Smart Water Meter question

[billy bookcase]

I have just received a letter from Thames Water about smart
water meters being installed in this area.

We had a similar letter last year, but it all stalled. And talking to
an installer filling a hole in an adjoining street, it seems they
simply ran out of meters. Maybe stuck in the Suez Canal.

The *big difference* this time round is that in addition to an
outside meter they want to fit a *smart* water meter inside, close to
the stop-cock.

(1) Previously having paid a water bill we've always received
marketing bumf from a chosen insurance provider, reminding
us that we're liable for any water losses between the main
and our house i.e under our front garden. Presumably attaching
a meter close to the stop cock, would now absolve us of that
responsibility ?

Yes I know that they're legally entitled to fit a water meter
of some kind. No problem there. But a *smart* water meter ? All
their bumf attempts to gloss over the distinction; possibly
deliberately so ?

Water comes into my house through a pipe chased into the wall, in
what is now the living room; and the stop cock is situated inside
of a cupboard in a built-in a wall unit.

So that to fit an inside smart meter close to the stop cock
they or I would need to chase out a hole in the wall and
dismantle the said wall unit.

(2) Am I legally obliged to co-operate with this or can I insist
that they install the second - or just a single conventional water
meter outside ?

I assume the answer is most definitely not, I don't have to co-operate
Just as I've resisted all *smart* meter entreaties up to now; as I'm
legally entitled to do.

But posting the question on here saves spending a half an hour being kept
on hold on the Thames Water Help Line (sic), (Mon Fri only 8 - 8 ); only
for the operator to totally fail to understand my question, quite possibly
shouted down the phone at the top of my voice eventually; and for me to
be totally unable to understand a single word they're saying by way
of reply.


bb

[Andy Burns]

billy bookcase wrote:

> The *big difference* this time round is that in addition to an
> outside meter they want to fit a *smart* water meter inside, close to
> the stop-cock.

Two meters, or an outside meter with an inside display of the actual meter?

[Roland Perry]

In message <tgmgc8$2uk4j$1...@dont-email.me>, at 09:50:13 on Sat, 24 Sep
2022, billy bookcase <bi...@anon.com> remarked:

>I have just received a letter from Thames Water about smart
>water meters being installed in this area.
>
>We had a similar letter last year, but it all stalled. And talking to
>an installer filling a hole in an adjoining street, it seems they
>simply ran out of meters. Maybe stuck in the Suez Canal.
>
>The *big difference* this time round is that in addition to an
>outside meter they want to fit a *smart* water meter inside, close to
>the stop-cock.

What is a "smart meter" in this context?

Twenty years ago I rented a house where the water meter was inside, near
the stopcock, and the "smartness" was that a meter reader could get a
signal from it outside the building, without having to gain entry.

It's also my understanding that many (most?) water meters installed in
the pavement (or wherever) under those four inch diameter plastic caps,
is readable at a distance. So they don't actually have to prise the top
off and peer down the hole.

I suppose some metric for "smartness" might be what said distance is.
Maybe a few metres(sic) but one meter installer I spoke to said it was
at least hundreds of yards. I have no idea what technology they would
use to facilitate such a long-range transmission.

--
Roland Perry

[Andy Burns]

Roland Perry wrote:

>
> I suppose some metric for "smartness" might be what said distance is. Maybe a
> few metres(sic) but one meter installer I spoke to said it was at least hundreds
> of yards. I have no idea what technology they would use to facilitate such a
> long-range transmission.

I think Arqiva was pushing their same 412 MHz network (as used by smart
electricity/gas meters in the "north" region) for smart water meters.

<https://www.arqiva.com/news-views/views/planning-your-smart-water-networkthe-arqiva-way>

Pretty sure Newmarket is not in the "north" area ...

[Roland Perry]

In message <jp80ip...@mid.individual.net>, at 10:22:29 on Sat, 24
Sep 2022, Andy Burns <use...@andyburns.uk> remarked:

And I'm pretty sure the water meter I had, installed in a three foot
deep hole in the pavement twenty years ago, is unlikely to be on that
network.

How would they power it, anyway? A tiny turbo-electric generating plant
from the water flow...
--
Roland Perry

[Andy Burns]

Roland Perry wrote:

> And I'm pretty sure the water meter I had, installed in a three foot deep hole
> in the pavement twenty years ago, is unlikely to be on that network.
>
> How would they power it, anyway?

same sort of 10 year lithium thionyl chloride batteries used by gas meters ...

