PCN for non dispolay of blue badge
elliott131
I parked in a council owned car park recently but forgot to put my blue
badge in the window and consequently received a parking ticket.
Last July I did exactly the same thing (doh!), wrote to the ticket
issuer and they cancelled the ticket and stated that they would not do
the same again.
I have written a begging letter but they say that as they let me off
before the ticket still stands.
I would like to know if I can challenge the ticket on any of the
following grounds
1) They cancelled a PCN last July because I forgot to display my badge
- can they make a ruling that I can only forget once in my lifetime?
(seems unreasonable to me)
2) There is no sign that says Blue Badges must be displayed merely that
there is "Free Parking for Blue Badge Holders" - I am a blue badge
holder (which they already know because of last Julys correspondence)
3) It says on their sign that free parking for blue badge holders has
"No Time Limit", therefore once they have acknowledged my badge as they
did last July I can come and go as I please?
I'd be grateful for any help or advice - I realise that if I hadn't
forgotten it wouldn't have happen but these things happen and I feel
being find £120 simply for a memory lapse is not reasonable!
Alex Heney
<ellio...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Hi,
>
>I parked in a council owned car park recently but forgot to put my blue
>badge in the window and consequently received a parking ticket.
>
>Last July I did exactly the same thing (doh!), wrote to the ticket
>issuer and they cancelled the ticket and stated that they would not do
>the same again.
>
>
>I have written a begging letter but they say that as they let me off
>before the ticket still stands.
>
>I would like to know if I can challenge the ticket on any of the
>following grounds
>
>1) They cancelled a PCN last July because I forgot to display my badge
>- can they make a ruling that I can only forget once in my lifetime?
>(seems unreasonable to me)
>
Cancelling is entirely at their discretion. They did not have to do so
the first time, and having warned you they would not do so again, are
fully within their rights.
>2) There is no sign that says Blue Badges must be displayed merely that
>there is "Free Parking for Blue Badge Holders" - I am a blue badge
>holder (which they already know because of last Julys correspondence)
>
There doesn't need to be any sign. It is part of the conditions of use
of the blue badge itself.
>3) It says on their sign that free parking for blue badge holders has
>"No Time Limit", therefore once they have acknowledged my badge as they
>did last July I can come and go as I please?
>
No.
The badge has to be displayed.
>
>I'd be grateful for any help or advice - I realise that if I hadn't
>forgotten it wouldn't have happen but these things happen and I feel
>being find £120 simply for a memory lapse is not reasonable!
>
Perhaps that will make sure you remember next time.
Pay it quickly, before it turns into £120 - it should only be £60 if
paid early.
There *are* people who will lend their badge to others (which is not
allowed, of course), then park themselves without displaying it,
relying on the defence that they "just forgot". While I am not
suggesting you are one of those, the council have to attempt to
prevent that sort of abuse, and repeated infringements are a possible
indicator.
--
Alex Heney, Global Villager
UNIX is a computer virus with a user interface.
To reply by email, my address is alexATheneyDOTplusDOTcom
Richard Faulkner
elliott131 <ellio...@hotmail.com> writes
>I'd be grateful for any help or advice - I realise that if I hadn't
>forgotten it wouldn't have happen but these things happen and I feel
>being find £120 simply for a memory lapse is not reasonable!
When things like this happen to me I NEVER FORGET AGAIN <g>
--
Richard Faulkner
Pindu
elliott131 wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I parked in a council owned car park recently but forgot to put my blue
> badge in the window and consequently received a parking ticket.
>
> Last July I did exactly the same thing (doh!), wrote to the ticket
> issuer and they cancelled the ticket and stated that they would not do
> the same again.
>
>
> I have written a begging letter but they say that as they let me off
> before the ticket still stands.
>
> I would like to know if I can challenge the ticket on any of the
> following grounds
>
> 1) They cancelled a PCN last July because I forgot to display my badge
> - can they make a ruling that I can only forget once in my lifetime?
> (seems unreasonable to me)
doesnt seem unreasonable to me, imo your lucky you got off the first
one free.
how many times is deemed reasonable to forget in a life time? then add
one to that number ...is that still reasonable?
> 2) There is no sign that says Blue Badges must be displayed merely that
> there is "Free Parking for Blue Badge Holders" - I am a blue badge
> holder (which they already know because of last Julys correspondence)
Whats the point of having a blue badge? when you get a ticket, just
tell them you have a blue badge and they'll cancel! great!
> 3) It says on their sign that free parking for blue badge holders has
> "No Time Limit", therefore once they have acknowledged my badge as they
> did last July I can come and go as I please?
> I'd be grateful for any help or advice - I realise that if I hadn't
> forgotten it wouldn't have happen but these things happen and I feel
> being find £120 simply for a memory lapse is not reasonable!
maybe a fine will remind you, not to do it again.
Rob
||
||| 2) There is no sign that says Blue Badges must be displayed merely
||| that there is "Free Parking for Blue Badge Holders" - I am a blue
||| badge holder (which they already know because of last Julys
||| correspondence)
|||
||
|| There doesn't need to be any sign. It is part of the conditions of
|| use of the blue badge itself.
The BB scheme does not operate in off-road car parks, so it would be up to
the council to specify its own criteria for the waiving of parking charges.
If they require holders to display their badges, then there should be a sign
to that effect. The only mention in the scheme's own conditions regarding
car parks is that the badge should be displayed if a disabled bay is being
used, which AFAICS did not apply to the OP.
If the OP checks and makes certain that there was no sign specifying the
requirement to display, then he may have a case, IMO.
--
Rob
Alan Holmes
"Alex Heney" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:hcnr62l5eu99agvln...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 19 May 2006 14:25:03 +0100, "elliott131"
> <ellio...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Hi,
>>
>>I parked in a council owned car park recently but forgot to put my blue
>>badge in the window and consequently received a parking ticket.
>>
>>Last July I did exactly the same thing (doh!), wrote to the ticket
>>issuer and they cancelled the ticket and stated that they would not do
>>the same again.
>>
>
> Perhaps that will make sure you remember next time.
>
> Pay it quickly, before it turns into £120 - it should only be £60 if
> paid early.
>
> There *are* people who will lend their badge to others (which is not
> allowed, of course), then park themselves without displaying it,
> relying on the defence that they "just forgot". While I am not
> suggesting you are one of those, the council have to attempt to
> prevent that sort of abuse, and repeated infringements are a possible
> indicator.
The biggest problem with the abuse of blue badges, is the requirement that
the date of expiry has to be displayed, but the owners picture is on the
reverse, if the rules were, that the picure had to be displayed it would
stop a lot of abuse.
If the date of expiry is SO important, why the hell don't they put that on
the side where the picture is?
