Hoping for some insight, please.
Ak
here, and please forgive my ignorance, but that's why I'm here.
I'm writing a novel with a main character that is trying to find out the
constituent makeup of society, via his daily routine/job, where he
interacts with the broad spectrum of society. The main character has a
job as a telephone repairperson, so the sheer number of homes and people
he sees and interacts with makes him want to turn the job into more than
"just a job". In one part, the main character has an interaction with a
man who is gay, and this man is attracted to other men with very feminine
qualities. The main character is mulling over the apparent paradox of
why this man desires other men with feminine qualities but is not
heterosexual. What is the difference between a man with very feminine
qualities and characteristics and a woman, in terms of attractions or
aesthetic? Could this other character also be attracted to women?
The situations in the novel are based upon actual events and real people,
but at the time I did not want to question this person about this, for
fear of offending or my question coming out wrong.
Can anyone give me any insight as to the motivation of the person my main
character meets, and the apparent paradox?
Again, I don't mean to offend, but thought this group maybe a good place
to help create a complete character, and plausibility.
Thanks,
Ak
patrick j
> Can anyone give me any insight as to the motivation of the person my main
> character meets, and the apparent paradox?
First, I wish you all the best with your novel. I don't think I'm going
to be of any assistance :( However I'm going to make a couple of
comments.
I think that sexualities come in many different shapes and form. Which
is a rather obvious thing to say I know.
I know women whose sexuality is rather like that of my perception of a
gay man, and so I tend to think of them as gay men in women's bodies :)
For very many years I found effeminacy in men to be a bit unattractive,
but latterly I've started thinking of it as being quite attractive.
I wonder if my increasing openness to effeminate men is because of an
emotional comprehension that all people have within them masculinity
and femininity?
There is a paradox, in that one would think that gay men would be
attracted to masculinity, and indeed very many are. If you look at
magazines for gay men they often contain ads for things which show
highly masculine images. However there are many gay men who do indeed
find effeminacy attractive in men.
I have thought though a bit about your character. Perhaps he is
attracted to the feminine in a sexual way, but actually finds the
feminine male provides a kind of hyped feminine for him, a sort of male
fantasy feminine perhaps?
--
Patrick
Ak
That's great - any insight helps to make the characters real and not
cardboard cut-outs! I'm really trying to walk around in each charcters's
shoes, as much as I can.
You did provide an excellent insight with two of your lines and if you
can expand upon them I'd really appreciate it:
1 emotional comprehension that all people have within them masculinity
and femininity?
- so you are attracted to how a male thinks, acts, sees the world, etc.
much like yourself, but physically you can find yourself preferring
feminine qualities (as an object of sexual desire)?
2. male fantasy feminine perhaps?
- that has me really stumped, but if you can expand upon this that'd be
great (and can I use it in my novel?).
Thanks, again for taking the time, and if you don't mind giving me a bit
more, it'd help.
Ak
BGN
>Again, I don't mean to offend, but thought this group maybe a good place
>to help create a complete character, and plausibility.
I'm assuming you're a man and that you're attracted to women.
But you're not attracted to *all* women, are you? Some men like women
to be very feminine (think "Audrey" the shop assistant from Little
Shop of Horrors) whereas others like their women to be rather butch
(think Xena Warrior Princess!) - I suppose this would be defined as
their "type" of woman.
So you just need to work out why you are attracted to a certain kind
of person whereas you really have no interest in another type of
person.
The kind of desire a man might have for a certain kind of man is the
same kind of desire that a man has for a certain kind of woman.
I remember reading, on usenet, about a conversation which had taken
place between someone and a psychologist about what men look for in
prison. I can't for the life of me find it, so I assume the post was
x-no-archive tagged meaning it would have dissapeared but the general
direction of the conversation that when men are without women in a
prison then they may take an interest in or befriend men in the prison
who are more feminine. Really annoyed that I can't find it as it's
exactly what you're looking for, but my Google history is full of "gay
prison feminine" searches!
After hunting around on t'internet I've managed to find the following
which is a US Human Rights Watch report about rape in prisons. Might
be useful in reading it even if it doesn't cover attraction or desire,
just rape
Quote: "Specifically, prisoners fitting any part of the following
description are more likely to be targeted: young, small in size,
physically weak, white, gay, first offender, possessing "feminine"
characteristics such as long hair or a high voice; being unassertive,
unaggressive, shy, intellectual, not street-smart, or "passive"; or
having been convicted of a sexual offense against a minor. Prisoners
with any one of these characteristics typically face an increased risk
of sexual abuse, while prisoners with several overlapping
characteristics are much more likely than other prisoners to be
targeted for abuse."
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/prison/report4.html
--
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Ak
Thank you for taking the time to respond.
I think that the Xena parallel is very good, but given that men and women
are anatomically different - but men and men are the same, do the same
exact rules hold? I don't disagree with you, but rather your comment
adds another level to this, for me.
And I hope you don't mind if I respond to your the rape in prison idea -
I wonder how much that could be part of the equation as I think for most
of these men they are trying to find a "female substitute", as well rape
is really about dominance, power, and ego rather than pure sex ie "Rape
in a Small Town". In that story, I don't think the rapist found his
victim sexually desirable, but rather needed to dominate and humiliate
another person for his own gratification.