[Roland Perry]

In message <jp83nf...@mid.individual.net>, at 11:16:11 on Sat, 24

Sep 2022, Andy Burns <use...@andyburns.uk> remarked:

But such gas meters only have to communicate a few tens of metres to the
comms unit sat next to the electricity meter. Not to this sort of WAN.

And not many gas meters are in a three foot deep hole in the ground (in
my case with a foot of rainwater over the top of the actual meter - I
had to pump that out so I could take a manual reading).
--
Roland Perry

[billy bookcase]

"Roland Perry" <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote in message news:WYDgg+Ax...@perry.uk...

> In message <tgmgc8$2uk4j$1...@dont-email.me>, at 09:50:13 on Sat, 24 Sep 2022, billy
> bookcase <bi...@anon.com> remarked:
>>I have just received a letter from Thames Water about smart
>>water meters being installed in this area.
>>
>>We had a similar letter last year, but it all stalled. And talking to
>>an installer filling a hole in an adjoining street, it seems they
>>simply ran out of meters. Maybe stuck in the Suez Canal.
>>
>>The *big difference* this time round is that in addition to an
>>outside meter they want to fit a *smart* water meter inside, close to
>>the stop-cock.
>
> What is a "smart meter" in this context?

I don't know. Thames Water are very coy about the whole thing.
Maybe if I knew the answer to that, I wouldn't need to be asking
the question


Okay. Another question. Might a smart meter for water be something
they can simply"attach" to the outside of the pipe and measure flow
by say sound or vibration ? As that would be ok - at least until it
fell off

As otherwise if they need to measure the flow then presumably they
need to do a bit of actual plumbing by cutting through the pipe.
Which might prove tricky at the back of a cupboard as I said,

<snip>

.
>>
>>(2) Am I legally obliged to co-operate with this or can I insist
>>that they install the second - or just a single conventional water
>>meter outside ?

>>
>>I assume the answer is most definitely not, I don't have to co-operate

bb

[Theo]

Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> Twenty years ago I rented a house where the water meter was inside, near
> the stopcock, and the "smartness" was that a meter reader could get a
> signal from it outside the building, without having to gain entry.
>
> It's also my understanding that many (most?) water meters installed in
> the pavement (or wherever) under those four inch diameter plastic caps,
> is readable at a distance. So they don't actually have to prise the top
> off and peer down the hole.

Cambridge Water have a system where there's a mechanical meter inside, and
then a cable run outside the house to a 3-4" plastic puck mounted on the
wall, in some area that's publically accessible (on the front wall, or
outside the side gate). I presume a meter reader walks up and places a
reading gadget on it.

I think there must be inductive coupling into the puck, which sets up some
kind of resonance which can detect the position of the meter digits. That
means the meter is unpowered, but can be read when illuminated by the RF
from the puck. A bit like an RFID tag in a way.

The current meter was installed in 1998 and uses that system - I don't know
when the meter in the last house was installed but probably 90s. I've never
seen the meter reader but never had to submit a water meter reading or had
an estimated bill. There has never been any servicing of the meter either.

I see there's this:
https://www.affinitywater.co.uk/docs/policies/AMR-meters.pdf
but I'm not convinced the 'puck' would work in a drive-by scenario: I can't
imagine there's enough power from the roadside to illuminate the passive RF.

(I'd dig out the model number to look up the system, but the internal meter
is a PITA to access)

Theo
(who wouldn't be averse to a smart water meter if I could lose the unsightly
cable)

[Roland Perry]

In message <tgmqvo$2vfgc$1...@dont-email.me>, at 12:51:15 on Sat, 24 Sep

As far as I know all water meters require an in-flow measuring device.
If that's too difficult to install, then they'll probably not do it.
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <qXj*WW...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 12:57:52 on Sat,
24 Sep 2022, Theo <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:

>Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> Twenty years ago I rented a house where the water meter was inside, near
>> the stopcock, and the "smartness" was that a meter reader could get a
>> signal from it outside the building, without having to gain entry.
>>
>> It's also my understanding that many (most?) water meters installed in
>> the pavement (or wherever) under those four inch diameter plastic caps,
>> is readable at a distance. So they don't actually have to prise the top
>> off and peer down the hole.
>
>Cambridge Water have a system where there's a mechanical meter inside, and
>then a cable run outside the house to a 3-4" plastic puck mounted on the
>wall, in some area that's publically accessible (on the front wall, or
>outside the side gate). I presume a meter reader walks up and places a
>reading gadget on it.
>
>I think there must be inductive coupling into the puck, which sets up some
>kind of resonance which can detect the position of the meter digits. That
>means the meter is unpowered, but can be read when illuminated by the RF
>from the puck. A bit like an RFID tag in a way.
>
>The current meter was installed in 1998 and uses that system - I don't know
>when the meter in the last house was installed but probably 90s. I've never
>seen the meter reader but never had to submit a water meter reading or had
>an estimated bill. There has never been any servicing of the meter either.

