Official forms: PLEASE WRITE IN CAPITAL LETTERS USING A BLACK PEN

[D.M. Procida]

I'm helping someone with an LPA (lasting power of attorney) form.

It says very clearly on the first page: "PLEASE WRITE IN CAPITAL LETTERS USING
A BLACK PEN".

Unfortunately, some parts of it are not in capital letters, and one person
seems to have added their details in purple(!).

Any idea how much this is likely to matter in practice? Would it be better to
re-do those parts before submitting it?

The Court of Protection would have the answer, but it takes at least an hour
to get hold of them on the phone...

Daniele

[GB]

On 29/08/2022 19:35, D.M. Procida wrote:
> I'm helping someone with an LPA (lasting power of attorney) form.
>
> It says very clearly on the first page: "PLEASE WRITE IN CAPITAL LETTERS USING
> A BLACK PEN".
>
> Unfortunately, some parts of it are not in capital letters, and one person
> seems to have added their details in purple(!).
>
> Any idea how much this is likely to matter in practice? Would it be better to
> re-do those parts before submitting it?

Is it all clearly legible? Does the purple ink photocopy okay?

[GB]

On 29/08/2022 19:35, D.M. Procida wrote:

How urgent is the LPA? There's a bit of a backlog at the OPG, so there
could be a delay before they decide that they are going to reject it.

I'm not sure why the COP is involved?

[Martin Brown]

On 29/08/2022 19:58, GB wrote:
> On 29/08/2022 19:35, D.M. Procida wrote:
>> I'm helping someone with an LPA (lasting power of attorney) form.
>>
>> It says very clearly on the first page: "PLEASE WRITE IN CAPITAL
>> LETTERS USING
>> A BLACK PEN".
>>
>> Unfortunately, some parts of it are not in capital letters, and one
>> person
>> seems to have added their details in purple(!).

I thought it was now a mostly an online form with fewer parts that
needed to be written manually.

>>
>> Any idea how much this is likely to matter in practice? Would it be
>> better to
>> re-do those parts before submitting it?
>
> Is it all clearly legible? Does the purple ink photocopy okay?

On a classic old green illumination photocopier I would expect it to
photocopy almost like black ink. However I wouldn't put it past OPG to
reject the thing out of hand if the ink colour wasn't to their liking.

I think you have to ask them since no-one can know what they think.

On a more modern white light photocopier it could depend on the precise
shade of purple whether it is sufficiently dark or not to be clear.

Have OPG sorted out the problem of the LPoA controlled document ending
with several page N or N's all with different content yet?

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[notya...@gmail.com]

On Monday, 29 August 2022 at 20:25:40 UTC+1, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 29/08/2022 19:58, GB wrote:
> > On 29/08/2022 19:35, D.M. Procida wrote:
> >> I'm helping someone with an LPA (lasting power of attorney) form.
> >>
> >> It says very clearly on the first page: "PLEASE WRITE IN CAPITAL
> >> LETTERS USING
> >> A BLACK PEN".
> >>
> >> Unfortunately, some parts of it are not in capital letters, and one
> >> person
> >> seems to have added their details in purple(!).
> I thought it was now a mostly an online form with fewer parts that
> needed to be written manually.

Just the signatures, which I tend to do in dark blue on the originals so it is clear "wet ink" was used.

> >>
> >> Any idea how much this is likely to matter in practice? Would it be
> >> better to
> >> re-do those parts before submitting it?
> >
> > Is it all clearly legible? Does the purple ink photocopy okay?
> On a classic old green illumination photocopier I would expect it to
> photocopy almost like black ink. However I wouldn't put it past OPG to
> reject the thing out of hand if the ink colour wasn't to their liking.
>
> I think you have to ask them since no-one can know what they think.
>
> On a more modern white light photocopier it could depend on the precise
> shade of purple whether it is sufficiently dark or not to be clear.
>
> Have OPG sorted out the problem of the LPoA controlled document ending
> with several page N or N's all with different content yet?

I thought so - isn't it a six page document printed double sided on something like A1 cut vertically?

When I did multi-page contracts, each page was numbered "n of N" with space for the initials of the parties.

>
> --
> Regards,
> Martin Brown

[The Todal]

I think if the wording is legible there should be no problem.

I have yet to be convinced that there is much point in giving a LPA
(lasting power of attorney) or a living will.