Alan
Mike Bristow
Alan Holmes <alan....@virgin.net> wrote:
> The biggest problem with the abuse of blue badges, is the requirement that
> the date of expiry has to be displayed, but the owners picture is on the
> reverse, if the rules were, that the picure had to be displayed it would
> stop a lot of abuse.
I doubt it.
Most of the time that a car is parked the occupants are not present; so
there is noone to compare the photo to.
If the occupants are there, then a traffic warden can always say
"'scuse me, but can I see the photo". (Of course, it doesn't show
abuse if the photo doesn't match any occupant of the car)
> If the date of expiry is SO important, why the hell don't they put
> that on the side where the picture is?
Because the photo is almost totally pointless, AFAICS.
--
I don't play The Game - it's for five-year-olds with delusions of adulthood.
John Adams
>> <ellio...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Hi,
>>>
>>>I parked in a council owned car park recently but forgot to put my blue
>>>badge in the window and consequently received a parking ticket.
>>>
You are being somewhat disingenuous.
You are guilty of exactly the same offence as an able bodied driver
who "forgets" to pay and display. Your chances of getting away with it
twice are not high.
If you really cannot afford the fine then a groveling letter might
work but I would think that a letter along the lines of " I am the
world's greatest Barrack Room Lawyer and here are fifteen reasons why
I have outwitted you" would be counter productive.
Gaz
> Hi,
>
>
> 1) They cancelled a PCN last July because I forgot to display my badge
> - can they make a ruling that I can only forget once in my lifetime?
> (seems unreasonable to me)
Well, it seems perfectly reasonable. They let you off as a courtesy. You
agreed to the terms and conditions of parking in their council car park, be
grateful you get it for free, everybody else has to pay for it, all they ask
you to do is show your blue badge.
> 2) There is no sign that says Blue Badges must be displayed merely that
> there is "Free Parking for Blue Badge Holders" - I am a blue badge
> holder (which they already know because of last Julys correspondence)
And the parking inspector is supposed to read your mind? FFS.
>
> I'd be grateful for any help or advice - I realise that if I hadn't
> forgotten it wouldn't have happen but these things happen and I feel
> being find £120 simply for a memory lapse is not reasonable!
A simple 'memory lapse', uhm do you think that would work if i tried to
avoid paying for public transport?
Gaz
Marcus Fox
>"elliott131" <ellio...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:1148044961.9...@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>Hi,
>
>I parked in a council owned car park recently but forgot to put my blue
>badge in the window and consequently received a parking ticket.
>
>Last July I did exactly the same thing (doh!), wrote to the ticket
>issuer and they cancelled the ticket and stated that they would not do
>the same again.
>
>before the ticket still stands.
If they take you to court to enforce payment, then they will look very
stupid if you turn up there with your blue badge that was valid at the time
of the offence.
Marcus
Nick
technicalities.
The Council always responds that they are letting me off on that particular
occasion.
It is reasonable to assume that if a person is regularly obtaining PCN's
that the Council might not look so kindly of repetition of hard luck
excuses.
I would be interested in asking what it was the Council said that "they
would not do again" - never?
This then would surely apply to you and anyone else who forgot to display
their Blue Badge.
It would rather make a nonsense of the Blue Badge system. You needn't ever
worry about displaying it.
Nick
"elliott131" <ellio...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1148044961.9...@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Rob
|| No they wont.
|| It is a specific condition of being issued with a BB that it is
|| displayed every time it is used, whether on private or public ground
Got a cite for that? (other than the one you posted previously that doesn't
in fact say that).
--
Rob
Bystander
"Rob" <rsvptorob-u...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:VsmdneomSOy...@bt.com...
Well if you feel like taking my word for it, as a JP and the spouse of a
Blue Badge holder, that's right. To get the benefits of the badge it has to
be properly displayed, photo side down, with the timer wheel if appropriate.
No display, no benefits = Ticket.
Alex Heney
Why?
They will be correct, and will almost certainly win, since the
"enforcement officer" giving the ticket will have photographed the
vehicle to show there was no badge visible.
--
Alex Heney, Global Villager
If you don't like the news, go out and make some of your own.
Jez T
"Tone" <to...@spamcop.net> wrote in message
>>If they take you to court to enforce payment, then they will look very
>>stupid if you turn up there with your blue badge that was valid at the
>>time
>>of the offence.
>>
>>Marcus
>>
> It is a specific condition of being issued with a BB that it is
> displayed every time it is used, whether on private or public ground
What is to stop the OP from CLAIMING that the badge was displayed? (If and
when this gets to court)
What proof does the council have that the badge was not there? It is quite
possible that the person who issued the ticket might have 'missed' it.
Alex Heney
<http://www.swindon.gov.uk/bluebadgeschemebooklet.pdf>
(although the link I have given is from Swindon, it is a department of
Transport booklet)
Part of section 6 says
----------------------------------------------------------------
The Scheme does not apply in off-street car parks. However, some
may provide spaces for disabled people. You should check the signs
to see what concessions are available, and whether Blue Badge holders
have to pay. Always display your Blue Badge when occupying one
of these spaces.
---------------------------------------------------------------
--
Alex Heney, Global Villager
My reality check just bounced.
Gordon
<tur...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:k6o17257csft2lno8...@4ax.com...
>
> Good job you are only a JP and not a Judge. You are wrong. The BB has
> no official standing on private land such as a council car park other
> than as a concession by the council/land owner.
So no good complaining to Asdas when I see someone parked in a disabled bay
with no blue badge then?
Although the BLUE BADGE HANDBOOK does have this to say about LA car parks
under the heading:
Other concessions for badge holders:
In many areas local authorities provide reserved parking places for badge
holders. You should use these spaces in preference to parking on yellow
lines. Local authorities may impose a time limit on the use of such spaces.
You must always display a valid badge when occupying one of these spaces,
and if a time limit is
in force a parking disc must also be displayed. Some local authorities also
waive charges in their own off street car parks. You are advised to check
the notices in the car park to see if, and where, you can park free of
charge.
Alex Heney
>On Sun, 21 May 2006 22:35:03 +0100, "Bystander"
><byst...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
>
>>> Got a cite for that? (other than the one you posted previously that
>>> doesn't
>>> in fact say that).
>>
>>Well if you feel like taking my word for it, as a JP and the spouse of a
>>Blue Badge holder, that's right. To get the benefits of the badge it has to
>>be properly displayed, photo side down, with the timer wheel if appropriate.
>>No display, no benefits = Ticket.
>
>Good job you are only a JP and not a Judge. You are wrong. The BB has
>no official standing on private land such as a council car park other
>than as a concession by the council/land owner.
You are wrong.
--
Alex Heney, Global Villager
Never use a preposition to end a sentence with.
Alex Heney
>On Sun, 21 May 2006 19:25:02 +0100, "Nick" <tulse0...@yahoo.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>It would rather make a nonsense of the Blue Badge system. You needn't ever
>>worry about displaying it.