That's entirely consistent with the system I had twenty years ago. The
puck, or whatever, being just the other side of the outside wall where
the meter was installed indoors (in a utility room off the kitchen).

--
Roland Perry

[Andy Burns]

Roland Perry wrote:

> And not many gas meters are in a three foot deep hole in the ground (in my case
> with a foot of rainwater over the top of the actual meter - I had to pump that
> out so I could take a manual reading).

I presume when replacing a water meter to make it smart, an aerial may be
positioned just under the plastic cover, not at the bottom of the hole?

The alternative is to read them from closer-by such as a vehicle that prowls the
streets?

[Peter Johnson]

On 24 Sep 2022 12:57:52 +0100 (BST), Theo

<theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:


>Cambridge Water have a system where there's a mechanical meter inside, and
>then a cable run outside the house to a 3-4" plastic puck mounted on the
>wall, in some area that's publically accessible (on the front wall, or
>outside the side gate). I presume a meter reader walks up and places a
>reading gadget on it.
>
>I think there must be inductive coupling into the puck, which sets up some
>kind of resonance which can detect the position of the meter digits. That
>means the meter is unpowered, but can be read when illuminated by the RF
>from the puck. A bit like an RFID tag in a way.
>

Sounds the same as mine, installed by Severn Trent when I moved into
this house 25 years ago. Never seen the meter reader but during the
Covid lockdowns I was asked to submit manual readings via the ST
website.

[Mark Goodge]

I've got a metered supply from Severn Trent, and as a general rule they
email me every six months and ask me to submit a reading. But, every now and
then, a reading also appears on my online account that says it's been made
by them - but I know they've never been in the house since I've lived here!
Also, the email I get from them asking for a meter reading says that if I'm
having problems supplying it, they will visit to take one, but then goes on
to say that "in most cases we can read your meter from outside your
property".

So, yes, I suspect it does have some kind of RF system which enables it to
be read remotely despite being unpowered. I presume they still prefer not to
have to bother to even send someone round to stand outside my house, if I'm
happy to crawl under the sink and read the meter for them, but they will if
they need to and will occasionally anyway just to check that the readings
I'm giving them are plausible.

Mark

[Davey]

On 24 Sep 2022 12:57:52 +0100 (BST)

Theo <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

> Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> > Twenty years ago I rented a house where the water meter was inside,
> > near the stopcock, and the "smartness" was that a meter reader
> > could get a signal from it outside the building, without having to
> > gain entry.
> >
> > It's also my understanding that many (most?) water meters installed
> > in the pavement (or wherever) under those four inch diameter
> > plastic caps, is readable at a distance. So they don't actually
> > have to prise the top off and peer down the hole.
>
> Cambridge Water have a system where there's a mechanical meter
> inside, and then a cable run outside the house to a 3-4" plastic puck
> mounted on the wall, in some area that's publically accessible (on
> the front wall, or outside the side gate). I presume a meter reader
> walks up and places a reading gadget on it.

That is the standard system I saw in every property I lived in in the
USA for 30+ years. They always had a display just like a normal electric
meter, ie rolling digits. There was no power suppied to the actual
meter, as far as I know.
>
Ah, from that well-known fount of all knowledge, Wikipedia:

"Registers.

There are several types of registers on water meters. A standard
register normally has a dial similar to a clock, with gradations around
the perimeter to indicate the measuring unit and the amount of water
used, if less than the lowest digit in a display similar to the
odometer wheels in a car, their sum is the total volume used. Modern
registers are normally driven by a magnetic coupling between a magnet
in the measuring chamber attached to the measuring element and another
attached to the bottom of the register. Gears in the register convert
the motion of the measuring element to the proper usage increment for
display on the sweep hand and the odometer-style wheels. Many registers
also have a leak detector. This is a small visible disk or hand that is
geared closer to the rotation speed of the drive magnet, so that very
small flows that would be visually undetectable on the regular sweep
hand can be seen. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_metering

That fits what I was used to seeing. The display was always on the
front wall of the house, so the meter reader just had to walk up each
home's driveway to read the meter.
--
Davey.

