Bird feeding saga update

[TTman]

The complaining neighbour has now resorted to firing a BB gun at the pigeons
that like sitting in our trees at the bottom of our garden. I can only
presume that the council have told them to stop throwing stones ( which they
seem to have done). They still continue to bang on their metal dustbin lid,
their wheelbarrow and slam their garden shed door in an attempt to scare
away the pigeons, which it does, momentarily.
Such a pain given that we live in a peaceful rural area. :(
So are they breaking any laws ? Endangering wildlife? Illegal use of a BB
gun ? ( by firing onto/over our property ?) Seems pretty futile to me,
unless they actually hit an ingure on of the birds with a 'lucky' shot. In
that case, I'd be straight onto the RSPCA.
No retaliation planned, I'd just like to know if he's breaking any laws so
it can be documented for later.
TIA

[Ophelia]

"TTman" <pcw1...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:jpoe6r$o6k$1...@dont-email.me...

If they fire any sort of airgun, the law requires that they ensure the
projectile does not go beyond the boundaries of their own property, failure
to do so is an offence under the firearms act (yes, even if it is only a BB
gun!). If they are shooting at pigeons in a tree that is on your property
they are also breaking the common licence which would give them the right to
control a pest species but only on their own property. A word with the local
police should bring them a visit rather quickly. If they are firing from a
position that is within 50 *feet* of the centre of any public right-of-way
and in doing so are causing any hindrance or danger to other users of the
right-of-way (including you) that is another offence. The police like this
sort of thing because although it doesn't pose any significant risk to them
it is an extra statistic under the firearms act and isn't differentiated
from even much more serious ones!

Also look up the Protection from Harassment Act. If their noise is causing
you repeated annoyance complain to them on at least 2 occasions - with an
independent witness or in writing - using the appropriate wording from the
act. Harassment is odd in that it is both a civil and criminal offence.

From what you have said, your neighbours are potentially committing a number
of offences.
--
--

http://www.shop.helpforheroes.org.uk/

[Jon Ribbens]

It looks to me like it is a criminal offence under section 21A of the
Firearms Act 1968, punishable by a fine of up to £1,000.

[TTman]

"Ophelia" <Oph...@elsinore.me.uk> wrote in message
news:jpohqc$fuv$1...@dont-email.me...

Thanks for that, most enlightening.... we have no wish to confront them
directly.... the noise is just incidental and is only a nuisance when we are
sitting outside in the garden...
The protection act mentions... :_
(c)that in the particular circumstances the pursuit of the course of conduct
was reasonable
One could argue that his futile attempts to move the birds on
was'reasonable'...
The firearms act seems a good one, considering that there is a canal tow
path within 50' as well as the road in front of our houses...
I never thought a BB gun could attract such attention ....

[steve robinson]

Pigeons are looked upon as vermin so can be shot, if they are shooting
across your land they need your consent, they need to be at least 50
feet from any public access or the shot needs to be contained within
the boundaries.

BB guns are not really suitable for dispatching pigeons if you cant hit
them in the head or neck then its quite possible you will not get a
clean kill , the rspca might take a dim view of this.

If they discharge the gun accross your land again i suggest you
immediatly phone the police and let them deal with it.

[GB]

> Pigeons are looked upon as vermin

Is there a particular reason for wanting to encourage them?

The neighbour could buy a couple of cats or seek the services of a pest
control man with a raptor. I cannot see how either of those actions could be
stopped.

And don't forget the Tom Lehrer song "It just takes a smidgen.... ".

[Periander]

On 25-May-2012, "TTman" <pcw1...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

> The complaining neighbour has now resorted to firing a BB gun at the
> pigeons

Hopefully before anyone gets to excited a BB gun is a toy, not an air weapon
and not a firearm, pellets from such a weapon would bounce of a pigeon
without causing harm.

It's a nuisence and nothing more ... ASBO would be the ultimate solution via
the criminal route ... or some form of injunction via the civil route.

--

All the best,

Periander

[Peter Crosland]

A call to the police is likely to get a very quick, and heavy, response
from the Police. That is probably to quickest and easiest solution.


Peter Crosland

[TTman]

"GB" <NOTso...@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:4fc00554$0$7321$5b6a...@news.zen.co.uk...

>> Pigeons are looked upon as vermin
>
> Is there a particular reason for wanting to encourage them?

No, we actively discourage them by NOT putting out any food that they will
eat...or get at.
They seem quite happy picking grit off our concrete drive. What they get out
of that I have no idea.

>
> The neighbour could buy a couple of cats or seek the services of a pest
> control man with a raptor. I cannot see how either of those actions could
> be
> stopped.

Live and let live I say.... we have cats, we have Sparrowhawks that take
pigeons regularly.

I think the neighbour finds their 'Coooing' disturbing.
I just don't get it. :(

[GB]

TTman wrote:

> Live and let live I say.... we have cats, we have Sparrowhawks that
> take pigeons regularly.
>
> I think the neighbour finds their 'Coooing' disturbing.
> I just don't get it. :(

In that case, unless you perceive any danger from the neighbours firing BB
guns at the pigeons, why not give them permission to fire over your land?
Shotguns would be better, although a boxful of cartridges would reduce your
trees to shreds.

--
Register as an organ donor with the NHS online. It takes 1 minute and
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[Partac]

"Periander" wrote in message news:a2aj6d...@mid.individual.net...

Not necessarily. See :

https://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q327.htm

I would suggest that if it is powerful enough to harm a pigeon, it probably
comes into the 'more powerful' bracket.

[Ophelia]

"Periander" <u...@britwar.couk> wrote in message
news:a2aj6d...@mid.individual.net...
>

That depends on the type of BB gun. If it is a 'soft air' weapon producing
less than 1 joule and usually firing plastic BBs then you are right, but
there are many modern air rifles and pistols, usually using CO2 as a
propellant and firing lead or steel BBs, that are classed as standard air
weapons, with all the same restrictions on ownership and use as those which
fire lead pellets. In fact some of these guns will fire either type of
ammunition.