My father, always keen to plan ahead, completed and filed a LPA which
meant that several of us were attorneys who could make decisions for him
if he became unable to make the decisions for himself. He did this at
least 10 years before he eventually died. But how would we ever have
decided that he was no longer of sound mind? If the decisions of the
attorneys had to be unanimous, how would we have reached agreement? If
they didn't have to be unanimous, whose wishes would have taken
precedence? I think what often happens is that the wife is, of all the
attorneys, the most reluctant to give up hope and to let go.

In a way, the LPA did come in useful, in a rather silly way. Eventually
my father was unconscious, at home and close to death. He seemed to be
having difficulty breathing but no medic had yet told us that the end
was nigh. His wife called NHS111 who in turn summoned an ambulance and
while we waited for the ambulance the call handler gave daft advice
about putting him in the recovery position - well, she wasn't to know.
The ambulance arrived and the amazingly nice paramedics examined the
patient and took a history from us. They tried to ring our GP surgery,
as usual there was no reply and they said this is typical of GP
surgeries nowadays. They said one option would be to take the patient to
hospital but he might die on the way, or else he might die on a trolley
while waiting to be seen. They said it wouldn't be appropriate to take
him to hospital and then, one of them asked hopefully if there was a LPA
in force. Yes, said his wife. That's good, said the ambulance man, no
need to show it to us, you have the power to make decisions so we'll
agree that we won't take him to hospital and we'll try to get the GP to
send someone to visit the patient.

The wife (now widow) believes that if there hadn't been a LPA her
husband would have made that futile and cruel journey to hospital by
ambulance but I don't believe it.

[notya...@gmail.com]

There are two LPA's, Health and Wellbeing and Property and Financial Affairs..

Whether the donor is sufficiently mentally capable (and it differs between the two) is usually determined by a doctor.

I had earlier EPA's for both my parents and these avoided huge problems for both in their later years and in one case allowed me to reverse out a ££££ phone scam.

I would have thought it unlikely that you would ever agree with anyone, however it is the donor who chooses their attorneys.

[Martin Brown]

On 30/08/2022 09:24, The Todal wrote:
> On 29/08/2022 20:08, GB wrote:
>> On 29/08/2022 19:35, D.M. Procida wrote:
>>> I'm helping someone with an LPA (lasting power of attorney) form.
>>>
>>> It says very clearly on the first page: "PLEASE WRITE IN CAPITAL
>>> LETTERS USING
>>> A BLACK PEN".
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, some parts of it are not in capital letters, and one
>>> person
>>> seems to have added their details in purple(!).
>>>
>>> Any idea how much this is likely to matter in practice? Would it be
>>> better to
>>> re-do those parts before submitting it?
>>>
>>> The Court of Protection would have the answer, but it takes at least
>>> an hour
>>> to get hold of them on the phone...
>>>
>>> Daniele
>>
>>
>> How urgent is the LPA? There's a bit of a backlog at the OPG, so there
>> could be a delay before they decide that they are going to reject it.
>>
>> I'm not sure why the COP is involved?
>
> I think if the wording is legible there should be no problem.
>
> I have yet to be convinced that there is much point in giving a LPA
> (lasting power of attorney) or a living will.

There is for the financial side of things - otherwise bills go unpaid
and very expensive Court of Protection procedures get invoked. I'm
unsure what happens if the person who has lost capacity has no ability
to pay for that. I'm less convinced on the medical side where I found
the medics teams to be generally helpful (social services were not) with
or without the LPoA.

>
> My father, always keen to plan ahead, completed and filed a LPA which
> meant that several of us were attorneys who could make decisions for him
> if he became unable to make the decisions for himself. He did this at
> least 10 years before he eventually died. But how would we ever have
> decided that he was no longer of sound mind? If the decisions of the
> attorneys had to be unanimous, how would we have reached agreement? If
> they didn't have to be unanimous, whose wishes would have taken
> precedence? I think what often happens is that the wife is, of all the
> attorneys, the most reluctant to give up hope and to let go.

The one that triggered my invoking my fathers LPoA was that the bank
would no longer accept his signature as being his. They had a point his
coordination had gone to the point where it looked nothing like it.