>
>The BB system does not apply to private/council owned land/car parks.
You still have to display it if those car parks offer concessions or
special bays for BB holders.
--
Alex Heney, Global Villager
It's okay to be ugly...but aren't you overdoing it?
Rob
|| On Sun, 21 May 2006 20:20:05 +0100, "Rob"
|| <rsvptorob-u...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
||
||| Tone wrote:
|||
||||| No they wont.
||||| It is a specific condition of being issued with a BB that it is
||||| displayed every time it is used, whether on private or public
||||| ground
|||
||| Got a cite for that? (other than the one you posted previously that
||| doesn't in fact say that).
||
|| <http://www.swindon.gov.uk/bluebadgeschemebooklet.pdf>
|| (although the link I have given is from Swindon, it is a department
|| of Transport booklet)
||
|| Part of section 6 says
|| ----------------------------------------------------------------
|| The Scheme does not apply in off-street car parks.
This is the most important part, and is the point that appears lost on some
posters. This means that neither the BB scheme, nor its rules and conditions
of use apply in off street car parks and private property, such as my
driveway and Asda's car park. Both Asda and myself however are free to
create our own rules regarding BB holders should we wish to do so, but we
ought to specify what they are if we expect people to abide by them.
|| However, some
|| may provide spaces for disabled people.
This refers not to any generally available space, but to specifically
allocated and marked bays within said car parks.
|| You should check the signs
|| to see what concessions are available, and whether Blue Badge holders
|| have to pay.
This confirms that councils and others offering concessions *outside* of the
BB scheme set their own qualifying criteria, and most importantly (wrt the
Op's post) the signs should specify whether the badge must be displayed in
order to qualify for the concessions. If they don't, then the user cannot be
in breach of a condition that does not exist. It's no use relying on the
conditions of the BB scheme itself, since they don't apply.
|| Always display your Blue Badge when occupying one
|| of these spaces.
The OP gave no indication that he used a marked space. Even if he had,
without a specific condition to display his badge being broken, I see no
basis to impose a penalty charge.
--
Rob
Alex Heney
He will have taken photographs.
That is now standard practice when issuing this type of ticket.
--
Alex Heney, Global Villager
Never use a preposition to end a sentence with.
Rob
If those are the conditions specified by the car park owner then that is
entirely correct and is not disputed. What *is* disputed, is that if no such
condition is specified, the car park operator can fall back on the general
conditions of the BB scheme in a place where that scheme has no validity.
--
Rob
Alex Heney
<rsvptorob-u...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>Alex Heney wrote:
>|| On Sun, 21 May 2006 20:20:05 +0100, "Rob"
>|| <rsvptorob-u...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>||
<snip>
>
>|| Always display your Blue Badge when occupying one
>|| of these spaces.
>
>
>The OP gave no indication that he used a marked space. Even if he had,
>without a specific condition to display his badge being broken, I see no
>basis to impose a penalty charge.
Sorry, but I disagree.
It must be an implied term that if you are a BB holder, you show that
fact in order to get the benefit, even if it does not specifically
state that fact on the signs.
That is just so obvious that I am sure it would pass the "officious
bystander" test.
Particularly since the OP will have received the above booklet or
similar with his badge.
--
Alex Heney, Global Villager
Crime doesn't pay... does that mean my job is a crime?
Nick
> On Sun, 21 May 2006 22:55:03 +0100, tur...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 21 May 2006 19:25:02 +0100, "Nick" <tulse0...@yahoo.co.uk>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>It would rather make a nonsense of the Blue Badge system. You needn't
>>>ever
>>>worry about displaying it.
>>
>>The BB system does not apply to private/council owned land/car parks.
>
>
> You still have to display it if those car parks offer concessions or
> special bays for BB holders.
And one would expect the Council or its agents to operate under similar (not
the same) guidance - and presumably the Council/agents would not be seem to
be operating in an arbitrary fashion - they would have some kind of
operational procedures in such cases which no doubt one could request to see
under FoI (if one was so minded).
Nick
Bystander
displayed every time it is used, whether on private or public
If it's in a place that doesn't recognise it, then it isn't being 'used'.
This is a vast amount of bandwidth being used for a very simple point. If
you don't display a badge where it is required, you get a ticket. I don't
have a problem with that, and neither, I suspect, do most of the population.
m...@privacy.net
>On Sun, 21 May 2006 22:35:03 +0100, "Bystander"
><byst...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
>
>>> Got a cite for that? (other than the one you posted previously that
>>> doesn't
>>> in fact say that).
>>
>>Well if you feel like taking my word for it, as a JP and the spouse of a
>>Blue Badge holder, that's right. To get the benefits of the badge it has to
>>be properly displayed, photo side down, with the timer wheel if appropriate.
>>No display, no benefits = Ticket.
>
>Good job you are only a JP and not a Judge. You are wrong. The BB has
>no official standing on private land such as a council car park other
>than as a concession by the council/land owner.
>pete
That is totally incorrect - if the "private land" decide that it has
standing - then it has standing; and the "private land" can take any
action which is appropriate and legal - eg clamping the car and
charging penalties.
m...@privacy.net
>On Mon, 22 May 2006 01:00:10 +0100, "Gordon" <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>>
>><tur...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:k6o17257csft2lno8...@4ax.com...
>>
>>>
>>> Good job you are only a JP and not a Judge. You are wrong. The BB has
>>> no official standing on private land such as a council car park other
>>> than as a concession by the council/land owner.
>>
>>So no good complaining to Asdas when I see someone parked in a disabled bay
>>with no blue badge then?
>
>Yes it is OK to complain to ASDA but not to the BB scheme. What ASDA
>do is their own business.
Exactly - and no-one suggested complaining to the BB scheme - if
however ASDA decide to make it one of their "rules" that cars in
disabled bays MUST have a properly displayed BB - then that is the
case and you could be clamped if you ignored it.
Gordon
<tur...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:pib272pocfo78m26v...@4ax.com...
> >news:k6o17257csft2lno8...@4ax.com...
> >
> >>
> >> Good job you are only a JP and not a Judge. You are wrong. The BB has
> >> no official standing on private land such as a council car park other
> >> than as a concession by the council/land owner.
> >
> >So no good complaining to Asdas when I see someone parked in a disabled
bay
> >with no blue badge then?
>
> do is their own business.
Correct. It is their business.
> >Although the BLUE BADGE HANDBOOK does have this to say about LA car parks
> >under the heading:
> >
> >Other concessions for badge holders:
> >
> >In many areas local authorities provide reserved parking places for badge
> >holders. You should use these spaces in preference to parking on yellow
> >lines. Local authorities may impose a time limit on the use of such
spaces.
