Driving licence, moving overseas

[Nogood Boyo]

GOV.UK says "If you're moving abroad, you can't register your new address on
your British driving licence. Contact the driving licence authority in your
new country of residence."

I can't find anything requiring the UK licence to be surrendered. Is there
any reason why the UK licence shouldn't be retained with the UK address of,
eg, a parent or a property owned in the UK but being let during the overseas
residence?

Would a licence showing such a UK address be valid in another member state
or in the UK during returns home?

Are there any insurance implications?

--
Nogood Boyo

[Mark Goodge]

On Sun, 21 Feb 2016 19:12:36 -0000, "Nogood Boyo" <use...@bwllfa.co.uk> put
finger to keyboard and typed:

>GOV.UK says "If you're moving abroad, you can't register your new address on
>your British driving licence. Contact the driving licence authority in your
>new country of residence."
>
>I can't find anything requiring the UK licence to be surrendered. Is there
>any reason why the UK licence shouldn't be retained with the UK address of,
>eg, a parent or a property owned in the UK but being let during the overseas
>residence?

The address on your licence has to be your current residential address. So
no, you can't use any form of accomodation address on it.

If you retain a primary residential address in the UK (eg, if you have a
holiday home in the South of France where you spend the winter, but come
home in summer) then you don't need to change the licence. The same applies
if you're merely outside the UK temporarily (eg, on contract work). But if
you've left the UK permanently then your licence will become invalid.

>Would a licence showing such a UK address be valid in another member state
>or in the UK during returns home?

No.

>Are there any insurance implications?

Yes. Your insurance will be void. So not only will the insurer not pay out
in the event of a claim, you may be liable for prosecution for not having
valid insurance.

Mark
--
Insert random witticism here
http://www.markgoodge.com

[Pelican]

"Mark Goodge" <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote in message
news:smelcbpcfq1gv486h...@news.markshouse.net...

> On Sun, 21 Feb 2016 19:12:36 -0000, "Nogood Boyo" <use...@bwllfa.co.uk>
> put
> finger to keyboard and typed:
>
>>GOV.UK says "If you're moving abroad, you can't register your new address
>>on
>>your British driving licence. Contact the driving licence authority in
>>your
>>new country of residence."
>>
>>I can't find anything requiring the UK licence to be surrendered. Is there
>>any reason why the UK licence shouldn't be retained with the UK address
>>of,
>>eg, a parent or a property owned in the UK but being let during the
>>overseas
>>residence?
>
> The address on your licence has to be your current residential address. So
> no, you can't use any form of accomodation address on it.
>
> If you retain a primary residential address in the UK (eg, if you have a
> holiday home in the South of France where you spend the winter, but come
> home in summer) then you don't need to change the licence. The same
> applies
> if you're merely outside the UK temporarily (eg, on contract work). But if
> you've left the UK permanently then your licence will become invalid.

If that is legally correct, does it have any practical effect if and when
the licence is provided outside the UK? It's just another licence.

>>Would a licence showing such a UK address be valid in another member state
>>or in the UK during returns home?
>
> No.

Ditto.

I understand the reasons why you give those answers, but it seems to be
arguable on the law, and a bit dubious to say the least in reality.

>>Are there any insurance implications?
>
> Yes. Your insurance will be void. So not only will the insurer not pay out
> in the event of a claim, you may be liable for prosecution for not having
> valid insurance.

Is it correct that the insurance will be void? It may depend on the T&C of
the policy, and whether the insurer comes to know of the true state of play.

[David Postill]

In article <diughi...@mid.individual.net>, on Sun, 21 Feb 2016

You're supposed to exchange your UK licence for a local licence after some
periond of time (in the EU at least). I swapped my UK licence for a Dutch
one when I Lived in Holland. There was a small admin charge and you have
to surrender your UK Licence.

http://www.expatica.com/nl/visas-and-permits/How-to-get-a-Dutch-drivers-licence_100813.html

To exchange (omwissel) your existing national driving license (rijbewijs)
for a Dutch one, you must fit into one of the categories below. Otherwise
you can use it for 185 days after arrival after which you must pass the
regular CBR theory and driving tests (available in English but you may
need to pay extra).

So you can use your UK licence for 185 days. After that you have to take a
test.

It's easier as a UK citizen to just swap the licence (before 185 days), in
which you get issued with a Dutch licence and no test is needed.

Which reminds me, now I'm back in the UK I should look into swapping it
back.
--
David Postill

[okno]

What happened when the insurer was told of the move abroad? It's
obvious that the enquiry was made, but the answer was not positive.

[Robin Bignall]

On Sun, 21 Feb 2016 19:12:36 -0000, "Nogood Boyo" <use...@bwllfa.co.uk>
wrote:

>GOV.UK says "If you're moving abroad, you can't register your new address on
>your British driving licence. Contact the driving licence authority in your
>new country of residence."
>
>I can't find anything requiring the UK licence to be surrendered. Is there
>any reason why the UK licence shouldn't be retained with the UK address of,
>eg, a parent or a property owned in the UK but being let during the overseas
>residence?
>

I went to live in France when we joined the Common Market. The rules
might have changed, but in those days your British licence was valid for
3 years, and then you had to exchange it for a French licence (straight
swap, no driving test).

>Would a licence showing such a UK address be valid in another member state
>or in the UK during returns home?
>

For 3 years, I think.

>Are there any insurance implications?

Oh yes. If you live abroad you need to be insured in the country of
residence. I doubt that the 3 years applies to insurance, and your
normal British insurance, when providing cover in EU countries, assumes
that you live in Britain and are just abroad for a short time. I'd most
def contact your insurance broker. They might have contacts in your new
country that could help you get established there.
--
Robin Bignall
Herts, England

[Roland Perry]

In message <naego3$m3g$1...@dont-email.me>, at 19:29:39 on Mon, 22 Feb
2016, Pelican <water...@sea.somewhere.org.ir> remarked:

>> If you retain a primary residential address in the UK (eg, if you have a
>> holiday home in the South of France where you spend the winter, but come
>> home in summer) then you don't need to change the licence. The same
>>applies
>> if you're merely outside the UK temporarily (eg, on contract work). But if
>> you've left the UK permanently then your licence will become invalid.
>
>If that is legally correct, does it have any practical effect if and
>when the licence is provided outside the UK? It's just another licence.

Most places will want you to take a local driving test and get a local
licence. That can include the authorities there confiscating the UK
licence. (If the other place is in the EU it may not be very difficult
to trade your UK one in for a local one, but outside it could involve
taking a test.)

>>>Would a licence showing such a UK address be valid in another member state
>>>or in the UK during returns home?
>>
>> No.
>
>Ditto.
>
>I understand the reasons why you give those answers, but it seems to be
>arguable on the law, and a bit dubious to say the least in reality.

Now that driving licences are widely used as "Government issued photo
ID", then it's even more important they have a correct address on them.

>>>Are there any insurance implications?
>>
>> Yes. Your insurance will be void. So not only will the insurer not pay out
>> in the event of a claim, you may be liable for prosecution for not having
>> valid insurance.
>
>Is it correct that the insurance will be void? It may depend on the
>T&C of the policy, and

The T&C will say you have to hold a valid licence. But if you've got one
from your new place of residence, use that.

>whether the insurer comes to know of the true state of play.

That'll happen when a claim is made.
--
Roland Perry

[Nogood Boyo]

"Mark Goodge" <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote in message
news:smelcbpcfq1gv486h...@news.markshouse.net...

Thanks, those are the things I was worried about but I can't find anything
to that effect on GOV.UK or elsewhere. Can you please point to something
official / authoritative?

--
Nogood Boyo

[|||new...@nezumi.demon.co.uk]

On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 7:51:52 AM UTC, Mark Goodge wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Feb 2016 19:12:36 -0000, "Nogood Boyo" <use...@bwllfa.co.uk> put
> finger to keyboard and typed:
>
> >GOV.UK says "If you're moving abroad, you can't register your new address on
> >your British driving licence. Contact the driving licence authority in your
> >new country of residence."
> >
> >I can't find anything requiring the UK licence to be surrendered. Is there
> >any reason why the UK licence shouldn't be retained with the UK address of,
> >eg, a parent or a property owned in the UK but being let during the overseas
> >residence?
>
> The address on your licence has to be your current residential address. So
> no, you can't use any form of accomodation address on it.

Although lots of people do this. ISTR you get 6 (or 12) months grace in your new location before you have to obtain a local driving license from the authorities. In Japan this includes taking the practical driving test which is hilarious since it is done on a standardised road layout with no other traffic about the size of a cricket pitch complete with hump back bridge.

We nearly messed this up and were within the last week of our gratis period when HR remembered we needed to take a local driving test! Fortunately our Japanese was just about up to it by then. Remembering that a "green" traffic light is "blue" in Japanese was the key!

Persuading a UK Avis desk to accept a Japanese drivers license was an exercise in futility so we usually proffered our UK licenses that they could read.

> If you retain a primary residential address in the UK (eg, if you have a
> holiday home in the South of France where you spend the winter, but come
> home in summer) then you don't need to change the licence. The same applies
> if you're merely outside the UK temporarily (eg, on contract work). But if
> you've left the UK permanently then your licence will become invalid.

This was temporary secondment but for long enough that we had to obtain local driving licenses (in Belgium ISTR it was a straight swap - they issued an EU license and kept out UK ones). In Japan it was in addition to our UK one.

> >Would a licence showing such a UK address be valid in another member state
> >or in the UK during returns home?
>
> No.

Interesting. Almost everyone I knew broke the law then. I am pretty sure it is valid for the first six or twelve months residence depending on local laws.

How do you go on as a UK drivers license holder when you are seconded to a banana republic that doesn't confer any reciprocal right to drive in the UK?

> >Are there any insurance implications?
>
> Yes. Your insurance will be void. So not only will the insurer not pay out
> in the event of a claim, you may be liable for prosecution for not having
> valid insurance.

You also have to get your insurers to provide you with a letter stating your accumulated no claims entitlement if you want to preserve it across a (long) gap working overseas. This allows you to carry it forward on your return.

Otherwise you have to start from zero again.

Regards,
Martin Brown

[Roland Perry]

In message <hlhkcbhppot37gr61...@4ax.com>, at 23:29:33 on
Sun, 21 Feb 2016, David Postill <david....@gmail.com> remarked:

>You're supposed to exchange your UK licence for a local licence after some
>periond of time (in the EU at least). I swapped my UK licence for a Dutch
>one when I Lived in Holland. There was a small admin charge and you have
>to surrender your UK Licence.
>
>http://www.expatica.com/nl/visas-and-permits/How-to-get-a-Dutch-drivers-licence_100813.html
>
>To exchange (omwissel) your existing national driving license (rijbewijs)
>for a Dutch one, you must fit into one of the categories below. Otherwise
>you can use it for 185 days after arrival after which you must pass the
>regular CBR theory and driving tests (available in English but you may
>need to pay extra).
>
>So you can use your UK licence for 185 days. After that you have to take a
>test.
>
>It's easier as a UK citizen to just swap the licence (before 185 days), in
>which you get issued with a Dutch licence and no test is needed.

