul 28, 2012, 2:10:02 PM7/28/12
to
In message <87hasrz...@news2.kororaa.com>, at 18:50:02 on Sat, 28
Jul 2012, August West <aug...@kororaa.com> remarked:
>> In the past 2 years I've had to do it three times to three different
>> organisations employed by me to conduct financial transactions.
>>
>> Every one of them said it's required procedure to combat money-
>> laundering.
>
>I'm suppose that I'm lucky, then, to have long-standing relationships
>with those who handle my momney, and legal affairs.
Ha! The one I recounted a few days ago (who lost my ID in-branch) I have
had a relationship with (ie an account at their famous bank) for
something over 40 years.
--
Roland Perry
Jul 2012, August West <aug...@kororaa.com> remarked:
>> In the past 2 years I've had to do it three times to three different
>> organisations employed by me to conduct financial transactions.
>>
>> Every one of them said it's required procedure to combat money-
>> laundering.
>
>I'm suppose that I'm lucky, then, to have long-standing relationships
>with those who handle my momney, and legal affairs.
Ha! The one I recounted a few days ago (who lost my ID in-branch) I have
had a relationship with (ie an account at their famous bank) for
something over 40 years.
--
Roland Perry
Ophelia
Jul 28, 2012, 2:35:02 PM7/28/12
to
"August West" <aug...@kororaa.com> wrote in message
news:87hasrz...@news2.kororaa.com...
.
>
> I'm suppose that I'm lucky, then, to have long-standing relationships
> with those who handle my momney, and legal affairs.
Earlier this year, we had our solicitor undertake some personal work for me
>
> I'm suppose that I'm lucky, then, to have long-standing relationships
> with those who handle my momney, and legal affairs.
as well as
transferring title to some of our property. Not once did she ask for ID.
As with you, we do have a long standing relationship with her.
--
--
http://www.shop.helpforheroes.org.uk/
Roland Perry
Jul 28, 2012, 3:05:02 PM7/28/12
to
In message <jv1ba2$rdh$1...@dont-email.me>, at 19:35:02 on Sat, 28 Jul
2012, Ophelia <Oph...@elsinore.me.uk> remarked:
in the last ten years are quite onerous for the honest middle classes.
--
Roland Perry
2012, Ophelia <Oph...@elsinore.me.uk> remarked:
>> I'm suppose that I'm lucky, then, to have long-standing relationships
>> with those who handle my momney, and legal affairs.
>
>Earlier this year, we had our solicitor undertake some personal work
>for me as well as transferring title to some of our property. Not once
>did she ask for ID.
>
>As with you, we do have a long standing relationship with her.
They are supposed to jump through the hoops, the money laundering regs
>> with those who handle my momney, and legal affairs.
>
>Earlier this year, we had our solicitor undertake some personal work
>for me as well as transferring title to some of our property. Not once
>did she ask for ID.
>
>As with you, we do have a long standing relationship with her.
in the last ten years are quite onerous for the honest middle classes.
--
Roland Perry
Message has been deleted
Ophelia
Jul 28, 2012, 3:40:02 PM7/28/12
to
"Roland Perry" <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote in message
news:XOWchITg...@perry.co.uk...
certainly have never had any problems.
--
--
http://www.shop.helpforheroes.org.uk/
Adam Funk
Jul 28, 2012, 3:50:03 PM7/28/12
to
Roland Perry
Jul 28, 2012, 2:25:05 PM7/28/12
to
In message <oa8818d4mj7tcsp43...@4ax.com>, at 18:35:02 on
(in a chain) last year was that they could only send the deposit to
their solicitor at £10k (or maybe a smaller amount) per day [having
failed to send it earlier by any means].
This was a trifle strained as their business premises was literally
across the road from both my bank and my solicitor, and my buyers'
weren't more than a mile away.
--
Roland Perry
Sat, 28 Jul 2012, Stephen Wolstenholme <st...@npsl1.com> remarked:
>>I prefer electronic transfer dont like cash costs to pay in
>
>Electronic transfers are limited to £10,000 a day on all the account I
>use. I don't get to that level very often but I am currently way over
>it with buying a house so I am using cheques.