> >You must always display a valid badge when occupying one of these spaces,
> >and if a time limit is
> >in force a parking disc must also be displayed. Some local authorities
also
> >waive charges in their own off street car parks. You are advised to check
> >the notices in the car park to see if, and where, you can park free of
> >charge.
>
> That is only for guidance and has no legal standing.
They lay down the conditions for using the BB scheme, as does the following.
"How to use the badge:
You must display the badge on top of the dashboard or facia panel of a
vehicle with the front of the badge (i.e. the side showing the
wheelchair-user symbol) facing forward so that the relevant details are
legible from outside of the vehicle WHEN USING THE PARKING BENEFITS (my
caps)."
m...@privacy.net
wrote:
>On Mon, 22 May 2006 02:20:04 +0100, "Rob"
><rsvptorob-u...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>Alex Heney wrote:
>>|| On Sun, 21 May 2006 20:20:05 +0100, "Rob"
>>|| <rsvptorob-u...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>||
><snip>
>
>>
>>|| Always display your Blue Badge when occupying one
>>|| of these spaces.
>>
>>
>>The OP gave no indication that he used a marked space. Even if he had,
>>without a specific condition to display his badge being broken, I see no
>>basis to impose a penalty charge.
>
>Sorry, but I disagree.
>
>It must be an implied term that if you are a BB holder, you show that
>fact in order to get the benefit, even if it does not specifically
>state that fact on the signs.
>
>That is just so obvious that I am sure it would pass the "officious
>bystander" test.
I do not think that you should call Bystander that - I have always
found him very helpful ;-)
m...@privacy.net
>On Sun, 21 May 2006 19:25:02 +0100, "Nick" <tulse0...@yahoo.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>It would rather make a nonsense of the Blue Badge system. You needn't ever
>>worry about displaying it.
>
>The BB system does not apply to private/council owned land/car parks.
>pete
Unless the private/council owned land/car parks decide that it does -
which is the case here.
The Wanderer
> It is a specific condition of being issued with a BB that it is
> displayed every time it is used, whether on private or public
> ground.
That may be your interpreatation but the DfT doesn't see it quite so
clearly where private car parks are concerned.
--
the dot wanderer at tesco dot net
Terry
Whilst I am loathe to inject a moral argument into a "legal" newsgroup:-
Every Blue Badge holder knows full well that to gain the benefits of a
Blue Badge, they must display it - technical nit-picking aside!
If, as has happened to me on two occasions, the holder omits to display
the Badge and receives a parking ticket then an attitude to take could
well be "I've saved hundreds of pounds in parking fees over the years and
had the wonderful facility of being able to park conveniently therefore I
will pay the parking fine and put it down to my own stupidity of
forgetting to display the Badge".
On both occasions, I DID write asking for the penalty to be waived - on
both occasions I was basically told that asking me to display the Badge
was not a huge imposition and I would be treated in exactly the same way
as a person who "forgot" to purchase a pay-and-display ticket! I
accepted that argument.
Terry
Nick
> On Sun, 21 May 2006 23:05:03 +0100, "Jez T"
> <Take-out-the-dashes@-plum-pie.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Tone" <to...@spamcop.net> wrote in message
>>>>If they take you to court to enforce payment, then they will look very
>>>>stupid if you turn up there with your blue badge that was valid at the
>>>>time
>>>>of the offence.
>>>>
>>>>Marcus
>>>>
>>> No they wont.
>>> It is a specific condition of being issued with a BB that it is
>>> displayed every time it is used, whether on private or public ground
>>
>>What is to stop the OP from CLAIMING that the badge was displayed? (If and
>>when this gets to court)
>>
>>What proof does the council have that the badge was not there? It is quite
>>possible that the person who issued the ticket might have 'missed' it.
>
> He will have taken photographs.
>
> That is now standard practice when issuing this type of ticket.
That might explain what the Council officer was referring to when I was
issued with two tickets for the same offence that he had looked at in order
to rescind one.
That begs the question as to why it went to the Director of Parking before
this was put into operation.
One might have thought that there would be a check against two notices
issued within a short space of time (ie a few minutes) by the same authority
for a similar offence.
I made contact with the Lib Dem spokesman on the Select Committee that was
hearing at the time about people's complaints against parking enforcement.
Nick
Nick
"elliott131" <ellio...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1148044961.9...@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Hi,
I parked in a council owned car park recently but forgot to put my blue
badge in the window and consequently received a parking ticket.
Last July I did exactly the same thing (doh!), wrote to the ticket
issuer and they cancelled the ticket and stated that they would not do
the same again.
I have written a begging letter but they say that as they let me off
before the ticket still stands.
I would like to know if I can challenge the ticket on any of the
following grounds
1) They cancelled a PCN last July because I forgot to display my badge
- can they make a ruling that I can only forget once in my lifetime?
(seems unreasonable to me)
2) There is no sign that says Blue Badges must be displayed merely that
there is "Free Parking for Blue Badge Holders" - I am a blue badge
holder (which they already know because of last Julys correspondence)
3) It says on their sign that free parking for blue badge holders has
"No Time Limit", therefore once they have acknowledged my badge as they
did last July I can come and go as I please?
I'd be grateful for any help or advice - I realise that if I hadn't
forgotten it wouldn't have happen but these things happen and I feel
being find £120 simply for a memory lapse is not reasonable!
Nick's reply:
This happens to people all the time.
About 20 years ago I was in Nottingham for the first time as a driver and I
received an on-the-spot fine for driving through a red light. I was not
familiar with the traffic layout.
A couple of years ago, I was in Croydon dropping someone at the station and
I didn't realise that I was driving through a bus-only lane. It wasn't
permitted for cars to go along that particular route.
I also travelled in a Bus Lane on New Years Eve thinking that it was a Bank
Holiday.
These are all lapses of one form or another and I naturally would have
avoided all of them.
No doubt as another poster has said many people absentmindedly forget to put
money in the parking meter.
I think that I am right in saying that the permit is not specific to your
car but to your use of the car. So only if you personally are using the car
are you permitted to take advantage of the permit.
Nick
Alex Heney
Indeed.
I was very careful not to capitalise it, just to be sure there could
be no confusion :-)
--
Alex Heney, Global Villager
There is an exception to every rule, except this one.
Derek Hornby
> This is the most important part, and is the point that appears lost on some
> posters. This means that neither the BB scheme, nor its rules and
> conditions of use apply in off street car parks and private property, such
> as my driveway and Asda's car park. Both Asda and myself however are free
> to create our own rules regarding BB holders should we wish to do so,
> but we ought to specify what they are if we expect people to abide by them.
The point is though, the BB *must* be displayed if any benefits for its
use are to be used.
So if Asda has parking bays for BB users, then clearly the BB *must* be
displayed.
Can you think of anywhere that has parking for BB holders, but the BB
doesn't need to be displayed?