Here's the procedure for New York State

http://dmv.ny.gov/driver-license/drive-new-york-state

which is broadly the same across the USA. Although I happen to know the
time period in California is as little as 10 days. Note how US states
regard other US states as "foreign places" for these purposes.

One of the gotchas in the US system is that you generally need to
produce a Social Security number to qualify for a licence, and those
will typically take over 30 days to arrive if you just became a
permanent resident from overseas.
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <dj03t4...@mid.individual.net>, at 09:49:29 on Mon, 22
Feb 2016, Nogood Boyo <use...@bwllfa.co.uk> remarked:

>>>Are there any insurance implications?
>>
>> Yes. Your insurance will be void. So not only will the insurer not pay out
>> in the event of a claim, you may be liable for prosecution for not having
>> valid insurance.
>>
>Thanks, those are the things I was worried about but I can't find anything
>to that effect on GOV.UK or elsewhere. Can you please point to something
>official / authoritative?

Your insurance policy will include the bit about needing a valid
licence, and for a UK licence to be valid it must have your residential
address (overseas ones not allowed).
--
Roland Perry

[Tim Watts]

If you do that: swap out of the UK then swap back in, do you get the
grandfathered categories back (eg 7.5 ton lorries for those of us who
passed the test pre-whenever)?

[Robin]

Roland Perry wrote:
> Your insurance policy will include the bit about needing a valid
> licence, and for a UK licence to be valid it must have your
> residential address (overseas ones not allowed).

I may be misunderstanding what you mean by "for a UK licence to be valid
it must have your residential address" but AIUI - which may of course be
wrongly - the offence of failing to notify a change of address (which
attracts a fine of up to £1,000) neither invalidates the licence nor
attracts points which might lead to disqualification. I CBA'd to plough
through the regs but there there was much publicity around this a couple
of years ago (in connection with people failing to update photo licences
etc) with statements such as

"Rob Miles, head of motor at Direct Line, said: 'British motorists have
a duty to update the DVLA of any change of name or address or of any
medical condition that could affect their ability to drive, but it seems
that many motorists simply don't realise they are breaking the terms of
their licence.'

'Millions of drivers have an old name or address on their driving
licence, and while this won't affect their car insurance cover, having
incorrect information on their licence puts them at risk of a large fine
if their licence is ever checked by the police. "


[1]
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-2337363/Could-fined-1-000-invalid-driving-licence.html

--
Robin
reply to address is (meant to be) valid

[Roger Hayter]

Normally policies say something along the lines of "holds or has held
and is not disqualified from holding" a licence. It is address of
residence and where the car is kept that is likely to affect the
validity of the insurance rather then the driver's licence.

--

Roger Hayter

[Pelican]

"Roland Perry" <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote in message
news:zflD95wv...@perry.co.uk...

> In message <naego3$m3g$1...@dont-email.me>, at 19:29:39 on Mon, 22 Feb 2016,
> Pelican <water...@sea.somewhere.org.ir> remarked:
>
>>> If you retain a primary residential address in the UK (eg, if you have a
>>> holiday home in the South of France where you spend the winter, but come
>>> home in summer) then you don't need to change the licence. The same
>>> applies
>>> if you're merely outside the UK temporarily (eg, on contract work). But
>>> if
>>> you've left the UK permanently then your licence will become invalid.
>>
>>If that is legally correct, does it have any practical effect if and when
>>the licence is provided outside the UK? It's just another licence.
>
> Most places will want you to take a local driving test and get a local
> licence. That can include the authorities there confiscating the UK
> licence. (If the other place is in the EU it may not be very difficult to
> trade your UK one in for a local one, but outside it could involve taking
> a test.)

No doubt. But the question appears to be asked in the context of the local
authorities not knowing that the person was anything other than (say) a
visitor. It's deception, and not very complicated.

>>>>Would a licence showing such a UK address be valid in another member
>>>>state
>>>>or in the UK during returns home?
>>>
>>> No.
>>
>>Ditto.
>>
>>I understand the reasons why you give those answers, but it seems to be
>>arguable on the law, and a bit dubious to say the least in reality.
>
> Now that driving licences are widely used as "Government issued photo ID",
> then it's even more important they have a correct address on them.

Quite so. But is is something that is easily enforceable?

>>>>Are there any insurance implications?
>>>
>>> Yes. Your insurance will be void. So not only will the insurer not pay
>>> out
>>> in the event of a claim, you may be liable for prosecution for not
>>> having
>>> valid insurance.
>>
>>Is it correct that the insurance will be void? It may depend on the T&C
>>of the policy, and
>
> The T&C will say you have to hold a valid licence. But if you've got one
> from your new place of residence, use that.
>
>>whether the insurer comes to know of the true state of play.
>
> That'll happen when a claim is made.

Not necessarily. This is apparently an exercise in deception.

[RobertL]

On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 7:51:52 AM UTC, Mark Goodge wrote:

> On Sun, 21 Feb 2016 19:12:36 -0000, "Nogood Boyo" <use...@bwllfa.co.uk> put

> .... Is there

> >any reason why the UK licence shouldn't be retained with the UK address of,
> >eg, a parent or a property owned in the UK but being let during the overseas
> >residence?
>
> The address on your licence has to be your current residential address. So
> no, you can't use any form of accomodation address on it.

What happens for people who have no fixed address? I used to live on a boat (with no fixed mooring) and my driving licence (and car reg doc) used to say "Narrowboat XXX" followed by my father's address. I informed the insurers of the postcode where the car was normally kept.

I asked (informally) the police and they said the address needs to be somewhere where you can be contacted.

Robert

[Pelican]

"RobertL" <rober...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:adb3a058-74c8-4102...@googlegroups.com...

Which seems to be the fundamental reason for the address. If so, it doesn't
matter whether it's the address of residence, or an address of convenience,
so long as it works.

[the Omrud]

Depends where you are going. France, for example, no longer requires
that you swap your UK licence for a French one in general, although you
do need to do this if you are given penalty points, or when you reach 70.

--
David

[Roland Perry]

In message <naeqdu$m1a$1...@dont-email.me>, at 22:14:54 on Mon, 22 Feb

2016, Pelican <water...@sea.somewhere.org.ir> remarked:

>>>> If you retain a primary residential address in the UK (eg, if you have a
>>>> holiday home in the South of France where you spend the winter, but come
>>>> home in summer) then you don't need to change the licence. The same
>>>>applies
>>>> if you're merely outside the UK temporarily (eg, on contract work).
>>>>But if
>>>> you've left the UK permanently then your licence will become invalid.
>>>
>>>If that is legally correct, does it have any practical effect if and
>>>when the licence is provided outside the UK? It's just another licence.
>>
>> Most places will want you to take a local driving test and get a
>>local licence. That can include the authorities there confiscating
>>the UK licence. (If the other place is in the EU it may not be very
>>difficult to trade your UK one in for a local one, but outside it
>>could involve taking a test.)
>
>No doubt. But the question appears to be asked in the context of the
>local authorities not knowing that the person was anything other than
>(say) a visitor. It's deception, and not very complicated.

To some extent it depends how much the foreign authorities regard
catching people with invalid licences as a "nice little earner". In the
USA you can't really exist without a USA Driving Licence (as ID), so
spending years driving on a foreign one is very difficult.

>>>>>Would a licence showing such a UK address be valid in another
>>>>>member state
>>>>>or in the UK during returns home?
>>>>
>>>> No.
>>>
>>>Ditto.
>>>
>>>I understand the reasons why you give those answers, but it seems to
>>>be arguable on the law, and a bit dubious to say the least in reality.
>>
>> Now that driving licences are widely used as "Government issued photo
>>ID", then it's even more important they have a correct address on
>>them.
>
>Quite so. But is is something that is easily enforceable?

I don't think many independent checks are made when licences are
renewed, but don't start giving them ideas!

>>>>>Are there any insurance implications?
>>>>
>>>> Yes. Your insurance will be void. So not only will the insurer not
>>>>pay out
>>>> in the event of a claim, you may be liable for prosecution for not
>>>>having
>>>> valid insurance.
>>>
>>>Is it correct that the insurance will be void? It may depend on the
>>>T&C of the policy, and
>>
>> The T&C will say you have to hold a valid licence. But if you've got
>>one from your new place of residence, use that.
>>
>>>whether the insurer comes to know of the true state of play.
>>
>> That'll happen when a claim is made.
>
>Not necessarily. This is apparently an exercise in deception.

If there's significant money to be paid out, the insurers will probably
make enquiries to confirm the validity of the licence.
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <1mj0pjp.trzfpk2j3nc4N%ro...@hayter.org>, at 11:09:05 on Mon,
22 Feb 2016, Roger Hayter <ro...@hayter.org> remarked:

>> Your insurance policy will include the bit about needing a valid
>> licence, and for a UK licence to be valid it must have your residential
>> address (overseas ones not allowed).
>
>Normally policies say something along the lines of "holds or has held
>and is not disqualified from holding" a licence. It is address of
>residence and where the car is kept that is likely to affect the
>validity of the insurance rather then the driver's licence.

That'll depend on the meaning of the word "disqualified from holding".
Living overseas probably does disqualify someone from holding a UK
licence.
--
Roland Perry

[Nogood Boyo]

"Roland Perry" <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote in message

news:3uqSBC3Q...@perry.co.uk...

Yes, I follow the logic but it's funny that GOV.UK doesn't say that. The
only law that I've so far been able to find doesn't say that either:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1999/2864/contents/made

I've just found this:

https://www.gov.uk/exchange-foreign-driving-licence/y/yes/car-or-motorcycle/european-union

which says "You can drive in Great Britain on a full, valid driving licence
from another EU country until you're 70, or for 3 years after becoming
resident in Great Britain, whichever is longer. After this time you must
exchange your licence."

It seems reasonable to conclude that the same applies in reverse.

So the real issue is whether, as I originally asked, there is any reason why

the UK licence shouldn't be retained with the UK address of, eg, a parent or

a property owned in the UK but being let during the overseas residence.
Apart from replies her, I canm't find anything that says that a licence
becomes invalid if it doesn't bear a current residential address.

(In case you're wondering why I'm making an issue of it, I have to convince
someone in this situation that they need to act and at the moment they are
completely satisfied that they don't. It's delicate...)

--
Nogood Boyo

[Roger Hayter]

It doesn't disqualify them from holding a valid local licence, and I
have never seen the "valid licence" qualified as a UK-issued one.