One of the excuses for delay used by the person buying my buyer's house
>
>Electronic transfers are limited to £10,000 a day on all the account I
>use. I don't get to that level very often but I am currently way over
>it with buying a house so I am using cheques.
(in a chain) last year was that they could only send the deposit to
their solicitor at £10k (or maybe a smaller amount) per day [having
failed to send it earlier by any means].
This was a trifle strained as their business premises was literally
across the road from both my bank and my solicitor, and my buyers'
weren't more than a mile away.
--
Roland Perry
Robin Bignall
Jul 28, 2012, 4:45:02 PM7/28/12
to
On Sat, 28 Jul 2012 20:50:03 +0100, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com>
wrote:
Yes it does, when it's the only paper available. We were on the brink
of buying a house recently, and got there with just colour photocopies
of documents, and such printouts. But we backed out when we realised
that it'd cost nearly 30 grand in stamp duties. That sort of money
invested in an orangery for our current house seems more sensible.
But we did learn that since all of the bills are in my name and my wife
cannot drive, she appears to have no official document to prove where
she lives.
wrote:
of buying a house recently, and got there with just colour photocopies
of documents, and such printouts. But we backed out when we realised
that it'd cost nearly 30 grand in stamp duties. That sort of money
invested in an orangery for our current house seems more sensible.
But we did learn that since all of the bills are in my name and my wife
cannot drive, she appears to have no official document to prove where
she lives.
Humbug
Jul 28, 2012, 7:15:03 PM7/28/12
to
On Thu, 26 Jul 2012 15:30:03 +0100, Big Les Wade <L...@nowhere.com>
I'm one of the 10% of the population who normally use their second
name in preference to the first [1].
Once I went into my local bank branch to pay in a cheque made payable
to me using my second name and surname.
The cashier would not accept it because my account name is my first
two initials and surname ...
She insisted that I should endorse the cheque on the back with my
signature.
Then she accepted the cheque with no further checks (sic).
[1] e.g. Alexander Johnson, a well-known mayor, James Brown, a fairly
well-known ex-Prime Minister, Helen Potter, the author of Peter Rabbit
and other stories, and Thomas Connery, the first actor to play James
[2] Bond.
[2] There is a rumour that Bond's first name was Gregory, but this is
not substantiated.
--
Everton
name in preference to the first [1].
Once I went into my local bank branch to pay in a cheque made payable
to me using my second name and surname.
The cashier would not accept it because my account name is my first
two initials and surname ...
She insisted that I should endorse the cheque on the back with my
signature.
Then she accepted the cheque with no further checks (sic).
[1] e.g. Alexander Johnson, a well-known mayor, James Brown, a fairly
well-known ex-Prime Minister, Helen Potter, the author of Peter Rabbit
and other stories, and Thomas Connery, the first actor to play James
[2] Bond.
[2] There is a rumour that Bond's first name was Gregory, but this is
not substantiated.
--
Everton
Humbug
Jul 28, 2012, 7:25:02 PM7/28/12
to
On Sat, 28 Jul 2012 13:35:02 +0100, August West <aug...@kororaa.com>
wrote:
I turned up to collect a pre-booked car with my driving licence,
passport and a letter from my car insurance company.
They turned me away because I did not have a bank statement or utility
bill.
--
Humbug
wrote:
>How often, and why, do you regularly have to prove your identity to that
>degree? I can't recall when I last had to do so. Possible when I changed
>banks, a dozen or more years ago.
Enterprise Car Rentals.
>degree? I can't recall when I last had to do so. Possible when I changed
>banks, a dozen or more years ago.
I turned up to collect a pre-booked car with my driving licence,
passport and a letter from my car insurance company.
They turned me away because I did not have a bank statement or utility
bill.
--
Humbug
Humbug
Jul 28, 2012, 7:40:01 PM7/28/12
to
He's never had one.
He lives with his father, so has no utility bills or council tax in
his name.
He doesn't have a passport.
The only document he has which could prove his identity or address is
his driving licence, and that can be used for either, but *not* both.