Anyway note last line of the following:
Page 5 The Blue Badge scheme - Explanatory booklet
Where the Scheme does not apply
The Scheme does not apply on private roads.
The Scheme does not apply in off-street car parks. However, some may provide
spaces for disabled people. You should check the signs to see what concessions
are available, and whether Blue Badge holders have to pay.
Always display your Blue Badge when occupying one of these spaces.
Nick
"The Wanderer" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:16abb7gor2ut5$.1qg8xjdqjw5lh.dlg@40tude.net...
I am not quite clear what point you are making - and you have edited out the
last para of what The Wanderer said:
"If it's in a place that doesn't recognise it, then it isn't being 'used'.
This is a vast amount of bandwidth being used for a very simple point. If
you don't display a badge where it is required, you get a ticket. I don't
have a problem with that, and neither, I suspect, do most of the
population."
Seeing the DfT's position extends to over 500 words - which particular line
are you referring to.
It concludes:
"The Department is also supporting 'Baywatch', a coalition of the major
supermarkets and disability organisations (including the Disabled Drivers'
Association, Disabled Drivers' Motor Club and the British Polio Fellowship).
The campaign is committed to encouraging more protection of disabled
persons' parking bays in retail car parks from abuse by non-disabled
drivers.
Finally, Part 3 of The Disability Discrimination Act 1995 requires service
providers to take reasonable steps to ensure that disabled people do not
find it impossible, or unreasonably difficult, to enjoy the service on the
same basis as non-disabled people. This will have implications for car park
operators, who may have to demonstrate that as well as marking out disabled
persons' parking spaces, they have taken reasonable steps to ensure that
they are available to disabled people."
Nick
Derek Hornby
> That may be your interpreatation but the DfT doesn't see it quite so
> clearly where private car parks are concerned.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/lqjs8
But note page of the The Blue Badge scheme - Explanatory booklet
It clearly states:
"Always display your Blue Badge when occupying one of these spaces"
And it's just common sense anyway.
Derek
the Omrud
> "Rob" <rsvptorob-u...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote
>
>
> > This is the most important part, and is the point that appears lost on some
> > posters. This means that neither the BB scheme, nor its rules and
> > conditions of use apply in off street car parks and private property, such
> > as my driveway and Asda's car park. Both Asda and myself however are free
> > to create our own rules regarding BB holders should we wish to do so,
> > but we ought to specify what they are if we expect people to abide by them.
>
> The point is though, the BB *must* be displayed if any benefits for its
> use are to be used.
>
> So if Asda has parking bays for BB users, then clearly the BB *must* be
> displayed.
> Can you think of anywhere that has parking for BB holders, but the BB
> doesn't need to be displayed?
It is surely possible that there are parking spaces allocated for
disabled drivers in private car parks, where the driver is not
required to display any badge, but simply to be "disabled". At a
school, for example.
Does Asda have parking bays for BB holders, or merely for "disabled"
drivers? Supermarkets around here certainly have special parking
spaces for drivers with small children and there's no badge for that
AFAIK.
--
David
=====
replace usenet with the
Nick
<tur...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8pd472h1elqts3fov...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 22 May 2006 10:25:10 +0100, "Bystander"
>
>>It is a specific condition of being issued with a BB that it is
>>displayed every time it is used, whether on private or public
>>ground.
>
> pete
My father has been done for not displaying correctly ie not having the
correct side showing - so I think that you are wrong.
"Your vehicle cannot legally be wheel clamped on the public highway for
parking offences provided a valid Blue Badge is correctly displayed."
"Your duties as a Badge Holder"
"To reduce the risk of this happening accidentally, you should remove the
badge whenever you are not using the parking concessions. You must ensure
that the details on the front of the badge remain legible. If they become
unreadable, the badge must be returned to the local authority to be
re-issued.
Ensure you set your clock and _display your badge_ and clock clearly" (my
emphasis)
http://www.parkingforbluebadges.com/info/copy_of_Blue_Badge_Parking_Concessions
I think therefore that the case is fairly proven that if the badge is not
displayed that it is not being "used" and indeed if the badge is unreadable
that it must be replaced.
Incidentally the rules for using a Blue Badge vary by London Borough
http://www.parkingforbluebadges.com/boroughs.
Nick
Alex Heney
>On Mon, 22 May 2006 11:20:12 +0100, The Wanderer <m...@privacy.net>
>wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 22 May 2006 10:25:10 +0100, Bystander wrote:
>>
>>> It is a specific condition of being issued with a BB that it is
>>> displayed every time it is used, whether on private or public
>>> ground.
>>
>>That may be your interpreatation but the DfT doesn't see it quite so
>>clearly where private car parks are concerned.
>
>That is wrong too even though it makes my point it is never the less
>wrong here
> "In the case of local authority off-street car parks, parking place
>orders normally either make it an offence for someone not displaying a
>valid blue badge to park in a disabled persons' parking bay or make it
>subject to the payment of an "excess charge".
>
>It is not an offence and even Bystander would be hard pressed to find
>a law that said it was an offence. I wish it was an offence as in
>merka.
It *is* an offence in areas where parking has not been decriminalised.
--
Alex Heney, Global Villager
TV is chewing gum for the eyes.
Alex Heney
>On Mon, 22 May 2006 10:25:10 +0100, "Bystander"
><byst...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
>
>>It is a specific condition of being issued with a BB that it is
>>displayed every time it is used, whether on private or public
>>ground.
>
>No it isn't. Go find a quote for that.
>pete
The booklet has been quoted several times.
--
Alex Heney, Global Villager
URA Redneck if you've ever rolled your riding lawn mower
Alex Heney
>On Mon, 22 May 2006 23:15:10 +0100, the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>It is surely possible that there are parking spaces allocated for
>>disabled drivers in private car parks, where the driver is not
>>required to display any badge, but simply to be "disabled". At a
>>school, for example.
>>
>>Does Asda have parking bays for BB holders, or merely for "disabled"
>>drivers? Supermarkets around here certainly have special parking
>>spaces for drivers with small children and there's no badge for that
>>AFAIK.
>
>The OP made a similar point. The notice said for BB holders. It said
>nothing about displaying a BB.
That is VERY clearly implied.
If had just said for "disabled", then there would be an argument that
the badge would not need displaying.
But since it said "for BB holders", that obviously means that the BB
must be displayed.
--
Alex Heney, Global Villager
Women do come with instructions; ask them.
The Wanderer
> "The Wanderer" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:16abb7gor2ut5$.1qg8xjdqjw5lh.dlg@40tude.net...
>> On Mon, 22 May 2006 10:25:10 +0100, Bystander wrote:
>>
>>> It is a specific condition of being issued with a BB that it is
>>> displayed every time it is used, whether on private or public
>>> ground.