--

Roger Hayter

[Roland Perry]

In message <naeq35$ku4$1...@dont-email.me>, at 11:09:12 on Mon, 22 Feb
2016, Robin <rb...@hotmail.com> remarked:

>> Your insurance policy will include the bit about needing a valid
>> licence, and for a UK licence to be valid it must have your
>> residential address (overseas ones not allowed).
>
>I may be misunderstanding what you mean by "for a UK licence to be valid
>it must have your residential address" but AIUI - which may of course be
>wrongly - the offence of failing to notify a change of address (which
>attracts a fine of up to £1,000) neither invalidates the licence nor
>attracts points which might lead to disqualification. I CBA'd to plough
>through the regs but there there was much publicity around this a couple
>of years ago (in connection with people failing to update photo licences
>etc) with statements such as
>
>"Rob Miles, head of motor at Direct Line, said: 'British motorists have
>a duty to update the DVLA of any change of name or address or of any
>medical condition that could affect their ability to drive, but it seems
>that many motorists simply don't realise they are breaking the terms of
>their licence.'
>
>'Millions of drivers have an old name or address on their driving
>licence, and while this won't affect their car insurance cover, having
>incorrect information on their licence puts them at risk of a large fine
>if their licence is ever checked by the police.

That's people still living in the UK.

The question that's currently defeating us is what status your UK
licence has after you've told DVLA that you've moved abroad[1].

Is it still valid (unlikely), is it suspended for the duration, is it
revoked, or what?

DVLA is apparently silent on that matter, which is perhaps evidence that
you have to "re-apply", and at least one third party guide I looked at
today says the original licence will have "lapsed".

Another question is whether, if one has to re-apply, whether your
original driving test pass is still recognised.

[1] Outside the EU.
--
Roland Perry

[Pelican]

"Roland Perry" <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote in message

news:Ch9vyHCM...@perry.co.uk...

I don't think they need me to be giving them ideas. They will be light
years in front.

>>>>>>Are there any insurance implications?
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes. Your insurance will be void. So not only will the insurer not pay
>>>>> out
>>>>> in the event of a claim, you may be liable for prosecution for not
>>>>> having
>>>>> valid insurance.
>>>>
>>>>Is it correct that the insurance will be void? It may depend on the T&C
>>>>of the policy, and
>>>
>>> The T&C will say you have to hold a valid licence. But if you've got one
>>> from your new place of residence, use that.
>>>
>>>>whether the insurer comes to know of the true state of play.
>>>
>>> That'll happen when a claim is made.
>>
>>Not necessarily. This is apparently an exercise in deception.
>
> If there's significant money to be paid out, the insurers will probably
> make enquiries to confirm the validity of the licence.

Maybe, but that's really part of the risk assessment for the person
involved.

[Pelican]

"Roland Perry" <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote in message

news:zQnzeZEn...@perry.co.uk...

That's not correct. We are never defeated. We may (or some of us may) be
right or wrong, but never defeated.

> Is it still valid (unlikely), is it suspended for the duration, is it
> revoked, or what?

Telling the DVLA should have nothing to do with the status of the licence.
The status has to be that it remains perfectly valid legally until it
expires. It's only a licence to drive, and it doesn't need to change its
status just because the holder changes their address. Until the legislation
is changed to remove legal validity for that reason, which has problems of
its own.

[Roland Perry]

In message <dj06k8...@mid.individual.net>, at 10:36:11 on Mon, 22

Feb 2016, Nogood Boyo <use...@bwllfa.co.uk> remarked:

>>>>>Are there any insurance implications?
>>>>
>>>> Yes. Your insurance will be void. So not only will the insurer not pay
>>>> out
>>>> in the event of a claim, you may be liable for prosecution for not
>>>> having
>>>> valid insurance.
>>>>
>>>Thanks, those are the things I was worried about but I can't find anything
>>>to that effect on GOV.UK or elsewhere. Can you please point to something
>>>official / authoritative?
>>
>> Your insurance policy will include the bit about needing a valid licence,
>> and for a UK licence to be valid it must have your residential address
>> (overseas ones not allowed).
>
>Yes, I follow the logic but it's funny that GOV.UK doesn't say that.

GOV.UK doesn't say a very great number of things, especially at the
level of detail of your enquiry. Have you tried phoning DVLA?

>The
>only law that I've so far been able to find doesn't say that either:
>
>http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1999/2864/contents/made

Which of the 86 pages might it be expected to have been on (ie where
else are similar issues discussed)? I can't see in a quick scan where
the requirement to keep DVLA appraised of changes of address is, for
example.

>I've just found this:
>
>https://www.gov.uk/exchange-foreign-driving-licence/y/yes/car-or-motorcy
>cle/european-union
>
>which says "You can drive in Great Britain on a full, valid driving licence
>from another EU country until you're 70, or for 3 years after becoming
>resident in Great Britain, whichever is longer. After this time you must
>exchange your licence."
>
>It seems reasonable to conclude that the same applies in reverse.

For the EU there are reciprocal arrangements. What you need to do is
check the time limits (if any) for the destination.

>I canm't find anything that says that a licence
>becomes invalid if it doesn't bear a current residential address.

Let's start by finding the place where it says you have to inform DVLA
of change of address, and work from there.

>(In case you're wondering why I'm making an issue of it, I have to convince
>someone in this situation that they need to act and at the moment they are
>completely satisfied that they don't. It's delicate...)
>

--

Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <1mj0rnb.3m4x5l1rbaqgqN%ro...@hayter.org>, at 11:56:04 on

Mon, 22 Feb 2016, Roger Hayter <ro...@hayter.org> remarked:

>> >> Your insurance policy will include the bit about needing a valid
>> >> licence, and for a UK licence to be valid it must have your residential
>> >> address (overseas ones not allowed).
>> >
>> >Normally policies say something along the lines of "holds or has held
>> >and is not disqualified from holding" a licence. It is address of
>> >residence and where the car is kept that is likely to affect the
>> >validity of the insurance rather then the driver's licence.
>>
>> That'll depend on the meaning of the word "disqualified from holding".
>> Living overseas probably does disqualify someone from holding a UK
>> licence.
>
>It doesn't disqualify them from holding a valid local licence

Obviously. Which is why I suggested earlier that getting a relevant
local licence should be a priority.
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <naetvd$2qb$1...@dont-email.me>, at 23:15:26 on Mon, 22 Feb
2016, Pelican <water...@sea.somewhere.org.ir> remarked:

>> The question that's currently defeating us is what status your UK
>> licence has after you've told DVLA that you've moved abroad[1].
>
>That's not correct. We are never defeated. We may (or some of us may) be
>right or wrong, but never defeated.

"CURRENTLY defeating", in the absence of any authority (so far).
--
Roland Perry

[Nogood Boyo]

"Pelican" <water...@sea.somewhere.org.ir> wrote in message
news:naeqdu$m1a$1...@dont-email.me...

>
>
> "Roland Perry" <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:zflD95wv...@perry.co.uk...
>> In message <naego3$m3g$1...@dont-email.me>, at 19:29:39 on Mon, 22 Feb 2016,
>> Pelican <water...@sea.somewhere.org.ir> remarked:
>>
>>>> If you retain a primary residential address in the UK (eg, if you have
>>>> a
>>>> holiday home in the South of France where you spend the winter, but
>>>> come
>>>> home in summer) then you don't need to change the licence. The same
>>>> applies
>>>> if you're merely outside the UK temporarily (eg, on contract work). But
>>>> if
>>>> you've left the UK permanently then your licence will become invalid.
>>>
>>>If that is legally correct, does it have any practical effect if and when
>>>the licence is provided outside the UK? It's just another licence.
>>
>> Most places will want you to take a local driving test and get a local
>> licence. That can include the authorities there confiscating the UK
>> licence. (If the other place is in the EU it may not be very difficult to
>> trade your UK one in for a local one, but outside it could involve taking
>> a test.)
>
> No doubt. But the question appears to be asked in the context of the
> local authorities not knowing that the person was anything other than
> (say) a visitor. It's deception, and not very complicated.

That's not true and it's offensive.

>>>>>Would a licence showing such a UK address be valid in another member
>>>>>state
>>>>>or in the UK during returns home?
>>>>
>>>> No.
>>>
>>>Ditto.
>>>
>>>I understand the reasons why you give those answers, but it seems to be
>>>arguable on the law, and a bit dubious to say the least in reality.
>>
>> Now that driving licences are widely used as "Government issued photo
>> ID", then it's even more important they have a correct address on them.
>
> Quite so. But is is something that is easily enforceable?
>
>>>>>Are there any insurance implications?
>>>>
>>>> Yes. Your insurance will be void. So not only will the insurer not pay
>>>> out
>>>> in the event of a claim, you may be liable for prosecution for not
>>>> having
>>>> valid insurance.
>>>
>>>Is it correct that the insurance will be void? It may depend on the T&C
>>>of the policy, and
>>
>> The T&C will say you have to hold a valid licence. But if you've got one
>> from your new place of residence, use that.
>>
>>>whether the insurer comes to know of the true state of play.
>>
>> That'll happen when a claim is made.
>
> Not necessarily. This is apparently an exercise in deception.

Again, not true and offensive.

--
Nogood Boyo

[col...@yahoo.co.uk]

Op maandag 22 februari 2016 13:23:37 UTC+1 schreef Roland Perry:

> For the EU there are reciprocal arrangements. What you need to do is
> check the time limits (if any) for the destination.

Correct information about the mutual recognition of driving licences in EU countries will be found here http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/vehicles/driving-licence/driving-licence-recognition-validity/index_en.htm

Colin Youngs
Brussels

[Mark BR]

On 22/02/2016 14:47, Mark Goodge wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Feb 2016 19:12:36 -0000, "Nogood Boyo" <use...@bwllfa.co.uk> put

> finger to keyboard and typed:
>

>> GOV.UK says "If you're moving abroad, you can't register your new address on
>> your British driving licence. Contact the driving licence authority in your
>> new country of residence."
>>
>> I can't find anything requiring the UK licence to be surrendered. Is there

>> any reason why the UK licence shouldn't be retained with the UK address of,
>> eg, a parent or a property owned in the UK but being let during the overseas

>> residence?
>
> The address on your licence has to be your current residential address. So
> no, you can't use any form of accomodation address on it.
>

> If you retain a primary residential address in the UK (eg, if you have a
> holiday home in the South of France where you spend the winter, but come
> home in summer) then you don't need to change the licence. The same applies
> if you're merely outside the UK temporarily (eg, on contract work). But if
> you've left the UK permanently then your licence will become invalid.
>

>> Would a licence showing such a UK address be valid in another member state
>> or in the UK during returns home?
>
> No.
>

>> Are there any insurance implications?
>
> Yes. Your insurance will be void. So not only will the insurer not pay out
> in the event of a claim, you may be liable for prosecution for not having
> valid insurance.
>

> Mark
>

Having spent many years in many countries I have always found that the
DVLA require a UK address at which you can be contacted. You do not lose
your UK licence by going out of the UK.