--
--

http://www.shop.helpforheroes.org.uk/

[Syd Rumpo]

<snip>

There are essentially two types of what are often called BB guns.

Airsoft guns fire lightweight 6mm plastic spheres which are generally
safe to fire at people wearing face protection, and will sting a lot at
close range but wouldn't break a window.

Traditional air guns (which may be powered by CO2 capsules) often fire
4.5mm steel ball bearings which are far more dangerous, and can maim as
well as easily break windows.

Not a legal point, but the former are probably no threat, whereas the
latter needs sorting out, IMHO.

Cheers
--
Syd

[TTman]

"GB" <NOTso...@microsoft.com> wrote in message

news:4fc0944e$0$7309$5b6a...@news.zen.co.uk...

> TTman wrote:
>
>> Live and let live I say.... we have cats, we have Sparrowhawks that
>> take pigeons regularly.
>>
>> I think the neighbour finds their 'Coooing' disturbing.
>> I just don't get it. :(
>
> In that case, unless you perceive any danger from the neighbours firing BB
> guns at the pigeons, why not give them permission to fire over your land?
> Shotguns would be better, although a boxful of cartridges would reduce
> your
> trees to shreds.
>

Humanely despatching an animal is fine. Wounding it in some way such that it
suffers a long and painful demise is not on.
If they are so distressed by the pigeons, then they should arrange for them
to be despatched humanely .They don't bother us although we would prefer
them to be somewhere else. NIMBY type of thing.

[Lordgnome]

"Peter Crosland" <g6...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4IednZ1sDe1d5V3S...@brightview.co.uk...

Quite. And what an utter waste of police time and resources, let alone
council tax-payers cash it would be!

Les.

[steve robinson]

TTman is it a bb gun or air rifle, i only ask because many people do
not differentiate the two

A bb gun will kill a pigeon if you hit it in the kneck or head.

[GB]

TTman wrote:
>>
>> In that case, unless you perceive any danger from the neighbours
>> firing BB guns at the pigeons, why not give them permission to fire
>> over your land? Shotguns would be better, although a boxful of
>> cartridges would reduce your
>> trees to shreds.
>>
> Humanely despatching an animal is fine. Wounding it in some way such
> that it suffers a long and painful demise is not on.
> If they are so distressed by the pigeons, then they should arrange
> for them to be despatched humanely .They don't bother us although we
> would prefer them to be somewhere else. NIMBY type of thing.

Ah, okay, I see where you are coming from on this.

Do you know whether your neighbours are using the type of BB gun that could
actually harm a pigeon? I agree that using a gun that's underpowered and
wounds the birds, would be cruel. OTOH a gun that's so underpowered that it
does not wound but scares them off seems to be okay.

This being a country district, could they use a bird scarer?

[Jethro_uk]

On Sat, 26 May 2012 08:35:01 +0100, TTman wrote:

> "GB" <NOTso...@microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:4fc00554$0$7321$5b6a...@news.zen.co.uk...
>>> Pigeons are looked upon as vermin
>>
>> Is there a particular reason for wanting to encourage them?
>
> No, we actively discourage them by NOT putting out any food that they
> will eat...or get at.
> They seem quite happy picking grit off our concrete drive. What they get
> out of that I have no idea.

ISTR that a lot of birds eat grit or sand to aid digestion ...

[Jason James]

> Hopefully before anyone gets to excited a BB gun is a toy, not an air weapon
> and not a firearm, pellets from such a weapon would bounce of a pigeon
> without causing harm.

A toy which is capable of causing serious injury to a human being, as
evidenced by the hospital admission statistics.

I find it hard to believe that something capable of hospitalising a
human is harmless to a pigeon.

I also find it unlikely that the sort of person who acts in this way
is capable of identifying the different species commonly known as
"pigeon" and determining which ones are protected species and which
not.

[Ian Smith]

On Sat, 26 May 2012 17:45:02 +0100, Gaz <sp...@spam.com> wrote:
>
> Phone the police and report for using a gun, personally it would be
> better to do so using an registered mobile phone then embellish the
> report with "it was a definitely I high powered rifle" when asked how do
> you know that, Just say you were in the forces and have used such
> weapons.
>
> Hopefully the police will make a polite, early morning call on said
> neighbours...

FWIW, despite all these people saying the police will descend in
seconds, when I last reported people on the waste ground that backs
onto my garden were shooting at foxes with a weapon that was
sufficiently powerful to kill at least one of said foxes, and that
some of the bullets / pellets / whatever were entering my garden where
I was sitting out (at least one passed me close enough I heard it
whistle, and then hit the house), I got fobbed off. They said they
were bound to be licensed pest controllers. I said I didn't care if
they were licensed, and I had no objection to them shooting foxes, I
wanted to prevent them shooting me or my daughters. They said they
were sure that wouldn't happen (quite how they were sure, when one
bullet had literally whistled past my head, I don't know).

I did contemplate asking whether it would be OK if I returned fire,
but I thought better of it.

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|

[TTman]

>>
>> Not necessarily. See :
>>
>> https://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q327.htm
>>
>> I would suggest that if it is powerful enough to harm a pigeon, it
>> probably comes into the 'more powerful' bracket.
>
> TTman is it a bb gun or air rifle, i only ask because many people do
> not differentiate the two
>
> A bb gun will kill a pigeon if you hit it in the kneck or head.
>

It could well be an air gun. I haven't seen it, just heard it being fired
and I couldn't tell the difference....

[TTman]

"Jason James" <jj22...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:64b74f64-9a09-406a...@l17g2000vbj.googlegroups.com...

He's totally not capable of distinguishing the three types we have here..