[Michael Chare]

The stop cock for my water supply is on the boundary of my property. It
was replaced by a meter with built in stop cock when I elected to have a
metered supply. There must be pipework from this stop cock to both my
house and a detached garage as they are independant of each other.

Since all the pipe work downstream of this belongs to me and is
maintained by me I would not want it altered.

It appears that my water supply company has a smart meter trial. They
state that the FlexNet communication network from Sensus, a Xylem brand,
is the most widely deployed Advanced Metering Infrastructure (AMI) for
smart water networks in the UK, having been specifically optimised to
provide reliable connectivity while ensuring the longest possible
battery life in the smart meter. As part of the pilot programme, it
provides secure and reliable connectivity to 1,800 meters located
primarily underground, outside residential properties in the area.

So hopefully they will not want to alter the pipe work downstream of
meter. I had not hard of smart water meters before I read this thread.
I dislike smart meters as they make it obvious when a property is not
occupied which has security implications.

[Roland Perry]

In message <tgp0mq$38c96$1...@dont-email.me>, at 08:41:14 on Sun, 25 Sep
2022, Davey <da...@example.invalid> remarked:

That's an externally mounted water meter, not an internal one which can
be read via an externally mounted gadget.

<https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/black-plastic-wall-fixing-
what-is-it/>
--
Roland Perry

[Andy Burns]

Michael Chare wrote:

> I had not hard of smart water meters before I read this thread. I dislike
> smart meters as they make it obvious when a property is not occupied which
> has security implications.

Some people use timers to turn lights on/off when they're away, maybe there's a
market for timers to flush the loo as well?

[billy bookcase]

"billy bookcase" <bi...@anon.com> wrote in message news:tgmgc8$2uk4j$1...@dont-email.me...

>I have just received a letter from Thames Water about smart
> water meters being installed in this area.

Having read to the bottom of the letter, the reason given for smart meter
installation is to source leaks. And this does actually make sense.
If they have meters at point A and point B on their network, then what
goes in at point A should be the same as what goes out at point B along
with what goes out at all the intermediate outlets; assuming these are
all also metered.

Smart meters would presumably allow them to monitor the situation
automatically 24/7. So that as soon as a leak was detected a specialist
team could be alerted, and be on the road within minutes and have the
road dug up and the leak repaired and all within the next nine months.
Weather and road works permitting.


bb

[AnthonyL]

On Sat, 24 Sep 2022 13:26:15 +0100, Andy Burns <use...@andyburns.uk>
wrote:

This thread is now making me wonder if there has been a change of
approach by our water company. When I first moved here 6 years ago we
received our reading and bill even though no-one had been in the
property and when I asked I was told it was read remotely by a van.

The last year or so I've been asked to provide a reading. The meter
is below the sink, and I had meant to chase up the need for this.

I now am wondering whether the supplier is looking for a difference
between the two reading to establish if there are any leaks on
household properties.


--
AnthonyL

Why ever wait to finish a job before starting the next?

[Roland Perry]

In message <jpatu4...@mid.individual.net>, at 12:55:35 on Sun, 25
Sep 2022, Andy Burns <use...@andyburns.uk> remarked:

There's no equivalent of "Economy 7" for water usage.
--
Roland Perry

[Davey]

Yeah, true. What I am used to is just a rolling digit readout, but that
Wiki article doesn't show it.
Your link shows, I think, something that needs another thing to read it,
but the ones I knew were all visual only. Just like an old-style car
odometer.
https://www.flows.com/digital-displays-for-water-meters/
I guess they don't make non-LCD displays any more, too 'old-school'.
--
Davey.

[Theo]

AnthonyL <nos...@please.invalid> wrote:
> This thread is now making me wonder if there has been a change of
> approach by our water company. When I first moved here 6 years ago we
> received our reading and bill even though no-one had been in the
> property and when I asked I was told it was read remotely by a van.
>
> The last year or so I've been asked to provide a reading. The meter
> is below the sink, and I had meant to chase up the need for this.
>
> I now am wondering whether the supplier is looking for a difference
> between the two reading to establish if there are any leaks on
> household properties.

I wonder if your meter has a long-life battery and the battery is flat, but
the water company CBA (or because COVID or staffing or whatever) to change
it?

Theo

[TTman]

My 'smart meter' was fitted in place of the old meter out in the
pavement... No way could they have fitted it inside the house by the
stopcock without ripping out most of my downstairs WC.



--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com

[TTman]

But a gas meter sends data every 30 mins ad nausium. A water meter only
has to send data once every 6 months or so. 1 or 2uA average current is
easily achievable with wake up on demand ...