As for driving in other countries it totally depends on that countries
rules. As a general rule of thumb it is better to get a local licence
especially if you do have an accident. That might involve just showing
your UK licence, surrendering your UK licence (and get it back when you
leave), must have an international licence or at worst take a test.

I have a little pile of licences, trouble is all except the UK one run
out after just a few years.

--

Mark BR

[Pelican]

"Nogood Boyo" <use...@bwllfa.co.uk> wrote in message
news:dj06k8...@mid.individual.net...

That's not the law. It's not that black-and-white, it's not sudden death,
and there won't be an explicit rule in legislation on the point. In other
words, it's a bit flexible.

> (In case you're wondering why I'm making an issue of it, I have to
> convince someone in this situation that they need to act and at the moment
> they are completely satisfied that they don't. It's delicate...)

Have to act, in which way?

[Nogood Boyo]

"Roland Perry" <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote in message

news:ag05iZFo...@perry.co.uk...

> In message <dj06k8...@mid.individual.net>, at 10:36:11 on Mon, 22 Feb
> 2016, Nogood Boyo <use...@bwllfa.co.uk> remarked:
>

>>Yes, I follow the logic but it's funny that GOV.UK doesn't say that.
>
> GOV.UK doesn't say a very great number of things, especially at the level
> of detail of your enquiry. Have you tried phoning DVLA?

Not yet. I have an allergy to call centres.

>>The
>>only law that I've so far been able to find doesn't say that either:
>>
>>http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1999/2864/contents/made
>
> Which of the 86 pages might it be expected to have been on (ie where else
> are similar issues discussed)?

I'd have expected something in Part II Licences (which covers: categories,
ages, applications, provisional licences, miscellaneous) or Part VII
Supplementary.

> I can't see in a quick scan where the requirement to keep DVLA appraised
> of changes of address is, for example.

Quite...

>>I've just found this:
>>
>>https://www.gov.uk/exchange-foreign-driving-licence/y/yes/car-or-motorcy
>>cle/european-union
>>
>>which says "You can drive in Great Britain on a full, valid driving
>>licence
>>from another EU country until you're 70, or for 3 years after becoming
>>resident in Great Britain, whichever is longer. After this time you must
>>exchange your licence."
>>
>>It seems reasonable to conclude that the same applies in reverse.
>
> For the EU there are reciprocal arrangements. What you need to do is check
> the time limits (if any) for the destination.

Yes, that's apparently been done and I'm told that I needn't worry.

>>I canm't find anything that says that a licence
>>becomes invalid if it doesn't bear a current residential address.
>
> Let's start by finding the place where it says you have to inform DVLA of
> change of address, and work from there.

Yes, I started but there are 159 pieces of E&W legislation with the words
"driving licence" in the title.

--
Nogood Boyo

[AnthonyL]

I have no idea but I lived overseas continuously for over 10yrs and
retained my UK licence using my parents' address and gave it no second
thought on my visits back here. Obviously I had driving licences in
the overseas countries. Reading this thread it would seem as if I was
acting illegally. No internet in those days so nothing to look up and
worry about <g>

--
AnthonyL

[Jeremy Sanders]

Nogood Boyo wrote:


> https://www.gov.uk/exchange-foreign-driving-licence/y/yes/car-or-motorcycle/european-union
>
> which says "You can drive in Great Britain on a full, valid driving
> licence from another EU country until you're 70, or for 3 years after
> becoming resident in Great Britain, whichever is longer. After this time
> you must exchange your licence."
>
> It seems reasonable to conclude that the same applies in reverse.

Indeed the German authorities say you can drive on another EU license until
it expires:

http://www.bmvi.de/SharedDocs/EN/Artikel/LA/validity-foreign-driving-licences-in-germany.html

J

[Roland Perry]

In message <naf4hp$614$1...@news.datemas.de>, at 21:04:25 on Mon, 22 Feb
2016, Mark BR <bri...@x-privat.it> remarked:

>Having spent many years in many countries I have always found that the
>DVLA require a UK address at which you can be contacted. You do not
>lose your UK licence by going out of the UK.

What's the procedure for telling DVLA that you've moved overseas, and
how do they record it, given that their website gives the impression
they won't accept a change-of-address-to-overseas?
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <56cb0505...@news.eternal-september.org>, at 12:56:49
on Mon, 22 Feb 2016, AnthonyL <nos...@please.invalid> remarked:

>I have no idea but I lived overseas continuously for over 10yrs and
>retained my UK licence using my parents' address and gave it no second
>thought on my visits back here. Obviously I had driving licences in
>the overseas countries. Reading this thread it would seem as if I was
>acting illegally. No internet in those days so nothing to look up and
>worry about <g>

The Internet is not the only reference source. I was having
conversations just like this one on CompuServe in 1985.
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <naf379$lck$1...@dont-email.me>, at 14:45:00 on Mon, 22 Feb
2016, Jeremy Sanders <jer...@jeremysanders.net> remarked:
>Nogood Boyo wrote:
>
>
>>
>>https://www.gov.uk/exchange-foreign-driving-licence/y/yes/car-or-motorc

>>ycle/european-union
>>
>> which says "You can drive in Great Britain on a full, valid driving
>> licence from another EU country until you're 70, or for 3 years after
>> becoming resident in Great Britain, whichever is longer. After this time
>> you must exchange your licence."
>>
>> It seems reasonable to conclude that the same applies in reverse.
>
>Indeed the German authorities say you can drive on another EU license until
>it expires:
>
>http://www.bmvi.de/SharedDocs/EN/Artikel/LA/validity-foreign-driving-lic
>ences-in-germany.html

Although it lists classes of [commercial vehicle] licence which Germany
won't accept after you are 50, or have lived there for 5 years.

[Roger Hayter]

Obviously. Which is why, even if they don't bother, they don't fall
foul of the "holds or has held and is not disqualified from holding"
rule.


--

Roger Hayter

[Nogood Boyo]

"Pelican" <water...@sea.somewhere.org.ir> wrote in message

news:naetbt$j9$1...@dont-email.me...

>
>> (In case you're wondering why I'm making an issue of it, I have to
>> convince someone in this situation that they need to act and at the
>> moment they are completely satisfied that they don't. It's delicate...)
>
> Have to act, in which way?

In the light of the initial advice in this thread, it looked as though it
would be necessary to obtain a licence overseas, sort insurance out, etc. It
now appears that much of the scary advice was incorrect and that nothing
needs to be done.

There was never any deception, contrary to your suggestion in another post.

[Nogood Boyo]

"Roland Perry" <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote in message

news:hLBH4MT$6xyW...@perry.co.uk...

They won't put an overseas address on the licence but they'll register an
overseas address for contact purposes. The GOV.UK web pages on this subject
leave a lot to be desired.

[Nogood Boyo]

"Nogood Boyo" <use...@bwllfa.co.uk> wrote in message

news:dj0eq6...@mid.individual.net...

>
> "Roland Perry" <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:ag05iZFo...@perry.co.uk...
>> In message <dj06k8...@mid.individual.net>, at 10:36:11 on Mon, 22 Feb
>> 2016, Nogood Boyo <use...@bwllfa.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>>>Yes, I follow the logic but it's funny that GOV.UK doesn't say that.
>>
>> GOV.UK doesn't say a very great number of things, especially at the level
>> of detail of your enquiry. Have you tried phoning DVLA?
>
> Not yet. I have an allergy to call centres.

Against my better judgement I rang the DVLA and was told that it's
"absolutely fine" to give them an address (eg, of a parent) which is no
longer the licence holder's home address but where post will be dealt with.
Further, although they can't put an overseas address on the licence, they
will register an overseas address for contact purposes. The licence remains
valid when someone moves overseas.

>
>>>The
>>>only law that I've so far been able to find doesn't say that either:
>>>
>>>http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1999/2864/contents/made
>>
>> Which of the 86 pages might it be expected to have been on (ie where else
>> are similar issues discussed)?
>
> I'd have expected something in Part II Licences (which covers: categories,
> ages, applications, provisional licences, miscellaneous) or Part VII
> Supplementary.
>
>> I can't see in a quick scan where the requirement to keep DVLA appraised
>> of changes of address is, for example.
>
> Quite...
>
>>>I've just found this:
>>>
>>>https://www.gov.uk/exchange-foreign-driving-licence/y/yes/car-or-motorcy
>>>cle/european-union
>>>
>>>which says "You can drive in Great Britain on a full, valid driving
>>>licence
>>>from another EU country until you're 70, or for 3 years after becoming
>>>resident in Great Britain, whichever is longer. After this time you must
>>>exchange your licence."
>>>
>>>It seems reasonable to conclude that the same applies in reverse.

The Irish Republic guidance:

www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/motoring_1/driver_licensing/exchanging_foreign_driving_permit.html

says: "Holders of licences issued by an EU/EEA member state. If you have a
driving licence issued by an EU/EEA member state you can drive in Ireland as
long as your existing licence is valid. If you wish to exchange your driving
licence for an equivalent Irish driving licence when it expires, you must do
so within 10 years of your driving licence expiring."

>>
>> For the EU there are reciprocal arrangements. What you need to do is
>> check the time limits (if any) for the destination.
>
> Yes, that's apparently been done and I'm told that I needn't worry.
>
>>>I canm't find anything that says that a licence
>>>becomes invalid if it doesn't bear a current residential address.
>>
>> Let's start by finding the place where it says you have to inform DVLA of
>> change of address, and work from there.
>
> Yes, I started but there are 159 pieces of E&W legislation with the words
> "driving licence" in the title.

I gave up and rang the DVLA again (the first experience being surprisingly
painless) and was referred to:

Road Traffic Act 1988, sections 99(4) and (5)
Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988, Schedule 2

all of which appear to have been heavily amended without legislation.gov.uk
being updated yet.

--
Nogood Boyo

[Roland Perry]

In message <dj0eq6...@mid.individual.net>, at 12:55:26 on Mon, 22

Feb 2016, Nogood Boyo <use...@bwllfa.co.uk> remarked:
>
>"Roland Perry" <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:ag05iZFo...@perry.co.uk...
>> In message <dj06k8...@mid.individual.net>, at 10:36:11 on Mon, 22 Feb
>> 2016, Nogood Boyo <use...@bwllfa.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>>>Yes, I follow the logic but it's funny that GOV.UK doesn't say that.
>>
>> GOV.UK doesn't say a very great number of things, especially at the level
>> of detail of your enquiry. Have you tried phoning DVLA?
>
>Not yet. I have an allergy to call centres.
>
>>>The
>>>only law that I've so far been able to find doesn't say that either:
>>>
>>>http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1999/2864/contents/made
>>
>> Which of the 86 pages might it be expected to have been on (ie where else
>> are similar issues discussed)?
>
>I'd have expected something in Part II Licences (which covers: categories,
>ages, applications, provisional licences, miscellaneous) or Part VII
>Supplementary.