[TTman]

>> Humanely despatching an animal is fine. Wounding it in some way such
>> that it suffers a long and painful demise is not on.
>> If they are so distressed by the pigeons, then they should arrange
>> for them to be despatched humanely .They don't bother us although we
>> would prefer them to be somewhere else. NIMBY type of thing.
>
> Ah, okay, I see where you are coming from on this.
>
> Do you know whether your neighbours are using the type of BB gun that
> could
> actually harm a pigeon? I agree that using a gun that's underpowered and
> wounds the birds, would be cruel. OTOH a gun that's so underpowered that
> it
> does not wound but scares them off seems to be okay.

I think it's a plastic bullet type. Totally innefective but makes a zip as
it goes through the tree leaves...

>
> This being a country district, could they use a bird scarer?

This being a country district, that's the last thing I want to hear. !

Playing a Sparrowhawk 'screech' would work well, but he doesn't have the
brains for that LOL.
The botom line is they will never leave, whatever goes on, unless they get
professionally culled.Even then some will get away and come back.

[Ophelia]

"Ian Smith" <i...@astounding.org.uk> wrote in message
news:slrnjs27g...@acheron.astounding.org.uk...

lol a bullet doesn't whistle as it goes by you, it cracks!
--
--

http://www.shop.helpforheroes.org.uk/

[Periander]

On 26-May-2012, "Ophelia" <Oph...@elsinore.me.uk> wrote:

> That depends on the type of BB gun. If it is a 'soft air' weapon producing
>
> less than 1 joule and usually firing plastic BBs then you are right, but
> there are many modern air rifles and pistols, usually using CO2 as a
> propellant and firing lead or steel BBs, that are classed as standard air
> weapons, with all the same restrictions on ownership and use as those
> which
> fire lead pellets. In fact some of these guns will fire either type of
> ammunition.

Hate to be pedantic

But an air weapon that's used to fire steel BBs is not described as a BB
gun, it's described as an air weapon.

Although the point apears moot as the OP has just said (bless 'im) that he
can't tell the difference.

[Periander]

On 26-May-2012, Jason James <jj22...@gmail.com> wrote:

> A toy which is capable of causing serious injury to a human being, as
> evidenced by the hospital admission statistics.
>
> I find it hard to believe that something capable of hospitalising a
> human is harmless to a pigeon.

Well yes OK you win, hit the poor thing in the eye and it'll squeal like a
stuck pig but the chances of achieving that sort of hit at more than a few
feet with a BB gun are akin to the odds of winning the lottery.

BTW I googled "hospital admission statistics bb gun uk" and drew a blank.
Certainly a few hits via google described air gun injuries but once I
drilled down nothing about BB guns. Perhaps if you have the time you could
point me at your source, I'd be genuinely interested.

[Periander]

On 26-May-2012, "Partac" <any...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

> Not necessarily. See :
>
> https://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q327.htm

Cool, in essence it says that a device may be a BB gun or an air weapon and
it describes BB guns as "Toy like" and advises that BB guns should not be
given as toys to *young* (their emphasis) children to play with.

If it's any help the protected side of the site gives the same advice but
uses longer words ... ie a BB gun is not an Air Weapon and advises police
officers not to shoot children playing cowboys and indians.

> I would suggest that if it is powerful enough to harm a pigeon, it
> probably
> comes into the 'more powerful' bracket.

Where did that come from? Nowhere did the OP suggest that any pigeon had
been harmed. Be careful of your source before leaping to conclusions.

(Granted the OP now states that he doesn't know if the "gun" was a BB gun or
an airweapon)

[Ophelia]

"Periander" <u...@britwar.couk> wrote in message

news:a2ct0v...@mid.individual.net...

>
> On 26-May-2012, "Ophelia" <Oph...@elsinore.me.uk> wrote:
>
>> That depends on the type of BB gun. If it is a 'soft air' weapon
>> producing
>>
>> less than 1 joule and usually firing plastic BBs then you are right, but
>> there are many modern air rifles and pistols, usually using CO2 as a
>> propellant and firing lead or steel BBs, that are classed as standard air
>> weapons, with all the same restrictions on ownership and use as those
>> which
>> fire lead pellets. In fact some of these guns will fire either type of
>> ammunition.
>
> Hate to be pedantic
>
> But an air weapon that's used to fire steel BBs is not described as a BB
> gun, it's described as an air weapon.

As I said, it depends on who is doing the describing:)

> Although the point apears moot as the OP has just said (bless 'im) that he
> can't tell the difference.

Well there is that ...:)
--

http://www.shop.helpforheroes.org.uk/

[Periander]

On 26-May-2012, "Ophelia" <Oph...@elsinore.me.uk> wrote:

> lol a bullet doesn't whistle as it goes by you, it cracks!

Now to be really pedantic (grin) assuming you're within effective range, the
ammunition hasn't been nerfed or the weapon likewise - say in the case of a
low power round firing through a silenced weapon you don't hear the "crack"
until it's long past you :-)

[Ian Smith]

On Sat, 26 May 2012 21:10:02 +0100, Ophelia <Oph...@elsinore.me.uk> wrote:
>
>
> "Ian Smith" <i...@astounding.org.uk> wrote in message
> news:slrnjs27g...@acheron.astounding.org.uk...
> >

> > FWIW, despite all these people saying the police will descend in
> > seconds, when I last reported people on the waste ground that backs
> > onto my garden were shooting at foxes with a weapon that was
> > sufficiently powerful to kill at least one of said foxes, and that
> > some of the bullets / pellets / whatever were entering my garden where
> > I was sitting out (at least one passed me close enough I heard it
> > whistle, and then hit the house), I got fobbed off. They said they
> > were bound to be licensed pest controllers. I said I didn't care if
> > they were licensed, and I had no objection to them shooting foxes, I
> > wanted to prevent them shooting me or my daughters. They said they
> > were sure that wouldn't happen (quite how they were sure, when one
> > bullet had literally whistled past my head, I don't know).
> >
> > I did contemplate asking whether it would be OK if I returned fire,
> > but I thought better of it.
>
> lol a bullet doesn't whistle as it goes by you, it cracks!