[TTman]

No aerials in sight...

[TTman]

As I understand it, water loss can easily be monitored with smart
meters, with ( maybe ) a master device at each end of a node ??

[Michael Chare]

Possibly because water suppliers can store their water in large
quantities unlike electricity suppliers.

We always turn are water off when we go away partly to prevent floods!

[Roland Perry]

In message <tgphoq$3apso$1...@dont-email.me>, at 13:32:25 on Sun, 25 Sep

2022, Davey <da...@example.invalid> remarked:
>On Sun, 25 Sep 2022 12:08:36 +0100
>Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> In message <tgp0mq$38c96$1...@dont-email.me>, at 08:41:14 on Sun, 25 Sep
>> 2022, Davey <da...@example.invalid> remarked:
>> >On 24 Sep 2022 12:57:52 +0100 (BST)
>> >Theo <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> >> > Twenty years ago I rented a house where the water meter was
>> >> > inside, near the stopcock, and the "smartness" was that a meter
>> >> > reader could get a signal from it outside the building, without
>> >> > having to gain entry.
>> >> >
>> >> > It's also my understanding that many (most?) water meters
>> >> > installed in the pavement (or wherever) under those four inch
>> >> > diameter plastic caps, is readable at a distance. So they don't
>> >> > actually have to prise the top off and peer down the hole.
>> >>
>> >> Cambridge Water have a system where there's a mechanical meter
>> >> inside, and then a cable run outside the house to a 3-4" plastic
>> >> puck mounted on the wall, in some area that's publically
>> >> accessible (on the front wall, or outside the side gate). I
>> >> presume a meter reader walks up and places a reading gadget on

***********************************************************

Yes, see text at **** above, which you then affirmed.

>but the ones I knew were all visual only. Just like an old-style car
>odometer.
>https://www.flows.com/digital-displays-for-water-meters/
>I guess they don't make non-LCD displays any more, too 'old-school'.

The ones in the UK mounted down holes in the round (typically in the
pathway beside the road) have mechanical readouts. And perhaps (this is
what we've been mainly discussing) some sort of remote-readable radio
frequency transducer. FSVO "remote" - another topic of the discussion.
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <tgq14p$3c671$2...@dont-email.me>, at 17:54:48 on Sun, 25 Sep
2022, TTman <kraken...@gmail.com> remarked:

>On 24/09/2022 11:49, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <jp83nf...@mid.individual.net>, at 11:16:11 on Sat, 24
>>Sep 2022, Andy Burns <use...@andyburns.uk> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry wrote:
>>>
>>>> And I'm pretty sure the water meter I had, installed in a three
>>>>foot deep hole  in the pavement twenty years ago, is unlikely to be
>>>>on that network.
>>>>  How would they power it, anyway?
>>>
>>> same sort of 10 year lithium thionyl chloride batteries used by gas
>>>meters ...
>> But such gas meters only have to communicate a few tens of metres to
>>the comms unit sat next to the electricity meter. Not to this sort of
>>WAN.
>> And not many gas meters are in a three foot deep hole in the ground
>>(in my case with a foot of rainwater over the top of the actual meter
>>- I had to pump that out so I could take a manual reading).

>But a gas meter sends data every 30 mins ad nausium.

Smart gas meters are fairly well understood I think - a ten year battery
and a link to a comms device which has mains power, a few feet away.

>A water meter only has to send data once every 6 months or so. 1 or 2uA
>average current is easily achievable with wake up on demand ...

But were is it sending the data (which has to include both serial number
and consumption - meters are often installed in clusters)? To a gadget
held by a meter reader walking the street above, perhaps.
--
Roland Perry

[AnthonyL]

On 25 Sep 2022 16:03:49 +0100 (BST), Theo

Right, I think I had misunderstood the operation and had assumed that
as well as the meter in the house that there was a meter buried in the
road which emitted an RFD signal.

Your post has encouraged me to look more closely at the meter under
the sink and it seems to have an EverBlu Cyble device attached, and
the specs indicate a battery life of 10yr. We've been here 6yrs and
it hasn't been replaced in that time.

If that is the case then my "wondering" is a load of nonsense - and no
doubt not for the first time :( , or is that :)

[TTman]

>
>> A water meter only has to send data once every 6 months or so. 1 or
>> 2uA average current is easily achievable with wake up on demand ...
>
> But were is it sending the data (which has to include both serial number
> and consumption - meters are often installed in clusters)? To a gadget
> held by a meter reader walking the street above, perhaps.

Yes, or to a passing vehicle.