After a bit of poking around it's probably in s99 RTA 1988 (as amended).
Not sure exactly which subsection, but the phrase "normally resident in
Great Britain" appears, and if you aren't it may well be the case that
the licence is invalid.

--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <dj0lnn...@mid.individual.net>, at 14:53:03 on Mon, 22
Feb 2016, Nogood Boyo <use...@bwllfa.co.uk> remarked:

>The GOV.UK web pages on this subject leave a lot to be desired.

No change there, then.
--
Roland Perry

[Roger Hayter]

What is unclear (and I think is often unclear when government rules
about address are looked at) is whether it has in some sense to be your
main address, or a permanent address or an address you actually live at
(for what percentage of the time?) or could live at, or just an address
you can be contacted at.

Also whether it is linked to any other definitions of country of
residence.

I agree with Pelican, if you are always contactable at the UK address
within a reasonable time, and don't make waves, it is unlikely that
DVLA will know or care. That probably true of an address move in the
UK. If you retain the possibility of staying at your old address (eg
parents' address) it is unlikely you could be prosecuted successfully
for failing to notify a change of address.

Insurance is totally another matter, and what address you have on your
licence is probably not the insurance company's business. Your
truthfullness about where you live probably is.




--

Roger Hayter

[Roger Hayter]

I'm totally sure you have to inform your insurance company if you live
abroad for more than a certain amount of time - those that insure
driving abroad at all specify which countries and for how long.

--

Roger Hayter

[Roland Perry]

In message <1mj10w4.1n0x4mt11ihdjfN%ro...@hayter.org>, at 15:44:27 on
Mon, 22 Feb 2016, Roger Hayter <ro...@hayter.org> remarked:

>> What's the procedure for telling DVLA that you've moved overseas, and
>> how do they record it, given that their website gives the impression
>> they won't accept a change-of-address-to-overseas?
>
>What is unclear (and I think is often unclear when government rules
>about address are looked at) is whether it has in some sense to be your
>main address, or a permanent address or an address you actually live at
>(for what percentage of the time?) or could live at, or just an address
>you can be contacted at.

DVLA say (via gov.uk) that you have to "be a resident of Great Britain".

We collectively aren't getting any closer to what DVLA thinks about
"addresses where they can contact you".
--
Roland Perry

[Davey]

On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 14:38:54 -0000
"Nogood Boyo" <use...@bwllfa.co.uk> wrote:

> In the light of the initial advice in this thread, it looked as
> though it would be necessary to obtain a licence overseas, sort
> insurance out, etc. It now appears that much of the scary advice was
> incorrect and that nothing needs to be done.

I would still investigate whether insurance is required in the other
country after a certain period there. I agree with an earlier comment
that UK insurance for the EU is likely to be only for visits rather
than residence.
Don't forget that insurance and driving licences are separate concerns,
and what is ok for one is not necessarily ok for the other.
If the UK insurance is indeed valid indefinitely, all well and good,
but it is worth asking the insurance company.

--
Davey.

[Nogood Boyo]

"Roger Hayter" <ro...@hayter.org> wrote in message
news:1mj12kq.1bx4k4z1wx74asN%ro...@hayter.org...

Yes but that wasn't the issue (vehicle only acquired and insurance taken out
since the move). The issue was whether the UK licence was valid overseas
(Ireland) and it's now clear to me that it is.

[David Postill]

In article <dj03t4...@mid.individual.net>, on Mon, 22 Feb 2016
09:49:29 -0000, Nogood Boyo wrote:

|
| "Mark Goodge" <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote in message
| news:smelcbpcfq1gv486h...@news.markshouse.net...

| > On Sun, 21 Feb 2016 19:12:36 -0000, "Nogood Boyo" <use...@bwllfa.co.uk>
| > put
| > finger to keyboard and typed:
| >
| >>GOV.UK says "If you're moving abroad, you can't register your new address
| >>on
| >>your British driving licence. Contact the driving licence authority in
| >>your
| >>new country of residence."
| >>
| >>I can't find anything requiring the UK licence to be surrendered. Is there

| >>any reason why the UK licence shouldn't be retained with the UK address
| >>of,
| >>eg, a parent or a property owned in the UK but being let during the
| >>overseas

| >>residence?
| >
| > The address on your licence has to be your current residential address. So
| > no, you can't use any form of accomodation address on it.
| >
| > If you retain a primary residential address in the UK (eg, if you have a
| > holiday home in the South of France where you spend the winter, but come
| > home in summer) then you don't need to change the licence. The same
| > applies
| > if you're merely outside the UK temporarily (eg, on contract work). But if
| > you've left the UK permanently then your licence will become invalid.
| >
| >>Would a licence showing such a UK address be valid in another member state
| >>or in the UK during returns home?
| >
| > No.
| >

| >>Are there any insurance implications?
| >
| > Yes. Your insurance will be void. So not only will the insurer not pay out
| > in the event of a claim, you may be liable for prosecution for not having
| > valid insurance.
| >
| Thanks, those are the things I was worried about but I can't find anything
| to that effect on GOV.UK or elsewhere. Can you please point to something
| official / authoritative?

When I moved to Holland I called my insurer and was OK for a certain time
period (30 days if IIRC). The problem was after 30 days I couldn't renew
the insurance (it was expiring) without a UK permanent address.

I couldn't get NL insurance without first having my car certified by the
NL "mot" equivalent and with insurance I couldn't (legally) drive to the
test center.

I ended up selling the car for a nominal amount (it wasn't very valuable
anyway) to a UK friend visiting NL who was able to sell it on in the UK.

It would have cost me more money than the car was worth to scrap it in NL
and as I couldn't insure it I couldn't drive it :/
--
David Postill

[Robin]

Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <naeq35$ku4$1...@dont-email.me>, at 11:09:12 on Mon, 22 Feb
> 2016, Robin <rb...@hotmail.com> remarked:

>>> Your insurance policy will include the bit about needing a valid
>>> licence, and for a UK licence to be valid it must have your
>>> residential address (overseas ones not allowed).
>>

>> I may be misunderstanding what you mean by "for a UK licence to be
>> valid it must have your residential address" but AIUI - which may of
>> course be wrongly - the offence of failing to notify a change of
>> address (which attracts a fine of up to £1,000) neither invalidates
>> the licence nor attracts points which might lead to
>> disqualification. I CBA'd to plough through the regs but there
>> there was much publicity around this a couple of years ago (in
>> connection with people failing to update photo licences etc) with
>> statements such as
>>
>> "Rob Miles, head of motor at Direct Line, said: 'British motorists
>> have a duty to update the DVLA of any change of name or address or
>> of any medical condition that could affect their ability to drive,
>> but it seems that many motorists simply don't realise they are
>> breaking the terms of their licence.'
>>
>> 'Millions of drivers have an old name or address on their driving
>> licence, and while this won't affect their car insurance cover,
>> having incorrect information on their licence puts them at risk of a
>> large fine if their licence is ever checked by the police.
>
> That's people still living in the UK.

>
> The question that's currently defeating us is what status your UK

> licence has after you've told DVLA that you've moved abroad[1].
>
> Is it still valid (unlikely), is it suspended for the duration, is it
> revoked, or what?
>
> DVLA is apparently silent on that matter, which is perhaps evidence
> that you have to "re-apply", and at least one third party guide I
> looked at today says the original licence will have "lapsed".
>
> Another question is whether, if one has to re-apply, whether your
> original driving test pass is still recognised.
>

I could say more in response to that but given the OP's has confirmation
from DVLA that the licence remains valid I'll simply record that (a) I
had managed to keep up with the OP's questrion and (b) I didn't feel
defeated.

--

Robin
reply to address is (meant to be) valid

[Pelican]

"Nogood Boyo" <use...@bwllfa.co.uk> wrote in message

news:dj0qnh...@mid.individual.net...

It's not quite that simple. The UK licence may be valid in the UK, but it's
validity overseas depends solely on the rules in the other country.

[Pelican]

"Roland Perry" <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote in message

news:5cPxdbaG...@perry.co.uk...

Why does what DVLA think matter? It's the legal situation that is
important.

[Pelican]

"Robin" <rb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:nafk32$qs3$1...@dont-email.me...

>
>
> I could say more in response to that but given the OP's has confirmation
> from DVLA that the licence remains valid I'll simply record that (a) I had
> managed to keep up with the OP's questrion and (b) I didn't feel
> defeated.

Kudos or hubris?

[Roland Perry]

In message <nafnrh$ast$1...@dont-email.me>, at 06:37:07 on Tue, 23 Feb
2016, Pelican <water...@sea.somewhere.org.ir> remarked:

>> DVLA say (via gov.uk) that you have to "be a resident of Great Britain".
>>
>> We collectively aren't getting any closer to what DVLA thinks about
>>"addresses where they can contact you".
>
>Why does what DVLA think matter?

It'd be somewhere to start...

>It's the legal situation that is important.

... looking for whatever law they think is an authority for their
opinion.
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <nafk32$qs3$1...@dont-email.me>, at 18:32:57 on Mon, 22 Feb
2016, Robin <rb...@hotmail.com> remarked:

>> The question that's currently defeating us is what status your UK
>> licence has after you've told DVLA that you've moved abroad[1].

...

>I could say more in response to that but given the OP's has confirmation
>from DVLA that the licence remains valid I'll simply record that (a) I
>had managed to keep up with the OP's questrion and (b) I didn't feel
>defeated.

Feelings are one thing, but we collectively still don't have a proper
authority for the situation. While well meaning (on both sides) a junior
call centre operative's reported opinion may not convince a judge what
the law is.
--
Roland Perry

[Nogood Boyo]

"Davey" <da...@example.invalid> wrote in message
news:nafb3e$tc5$1...@dont-email.me...

It's not UK insurance. A vehicle was bought and insurance was taken out (in
Ireland) after the move.

[Pelican]

"Nogood Boyo" <use...@bwllfa.co.uk> wrote in message

news:dj0kr9...@mid.individual.net...

My apologies. You will understand that what has been clarified in this
discussion is how someone can effectively use an ID obtained in one country
as good ID in another although the circumstances have changed, mainly where
the person concerns lives. It itself, that might mean much so far as a
driving licence is concerned. But, if the licence is used to show
residence, it's deceptive.