Whatever it was, it was delivered from a shoulder-held gun-like
device, it was capable of killing a fox, and something whistled as it
went past me and made a sharp noise as it hit the house. I claim no
expertise in bullets / pellets / bbs / whatevers.

It turned out the people in question were supposed to be shooting
foxes, but not towards occupied gardens. But the police really
couldn't care less that bullets / pellets / bbs / whatevers were
entering my garden.

[GB]

Ian Smith wrote:
>
> Whatever it was, it was delivered from a shoulder-held gun-like
> device, it was capable of killing a fox, and something whistled as it
> went past me and made a sharp noise as it hit the house.

How big a hole did it make in the house?

> I claim no
> expertise in bullets / pellets / bbs / whatevers.
>
> It turned out the people in question were supposed to be shooting
> foxes, but not towards occupied gardens. But the police really
> couldn't care less that bullets / pellets / bbs / whatevers were
> entering my garden.
>
> regards, Ian SMith

--

[steve robinson]

Periander wrote:

>
> On 26-May-2012, "Partac" <any...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Not necessarily. See :
> >
> > https://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q327.htm
>
> Cool, in essence it says that a device may be a BB gun or an air
> weapon and it describes BB guns as "Toy like" and advises that BB

> guns should not be given as toys to young (their emphasis) children

> to play with.
>
> If it's any help the protected side of the site gives the same advice
> but uses longer words ... ie a BB gun is not an Air Weapon and
> advises police officers not to shoot children playing cowboys and
> indians.
>
> > I would suggest that if it is powerful enough to harm a pigeon, it
> > probably
> > comes into the 'more powerful' bracket.
>
> Where did that come from? Nowhere did the OP suggest that any pigeon
> had been harmed. Be careful of your source before leaping to
> conclusions.
>
> (Granted the OP now states that he doesn't know if the "gun" was a BB
> gun or an airweapon)

BB gun was a term bought in from the USA it fired birdshot pellets and
is designed to kill small birds , the shot size was similar to birdsot
about 4.5mm

Its very much a generic name now it is an air weapon, they an shoot
steel balls over 600fps

In the uk we seperate air weapon(pellet gun, air rifle ) and airsoft
toys calling the later BB guns however because of the influence from
accross the pond many now refer to air weapons as BB guns

Airsoft guns are toys they fire plastic pellets at a very reduced
velocity.

[Jake]

"Ian Smith" <i...@astounding.org.uk> wrote in message

news:slrnjs2j5...@acheron.astounding.org.uk...

Many years ago I lived in a slightly less desirable area and I heard these
strange sounds that sounded like they were small objects impacting the side
of the houses in our terrace at high velocity.

They were. I looked out of the window only to see a group of yoof with an
air rifle, and they adjusted the aim in my direction, and I ducked. Several
pellets came through the window and impacted the door on the other side of
the room.

The police were called, and true to form they arrived en masse, but with
sirens announcing their arrival, and the yoof scarpered into the alleyways
that ran like a rabbit warren throughout the estate.

Later that night a brick came through the front window with a message
attached suggesting in the vernacular that we leave.

Looking back, it was quite a fortuitous event as the police insisted that
the council rehouse us the next day, far away from that area and we ended up
getting a nice quiet residential street that we lived in for quite a few
years.

If not for that, we would probably still be stuck in that hole.

Fortunately it was not Leicestershire.

[Periander]

On 26-May-2012, "Ophelia" <Oph...@elsinore.me.uk> wrote:

> > But an air weapon that's used to fire steel BBs is not described as a BB
> > gun, it's described as an air weapon.
>
> As I said, it depends on who is doing the describing:)
>
> > Although the point apears moot as the OP has just said (bless 'im) that
> > he
> > can't tell the difference.
>
> Well there is that ...:)

I have two air rifles, one's zero'd for 20 yards, one for 30.
Co-incidentally I have no Gray American Tree Rats in my garden ... the wood
pigeons though are welcome as they are clearly a very respectable married
couple and wait in the queue without any attempt to push any other birds out
of the way to get at seeds and such like that drop from the feeders.

[John Briggs]

On 27/05/2012 00:15, Periander wrote:
> On 26-May-2012, "Ophelia"<Oph...@elsinore.me.uk> wrote:
>
>>> But an air weapon that's used to fire steel BBs is not described as a BB
>>> gun, it's described as an air weapon.
>>
>> As I said, it depends on who is doing the describing:)
>>
>>> Although the point apears moot as the OP has just said (bless 'im) that
>>> he
>>> can't tell the difference.
>>
>> Well there is that ...:)
>
> I have two air rifles, one's zero'd for 20 yards, one for 30.
> Co-incidentally I have no Gray American Tree Rats in my garden ...

Is there still a bounty on those?
--
John Briggs

[Janet]

In article <a2cth8...@mid.individual.net>, u...@britwar.couk says...

http://www.jrsm.rsmjournals.com/content/94/8/396.full
http://bjo.bmj.com/content/71/6/449.full.pdf

Janet

[Periander]

On 26-May-2012, Gaz <sp...@spam.com> wrote:

> only about 20 miles from home in Oxfordshire. The police were called
> again and the police gave him a choice, he could surrender his "gun" or
> face prosecution. He opted to surrender his "gun" and he handed in his
> air pistol, the armed response copper. Immediately knew that the gun he
> handed over was not the weapon used to kill the racing pigeon, but he
> reluctantly accepted and the matter was closed,

I find that very surprising, I've shot a shed load of pigeons in the past -
legally I hasten to add with bog standard air rifles (*) and the bottom line
is that at 20 yards or so a pellet from such a weapon will cause such a mes
to a pigeons heck it will virtually seperate the head from the body.

(*) Shotguns are easier but it's a bugger to get the pellets out - even
assuming there's enough left of the bird to cook.

[Periander]

On 27-May-2012, John Briggs <john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

> > I have two air rifles, one's zero'd for 20 yards, one for 30.
> > Co-incidentally I have no Gray American Tree Rats in my garden ...
>
> Is there still a bounty on those?

