Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss
Downgrading and redundancy
77 views
Skip to first unread message
Paul Giverin
Dec 15, 2013, 9:35:09 AM12/15/13
to
Can an employer downgrade a number of workers from (say) a grade 3
position down to a grade 2 position, then make redundancies from those
who were already in grade 2 positions?
--
Paul Giverin
My Photos:- www.giverin.co.uk
position down to a grade 2 position, then make redundancies from those
who were already in grade 2 positions?
--
Paul Giverin
My Photos:- www.giverin.co.uk
Message has been deleted
Mark Goodge
Dec 15, 2013, 4:25:02 PM12/15/13
to
On Sun, 15 Dec 2013 19:35:02 +0000, August West put finger to keyboard and
typed:
>
>The entity calling itself Paul Giverin wrote:
>>
>> Can an employer downgrade a number of workers from (say) a grade 3
>> position down to a grade 2 position, then make redundancies from those
>> who were already in grade 2 positions?
>
>There arent really enough details in this description to be sure, in its
>broadest terms, yes (if the correct procedures are followed).
>It's called "bounced redundancy".
To expand a bit on this: Redundancy is when one or more jobs are
disappearing and people have to be dismissed in order to bring the number
of staff down to match the number of positions. If a job that is
disappearing is the precise job done by the person being dismissed, then no
justification other than the loss of the job is necessary.
However, if there is no direct correspondance between specific lost jobs
and individual staff (eg, if the organisation is being restructured and/or
staff are moving roles as well as some being dismissed), then the selection
criteria for who loses their job (and who doesn't) have to be fair and
objective and apply equally to everyone.
"Last in, first out" is probably the most widely used criteria in these
cases, but seniority is also fairly common (and, in a rigidly hierarchical
structure, often maps pretty closely to LIFO anyway). Appraisal scores and
disciplinary records can also be used. So long as they're objective and
fair, pretty much any criteria can be used except those which are
explicitly forbidden by anti-discrimination legislation.
So, yes, it would be possible to reduce jobs by dismissing people on lower
grades and downgrading people on higher grades. Provided, of course, that
it's all done properly and the creteria genuinely are onjective and fair.
Mark
--
Please take a short survey on salary perceptions: http://meyu.eu/am
My blog: http://mark.goodge.co.uk
typed:
>
>The entity calling itself Paul Giverin wrote:
>>
>> Can an employer downgrade a number of workers from (say) a grade 3
>> position down to a grade 2 position, then make redundancies from those
>> who were already in grade 2 positions?
>
>broadest terms, yes (if the correct procedures are followed).
>It's called "bounced redundancy".
To expand a bit on this: Redundancy is when one or more jobs are
disappearing and people have to be dismissed in order to bring the number
of staff down to match the number of positions. If a job that is
disappearing is the precise job done by the person being dismissed, then no
justification other than the loss of the job is necessary.
However, if there is no direct correspondance between specific lost jobs
and individual staff (eg, if the organisation is being restructured and/or
staff are moving roles as well as some being dismissed), then the selection
criteria for who loses their job (and who doesn't) have to be fair and
objective and apply equally to everyone.
"Last in, first out" is probably the most widely used criteria in these
cases, but seniority is also fairly common (and, in a rigidly hierarchical
structure, often maps pretty closely to LIFO anyway). Appraisal scores and
disciplinary records can also be used. So long as they're objective and
fair, pretty much any criteria can be used except those which are
explicitly forbidden by anti-discrimination legislation.
So, yes, it would be possible to reduce jobs by dismissing people on lower
grades and downgrading people on higher grades. Provided, of course, that
it's all done properly and the creteria genuinely are onjective and fair.
Mark
--
Please take a short survey on salary perceptions: http://meyu.eu/am
My blog: http://mark.goodge.co.uk
Paul Giverin
Dec 15, 2013, 4:20:09 PM12/15/13
to
In message <87bo0h3...@news2.kororaa.com>, August West
<aug...@kororaa.com> writes
Thanks for your help.
<aug...@kororaa.com> writes
>
>The entity calling itself Paul Giverin wrote:
>>
>The entity calling itself Paul Giverin wrote:
>>
>> Can an employer downgrade a number of workers from (say) a grade 3
>> position down to a grade 2 position, then make redundancies from those
>> who were already in grade 2 positions?
>
>> position down to a grade 2 position, then make redundancies from those
>> who were already in grade 2 positions?
>
>There arent really enough details in this description to be sure, in its
>broadest terms, yes (if the correct procedures are followed).
>It's called "bounced redundancy".
>
I've heard the term used recently. It would appear that its legal.
>broadest terms, yes (if the correct procedures are followed).
>It's called "bounced redundancy".
>
Thanks for your help.
RJH
Dec 15, 2013, 7:55:02 PM12/15/13
to
On 15/12/2013 14:35, Paul Giverin wrote:
> Can an employer downgrade a number of workers from (say) a grade 3
> position down to a grade 2 position, then make redundancies from those
> who were already in grade 2 positions?
>
Sounds like a cynical ploy.
> Can an employer downgrade a number of workers from (say) a grade 3
> position down to a grade 2 position, then make redundancies from those
> who were already in grade 2 positions?
>
Downgrading would presumably involve a contract change - which workers
are hardly likely to agree to. So in a sense an employer can't simply
downgrade.
If the downgrading was agreed, and the result was a surplus of workers
for a particular task, then I think it would count as redundancy. But
I'd challenge the seemingly contrived way it came about.
--
Cheers, Rob
Ian Smith
Dec 16, 2013, 2:10:02 AM12/16/13
to
On Mon, 16 Dec 2013 00:55:02 +0000, RJH <patch...@gmx.com> wrote:
> On 15/12/2013 14:35, Paul Giverin wrote:
> > Can an employer downgrade a number of workers from (say) a grade 3
> > position down to a grade 2 position, then make redundancies from
> > those who were already in grade 2 positions?
>
> On 15/12/2013 14:35, Paul Giverin wrote:
> > Can an employer downgrade a number of workers from (say) a grade 3
> > position down to a grade 2 position, then make redundancies from
> > those who were already in grade 2 positions?
>
> If the downgrading was agreed, and the result was a surplus of
> workers for a particular task, then I think it would count as
> redundancy. But I'd challenge the seemingly contrived way it came
> about.
In what way is it contrived? It looks perfectly straightforward - a
> workers for a particular task, then I think it would count as
> redundancy. But I'd challenge the seemingly contrived way it came
> about.
restructuring of the workforce, after which some posts are redundant.
It seems entirely plausible that the people formerly in grade 3
positions are more useful to the company than those in grade 2
(that being why they were grade 3), so it seems entirely plausible
that when reviewing the now grade 2 positions, redundancy is more
likely among those who were not grade 3.
regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|
0 new messages