[Robin]

I hope neither. But since you ask, the points which IMHO militated for
the answer I put forward were:

a. the evidence I cited that a UK licence does not cease to be valid
if it does not have the drivers residential address (and certainly
doesn't void insurance cover).
b. the absurdity if a UK licence did not cease to be valid for
failure to notify a new address in the UK but did if someone moved
abroad when (as many others have pointed out) all EU driving licences
are recognised thorughout the EU. (And likewise of course for those
resident in the UK driving on an EU licence if they fail to notify.)
c. the recollection that the offence of failing to notify is
freestanding and punishable only by a level 3 fine - ie no
disqualification, endoresement or penalty points (and yes, I've peeked
now at s.99 RTA 1988 and Sch 2 RTOA 1988 to confirm that seems still to
be the case)
d. the recollection that "address" was not defined for the purpose.
Difficult to prove though. (I think I did say I CBA'd to plough through
the vast body of regs?).

Like I said at the outset, I could be wrong as there's so much
legislation and so little available free in a useable form . And it
sure ain't not summat I know a lot about. But I don't feel I was waving
a wet finger (or other bits of anatomy) in the air :)

[Robin]

Indeed but what lay behind my feelings was that I:

a. did cite some evidence;
b. had in mind more I have now cited; and
c. would have been delighted to address the evidence for the case
that the license would cease to be valid if I had seen any.

I also beg to differ on your view of the weight which can be put on the
answer given by DVLA in response to a specific question on a point which
DVLA must meet very frequently. At the very least I would expect the
answer DVLA gave to be "reasonable cause" should anyone suggest an
offence under s.99(5).

But alls well that ends well for the OP who I trust is now thinking of
better things - or even Mrs. Dai Bread Two :)

[Nogood Boyo]

"Robin" <rb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:naftir$355$1...@dont-email.me...

>
> But alls well that ends well for the OP who I trust is now thinking of
> better things - or even Mrs. Dai Bread Two :)

Nah... got things to get up to in the wash house... :-)

[Mark Goodge]

On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 10:36:11 -0000, "Nogood Boyo" <use...@bwllfa.co.uk> put

finger to keyboard and typed:

>

>"Roland Perry" <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote in message

>news:3uqSBC3Q...@perry.co.uk...
>> In message <dj03t4...@mid.individual.net>, at 09:49:29 on Mon, 22 Feb
>> 2016, Nogood Boyo <use...@bwllfa.co.uk> remarked:

>>
>>>>>Are there any insurance implications?
>>>>
>>>> Yes. Your insurance will be void. So not only will the insurer not pay
>>>> out
>>>> in the event of a claim, you may be liable for prosecution for not
>>>> having
>>>> valid insurance.
>>>>
>>>Thanks, those are the things I was worried about but I can't find anything
>>>to that effect on GOV.UK or elsewhere. Can you please point to something
>>>official / authoritative?
>>

>> Your insurance policy will include the bit about needing a valid licence,
>> and for a UK licence to be valid it must have your residential address
>> (overseas ones not allowed).
>

>Yes, I follow the logic but it's funny that GOV.UK doesn't say that. The

>only law that I've so far been able to find doesn't say that either:
>
>http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1999/2864/contents/made

That's because the requirement for it to be your current residential
address isn't in legislation. It's a DVLA rule, and one which DVLA is
entitled to make as it is an executive agency with authority to make such
rules.

The actual offence, in law, is failing to notify DVLA of any change to your
address. That's in the Road Traffic Act 1988, section 99.(4) and 99.(5):

(4) Where the name or address of the licence holder as specified in a
licence ceases to be correct, its holder must forthwith surrender the
licence and its counterpart to the Secretary of State

(5) A person who without reasonable cause fails to comply with the
duty under subsection (2A),(3) or(4) above is guilty of an
offence.

The Act goes on to state that if a licence is surrendered for this reason,
a new licence must be issued to replace it. In practice, the DVLA accepts
the destruction of a previous licence as equivalent to surrendering,
provided it has been notified of the need to issue a new one. The law is
somewhat circuitously worded, but it acheives the desired effect!

>So the real issue is whether, as I originally asked, there is any reason why

>the UK licence shouldn't be retained with the UK address of, eg, a parent or

>a property owned in the UK but being let during the overseas residence.
>Apart from replies her, I canm't find anything that says that a licence

>becomes invalid if it doesn't bear a current residential address.
>

>(In case you're wondering why I'm making an issue of it, I have to convince
>someone in this situation that they need to act and at the moment they are
>completely satisfied that they don't. It's delicate...)

The DVLA's argument is that "address", in the context of the legislation,
means "where you live". That interpretation has been upheld enough times in
court that the prospects of a suiccessful challenge to it are minimal.

Mark
--
Insert random witticism here
http://www.markgoodge.com

[Clive Page]

On 21/02/2016 23:29, David Postill wrote:

> Which reminds me, now I'm back in the UK I should look into swapping it
> back.

Given the current political situation, I should change it back quick
before the UK leaves the EU and you are stuck with an alien licence.

Before we joined the EU, this used to be a matter of whether the
appropriate bilateral treaty had been signed. I saw somewhere that a US
citizen used to be able to exchange their license for a French one upon
taking up residence there if they were from North Dakota, but not from
South Dakota (because individual states had treaties with France, but
not all of them). I expect we'll be back to that sort of nonsense if we
abandon ship.

--
Clive Page

[Roland Perry]

In message <naftir$355$1...@dont-email.me>, at 21:14:59 on Mon, 22 Feb

99(4) says: Where the name or address of the licence holder as specified

in a licence ceases to be correct, its holder must forthwith

surrender the licence to the Secretary of State

and DVLA appears to think that "correct" for an address means your
primary residence (in the UK).

Is "reasonable cause" for failing to surrender the licence the fact that
DVLA won't accept an accommodation address? Or is it more to do with
people living on boats whose address is varaiable.

I agree that the situation with licencing interavailability across the
EU implies that the UK licence remains valid after you've relocated, and
with the DVLA not accepting an accommodation address or a foreign
address, does that leave us with "last known residential address"?

DVLA's position appears to be that you need to *swap* your UK licence
for a local EU one:

"If you’re moving abroad, you can’t register your new
address on your British driving licence. Contact the driving
licence authority in your new country of residence."

>But alls well that ends well for the OP who I trust is now thinking of
>better things - or even Mrs. Dai Bread Two :)

What if the EU country has a rule that the address on your
interavailable licence is your primary residence? Where does
that leave us.

And remember, the existence of interavailability in general doesn't mean
that every combination exists in practice. EU countries will accept a
national ID card as a travel document, but that doesn't help the
British, because we simply don't issue such cards.
--
Roland Perry

[Nogood Boyo]

"Mark Goodge" <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote in message

news:c81ncbl3099vo672s...@news.markshouse.net...

>
> The actual offence, in law, is failing to notify DVLA of any change to
> your
> address. That's in the Road Traffic Act 1988, section 99.(4) and 99.(5):
>
> (4) Where the name or address of the licence holder as specified in a
> licence ceases to be correct, its holder must forthwith surrender the
> licence and its counterpart to the Secretary of State
>
> (5) A person who without reasonable cause fails to comply with the
> duty under subsection (2A),(3) or(4) above is guilty of an
> offence.

I don't think you've applied amendments not incorporated by
legislation.gov.uk. I don' know the effect of them because I haven't carried
out that ecercise either.

[Nogood Boyo]

"Roland Perry" <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote in message

news:NVPsffrB...@perry.co.uk...

>
> 99(4) says: Where the name or address of the licence holder as specified
> in a licence ceases to be correct, its holder must forthwith
> surrender the licence to the Secretary of State

Have you applied the amendments not incorporated by legislation.gov.uk?

> and DVLA appears to think that "correct" for an address means your
> primary residence (in the UK).

Where have you seen that?

[Nogood Boyo]

"Mark Goodge" <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote in message
news:c81ncbl3099vo672s...@news.markshouse.net...
>

> The DVLA's argument is that "address", in the context of the legislation,
> means "where you live". That interpretation has been upheld enough times
> in
> court that the prospects of a suiccessful challenge to it are minimal.

Where have you seen that argument?

[Roland Perry]

In message <dj1hgb...@mid.individual.net>, at 22:47:41 on Mon, 22
Feb 2016, Clive Page <use...@page2.eu> remarked:

Maybe there'd be an increase in the use of these:

<http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/overseas/idp-requirements-by-
country.html#notes>

(Interesting to see that these are compulsory in Florida - I wonder how
many tourists know that).

However, they still need a valid UK licence, and there's still the open
issue of whether one without a "correct" UK residential address on it is
valid (for those who are emigrating rather than just touring).
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <dj2l8p...@mid.individual.net>, at 08:58:17 on Tue, 23

Feb 2016, Nogood Boyo <use...@bwllfa.co.uk> remarked:

>> 99(4) says: Where the name or address of the licence holder as specified
>> in a licence ceases to be correct, its holder must forthwith
>> surrender the licence to the Secretary of State
>
>Have you applied the amendments not incorporated by legislation.gov.uk?

Yes.

>> and DVLA appears to think that "correct" for an address means your
>> primary residence (in the UK).
>
>Where have you seen that?

gov.uk, combining the following parts of the instructions for advising a
change of address:

You'll need to be a resident of Great Britain

If you’re moving abroad, you can’t register your new address on
your
British driving licence. Contact the driving licence authority in
your new country of residence.

The latter paragraph has been much referenced earlier in the thread.
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <dj2lpv...@mid.individual.net>, at 09:07:31 on Tue, 23

Feb 2016, Nogood Boyo <use...@bwllfa.co.uk> remarked:

>> The actual offence, in law, is failing to notify DVLA of any change to
>> your
>> address. That's in the Road Traffic Act 1988, section 99.(4) and 99.(5):
>>
>> (4) Where the name or address of the licence holder as specified in a
>> licence ceases to be correct, its holder must forthwith surrender the
>> licence and its counterpart to the Secretary of State
>>
>> (5) A person who without reasonable cause fails to comply with the
>> duty under subsection (2A),(3) or(4) above is guilty of an
>> offence.
>
>I don't think you've applied amendments not incorporated by
>legislation.gov.uk. I don' know the effect of them because I haven't carried
>out that ecercise either.

I looked at the amendments before posting in a similar vein this
morning. Their effect upon the subsections in question is to delete
the words "and its counterpart".
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <aa4c5fc1-0029-47e1...@googlegroups.com>, at
06:04:32 on Mon, 22 Feb 2016, col...@yahoo.co.uk remarked:
>Op maandag 22 februari 2016 13:23:37 UTC+1 schreef Roland Perry:
>
>> For the EU there are reciprocal arrangements. What you need to do is
>> check the time limits (if any) for the destination.
>
>Correct information about the mutual recognition of driving licences in
>EU countries will be found here
>http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/vehicles/driving-licence/driving-li
>cence-recognition-validity/index_en.htm

Thanks for posting that. I think it starts off exploring exactly the
issues under discussion:

If your driving licence is issued by an EU country, it's recognised
throughout the EU and you can use it as long as:

it is valid*

it is not suspended* or restricted and has not been revoked* in the
issuing country.

...

So if you move to another EU country, you usually won't have to
exchange your licence.