Even with the LPoA sorting some things out proved to be painfully
difficult since his bank were not at all cooperative and would not
accept my authority until I had a formal diagnosis of Alzheimer's. This
took time and in the meantime various utility bills went unpaid. He paid
everything by cheque. Fortunately not for long enough to get cut off.

>
> In a way, the LPA did come in useful, in a rather silly way. Eventually
> my father was unconscious, at home and close to death. He seemed to be
> having difficulty breathing but no medic had yet told us that the end
> was nigh. His wife called NHS111 who in turn summoned an ambulance and
> while we waited for the ambulance the call handler gave daft advice
> about putting him in the recovery position - well, she wasn't to know.
> The ambulance arrived and the amazingly nice paramedics examined the
> patient and took a history from us. They tried to ring our GP surgery,
> as usual there was no reply and they said this is typical of GP
> surgeries nowadays. They said one option would be to take the patient to
> hospital but he might die on the way, or else he might die on a trolley
> while waiting to be seen. They said it wouldn't be appropriate to take
> him to hospital and then, one of them asked hopefully if there was a LPA
> in force. Yes, said his wife. That's good, said the ambulance man, no
> need to show it to us, you have the power to make decisions so we'll
> agree that we won't take him to hospital and we'll try to get the GP to
> send someone to visit the patient.

That was probably the best thing for the patient.

>
> The wife (now widow) believes that if there hadn't been a LPA her
> husband would have made that futile and cruel journey to hospital by
> ambulance but I don't believe it.

It is possible.

I don't think they have much leeway to make life or death decisions on
the hoof so if there is any doubt they have to take the patient to
hospital to be treated. Otherwise they can get irate families suing them
for not taking a dying man to hospital and all the bad publicity that
entails.


--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[The Todal]

I don't understand the final sentence - if you meant that I personally
am unlikely to agree with anyone, it wouldn't be a sensible remark.

I can see the value in having LPAs if there is a diagnosis of incipient
dementia or other disease that will eventually make it impossible for
the patient to make their own decisions.

Neither my father or his wife had such a diagnosis. Would it really be
prudent for everyone over a certain age, maybe 70, to give power of
attorney to their spouse and children just in case there are dementia
problems in the future? Of course, I'm not suggesting that this was the
scenario in the OP's question. But it was the scenario in my father's
case - he retained his full mental capacity until he was a month or so
from death, but evidently he wanted to prepare properly just in case.

[The Todal]

I hope not. I believe not. I think the ambulance crews are able to
assess whether it is in the best interests of a patient for him to
remain at home or go to hospital. Ideally they would speak to a GP who
has seen the patient recently and can advise on whether the patient is
undergoing final palliative care. Their job is obviously harder when the
GPs are never able or willing to answer the phone.

>
> I don't think they have much leeway to make life or death decisions on
> the hoof so if there is any doubt they have to take the patient to
> hospital to be treated. Otherwise they can get irate families suing them
> for not taking a dying man to hospital and all the bad publicity that
> entails.
>

The possibility of being sued is ever-present, of course. But how about
"we thought the patient really ought to be taken to hospital but his
distraught wife didn't want to let him leave the house and we decided to
let her wishes override what was (in our opinion) in the best interests
of the patient". How would that look in court? Even if they demanded a
signed form of release from the wife, who wouldn't be fully able to make
objective decisions, maybe the grieving sons and daughters would still
want to sue.

I would be interested to know more about the powers and duty of
ambulance paramedics. Here's another real life anecdote. Fifteen years
ago I get a phone call from a friend who lives in New York, who says
that his father hasn't answered the phone for several days and he's
worried about his father, who lives with a severely demented wife in a
suburban street. Could I (only 10 minutes away by car) call at the door
and check whether the father is okay? I made that journey. There was no
answer from the doorbell. I rang my friend in New York and asked if it
was okay to call an ambulance and he agreed. The ambulance arrived and
the crew asked me if I could give them permission to force entry. They
wanted someone to give permission, whether it was me (who had never met
the householders before) or a voice at the end of the line claiming to
be the son. So I said go ahead, force entry. The husband had died, his
wife was very distressed and half-starved, and it was in retrospect the
right decision. But if I had refused to give that "permission" I don't
know if they would have entered the house.