No but there should be ... and now for the story of the red Squirrel ... or
at least we'd have it if it would pass moderation.

[Tosspot]

Only if it's still moving supersonic. I've had a couple of 9mm rounds ricochet
and they whine on the way by. Fwiw, I'd be unhappy about a .22 pellet anywhere
near me at less than 50ft.

[GB]

Kim Bolton wrote:
> Continuing the pedantry, an assassination weapon such as the Welrod

The Welrod, despite being a 1940's design, is said still to be classified.
(That may be an urban myth, of course.)

[GB]

Gaz wrote:
> Anyway
> the bloke has since run off with another woman, so it aint our
> problem anymore.

This is much better than Eastenders. First the secret service silenced
weapons, now this! :)

[Ophelia]

"Periander" <u...@britwar.couk> wrote in message

news:a2cv85...@mid.individual.net...

The bullet might be past you by the time you register the noise but you
actually hear it as it passes. Hubby says one of their techniques for
locating an enemy was to listen for the 'crack and thump'. the crack as the
bullet passes, the thump from the shot being fired. the time between the two
gives you an estimate of the distance to the firer. Of course if the bullet
hits you, you probably never hear either! If these guys were shooting foxes
and *were* professional pest controllers we would have expected them to be
using something like a .222/.223, so quite high velocity, even if using a
moderator to limit the bang at the muzzle. we also would have expected them
to be a damn sight more careful about their backstop! So there ya go! He is
military, I am just a sporting shooter:)
--
--

http://www.shop.helpforheroes.org.uk/

[AnthonyL]

On Sat, 26 May 2012 14:50:03 +0100, "GB" <NOTso...@microsoft.com>
wrote:

>
>This being a country district, could they use a bird scarer?
>

Oh brilliant yea! I live in a nice rural village, generally fairly
quiet except for a massive 3 or 4 shot salvo every 2-3 hours which
echoes of the hill behind and rattles windows.

The pigeons flutter around for a few minutes then land again.


--
AnthonyL

[GB]

I was just pointing out the advantages of them just using BB guns. :)

[Ophelia]

"Periander" <u...@britwar.couk> wrote in message

news:a2d95g...@mid.individual.net...

lol you could try:)
--
--

http://www.shop.helpforheroes.org.uk/

[steve robinson]

Ophelia wrote:

>
>
> "Periander" <u...@britwar.couk> wrote in message
> news:a2cv85...@mid.individual.net...
> >
> >On 26-May-2012, "Ophelia" <Oph...@elsinore.me.uk> wrote:
> >
> > > lol a bullet doesn't whistle as it goes by you, it cracks!
> >
> > Now to be really pedantic (grin) assuming you're within effective
> > range, the ammunition hasn't been nerfed or the weapon likewise -
> > say in the case of a low power round firing through a silenced
> > weapon you don't hear the "crack" until it's long past you :-)
>
> The bullet might be past you by the time you register the noise but
> you actually hear it as it passes. Hubby says one of their techniques
> for locating an enemy was to listen for the 'crack and thump'. the
> crack as the bullet passes, the thump from the shot being fired. the
> time between the two gives you an estimate of the distance to the
> firer. Of course if the bullet hits you, you probably never hear

> either! If these guys were shooting foxes and were professional pest

> controllers we would have expected them to be using something like a
> .222/.223, so quite high velocity, even if using a moderator to limit
> the bang at the muzzle. we also would have expected them to be a damn
> sight more careful about their backstop! So there ya go! He is
> military, I am just a sporting shooter:)

If a bullet passes close by you at supersonic speed you can if the
round is fast enough here three not two bangs/ cracks/ thumps 1 from
air disturbance refelections from surounding structures 2 from the
impact on the surrounding structure 3 from the initial firing.

[Ian Smith]

On Sun, 27 May 2012 08:55:02 +0100, Tosspot <Frank...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 26/05/12 21:10, Ophelia wrote:
> > "Ian Smith" <i...@astounding.org.uk> wrote in message
> > news:slrnjs27g...@acheron.astounding.org.uk...
> >>

> >> FWIW, despite all these people saying the police will descend in
> >> seconds, when I last reported people on the waste ground that
> >> backs onto my garden were shooting at foxes with a weapon that
> >> was sufficiently powerful to kill at least one of said foxes, and
> >> that some of the bullets / pellets / whatever were entering my
> >> garden where I was sitting out (at least one passed me close
> >> enough I heard it whistle, and then hit the house), I got fobbed
> >> off.
> >>

> >> I did contemplate asking whether it would be OK if I returned
> >> fire, but I thought better of it.
> >
> > lol a bullet doesn't whistle as it goes by you, it cracks!
>
> Only if it's still moving supersonic. I've had a couple of 9mm
> rounds ricochet and they whine on the way by. Fwiw, I'd be unhappy
> about a .22 pellet anywhere near me at less than 50ft.

I don't want to be hit by a bullet / pellet / whatever that has
ricocheted nearly as much as I don't want to be hit by one that
hasn't. The police weren't bothered, which was the point of my
observation - people were shooting guns and causing projectiles to fly
into my garden, where I was, and the police didn't care, and certainly
didn't visit the location, despite the assurances from those here that
they will descend in force in seconds.

[Periander]

On 27-May-2012, Kim Bolton <nos...@all.invalid> wrote:

> Let's say the round has a velocity of 1500 ft/s, and misses the
> subject by 3'. The Mach cone angle is given by sin(1100/1500 or ~47
> degrees, so the round will be 3/tan47 or just over 2.8' behind (and 3'
> to one side) of the subject when he hears the sound from it; this
> assumes the speed of sound in air is reasonably constant

I'm in lust ... sorry I meant "love", a lady who can do maths ... leave your
husband now and live in sin with me - say's I with a very cheeky grin on my
face

Lets see if that gets through moderation :-)

[Ophelia]

"Ian Smith" <i...@astounding.org.uk> wrote in message

news:slrnjs439...@acheron.astounding.org.uk...