You can drive in your new country on your current licence as long as
it is still valid. [By which they mean the 10yrs expiry for a UK one]

When your driving licence expires, you must renew it in the country
where you have your normal residence

* So I think we are back at a question I asked a couple of days ago:
what's the official adjective for a UK licence with an "incorrect"
address on it?
--
Roland Perry

[Robin]

Roland Perry wrote:
>
> and DVLA appears to think that "correct" for an address means your
> primary residence (in the UK).
>

Appears where please? DVLA's telephone advice to the OP point's the
other way. And as I've said in reply to Mark Goodge, I can't see any
basis for DVLA to impose a requirement for a permanent address.

> DVLA's position appears to be that you need to *swap* your UK licence
> for a local EU one:
>

> "If youâ?Tre moving abroad, you canâ?Tt register your new

> address on your British driving licence. Contact the driving
> licence authority in your new country of residence."
>

I did not read the latter as meaning that there was an offence under
s99(5) - let alone that the license became invalid.

> What if the EU country has a rule that the address on your
> interavailable licence is your primary residence? Where does
> that leave us.
>

In much the same place as with any other hyptehtical question - ie (a)
wait and address it if the issue arises or (b) do some research. A good
place to start might be whether 2006/126/EC has been overtaken or
amended where it specifies the form an EU licence with "permanent place
of residence, or postal address (optional)" (see Annex I).

[Roger Hayter]

Possibly the same as if they were in the UK with an incorrect address?
That is, the licence is valid but the holder is in contravention of a
regulation. I agree this may not be the case, but in the absence of a
formal revocation I would expect the licence remains valid.

--

Roger Hayter

[RobertL]

On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 3:44:52 PM UTC, Roger Hayter wrote:
> Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>

> > In message <naf4hp$614$1...@news.datemas.de>, at 21:04:25 on Mon, 22 Feb
> > 2016, Mark BR <bri...@x-privat.it> remarked:
> >
> > >Having spent many years in many countries I have always found that the
> > >DVLA require a UK address at which you can be contacted. You do not
> > >lose your UK licence by going out of the UK.

> >
> > What's the procedure for telling DVLA that you've moved overseas, and
> > how do they record it, given that their website gives the impression
> > they won't accept a change-of-address-to-overseas?
>
> What is unclear (and I think is often unclear when government rules
> about address are looked at) is whether it has in some sense to be your
> main address, or a permanent address or an address you actually live at
> (for what percentage of the time?) or could live at, or just an address
> you can be contacted at.
>

> Also whether it is linked to any other definitions of country of
> residence.
>
> I agree with Pelican, if you are always contactable at the UK address
> within a reasonable time, and don't make waves, it is unlikely that
> DVLA will know or care. That probably true of an address move in the
> UK. If you retain the possibility of staying at your old address (eg
> parents' address) it is unlikely you could be prosecuted successfully
> for failing to notify a change of address.
>
> Insurance is totally another matter, and what address you have on your
> licence is probably not the insurance company's business. Your
> truthfullness about where you live probably is.


Plus insurers often make a distinction between your address for correspondence and the address where the vehicle is usually kept. Presumably the risk is assessed on the latter.

Robert

[okno]

On 23/02/16 20:18, Roland Perry wrote:
>
> there's still the open
> issue of whether one without a "correct" UK residential address on it is
> valid (for those who are emigrating rather than just touring).

This "open issue" has been answered, but you don't like the answer. You
want a black-letter law resolution. Good luck on that.

In the real world, such a licence will be valid until it expires in the
usual way. It will be of no concern to the UK authorities because the
person is not in the UK.

The authorities of the host country will not know or care about the
incorrect address.

[Davey]

On Tue, 23 Feb 2016 09:18:32 +0000
Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:

> <http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/overseas/idp-requirements-by-
> country.html#notes>
>
> (Interesting to see that these are compulsory in Florida - I wonder
> how many tourists know that).

But next it says: "The Governor of Florida repealed this law on 2 April
2013,".

--
Davey.

[Robin]

Mark Goodge wrote:
>
> That's because the requirement for it to be your current residential
> address isn't in legislation. It's a DVLA rule, and one which DVLA is
> entitled to make as it is an executive agency with authority to make
> such rules.

That picqued my interst. Any public body is entitled to set out its
view of the law and its practice. Some have powers to issue guidelines
or codes of practice or the like which have greater force because they
are provided for in statute[1]. But Parliament still tends to insist
that such powers are very specific - and of course in statute. So if
DVLA have them I'd expect to see them in the statutes under which they
operate. And that'd be problematical because AFAICS from its Framework
Document the DVLA (like most Next Steps Agencies) has no legal status
separate from its parent department.

I'd also expect to see any rules with statutory force published. I
don't think courts would sustain "ignorance of the law is no excuse" if
the law is in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet, stuck in a disused
lavatory with a sign on the door saying "Beware of the Leopard".

<snip>

> The DVLA's argument is that "address", in the context of the
> legislation, means "where you live". That interpretation has been
> upheld enough times in court that the prospects of a suiccessful
> challenge to it are minimal.
>

That's perfectly possible as DVLA's intereptation of the statute. But I
wonder how they and the courts have dealt with people with no fixed
abode. Eg it would seem to mean that RobertL should have surrendered
his licence every time he moved to another mooring - which ISTM might
have been difficult if he sometimes moved to a new mooring before he had
recevied the new licence. It would seem also to mean that some -
possibly many - travellers are bound to struggle, which might engage the
Equality Act.


[1] A famous example are VAT Notices with material having the force of
law under specific powers given to the Commissioners in the VATA. Also
an infamous example because Notices used not always to make clear which
bits were views on the law and which biots were the law :)

[Roland Perry]

In message <nahdo7$fsi$1...@dont-email.me>, at 10:56:58 on Tue, 23 Feb
2016, Davey <da...@example.invalid> remarked:

>> <http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/overseas/idp-requirements-by-
>> country.html#notes>
>>
>> (Interesting to see that these are compulsory in Florida - I wonder
>> how many tourists know that).
>
>But next it says: "The Governor of Florida repealed this law on 2 April
>2013,".

That was a rapid u-turn!
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <nahb8r$9eg$1...@dont-email.me>, at 21:14:38 on Tue, 23 Feb
2016, okno <ok...@wattamiztak.com.eg> remarked:

>> there's still the open
>> issue of whether one without a "correct" UK residential address on it is
>> valid (for those who are emigrating rather than just touring).
>
>This "open issue" has been answered, but you don't like the answer.

It's an answer which raises questions.

> You want a black-letter law resolution. Good luck on that.
>
>In the real world, such a licence will be valid until it expires in the
>usual way. It will be of no concern to the UK authorities because the
>person is not in the UK.
>
>The authorities of the host country will not know or care about the
>incorrect address.

They might if driving licences are used in any official capacity as a
form of ID.
--
Roland Perry

[Pelican]

"Roland Perry" <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote in message

news:C9xv1QB7...@perry.co.uk...

"They" might. But not those concerned about driving.

[Davey]

He clearly realised that it had some problems as a piece of
legislation. And some car hire companies can impose their own
requirements.

What happened to the change last year that was going to make overseas
car hire much more problematic, I think it was the loss of the Paper
Part of the Driving Licence? Did it make a big difference to people?

--
Davey.

[Roland Perry]

In message <nahhm7$fsi$2...@dont-email.me>, at 12:04:10 on Tue, 23 Feb
2016, Davey <da...@example.invalid> remarked:

>What happened to the change last year that was going to make overseas
>car hire much more problematic, I think it was the loss of the Paper
>Part of the Driving Licence?

Yes. It's "gone online".

>Did it make a big difference to people?

Dunno.
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <1mj2j8o.189ufphrucmdcN%ro...@hayter.org>, at 10:49:06 on
Tue, 23 Feb 2016, Roger Hayter <ro...@hayter.org> remarked:

The holder has a duty to surrender it:

99(4) Where the name or address of the licence holder as specified in a

licence ceases to be correct, its holder must forthwith surrender

licence to the Secretary of State.

And if that's a "requirement imposed" then 99(3) may apply:

99(3) Where it appears to the Secretary of State -

...

(b) that the particulars specified in a licence granted by him to any
person do not comply with any requirement imposed since the
licence was granted by any provision made by or having effect
under any enactment,

the Secretary of State may serve notice in writing on that person
revoking the licence and requiring him to surrender the licence
forthwith to the Secretary of State [F9and it shall be the duty of
that person to comply with the requirement].
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <nahgg3$rn7$1...@dont-email.me>, at 22:43:48 on Tue, 23 Feb
2016, Pelican <water...@sea.somewhere.org.ir> remarked:

>>>In the real world, such a licence will be valid until it expires in
>>>the usual way. It will be of no concern to the UK authorities
>>>because the person is not in the UK.
>>>
>>>The authorities of the host country will not know or care about the
>>>incorrect address.
>>
>> They might if driving licences are used in any official capacity as a
>>form of ID.
>
>"They" might. But not those concerned about driving.

Some countries can manage joined-up policing. If such a country had a
such a rule and the traffic police stopped you and they thought your
licence was invalid they could confiscate it.
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <87vb5f1...@news2.kororaa.com>, at 11:04:09 on Tue, 23
Feb 2016, August West <aug...@kororaa.com> remarked:

>> Possibly the same as if they were in the UK with an incorrect address?
>> That is, the licence is valid but the holder is in contravention of a
>> regulation. I agree this may not be the case, but in the absence of a
>> formal revocation I would expect the licence remains valid.
>

>Quite. We have to distinguish between the licence to drive, granted by
>the government, and gained by passing the driiving test (and not being
>subsequently disqaulified), and the piece of plastic commonly referred
>to as the licence, which is, in fact, a dosument indicating the licence.
>
>Evel if I set light to my credit card licence, or otherwise destroy it,
>I am still licenced to drive. The card, in itself, does not grant
>anything, nor is it required. But, if it exists, it should have the
>correct address on it. But having incorrect adress information on it
>does not invalidate the licence to drive which it represents.

"The licence" depends on a mixture of qualifications, such as having
passed a test, given the right particulars, not having any medical/age
/judicial disqualifications and so on.

It doesn't exist as an entity in Swansea, it is embodied on the bit of
plastic, otherwise we wouldn't have wording like:

99(2A): Where, in accordance with the preceding provisions of this
section, a licence in the form of a photocard remains in force
for a period of more than ten years, the holder of the licence
must ...

and 99(3): the Secretary of State may serve notice in writing on that

person revoking the licence and requiring him to surrender

the licence forthwith to the Secretary of State...

The person can't surrender some bits inside a database in Swansea to the
SoS, all he can do is surrender the bit of plastic.
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <nahd7g$g6j$1...@dont-email.me>, at 10:48:10 on Tue, 23 Feb
2016, Robin <rb...@hotmail.com> remarked:

>Roland Perry wrote:
>>
>> and DVLA appears to think that "correct" for an address means your
>> primary residence (in the UK).