You can see how cases like this might happen:
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/met-police-peabody-trust-peckham-sheila-seleoane-b1013964.html

[Roger Hayter]

I think it may be sensible. Apart from the increasing prevalence of dementia
if one lives long enough, any serious illness can impair mental capacity. The
LPoA can be written to allow some or all of the attorneys to act in financial
matters even if the donor has *not* lost capacity. If one trusts one's
attorneys sufficiently this can be a convenience. Usually a medical report
satisfies the attorneys that the donor has lost capacity, but ultimately the
Court of Protection can decide if there is a continuing and expensive
disagreement.


--
Roger Hayter

[GB]

On 30/08/2022 09:51, The Todal wrote:

>>> The wife (now widow) believes that if there hadn't been a LPA her
>>> husband would have made that futile and cruel journey to hospital by
>>> ambulance but I don't believe it.

It sounds like it would have been futile to take him to hospital, but
I'm not sure how it could be cruel (to him) if he was unconscious?
Distressing for the family, though.

> I can see the value in having LPAs if there is a diagnosis of incipient
> dementia or other disease that will eventually make it impossible for
> the patient to make their own decisions.
>
> Neither my father or his wife had such a diagnosis. Would it really be
> prudent for everyone over a certain age, maybe 70, to give power of
> attorney to their spouse and children just in case there are dementia
> problems in the future?  Of course, I'm not suggesting that this was the
> scenario in the OP's question. But it was the scenario in my father's
> case - he retained his full mental capacity until he was a month or so
> from death, but evidently he wanted to prepare properly just in case.

You can't foretell what will happen, so I suggest everybody over the age
of 18 should have an LPA. The downsides are the modest cost and the
trouble with filling in the OPG's forms.

I'm sure those could be redesigned, so that all the signatures are on
one page, for example. And, a bit more common sense wouldn't go amiss at
the OPG. I remember MIL having her LPA returned by the OPG, because one
of the parties had written "I have known [MIL] personally for 40 years",
whereas OPG insisted that this should be changed to "I have known [MIL]
as a friend for 40 years".

[GB]

On 30/08/2022 10:27, The Todal wrote:

> The possibility of being sued is ever-present, of course. But how about
> "we thought the patient really ought to be taken to hospital but his
> distraught wife didn't want to let him leave the house and we decided to
> let her wishes override what was (in our opinion) in the best interests
> of the patient".  How would that look in court? Even if they demanded a
> signed form of release from the wife, who wouldn't be fully able to make
> objective decisions, maybe the grieving sons and daughters would still
> want to sue.

Surely, a patient is entitled to refuse transport by ambulance, as is
the attorney on the patient's behalf? Which is what happened.

[Martin Brown]

On 30/08/2022 10:27, The Todal wrote:

> On 30/08/2022 09:45, Martin Brown wrote:

>> I don't think they have much leeway to make life or death decisions on
>> the hoof so if there is any doubt they have to take the patient to
>> hospital to be treated. Otherwise they can get irate families suing
>> them for not taking a dying man to hospital and all the bad publicity
>> that entails.
>
> The possibility of being sued is ever-present, of course. But how about
> "we thought the patient really ought to be taken to hospital but his
> distraught wife didn't want to let him leave the house and we decided to
> let her wishes override what was (in our opinion) in the best interests
> of the patient".  How would that look in court? Even if they demanded a
> signed form of release from the wife, who wouldn't be fully able to make
> objective decisions, maybe the grieving sons and daughters would still
> want to sue.

The problem stems from unreasonable expectations of what a hospital can
realistically do (made even more difficult now by insane waiting times).

> I would be interested to know more about the powers and duty of
> ambulance paramedics. Here's another real life anecdote. Fifteen years
> ago I get a phone call from a friend who lives in New York, who says
> that his father hasn't answered the phone for several days and he's
> worried about his father, who lives with a severely demented wife in a
> suburban street. Could I (only 10 minutes away by car) call at the door
> and check whether the father is okay?  I made that journey. There was no
> answer from the doorbell. I rang my friend in New York and asked if it
> was okay to call an ambulance and he agreed. The ambulance arrived and
> the crew asked me if I could give them permission to force entry. They
> wanted someone to give permission, whether it was me (who had never met
> the householders before) or a voice at the end of the line claiming to
> be the son. So I said go ahead, force entry. The husband had died, his
> wife was very distressed and half-starved, and it was in retrospect the
> right decision. But if I had refused to give that "permission" I don't
> know if they would have entered the house.

Probably not or they would have had to come back with the police.