--
Humbug
Roland Perry
Jul 29, 2012, 1:45:03 AM7/29/12
to
In message <g8j8181t0bd2ee6rj...@4ax.com>, at 21:45:02 on
Sat, 28 Jul 2012, Robin Bignall <docr...@ntlworld.com> remarked:
>Yes it does, when it's the only paper available. We were on the brink
>of buying a house recently, and got there with just colour photocopies
>of documents, and such printouts. But we backed out when we realised
>that it'd cost nearly 30 grand in stamp duties. That sort of money
>invested in an orangery for our current house seems more sensible.
>
>But we did learn that since all of the bills are in my name and my wife
>cannot drive, she appears to have no official document to prove where
>she lives.
Statement from a joint bank account?
--
Roland Perry
Sat, 28 Jul 2012, Robin Bignall <docr...@ntlworld.com> remarked:
>>>>This is why most requests for ID are *two* forms. Photo ID, and something
>>>>with your address on it. Although a driving license can be used as both,
>>>>I notice it's still common to ask for a recent bill at that address.
>>>
>>> That doesn't work anymore. Paperless billing has been around for years
>>> and most companies offer some incentive for using it.
>>
>>Quite often a printed PDF of a utility bill works.
Although some requestors specifically exclude self-printed bills.
>>>>with your address on it. Although a driving license can be used as both,
>>>>I notice it's still common to ask for a recent bill at that address.
>>>
>>> That doesn't work anymore. Paperless billing has been around for years
>>> and most companies offer some incentive for using it.
>>
>>Quite often a printed PDF of a utility bill works.
>Yes it does, when it's the only paper available. We were on the brink
>of buying a house recently, and got there with just colour photocopies
>of documents, and such printouts. But we backed out when we realised
>that it'd cost nearly 30 grand in stamp duties. That sort of money
>invested in an orangery for our current house seems more sensible.
>
>But we did learn that since all of the bills are in my name and my wife
>cannot drive, she appears to have no official document to prove where
>she lives.
--
Roland Perry
steve robinson
Jul 29, 2012, 2:20:02 AM7/29/12
to
Stephen Wolstenholme wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Jul 2012 18:05:02 +0100, "steve robinson"
> <st...@colevalleyinteriors.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Roland Perry wrote:
> >
> >> In message <49t718pd11sel8uj9...@4ax.com>, at
> 15:40:03 >> on Sat, 28 Jul 2012, Stephen Wolstenholme
> <st...@npsl1.com> remarked: >> > The only problem I have had
> recently was moving a large >> > amount of money without paper. I had
> to write a cheque! >>
> >> The biggest bill I've had the last year, the tradesman wouldn't
> take >> cash or an electronic transfer, all he was interested in was
> a cheque.
> >
> > I prefer electronic transfer dont like cash costs to pay in
>
> Electronic transfers are limited to £10,000 a day on all the account I
> use. I don't get to that level very often but I am currently way over
> it with buying a house so I am using cheques.
>
> Steve
If you contact the bank they will still transfer higher sums, i
> On Sat, 28 Jul 2012 18:05:02 +0100, "steve robinson"
> <st...@colevalleyinteriors.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Roland Perry wrote:
> >
> >> In message <49t718pd11sel8uj9...@4ax.com>, at
> 15:40:03 >> on Sat, 28 Jul 2012, Stephen Wolstenholme
> <st...@npsl1.com> remarked: >> > The only problem I have had
> recently was moving a large >> > amount of money without paper. I had
> to write a cheque! >>
> >> The biggest bill I've had the last year, the tradesman wouldn't
> take >> cash or an electronic transfer, all he was interested in was
> a cheque.
> >
> > I prefer electronic transfer dont like cash costs to pay in
>
> Electronic transfers are limited to £10,000 a day on all the account I
> use. I don't get to that level very often but I am currently way over
> it with buying a house so I am using cheques.
>
> Steve
transfered 100K last year with a phone call (same issue buying a house)
We offered the solicitor cash and she almost choked :)
steve robinson
Jul 29, 2012, 2:25:02 AM7/29/12
to
Janet wrote:
> In article <87wr1oy...@news2.kororaa.com>, aug...@kororaa.com
> says...
Its just a but covering exercise, we ticked the boxes etc etc
> In article <87wr1oy...@news2.kororaa.com>, aug...@kororaa.com
> says...