On the gov.uk page already cited

>Appears where please? DVLA's telephone advice to the OP point's the
>other way. And as I've said in reply to Mark Goodge, I can't see any
>basis for DVLA to impose a requirement for a permanent address.

99(3)(b) ?

>> DVLA's position appears to be that you need to *swap* your UK licence
>> for a local EU one:
>>
>> "If youâ?Tre moving abroad, you canâ?Tt register your new
>> address on your British driving licence. Contact the driving
>> licence authority in your new country of residence."
>>
>I did not read the latter as meaning that there was an offence under
>s99(5) - let alone that the license became invalid.

If they won't change the address to your new permanent one (overseas),
then the particulars on it are not correct.

Also [in the true meaning of "the exception which proves a rule"] they
*don't* say anything about *not* needing to change[1] your address if
going to the EU.

[1] Which is one of the possibilities I listed earlier; ie "the
'correct' address in the circumstances is your last known permanent
address, even though you've left"

Another unstated possibility might be "an accommodation address (but
only in the UK), which does *not* need to be your permanent
residency.

>> What if the EU country has a rule that the address on your
>> interavailable licence is your primary residence? Where does
>> that leave us.
>
>In much the same place as with any other hyptehtical question - ie (a)
>wait and address it if the issue arises or (b) do some research. A good
>place to start might be whether 2006/126/EC has been overtaken or
>amended where it specifies the form an EU licence with "permanent place
>of residence, or postal address (optional)" (see Annex I).

Which lists what has to be on an EU-format licence to make it
acceptable:

(d) 8. permanent place of residence, or postal address (optional);

and that does leave open the possibility that an accommodation [postal]
address could be substituted for the non-UK permanent place of
residence. But does the UK implement that optional feature. And if so,
where is the information about it from the DVLA? The OP has had verbal
confirmation from their helpline, but where is it written down?
--
Roland Perry

[Robin]

Roland Perry wrote:
>
> The holder has a duty to surrender it:

> 99(4) Where the name or address of the licence holder as specified in
> a licence ceases to be correct, its holder must forthwith
> surrender licence to the Secretary of State.
>
> And if that's a "requirement imposed" then 99(3) may apply:
>
> 99(3) Where it appears to the Secretary of State -
>
> ...
>
> (b) that the particulars specified in a licence granted by him to
> any person do not comply with any requirement imposed since the
> licence was granted by any provision made by or having effect
> under any enactment,
>
> the Secretary of State may serve notice in writing on that
> person revoking the licence and requiring him to surrender the
> licence forthwith to the Secretary of State [F9and it shall be
> the duty of that person to comply with the requirement].

It is not clear to me that failure to notify a change of address falls
within ss(3)(b). But even if it is, the subsection only confirms that a
driver who fails to notify a change of address remains licensed to drive
unless and until the SoS serves said notice.

[|||new...@nezumi.demon.co.uk]

In America at least with the old paper ones they are so amused by the long expiry date and unfamiliar layout/no photo that they neither know nor care. In some European countries you have to get a local license after some period of grace (and surrender your UK one to them for the duration at least in Belgium).

You are making a mountain out of a molehill here.

Provided the address on the license is one by which DVLA can contact you they don't really bother. You could enable mail redirection on your original address to make sure anything in transit reaches you (sensible when moving between countries as some mail otherwise goes AWOL). Won't work for special delivery.

Regards,
Martin Brown

[Roland Perry]

In message <87r3g31...@news2.kororaa.com>, at 14:00:41 on Tue, 23

Feb 2016, August West <aug...@kororaa.com> remarked:
>

>The entity calling itself Roland Perry wrote:
>>
>> It doesn't exist as an entity in Swansea, it is embodied on the bit of
>> plastic, otherwise we wouldn't have wording like:
>

>Clearly, it does exist as an entity in Swansea, as I lose nothing, other
>than the bit of plastic itself, if destroy it.

If you are stopped by the police who ask to see your licence, would you
direct them to Swansea?

>The "licence to drive" is not embodied in the plastic "deiving licence"
>- the plastic is merely an indicator of the "licence to drive".

Tell that to the people who wrote s99.

Swansea will have a record of your credentials, and will issue you with
a replacement/renewed bit of plastic if the credentials are
satisfactory.
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <f665bc2b-56c2-4f82...@googlegroups.com>, at
06:31:45 on Tue, 23 Feb 2016, |||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk remarked:

>You are making a mountain out of a molehill here.

A molehill which could be demolished by a couple of sentences DVLA have
seen fit not to publish.

>You could enable mail redirection on your original address to make sure
>anything in transit reaches you (sensible when moving between countries
>as some mail otherwise goes AWOL).

Only for two years I think.
--
Roland Perry

[|||new...@nezumi.demon.co.uk]

OK. You have quoted the legislation. So what happens to someone who sells up their home and buys a touring motor caravan to live in. Does their driving license cease to be valid since they no longer have any permanent UK address or spontaneously combust at the behest of DVLA in your universe?

DVLA seem to be fairly pragmatic about people living and working overseas.

You just have to make sure that you do convert it into the local required documentation inside the period allowed for a straight exchange or you could be forced to take a full test in a foreign language if you miss that deadline.

It seems in the OP's case Ireland are relaxed about converting a UK license.

Regards,
Martin Brown

[Nogood Boyo]

"Robin" <rb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:nahd7b$g3c$1...@dont-email.me...

Good example here:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/vat-notice-703-export-of-goods-from-the-uk/vat-notice-703-export-of-goods-from-the-uk

[Pelican]

"Roland Perry" <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote in message

news:8abQc6JR...@perry.co.uk...

If.

[Iain]

Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> Wrote in message:

> * So I think we are back at a question I asked a couple of days ago:
> what's the official adjective for a UK licence with an "incorrect"
> address on it?

Illegal, according to this:
https://www.gov.uk/legal-obligations-drivers-riders

Legal obligations of drivers and riders
........
Changes to personal or vehicle details
You must tell DVLA if you:
change your name or address
.....

--
Iain

Sent from my Mi3


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

[Cupra]

Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <hlhkcbhppot37gr61...@4ax.com>, at 23:29:33 on
> Sun, 21 Feb 2016, David Postill <david....@gmail.com> remarked:
>> You're supposed to exchange your UK licence for a local licence after some
>> periond of time (in the EU at least). I swapped my UK licence for a Dutch
>> one when I Lived in Holland. There was a small admin charge and you have
>> to surrender your UK Licence.
>>
>> http://www.expatica.com/nl/visas-and-permits/How-to-get-a-Dutch-drivers-licence_100813.html
>>
>> To exchange (omwissel) your existing national driving license (rijbewijs)
>> for a Dutch one, you must fit into one of the categories below. Otherwise
>> you can use it for 185 days after arrival after which you must pass the
>> regular CBR theory and driving tests (available in English but you may
>> need to pay extra).
>>
>> So you can use your UK licence for 185 days. After that you have to take a
>> test.
>>
>> It's easier as a UK citizen to just swap the licence (before 185 days), in
>> which you get issued with a Dutch licence and no test is needed.
>
> Here's the procedure for New York State
>
> http://dmv.ny.gov/driver-license/drive-new-york-state
>
> which is broadly the same across the USA. Although I happen to know the
> time period in California is as little as 10 days. Note how US states
> regard other US states as "foreign places" for these purposes.
>
> One of the gotchas in the US system is that you generally need to
> produce a Social Security number to qualify for a licence, and those
> will typically take over 30 days to arrive if you just became a
> permanent resident from overseas.


I received my SSN next day... Card takes a week or so in the post.

Each state differs and open to interrelation in some cases but I took my
test(s) within 2 months of moving to the US.


--
--
Cupra

[Davey]

On 23 Feb 2016 21:08:30 GMT

I don't remember how long my SSN took, although it was certainly only
a matter of days, but I drove for two years there on my UK license
without any problem, while I was a Visitor. It was only when I got a
more serious working/residential visa that I thought it prudent to get a
State Driver's License.

--
Davey.

[Roland Perry]

In message <dj402e...@mid.individual.net>, at 21:08:30 on Tue, 23
Feb 2016, Cupra <cup...@SPAMgmail.com> remarked:

>> One of the gotchas in the US system is that you generally need to
>> produce a Social Security number to qualify for a licence, and those
>> will typically take over 30 days to arrive if you just became a
>> permanent resident from overseas.
>
>I received my SSN next day... Card takes a week or so in the post.

Maybe they've speeded the process up. I had to go to a special centre (a
bit like a UK Passport-office-in-person) to get mine in a timely
fashion.
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <naisui$cic$1...@dont-email.me>, at 00:22:30 on Wed, 24 Feb
2016, Davey <da...@example.invalid> remarked:

>I don't remember how long my SSN took, although it was certainly only
>a matter of days, but I drove for two years there on my UK license
>without any problem, while I was a Visitor. It was only when I got a
>more serious working/residential visa that I thought it prudent to get a
>State Driver's License.

I met a lady who claimed to have driven here on a US licence for ten
years when her husband was relocated to work in the UK. No idea what her
immigration status was either - tourists get six months I think, and she
certainly wasn't an official "permanent resident".
--
Roland Perry

[Adam Funk]

On 2016-02-23, Davey wrote:

> What happened to the change last year that was going to make overseas
> car hire much more problematic, I think it was the loss of the Paper
> Part of the Driving Licence? Did it make a big difference to people?

I helped a relative with a UK licence get the magic codes from the
DVLA website in order to rent a car in the USA last summer, but no-one
was interested in them.

[Adam Funk]

On 2016-02-22, Roland Perry wrote:

> In message <hlhkcbhppot37gr61...@4ax.com>, at 23:29:33 on
> Sun, 21 Feb 2016, David Postill <david....@gmail.com> remarked:

>>You're supposed to exchange your UK licence for a local licence after some
>>periond of time (in the EU at least). I swapped my UK licence for a Dutch
>>one when I Lived in Holland. There was a small admin charge and you have
>>to surrender your UK Licence.

...

>>It's easier as a UK citizen to just swap the licence (before 185 days), in
>>which you get issued with a Dutch licence and no test is needed.
>
> Here's the procedure for New York State
>
> http://dmv.ny.gov/driver-license/drive-new-york-state
>
> which is broadly the same across the USA. Although I happen to know the
> time period in California is as little as 10 days. Note how US states
> regard other US states as "foreign places" for these purposes.

But it does say "[i]f your license was issued outside the U.S. or
Canada, you must apply for a new original NYS driver license at a DMV
office", so you can't *swap* a UK licence for a NY one. As far as the
USA & NY are concerned, you can keep the UK one in parallel, & I
can't think of any reason you would want to revoke the UK one, since
it would involve additional hassle on returning to the UK.