Thank you again for your comments!
Ak
BGN
>Thank you for taking the time to respond.
>I think that the Xena parallel is very good, but given that men and women
>are anatomically different - but men and men are the same, do the same
>exact rules hold? I don't disagree with you, but rather your comment
>adds another level to this, for me.
I believe the exact same rules do hold. If a handsome man walks into
a room then the heads of both straight women and gay men turn.
If you find a woman attractive for various anatomical reasons then a
woman may also find her attractive for exactly the same reasons. The
same holds true for men.
Just because I'm gay doesn't mean I'm attracted to anything that
doesn't wear a skirt. And just because a man is straight doesn't mean
they're attracted to anything that wears a skirt. They've got to have
that something about them which you look for.
If you want to research this a bit more then I suggest you pay a visit
to somewhere like www.gaydar.co.uk and create a guest account, put
minimal details down and don't upload a photo just so that you are
able to browse the profiles of people there in a large town close to
you (for example) their profiles may have photos but to the right of
that is a hole host of other information like what their "role" is.
When I say role I basically mean "top or bottom" which translates to
"active or passive" at the bottom of their profile they say what
they're looking for. One can assume that the top/active person is
generally looking for a bottom/passive partner or perhaps another
'top'. Two passive people may not be all exciting in a one off fling
(which is generally what people on gaydar are looking for)
Some advice: People on gaydar can be seem to be complete sluts but you
need to understand that gaydar's tagline is "what you want, when you
want it" - it's not a 'dating' site as such, it's a 'I'm looking for a
fuck' site and therefore perfectly respectable and upstanding members
of society are pretty much staked out and ready to go, if you see what
I mean.
>And I hope you don't mind if I respond to your the rape in prison idea -
>I wonder how much that could be part of the equation as I think for most
>of these men they are trying to find a "female substitute", as well rape
>is really about dominance, power, and ego rather than pure sex ie "Rape
>in a Small Town". In that story, I don't think the rapist found his
>victim sexually desirable, but rather needed to dominate and humiliate
>another person for his own gratification.
If you read it all the way through it lists a number of examples, and
even letters received from prisoners which have been the subjects of a
rape.
What sticks out to me is that although anyone can be 'picked' for a
rape it seems to be that the Active/Top (to use the gaydar term) sees
a person who is apparently weak or has effeminate features and decides
they are the Passive/Bottom and they're far more likely to be raped.
One assumes that if two Active people in prison were at it it would
generally be sonsensual sex instead of being taken advantage of.
But I suppose that could open a whole can of worms when one suggests
Weak = Effeminate? And does that mean, in the real world that
Active/Top = man and Passive/Bottom = woman? I assume that is how it
generally is in the heterosexual world what with cave-man, who goes
out to strangle a goat or whatever to bring it to his cave-woman and
their cave-children.
So, if sexual orientation (and Gaydar!) truly reflect one basic part
of human life (sex) then there are both active and passive men and
active and passive woman. But some men prefer the company of XX
chromosomes (men) while other men prefer the company of an X&Y
chromosomes(woman). Oh, and let's not forget bisexuals, who must just
be greedy.
patrick j
> Hello Patrick,
> That's great - any insight helps to make the characters real and not
> cardboard cut-outs! I'm really trying to walk around in each charcters's
> shoes, as much as I can.
>
> You did provide an excellent insight with two of your lines and if you
> can expand upon them I'd really appreciate it:
I'll have a go, I don't know how far I'll get :)
> 1 emotional comprehension that all people have within them masculinity
> and femininity?
> - so you are attracted to how a male thinks, acts, sees the world, etc.
> much like yourself, but physically you can find yourself preferring
> feminine qualities (as an object of sexual desire)?
The exclusive attraction to masculine, a sort of classic gay male
position, is I think more contrived than your character possibly,
because rather than actually be attraction to a real masculine it tends
to be an attraction to a caricature of masculinity, a sort of
attraction to Rambo :) It is an attraction to a statement about what
masculine is or should be.
An attraction to men with some femininity does seem more balanced in fact :)
> 2. male fantasy feminine perhaps?
> - that has me really stumped, but if you can expand upon this that'd be
> great (and can I use it in my novel?).
If it makes any sense I'd be delighted for you to use it in you novel :)
A complaint from some feminists about transvestites and transsexual men
is that they build a fantasy feminine. The feminine to which they
aspire to is not the real feminine that actually exists but merely an
imagined feminine built by the male mind.
It could be that your character wishes to have a relationship with
someone who has this fantasy feminine quality. Not a transsexual as
such, but rather a man who is feminine but a femininity built from the
male mind.
--
Patrick
Ak
> It could be that your character wishes to have a relationship with
> someone who has this fantasy feminine quality. Not a transsexual as
> such, but rather a man who is feminine but a femininity built from the
> male mind.
>
Yes, you are totally right, it is from a male mind!
I really thank you and the other fellow who answered, and I think I have
more questions than when I started this dialectic - but I really see it
more now in terms of a duality, than simply a singular attraction.
Hope you don't mind if I come back here more more insight, and thank you
both for your time.
Ak