That was what happened with my aunt who lived alone in a block of flats
when she didn't attend her regular weekly pensioners lunch and didn't
respond to the doorbell or phone. Police forced entry and found the body
then got a locksmith to make it secure. I had to pick the keys up from
the police station when I got there. Door didn't look good afterwards.

> You can see how cases like this might happen:
> https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/met-police-peabody-trust-peckham-sheila-seleoane-b1013964.html

There have been a few where rent and utilities were all paid by direct
debit and despite neighbours complaining of the smell nothing was done.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Martin Brown]

Perhaps the moral of the story is if this ever happens to you and you
want to get them to follow your wishes say that you have an LPoA.
(they didn't actually check)

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Roger Hayter]

The attorney is not allowed to refuse urgent life saving treatment. For that
you need an advance directive from the patient, and even that is risky unless
it mentions the precise circumstances (which is somewhat unlikely).

The main risk to the paramedic not taking a patient to hospital is being
disciplined by his employer or struck off by his registration authority for
"neglecting his duty". This is most likely if a relative who said nothing or
wasn't even there crawls out of the woodwork and complains that the paramedic
"let my dad die". The tabloids love that - see recent farce about an
already-dead child on a ventilator.

--
Roger Hayter

[Roger Hayter]

On 30 Aug 2022 at 14:19:58 BST, "Martin Brown" <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk>
wrote:

The attorney holding an LPoA for welfare does not have the power to refuse
emergency treatment. The real answer is not to call an ambulance! They have
the skills to apply emergency resuscitation and transport. They specifically
have neither the skills nor the right to confirm the family's reasonable view
that the patient is dying ans should be left alone. If the family don't have
sufficient confidence in their own judgment (as most of us wouldn't!) then the
only solution that works is to ring a doctor who knows the patient.


--
Roger Hayter

[war...@hotmail.co.uk]

They initially rejected mine because I hadn't included a page that was basically their instructions, with nothing to complete. I had to resubmit it but they could have inserted the missing page themselves!

Jonathan

[The Todal]

On 30/08/2022 14:19, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 30/08/2022 10:27, The Todal wrote:
>> On 30/08/2022 09:45, Martin Brown wrote:
>
>>> I don't think they have much leeway to make life or death decisions
>>> on the hoof so if there is any doubt they have to take the patient to
>>> hospital to be treated. Otherwise they can get irate families suing
>>> them for not taking a dying man to hospital and all the bad publicity
>>> that entails.
>>
>> The possibility of being sued is ever-present, of course. But how
>> about "we thought the patient really ought to be taken to hospital but
>> his distraught wife didn't want to let him leave the house and we
>> decided to let her wishes override what was (in our opinion) in the
>> best interests of the patient".  How would that look in court? Even if
>> they demanded a signed form of release from the wife, who wouldn't be
>> fully able to make objective decisions, maybe the grieving sons and
>> daughters would still want to sue.
>
> The problem stems from unreasonable expectations of what a hospital can
> realistically do (made even more difficult now by insane waiting times).

Actually, in the case of my father, the problem was that he had very
recently been discharged from a hospital ward with no palliative care
plan in place, no guidance to his family about how to care for him or
how long he might last, and no advice about what to do if he becomes
uncommunicative and appears to have difficulty breathing.

I was there, and I tried for hours to get through to the GP surgery for
advice. The patient's wife was becoming increasingly distressed - should
we be doing something, anything, or just observe him while he died? So
there were no unreasonable expectations of what a hospital can
reasonably do, just a rather desperate attempt to get advice first from
NHS111 (who were useless in this situation and merely arranged for an
ambulance) and then from the ambulance crew who were sensible, had seen
this sort of thing before and fully understood "we don't want him to be
taken to hospital but is there something we should be doing?"

[billy bookcase]

"D.M. Procida" <daniele-at-...@invalid.com> wrote in message
news:jn4f6n...@mid.individual.net...

> I'm helping someone with an LPA (lasting power of attorney) form.
>
> It says very clearly on the first page: "PLEASE WRITE IN CAPITAL LETTERS USING
> A BLACK PEN".

The assumption being presumably, that some readers might not be familiar with the
term "BLACK INK"

And as the applicant is in no real position to argue.presumably, the defence of using
a BLACK PEN filled with BLUE INK, although technically correct, will fall on stony
ground.

bb