> >
> > The entity calling itself Roland Perry wrote:
> > >
> > The entity calling itself Roland Perry wrote:
> > >
> > How often, and why, do you regularly have to prove your identity to
> > that degree?
>
> > that degree?
>
> In the past 2 years I've had to do it three times to three
> different organisations employed by me to conduct financial
> transactions.
>
> Every one of them said it's required procedure to combat money-
> laundering.
>
> Janet.
> different organisations employed by me to conduct financial
> transactions.
>
> Every one of them said it's required procedure to combat money-
> laundering.
>
Its just a but covering exercise, we ticked the boxes etc etc
steve robinson
Jul 29, 2012, 2:30:02 AM7/29/12
to
Janet wrote:
> In article <87hasrz...@news2.kororaa.com>, aug...@kororaa.com
> let me open a different account with them.
>
> Janet
A lot depends on the branch manager and how he/she implements the banks
policies. Some are jobs-worths others have a more common sense approach
> In article <87hasrz...@news2.kororaa.com>, aug...@kororaa.com
> says...
> >
> > The entity calling itself Janet wrote:
> > >
> > > In article <87wr1oy...@news2.kororaa.com>, aug...@kororaa.com
> > > says...
> > >>
> > >> The entity calling itself Roland Perry wrote:
> > >> >
> >
> > The entity calling itself Janet wrote:
> > >
> > > In article <87wr1oy...@news2.kororaa.com>, aug...@kororaa.com
> > > says...
> > >>
> > >> The entity calling itself Roland Perry wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> How often, and why, do you regularly have to prove your identity
> > to that >> degree?
> > >
> > > In the past 2 years I've had to do it three times to three
> > > different organisations employed by me to conduct financial
> > > transactions.
> > >
> > > Every one of them said it's required procedure to combat money-
> > > laundering.
> >
> > to that >> degree?
> > >
> > > In the past 2 years I've had to do it three times to three
> > > different organisations employed by me to conduct financial
> > > transactions.
> > >
> > > Every one of them said it's required procedure to combat money-
> > > laundering.
> >
> > I'm suppose that I'm lucky, then, to have long-standing
> > relationships with those who handle my momney, and legal affairs.
>
> I've been with my bank 40 years. They still required ID proofs to
> > relationships with those who handle my momney, and legal affairs.
>
> let me open a different account with them.
>
> Janet
A lot depends on the branch manager and how he/she implements the banks
policies. Some are jobs-worths others have a more common sense approach
Roland Perry
Jul 29, 2012, 3:10:02 AM7/29/12
to
In message <xn0i15pnx...@reader80.eternal-september.org>, at
07:20:02 on Sun, 29 Jul 2012, steve robinson
<st...@colevalleyinteriors.co.uk> remarked:
noted that they wouldn't accept cash over iirc £100. Strangely enough
their reception desk was also the local agency for one of the smaller
Building Societies, so I wondered what might happen if a customer paid a
substantial cash sum into the BS, and then asked for a transfer to the
solictors' practice.
--
Roland Perry
07:20:02 on Sun, 29 Jul 2012, steve robinson
<st...@colevalleyinteriors.co.uk> remarked:
>If you contact the bank they will still transfer higher sums, i
>transfered 100K last year with a phone call (same issue buying a house)
>
>We offered the solicitor cash and she almost choked :)
I used a local solicitor for a small task a couple of years ago and
>transfered 100K last year with a phone call (same issue buying a house)
>
>We offered the solicitor cash and she almost choked :)
noted that they wouldn't accept cash over iirc £100. Strangely enough
their reception desk was also the local agency for one of the smaller
Building Societies, so I wondered what might happen if a customer paid a
substantial cash sum into the BS, and then asked for a transfer to the
solictors' practice.
--
Roland Perry
Roland Perry
Jul 29, 2012, 1:40:03 AM7/29/12
to
In message <jv1esa$irp$1...@dont-email.me>, at 20:40:02 on Sat, 28 Jul
relationship? When I bought and sold houses ten years ago my solicitor
thought about it and decided a previous purchase meant she knew me. But
more recently they tightened up and I had to trot along with a passport
(despite my relationship being even longer standing than before).
--
Roland Perry
2012, Ophelia <Oph...@elsinore.me.uk> remarked:
>>>> I'm suppose that I'm lucky, then, to have long-standing relationships
>>>> with those who handle my momney, and legal affairs.