>>
>> That may be your interpreatation but the DfT doesn't see it quite so
>> clearly where private car parks are concerned.
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/lqjs8
>>
>
> I am not quite clear what point you are making - and you have edited out the
> last para of what The Wanderer said:
a) you have reproduced *all* that I posted
b) I *think* you mean 'of what Bystander posted'.
The remainder of his comments were irrelevant in respect of the link I
posted. He made a 'black and white' statement. I will repeat it for your
benefit.
> It is a specific condition of being issued with a BB that it is
> displayed every time it is used, whether on private or public
> ground.
The point I was making is that the DfT do not see it in quite such 'black
and white' terms, which was quite self-evident from a reading of that
document.
Rob
|| On Mon, 22 May 2006 23:15:19 +0100, tur...@hotmail.com wrote:
||
||| On Mon, 22 May 2006 10:25:10 +0100, "Bystander"
||| <byst...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
|||
|||| It is a specific condition of being issued with a BB that it is
|||| displayed every time it is used, whether on private or public
|||| ground.
|||
||| No it isn't. Go find a quote for that.
||| pete
||
|| The booklet has been quoted several times.
And each time it is, one wonders why the person quoting it can't understand
that it doesn't say that at all.
--
Rob
Gordon
<tur...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2ld47216hunvivq5k...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 22 May 2006 10:20:13 +0100, "Gordon" <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
> >"How to use the badge:
> >You must display the badge on top of the dashboard or facia panel of a
> >vehicle with the front of the badge (i.e. the side showing the
> >wheelchair-user symbol) facing forward so that the relevant details are
> >legible from outside of the vehicle WHEN USING THE PARKING BENEFITS (my
> >caps)."
>
> again.
Nope. It definately states "WHEN USING THE PARKING BENEFITS".
It surprises me that they go that far, seeing how obvious it should be to
any BB holder that that is what the badge is for. Why issue the badge at all
if it serves no purpose.
Gordon
<tur...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8pd472h1elqts3fov...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 22 May 2006 10:25:10 +0100, "Bystander"
> <byst...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
>
> >It is a specific condition of being issued with a BB that it is
> >displayed every time it is used, whether on private or public
> >ground.
>
> No it isn't. Go find a quote for that.
Will this do?
"Misuse of disabled parking bays
Blue Badge parking bays
It is an offence to park a vehicle which is not displaying a badge in a Blue
Badge parking bay."
Nick
<tur...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:vcd472tb67ne4k6v5...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 22 May 2006 10:20:08 +0100, "Nick" <tulse0...@yahoo.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>>And one would expect the Council or its agents to operate under similar
>>(not
>>the same) guidance - and presumably the Council/agents would not be seem
>>to
>>be operating in an arbitrary fashion - they would have some kind of
>>operational procedures in such cases which no doubt one could request to
>>see
>>under FoI (if one was so minded).
>
> There are two simple issues here. The OP had a BB which is all the
> notice required him to have. It said nothing about showing it.
Actually, we don't know either way. The OP in their original post wrote:
"I parked in a council owned car park recently but forgot to put my blue
badge in the window and consequently received a parking ticket."
The implication is that the carpark actually required display - otherwise we
are wasting time on this discussion.
>
> The other point is that councils or indeed private land owners can
> offer places for BB holders and demand they show them but that is
> absolutely nothing to do with the BB scheme which is solely for use on
> the road.
I never said that requiring display of the Blue Badge in carparks was the
same as the Blue Badge Scheme.
Nick
Alex Heney
the only people "wondering" that are not even attempting to use their
brains.
It most certainly *does* say that.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
The Scheme does not apply in off-street car parks. However, some
may provide spaces for disabled people. You should check the signs
to see what concessions are available, and whether Blue Badge holders
have to pay. Always display your Blue Badge when occupying one
of these spaces.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Now if you can find any other meaning to that last paragraph, I would
be interested to know how.
--
Alex Heney, Global Villager
A clean desk is a sign of a cluttered desk drawer.
Alex Heney
>On Mon, 22 May 2006 10:20:13 +0100, "Gordon" <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>>"How to use the badge:
>>You must display the badge on top of the dashboard or facia panel of a
>>vehicle with the front of the badge (i.e. the side showing the
>>wheelchair-user symbol) facing forward so that the relevant details are
>>legible from outside of the vehicle WHEN USING THE PARKING BENEFITS (my
>>caps)."
>
>That is only when using it on the road. Please read your booklet
Why don't YOU read it.
It also quite clearly states that it should be displayed when making
use of benefits provided for BB holders in other circumstances.
--
Alex Heney, Global Villager
When in doubt, think.
Alex Heney
That part is referring to on-street parking bays.
--
Alex Heney, Global Villager
Which way to Castle Anthrax?
Alan Holmes
"Rob" <rsvptorob-u...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:VsmdneomSOy...@bt.com...
> Tone wrote:
>
> || No they wont.
> || It is a specific condition of being issued with a BB that it is
> || displayed every time it is used, whether on private or public ground
>
> doesn't
> in fact say that).
It's in the rules!
Alan
>
> --
> Rob
>
>
>
Alan Holmes
"Gordon" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:4dcd5pF...@individual.net...
>
> <tur...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:k6o17257csft2lno8...@4ax.com...
>
>>
>> Good job you are only a JP and not a Judge. You are wrong. The BB has
>> no official standing on private land such as a council car park other
>> than as a concession by the council/land owner.
>
> So no good complaining to Asdas when I see someone parked in a disabled
> bay
> with no blue badge then?
Our local asda put up some signs saying non blue badge holders would be
clamped, it worked for a while until the signs dissappeared.
Alan
Alex Heney
>On Tue, 23 May 2006 13:50:04 +0100, "Gordon" <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>>
>From your link "The concessions only apply to on-street parking and
>include free use of parking meters and pay-and-display bays.
>Badge-holders may also be exempt from limits on parking times imposed
>on others and can park for up to three hours on yellow lines (except
>where there is a ban on loading or unloading or other restrictions)."
>
>Hopefully Bystander will read this before he jails someone:-)
There is, of course, no possibility of Bystander jailing somebody for
this.
I don't think there is even any chance of him being involved, since
they would all be civil cases.
--
Alex Heney, Global Villager
STATUS QUO is Latin for "the mess we're in."
Alan Holmes
Talking about blue badges, well we were, weren't we?
Where does one get those plastic covers that some people use?
Alan
Alan Holmes
"Alex Heney" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:1nl5725bped4ede0g...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 22 May 2006 23:15:19 +0100, tur...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 22 May 2006 10:25:10 +0100, "Bystander"
>><byst...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
>>
>>>It is a specific condition of being issued with a BB that it is
>>>displayed every time it is used, whether on private or public
>>>ground.