If this is true it is a damned disgrace. To whom would one complain??
Periander?
--
--

http://www.shop.helpforheroes.org.uk/

[Periander]

On 27-May-2012, Janet <H...@invalid.net> wrote:

> >
> > > A toy which is capable of causing serious injury to a human being, as
> > > evidenced by the hospital admission statistics.
> > >
> > > I find it hard to believe that something capable of hospitalising a
> > > human is harmless to a pigeon.
> >
> > Well yes OK you win, hit the poor thing in the eye and it'll squeal like
> > a
> > stuck pig but the chances of achieving that sort of hit at more than a
> > few
> > feet with a BB gun are akin to the odds of winning the lottery.
> >
> > BTW I googled "hospital admission statistics bb gun uk" and drew a
> > blank.
> > Certainly a few hits via google described air gun injuries but once I
> > drilled down nothing about BB guns. Perhaps if you have the time you
> > could
> > point me at your source, I'd be genuinely interested.

Cheers!

> http://www.jrsm.rsmjournals.com/content/94/8/396.full

Three (BB) eye injuries over a period of 10 years - only two of which
required immediate treatment. I suspect that more people seek treatment a
week because a fly has hit them in the eye. I'm surprised, even though I
consider these toys to be "safe" I'd have expected more eye injuries.

> http://bjo.bmj.com/content/71/6/449.full.pdf

Have you got the right link? This report relates to shotgun injuries.

[Periander]

On 27-May-2012, Kim Bolton <nos...@all.invalid> wrote:

> It can be seen that this has nothing to do with silencers or low-power
> rounds, it merely depends on the speed of the round.

Assuming my other post gets through moderation please accept a little
addendum ... I used that example to illustrate why a bullet may be traveling
at less than supersonic speeds, as you quite rightly point out using perhaps
the best example ever the Welrod discharged its round subsonicaly.

I'm still in love with the maths :-)

[steve robinson]

Another maths question (probability)

[Janet]

In article <a2el82...@mid.individual.net>, u...@britwar.couk says...

and BB gun injuries. Scroll on.

"BB-gun injuries to the eye have been
reported (a BB-gun is an air rifle that shoots
pellets).2 I Bowen and Magauran4 reported 105 cases
of ocular injuries caused by airgun pellets."

"References
Brown GC, Tasman WS, Benson WE. BB-gun injuries to the eye.
Ophthalmic Surg 1985; 16: 505-8.

3 Kreshon MJ. Eye injuries due to BB-Guns. Ophthalmology
(Rochester) 1964; 58: 858-61."

Janet

[Periander]

On 27-May-2012, "Ophelia" <Oph...@elsinore.me.uk> wrote:

> If this is true it is a damned disgrace. To whom would one complain??
> Periander?

Sorry, no use complaining to me even if it'd been me shooting those foxes I
doubt that I'd have missed by that much. Not that I've fired anything other
than an airweapon for the best pat of 20 years :-)

[Periander]

On 27-May-2012, Janet <H...@invalid.net> wrote:

> > Have you got the right link? This report relates to shotgun injuries.
>
> and BB gun injuries. Scroll on.
>
> "BB-gun injuries to the eye have been
> reported (a BB-gun is an air rifle that shoots
> pellets).2 I Bowen and Magauran4 reported 105 cases
> of ocular injuries caused by airgun pellets."

Humm ... now if I was a shooter (which for the sake of clarity I'm not) and
if I were to confuse the retina and the cornea that may well be forgivable,
but the same token it's reasonable to excuse an opthamologist for confusing
a BB gun and an airgun that's been loaded with BB ... the previous study you
pointed to found only discovered 3 BB injuries in 10 years ... I suspect
that there's methodology/comprehension issue as the quote above certainly
refers to airgun injuries.

Still I'm interested now and I know a forensic opthamologist or two so I'll
have an ask around.

[Ophelia]

"Periander" <u...@britwar.couk> wrote in message

news:a2f17s...@mid.individual.net...

>
> Humm ... now if I was a shooter (which for the sake of clarity I'm not)
> and
> if I were to confuse the retina and the cornea that may well be
> forgivable,
> but the same token it's reasonable to excuse an opthamologist for
> confusing
> a BB gun and an airgun that's been loaded with BB ... the previous study
> you
> pointed to found only discovered 3 BB injuries in 10 years ... I suspect
> that there's methodology/comprehension issue as the quote above certainly
> refers to airgun injuries.
>
> Still I'm interested now and I know a forensic opthamologist or two so
> I'll
> have an ask around.

Do report back?

--
--

http://www.shop.helpforheroes.org.uk/

[Ophelia]

"Periander" <u...@britwar.couk> wrote in message

news:a2et27...@mid.individual.net...

Hmmm I was hoping you could point the poster to the relevant place ... as
you well know *glare*
--
--

http://www.shop.helpforheroes.org.uk/

[Periander]

On 27-May-2012, "Ophelia" <Oph...@elsinore.me.uk> wrote:

> >> If this is true it is a damned disgrace. To whom would one complain??
> >> Periander?
> >
> > Sorry, no use complaining to me even if it'd been me shooting those
> > foxes
> > I
> > doubt that I'd have missed by that much. Not that I've fired anything
> > other
> > than an airweapon for the best pat of 20 years :-)
>
> Hmmm I was hoping you could point the poster to the relevant place ... as
>
> you well know *glare*

I get shouted at by answering people's hidden questions and now I'm shouted
at for being literal. It's a hard life being a man, please pass on my most
heartfelt sympathies to your no doubt long suffering husband :-)

The PP is advised to ring his local police station and ask to speak with the
"Duty Officer" (usually an officer of Inspector rank currently on duty and
responsible for the local police area), if there's no response within an
agreed time frame - which of course could be 10 minutes on a slack day to
"the next time I'm on duty" if (s)he's rushed of his feet then he is advised
to call the headquarters (numbers on the web) of his local police force and
ask for the force complaints department.