>>>
>>>Earlier this year, we had our solicitor undertake some personal work
>>>for me as well as transferring title to some of our property. Not
>>>once did she ask for ID.
>>>
>>>As with you, we do have a long standing relationship with her.
>>
>> They are supposed to jump through the hoops, the money laundering
>>regs in the last ten years are quite onerous for the honest middle
>>classes.
>
>As August says, I suspect it depends how well they know you. We most
>certainly have never had any problems.
Have you ever provided ID, or is it entirely a word of mouth
>>>> I'm suppose that I'm lucky, then, to have long-standing relationships
>>>> with those who handle my momney, and legal affairs.
>>>
>>>Earlier this year, we had our solicitor undertake some personal work
>>>for me as well as transferring title to some of our property. Not
>>>once did she ask for ID.
>>>
>>>As with you, we do have a long standing relationship with her.
>>
>> They are supposed to jump through the hoops, the money laundering
>>regs in the last ten years are quite onerous for the honest middle
>>classes.
>
>As August says, I suspect it depends how well they know you. We most
>certainly have never had any problems.
relationship? When I bought and sold houses ten years ago my solicitor
thought about it and decided a previous purchase meant she knew me. But
more recently they tightened up and I had to trot along with a passport
(despite my relationship being even longer standing than before).
--
Roland Perry
Ophelia
Jul 29, 2012, 5:15:03 AM7/29/12
to
news:Nw06O0Vr...@perry.co.uk...
I suppose we must have at some point but I can't remember. As I said, she
has acted for us for many years.
--
--
http://www.shop.helpforheroes.org.uk/
has acted for us for many years.
--
--
http://www.shop.helpforheroes.org.uk/
Adam Funk
Jul 29, 2012, 8:20:02 AM7/29/12
to
On 2012-07-28, Humbug wrote:
> My daughter's ex-boyfriend cannot open a bank account.
> He's never had one.
>
> He lives with his father, so has no utility bills or council tax in
> his name.
>
> He doesn't have a passport.
>
> The only document he has which could prove his identity or address is
> his driving licence, and that can be used for either, but *not* both.
Maybe (I don't know for certain) he could get a joint account with
> My daughter's ex-boyfriend cannot open a bank account.
> He's never had one.
>
> He lives with his father, so has no utility bills or council tax in
> his name.
>
> He doesn't have a passport.
>
> The only document he has which could prove his identity or address is
> his driving licence, and that can be used for either, but *not* both.
someone (his father perhaps?) who has all the required documents, and
then use the statements from that as evidence of address to open his
account.
Adam Funk
Jul 29, 2012, 8:20:09 AM7/29/12
to
On 2012-07-29, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <g8j8181t0bd2ee6rj...@4ax.com>, at 21:45:02 on
> Sat, 28 Jul 2012, Robin Bignall <docr...@ntlworld.com> remarked:
>>>>>This is why most requests for ID are *two* forms. Photo ID, and something
>>>>>with your address on it. Although a driving license can be used as both,
>>>>>I notice it's still common to ask for a recent bill at that address.
>>>>
>>>> That doesn't work anymore. Paperless billing has been around for years
>>>> and most companies offer some incentive for using it.
>>>
>>>Quite often a printed PDF of a utility bill works.
>
> Although some requestors specifically exclude self-printed bills.
True, that's why I wrote "quite often" instead of "almost always". I
> In message <g8j8181t0bd2ee6rj...@4ax.com>, at 21:45:02 on
> Sat, 28 Jul 2012, Robin Bignall <docr...@ntlworld.com> remarked:
>>>>>This is why most requests for ID are *two* forms. Photo ID, and something
>>>>>with your address on it. Although a driving license can be used as both,
>>>>>I notice it's still common to ask for a recent bill at that address.
>>>>
>>>> That doesn't work anymore. Paperless billing has been around for years
>>>> and most companies offer some incentive for using it.
>>>
>>>Quite often a printed PDF of a utility bill works.
>
> Although some requestors specifically exclude self-printed bills.
should have added "these days" at the end too. It seems to me that
the acceptability of self-printed bills is a lot better now than it
was a few years ago.
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