>>
>>No it isn't. Go find a quote for that.
>>pete
>
> The booklet has been quoted several times.
But he clearly has not read it!
Alan
Stuart McKears
That paragraph is advisory not mandatory as local authority disabled parking
concessions vary from area to area.
Some local authority parking regulations used to be, and still are, sloppily
worded and talk about concessions for disabled motorists with the assumption
that the only way to identify a disabled motorist is by the blue badge.
This an incorrect assumption as there is the often overlooked disabled road
fund taxation class.
Contrarily, some local authorities allow extra concessions for this group and
will not necessarily require the blue badge to be shown.
Once again it depends on the exact wording of the regulations and the parking
space.
An example of the type of sloppy wording can be found at
http://tinyurl.com/lt2nb which advises that if you have a disabled tax vehicle
you don't have to pay or display anything while if you have blue badge you have
to pay and display the blue badge. The problem is that you are automatically
entitled to a blue badge if you are entitled to a disabled tax vehicle so both
bits of advice apply.
You need, or get somebody to read for you, the regulations that are in force at
any off street car park.
In the 40+ years I've been a disabled driver, I've challenged several parking
tickets due to misleading or incorrect local parking regulations, as yet :-),
won every time.
regards
Stuart
m...@privacy.net
<snip>
>It only has legal weight when used on the highway or a highway parking
>bay.
>pete
If a supermarket clearly says that people parking in a disabled bay
MUST have a BB and adhere to the BB regulations then that is the case
and a transgressor could be clamped.
Do you, or do you not agree with this statement?
Gordon
<tur...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:jml672hn2lk1f9u8r...@4ax.com...
> bay.
Do you have a cite for that? Where is this written?
Him & Her
> Talking about blue badges, well we were, weren't we?
> Where does one get those plastic covers that some people use?
http://www.bluebadgenetwork.org.uk/ for the clear plastic type
http://shortlink.co.uk/8l0 (to ebay for a choice of leather)
or any decent disability group.
m...@privacy.net
<postmaster@!$!mckears.delobvious.com> wrote:
<snip>
>An example of the type of sloppy wording can be found at
>http://tinyurl.com/lt2nb which advises that if you have a disabled tax vehicle
>you don't have to pay or display anything while if you have blue badge you have
>to pay and display the blue badge. The problem is that you are automatically
>entitled to a blue badge if you are entitled to a disabled tax vehicle so both
>bits of advice apply.
The wording is NOT sloppy (see the quote) - it clearly says that if
you have a tax exempt Vehicle then you do NOT have to pay - you of
course may or may not have a BB in these circumstances; In the case
where you also have a BB, then you may chose where you park, in a BB
or not - but you don't have to pay
If you have a BB then you may park in a disabled bay - BUT you must
pay.
If you have a tax exempt vehicle AND a BB, then both bits of advice do
apply - but they are not contradictory.
==================================================
In car parks operated by Bournemouth Borough Council disabled must pay
in unless the VEHICLE is tax exempt. The Road Fund Licence will show
nil and the word disabled.
If you hold a disabled blue badget you may park in a disabled bay.
Please purchase a pay and display ticket and if parking in a
designated disabled parking space clearly display your disabled badge.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stuart McKears
If you have a tax exempt vehicle, you get a blue badge as eligibility for a tax
exempt vehicle gives automatic eligibility for a blue badge.
The fact that you are having to interpret those two paragraphs by adding "may or
may not" and "AND" suggest sloppy wording.
What it says is that
a) tax exempt vehicles don't have to pay.
b) Blue badge holders have to pay and display and can park in designated
disabled parking space
All the rest is your interpretation.
Your interpretation, also, assumes that a tax exempt vehicle can park in a BB
slot without showing a BB and without paying. This is not necessarily how others
interpret similar sloppily worded bye laws. I know of, at least, two cases
where tickets have been given because a BB hasn't been showing in BB space
though the vehicle has been tax exempt. In both cases, neither were Bournemouth,
the tickets, when challenged, were quietly dropped without explanation or
apology.
regards
Stuart
m...@privacy.net
<postmaster@!$!mckears.delobvious.com> wrote:
You may have a tax exempt vehicle - you do not automatically have to
have a BB, and you do not automatically have to display one.
>The fact that you are having to interpret those two paragraphs by adding "may or
>may not" and "AND" suggest sloppy wording.
I did NOT have to add the "may or may not" and AND - I thought it may
help your understanding - my words are not necessary in order to
understand without confusion what is being said:
Let me try again:
If you have a tax exempt Vehicle then you do NOT have to pay - this is
irrespective of whether you have a BB or not - it is possible that you
do not have one.
>What it says is that
>
>a) tax exempt vehicles don't have to pay.
>
>b) Blue badge holders have to pay and display and can park in designated
>disabled parking space
Correct
>Your interpretation, also, assumes that a tax exempt vehicle can park in a BB
>slot without showing a BB and without paying.
I most certainly have NOT said that - please point out where you think
I have said that.
Also, please can you give an example of how the instructions can be
misinterpreted - I do not believe that they can.
I standby what I said - the wording is not sloppy, it cannot easily be
interpreted incorrectly, and it does not need further clarification.
I was trying to add some clarification as I believed that you did not
understand what was being said.
Stuart McKears
>>==================================================
>>
>>In car parks operated by Bournemouth Borough Council disabled must pay
>>in unless the VEHICLE is tax exempt. The Road Fund Licence will show
>>nil and the word disabled.
>>
>>If you hold a disabled blue badget you may park in a disabled bay.
>>Please purchase a pay and display ticket and if parking in a
>>designated disabled parking space clearly display your disabled badge.
>>
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You said
>>>If you have a tax exempt vehicle AND a BB, then both bits of advice do
>>>apply - but they are not contradictory.
It is normal for drivers who have a tax exempt vehicle to have a BB
The rules in that para are quite simple
rule 1: If you have a Tax Exempt vehicle you don't pay
rule 2: If you have a BB, you pay, you can park in a disabled bay and if you
do, you must you display the badge
So if you have both, you have 5 choices on paying
a) You pay
b) You don't pay if you have a Tax Exempt vehicle
c) You pay if you have a BB
d) You don't pay because you have Tax Exempt vehicle even though you have a BB
e) You do pay because you have a BB even though you have a Tax Exempt vehicle
a, b, c are quite clear from the rules
However
If rule b takes precedence over rule c then d is perfectly valid
if rule c takes precedence over rule b then e is perfectly valid.
You claim, seems to me, to be that it is clear that rule b takes precedence over
rule c, how you come to that conclusion is beyond me. It's certainly not clear
from the quoted paragraph, you are just assuming that is the case. I consider
that rule e is as valid an interpretation of that paragraph as yours - i.e.
sloppy wording
You have four choices where you park
a) You can park anywhere
b) You can park anywhere except a disabled slot
c) You can park in a disabled slot
d) You can park in a disabled slot and have to show you blue badge
If you don't have a BB b is valid
If you have a BB a and d are valid
You seem to think that the wording is clear so what are your choices if you have
a) Tax Exempt vehicle without a BB
b) Tax Exempt vehicle with a BB.