There ... happy now?

[Ophelia]

"Periander" <u...@britwar.couk> wrote in message

news:a2f4jg...@mid.individual.net...

>
> On 27-May-2012, "Ophelia" <Oph...@elsinore.me.uk> wrote:
>
>> >> If this is true it is a damned disgrace. To whom would one complain??
>> >> Periander?
>> >
>> > Sorry, no use complaining to me even if it'd been me shooting those
>> > foxes
>> > I
>> > doubt that I'd have missed by that much. Not that I've fired anything
>> > other
>> > than an airweapon for the best pat of 20 years :-)
>>
>> Hmmm I was hoping you could point the poster to the relevant place ...
>> as
>>
>> you well know *glare*
>
> I get shouted at by answering people's hidden questions and now I'm
> shouted
> at for being literal. It's a hard life being a man, please pass on my most
> heartfelt sympathies to your no doubt long suffering husband :-)

;o)

> The PP is advised to ring his local police station and ask to speak with
> the
> "Duty Officer" (usually an officer of Inspector rank currently on duty and
> responsible for the local police area), if there's no response within an
> agreed time frame - which of course could be 10 minutes on a slack day to
> "the next time I'm on duty" if (s)he's rushed of his feet then he is
> advised
> to call the headquarters (numbers on the web) of his local police force
> and
> ask for the force complaints department.
>
> There ... happy now?

I am indeed! Thankewerymuch young fell me lad!!!

--
--

http://www.shop.helpforheroes.org.uk/

[the Omrud]

On 27/05/2012 13:20, Periander wrote:
> On 27-May-2012, Kim Bolton<nos...@all.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Let's say the round has a velocity of 1500 ft/s, and misses the
>> subject by 3'. The Mach cone angle is given by sin(1100/1500 or ~47
>> degrees, so the round will be 3/tan47 or just over 2.8' behind (and 3'
>> to one side) of the subject when he hears the sound from it; this
>> assumes the speed of sound in air is reasonably constant
>
> I'm in lust ... sorry I meant "love", a lady who can do maths ... leave your
> husband now and live in sin with me - say's I with a very cheeky grin on my
> face

1. Is it established that Kim is a girl? I've known men named Kim, as
per Rudyard Kipling and that game we used to play at Cubs.

2. I'm married to a mathematician and no, you can't have her.

--
David

[Judith]

On Fri, 25 May 2012 18:10:03 +0100, "TTman" <pcw1...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

>The complaining neighbour has now resorted to firing a BB gun at the pigeons
>that like sitting in our trees at the bottom of our garden. I can only
>presume that the council have told them to stop throwing stones ( which they
>seem to have done). They still continue to bang on their metal dustbin lid,
>their wheelbarrow and slam their garden shed door in an attempt to scare
>away the pigeons, which it does, momentarily.
>Such a pain given that we live in a peaceful rural area. :(
>So are they breaking any laws ? Endangering wildlife? Illegal use of a BB
>gun ? ( by firing onto/over our property ?) Seems pretty futile to me,
>unless they actually hit an ingure on of the birds with a 'lucky' shot. In
>that case, I'd be straight onto the RSPCA.
>No retaliation planned, I'd just like to know if he's breaking any laws so
>it can be documented for later.
>TIA


I trust you realise that you will have to announce the problems with your noisy
neighbours if and when you come to sell your property :-)

[Man at B&Q]

On May 26, 3:55 pm, Jethro_uk <jethro...@hotmailbin.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 26 May 2012 08:35:01 +0100, TTman wrote:
> > "GB" <NOTsome...@microsoft.com> wrote in message
> >news:4fc00554$0$7321$5b6a...@news.zen.co.uk...
> >>> Pigeons are looked upon as vermin
>
> >> Is there a particular reason for wanting to encourage them?
>
> > No, we actively discourage them by NOT putting out any food that they
> > will eat...or get at.
> > They seem quite happy picking grit off our concrete drive. What they get
> > out of that I have no idea.
>
> ISTR that a lot of birds eat grit or sand to aid digestion ...

We specifically feed it to our chickens, mixed in with their corn.

MBQ

[Martin Bonner]

On Saturday, 26 May 2012 21:50:02 UTC+1, Periander wrote:
> On 26-May-2012, "Partac" <any...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Not necessarily. See :
> > https://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q327.htm
>
> If it's any help the protected side of the site gives the same advice but
> uses longer words ... ie a BB gun is not an Air Weapon and


> advises police
> officers not to shoot children playing cowboys and indians.

It's good to know that the advice is so sensible.
(Why is it necessary?)

[Periander]

Just me being TIC, albeit I do have access to the subscription side of the
PNLD

[GB]

> I do have access to the subscription side
> of the PNLD

I have just discovered that anyone can buy a day pass for £11.

[Periander]

On 28-May-2012, "GB" <NOTso...@microsoft.com> wrote:

> > I do have access to the subscription side
> > of the PNLD
>
> I have just discovered that anyone can buy a day pass for £11.

I'd say that this form of payment isn't all that useful - its quite
idisyncratic - think of the target audiance, you may find that your local
library carries a subscription.

[TTman]

>
>
> I trust you realise that you will have to announce the problems with your
> noisy
> neighbours if and when you come to sell your property :-)
>
>

No, because we have never complained to anyone (council or them directly)
about that, so there is no 'dispute'.
If we knew they were running a 'house of ill repute' nextdoor, but never
told anyone, should we disclose that to a potential purchaser too ?

[Periander]

On 28-May-2012, "TTman" <pcw1...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

> If we knew they were running a 'house of ill repute' nextdoor, but never
> told anyone, should we disclose that to a potential purchaser too ?

Might add a few quid to the price of your house.