My view is that in case a,
the wording could mean that you are committing an offence if you park in a
disabled slot because you're not showing a BB
and in case b
the wording could mean that you are committing an offence if you park in a
disabled slot because, even though you've have a BB and you're correctly
displaying it, you haven't paid.
Both of these are as valid as your interpretation.
regards
Stuart
Alex Heney
He comes to that conclusion on the basis that it is so utterly obvious
it is inconceivable it could not be the case.
And the first sentence of the first paragraph makes that completely
clear.
--
Alex Heney, Global Villager
A procrastinator's work is never done.
Stuart McKears
>He comes to that conclusion on the basis that it is so utterly obvious
>it is inconceivable it could not be the case.
>
>And the first sentence of the first paragraph makes that completely
>clear.
Really, how does the first sentence make that completely clear?
In the case of on the road parking, the BB takes precedence over Tax Exempt
vehicles, this used not to be the case.
Also, you will find that if you park a Tax Exempt vehicle in a disabled space,
you will find that the BB rule take precedence.
I thought that lawyers make quite a lot of money proving that the "blindingly
obvious" what not what a law meant.
However, my original point was about the sloppy language used not the way the
rules are actually implemented.
In this case, the correct words are on another Dorset council site
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In car parks operated by Christchurch Borough Council blue badge holders are
required to pay unless the VEHICLE is tax exempt. The Road Fund Licence will
show nil and the word disabled. If you hold a disabled blue badge you may park
in a disabled bay. If required please purchase a pay and display ticket and if
parking in a designated disabled parking space clearly display your disabled
badge.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Disabled parking in off street car parks is a minefield as every council has
different rules especially so if you have a tax exempt vehicle - some ignore it
completely, some require you to pay, some require you not to pay.
This is the same with the BB, some require you to pay, some require you not to
pay, some require you to pay at certain times, some have bays for wheelchairs
only, some have reserved bays.
It is necessary to read and understand exactly what a local authority's rules
are on disabled off street parking. This is especially true as the private
traffic wardens often see a BB holders as easy targets.
regards
Stuart
m...@privacy.net
Thank you for our explanation - I rest my case.
Alex Heney
<postmaster@!$!mckears.delobvious.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 26 May 2006 13:15:05 +0100, Alex Heney <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>>He comes to that conclusion on the basis that it is so utterly obvious
>>it is inconceivable it could not be the case.
>>
>>And the first sentence of the first paragraph makes that completely
>>clear.
>
>Really, how does the first sentence make that completely clear?
>
"In car parks operated by Bournemouth Borough Council disabled must
pay in unless the VEHICLE is tax exempt. "
So if you are disabled (i.e. a BB holder), you still have to pay,
UNLESS your vehicle is also tax exempt, in which case you don't.
--
Alex Heney, Global Villager
"There are lies, damned lies, and statistics." -Mark Twain
Stuart McKears
Stuart McKears
>On Fri, 26 May 2006 16:10:04 +0100, Stuart McKears
><postmaster@!$!mckears.delobvious.com> wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 26 May 2006 13:15:05 +0100, Alex Heney <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>
>>>He comes to that conclusion on the basis that it is so utterly obvious
>>>it is inconceivable it could not be the case.
>>>
>>>And the first sentence of the first paragraph makes that completely
>>>clear.
>>
>>Really, how does the first sentence make that completely clear?
>>
>
>"In car parks operated by Bournemouth Borough Council disabled must
>pay in unless the VEHICLE is tax exempt. "
>
>So if you are disabled (i.e. a BB holder), you still have to pay,
>UNLESS your vehicle is also tax exempt, in which case you don't.
I repeat, and this will be my last post on this subject, it says if you have a
Tax Exempt vehicle you don't pay, if you have a BB, you do pay.
You keep on adding words which aren't there. Of course they should be, because
the scheme is operated in the way you interpret it but that's exactly the point
I've been trying to make about sloppy language.
regards
Stuart
Stuart A. Bronstein
> Alex Heney <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>>>Really, how does the first sentence make that completely clear?
>>
>>"In car parks operated by Bournemouth Borough Council disabled
>>must pay in unless the VEHICLE is tax exempt. "
>>
>>So if you are disabled (i.e. a BB holder), you still have to pay,
>>UNLESS your vehicle is also tax exempt, in which case you don't.
>
> I repeat, and this will be my last post on this subject, it says
> if you have a Tax Exempt vehicle you don't pay, if you have a BB,
> you do pay.
I see your point. It might be confusing.
Look at it this way - they're not imposing a special charge on BB
holders - just saying that they pay like everyone else. But just
like everyone else, if your vehicle is tax exempt, you don't pay.
If the law didn't impose the charge on everyone subject to special
exclusions, but instead it only specified who would pay, then your
point would be valid and the rule would be so vague that it would be
more difficult to determine. But under the circumstances it's really
pretty clear.
Stu2
m...@privacy.net
<snip>
>I'm glad you now agree with me.
I most certainly don't - you have yet to answer the following from
back in the thread:
You said:
>Your interpretation, also, assumes that a tax exempt vehicle can park in a BB
>slot without showing a BB and without paying.
I most certainly have NOT said that - please point out where you think
I have said that - I am still waiting.
I am also still waiting for :
Also, please can you give an example of how the instructions can be
misinterpreted - I do not believe that they can; if of course you
can't give a simple situation where the instructions can be
misinterpreted, then perhaps they are not sloppy after all.
I look forward to you answering these two points.
Stuart McKears
I didn't say you said it, I said "your interpretation assumes".
I'm very sorry that you don't understand either my words or my reasoning behind
that statement.
I will repeat, the first sentence says you don't pay if you have a Tax exempt
vehicle, the second sentence says you do pay if you have a BB.
You say those sentences are linked by an "and", I suggest that they can be
linked by an "or".
However, the fact is that the words in those two sentences do not actually
address the situation when you have both.
Compare the Bournemouth paragraph to the Christchurch paragraph which does
properly address the situation when you have both a Tax exempt vehicle and a BB.
The Christchurch paragraph is unambiguous, the Bournemouth paragraph is sloppily
worded.
I'm very sorry that you don't seem to understand this or my previous post which
detailed, in depth, the various interpretations that could be put on those two
paragraphs.
Clearly, we will never agree on this so I won't respond to any further posts.
regards
Stuart
claireb...@gmail.com
That is now unlawful discrimination!!
And before anyone starts... it's a completely different neural process driving than remembering to display blue badge..