[Judith]

On Sun, 27 May 2012 00:35:02 +0100, John Briggs <john.b...@ntlworld.com>
wrote:

>On 27/05/2012 00:15, Periander wrote:
>> On 26-May-2012, "Ophelia"<Oph...@elsinore.me.uk> wrote:
>>

>>>> But an air weapon that's used to fire steel BBs is not described as a BB
>>>> gun, it's described as an air weapon.
>>>
>>> As I said, it depends on who is doing the describing:)
>>>
>>>> Although the point apears moot as the OP has just said (bless 'im) that
>>>> he
>>>> can't tell the difference.
>>>
>>> Well there is that ...:)

>>
>> I have two air rifles, one's zero'd for 20 yards, one for 30.
>> Co-incidentally I have no Gray American Tree Rats in my garden ...
>
>Is there still a bounty on those?

"when I was a lass...."

1953 - First anti-grey squirrel propaganda on Radio 4’s The Archers. An
experimental bonus system introduced to complement squirrel clubs; one shilling
or two free cartridges paid per grey squirrel tail. The bounty is raised to two
shillings in 1956. 1,520,304 grey squirrel bounties paid in five years with no
effect on grey squirrel numbers. The system is abandoned in 1958.


http://www.greysquirrelcontrol.co.uk/history-of-control.php

[Judith]

Totally OT

I am reading "17 Equations which changed the world" at the moment - looks
promising - but too early to say.

From the legal point of view, I hope it will discuss Newton's law of cooling.

[Tim Jackson]

On Mon, 28 May 2012 19:10:02 +0100, Judith wrote...

> Totally OT
>
> I am reading "17 Equations which changed the world" at the moment - looks
> promising - but too early to say.
>
> From the legal point of view, I hope it will discuss Newton's law of cooling.

Or Boyle's Law: Watt's pots never boyle.

Or the Planck relation: E = h * nu, where E is energy, nu is Planck's
constant, and h is the thickness of the planck.

--
Tim Jackson
ne...@timjackson.invalid
(Change '.invalid' to '.plus.com' to reply direct)

[GB]

My £11 is firmly in my pocket. :)

[TTman]

"Periander" <u...@britwar.couk> wrote in message

news:a2hp1c...@mid.individual.net...

Just received notification from the council......I quote:-
The case is now closed and we will no longer be monitoring the complaint of
'excess pigeons'.

Result!. The neighbour can moan as much as he/she likes and the council are
not going to listen.

Thanks to all above who contributed to an interesting thread.

Martin S

[Ian Smith]

On Sun, 27 May 2012 18:00:03 +0100, Periander <u...@britwar.couk> wrote:
>
> The PP is advised to ring his local police station and ask to speak
> with the "Duty Officer" (usually an officer of Inspector rank
> currently on duty and responsible for the local police area), if
> there's no response within an agreed time frame - which of course
> could be 10 minutes on a slack day to "the next time I'm on duty"
> if (s)he's rushed of his feet then he is advised to call the
> headquarters (numbers on the web) of his local police force and ask
> for the force complaints department.

My local police station shut down about three months ago. The next
closest (in the next town - 4 or 5 miles away) shut down six months
before that. I have no idea where the nearest police station that
hasn't been shut is. I've got a leaflet somewhere - I'm supposed to
ring 999 if it's an immediate emergency, or a call centre if it isn't.
I've no idea where the call centre is. It's the call centre who
weren't bothered about the shooting incident.

Last time I had a complaint with the police (which was actually the
only time I'd had a complaint with the police, and was five years ago)
actually writing or talking to any of them got me nowhere. Writing a
letter to the local newspaper (which headlined on their letters page)
got a response in the newspaper from a Superintendent. In the
newspaper the superintendent says they "would like to apologise to Mr
Smith for any delay in keeping him informed with the progress of our
investigation" .. falls short of the standards ... customer service
... committed to investigating crime ... enquiries continuing ...
blaah blaah.

Neither he nor anyone else wrote, telephoned, or spoke to me however -
so they'll put their spin in the newspapers, but not even do what
their spin says they want to do. The local newspaper got their
comment from the Superintendent, I got zilch - sorry that's not true -
I got a copy of the 'record of interview at scene' for what the
policeman extracted from me while I was in the ambulance and that's
it.

Since then I had a laptop stolen - police not bothered. I hadn't seen
the thief taking it, so they wouldn't record it as stolen, wouldn't
log a crime, it was recorded as 'lost'. (Eventually turned up in a
drug-dealers house, and 18 months later they got round to returning it
to me, after wiping all my data from the hard disk, though it still
had it on when they recovered the laptop).

Then people are shooting and projectiles are entering my garden. I
phone the police, police not bothered - they are sure it's fine, they
are sure I won't be hit.

Once upon a time, I was one of those who thought the police do a fine
job dealing with all those yobbos and so on. I've since become one of
those from whom they've lost all respect. My experience is that
they'll apparently do anything to avoid anything being a crime.
They'd rather look the other way, presumably so it doesn't get in the
statistics. The police clearly don't want to be bothered, crime mucks
up their routine, presumably. I used to hand stuff I'd found in the
street in (obviously I couldn't do that even if I wanted to now, not
knowing an open police station in my force's area), I used to report
suspicious behaviour (I saw a chap changing the number plates on his
car in a lay-by once and made a note of both before and after
numbers). I wouldn't now. They don't want to know, I've given up
bothering them - it doesn't do any good.

Thus - phone up my local (ha) police station and complain (ha ha).
I don't think so. But thanks for the laugh.

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|

[Lordgnome]

"Ian Smith" <i...@astounding.org.uk> wrote in message
news:slrnjsaaa...@acheron.astounding.org.uk...

> On Sun, 27 May 2012 18:00:03 +0100, Periander <u...@britwar.couk> wrote:
>>

> Long story snipped....

> Thus - phone up my local (ha) police station and complain (ha ha).
> I don't think so. But thanks for the laugh.
>
> regards, Ian SMith

Just watch out though, if you are noticed slightly exceeding the speed limit
;-)

Les.