Knives....Again
Ian
conclusion was:
Sharp knives are best
Use a diamond sharpener to make a blunt knife sharp (but it leaves a burr)
Use a steel to put the final cutting edge on the knife
Over Christmas I have been looking at knives and asking more people about
them which has just led to more questions. The advice I was given was:
Avoid stainless steel knives as they cannot keep a cutting edge
Avoid ceramic knives at home as they easily break when abused (dropped etc)
even though they are gorgeous knives
Use a steel for sharpening
The I just read this in the weekend paper:
"Knives need work, however - A kiss of the sharpener every time they come
out to play - otherwise they quickly lose their edge. An old-style,
ribbed-steel sharpener is about as much use as a leather strop. Splash out
and get one made from industrial diamonds."
Which goes against the view that the diamond sharpener leaves a burr.
So this brings me on to my real questions,
* Should I start replacing my stainless steel knives?
* What is the most convenient way to maintain sharp knives
* How should I look after my blockwood chopping block (not a knife question
but related)
Ian
Dave Fawthrop
"Ian" <i...@nospamyoshian.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:yvE36.6855$8Y3....@news11-gui.server.ntli.net...
> * Should I start replacing my stainless steel knives?
http://www.sff.net/people/pff/steel.txt
has a long discussion on this, but refers to American grades of steel.
IMHO No! This is probably an urban myth from the early days of Stainles
Steels, early last century, when it may have been true.
As an ex-engineer, I can assure you that there are many many grades of
Stainless Steel. Some are better than others for knives. If your Stainless
Steel knives hold and edge long enough for you keep them.
On second thoughts, Send your old ones to me!
Dave F
Peter Parry
<i...@nospamyoshian.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>Sharp knives are best
Correct.
>Use a diamond sharpener to make a blunt knife sharp (but it leaves a burr)
Any sharpening process does, the normal progression is from a coarse
abrasive through finer ones finishing with something like a leather
which removes any final fine burrs. However you can go daft over
this, it's fine if you rely on knives for your daily trade and touch
them up every few minutes of use, not so good in most domestic
kitchens.
Americans in particular seem to treat knife sharpening as a religious
obsession and even have books on the subject so be careful with
terminology, "blunt" to them is often razor sharp to the rest of us!
>Use a steel to put the final cutting edge on the knife
Using a steel takes skill and a great deal of practice (as does using
the abrasive in the first place. Getting the right angle and
consistently keeping it is vital. Most people can't manage this with
hand tools and electric sharpeners which keep consistent angles are
better for most users.
>Avoid stainless steel knives as they cannot keep a cutting edge
No true at all.
>Avoid ceramic knives at home as they easily break when abused (dropped etc)
>even though they are gorgeous knives
Ceramic knives are a gimmick and best avoided anyway.
>Use a steel for sharpening
A steel doesn't sharpen it maintains the edge shape (hence its
frequent use by butchers). It won't restore a worn edge or one
damaged by impact.
However for many cooking applications you don't want a fine edged
hunting knife you want one with a coarse (by knife sharpening
standards) edge, it cuts most things better.
>"Knives need work, however - A kiss of the sharpener every time they come
>out to play - otherwise they quickly lose their edge. An old-style,
>ribbed-steel sharpener is about as much use as a leather strop. Splash out
>and get one made from industrial diamonds."
They are mixing up two entirely different processes here. For
kitchen knives, which should have a "coarse" edge, steeling is
probably not needed except in professional intensively used kitchens.
Abrasives remove material, Steeling doesn't and a "Diamond Steel" is
a bit of a contradiction in terms.
A round diamond impregnated sharpening device is what they are
talking about. Great if you can keep consistent sharpening angles,
less than worthless if you can't.
Don't forget that a thin bladed knife is more forgiving of poor
sharpening technique than a thick bladed knife.
> * Should I start replacing my stainless steel knives?
No.
> * What is the most convenient way to maintain sharp knives
a. A good electric sharpener.
b. Spend a lot of time learning how to get a consistent edge using a
diamond impregnated sharpener and use it frequently. DMT make the
best and are stocked by Axminster Power Tools (www.axminster.co.uk).
http://www.dmtsharp.com/products/ is also quite useful. Remember
though that diamond sharpeners are not cheap. A 12" "steel" will
cost you about GBP30, an 8" block about GBP80 (you will need a coarse
one of these - not a fine).
> How should I look after my blockwood chopping block (not a knife question
>but related)
Scrub and anoint with food grade mineral oil (Liquid Paraffin)
occasionally (just wipe over, leave to stand overnight and wipe off
excess in the morning).
--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/
pete69remov...@btinternet.com
one from Lakeland a few months ago and am VERY pleased with it (cost
about £25)
I have a set of not very expensive Kitchen Devil Professional knives,
and for years wondered why I couldn't get a good edge on them with my
ordinary steel. Then I bought a diamond steel and saw the light.
It takes a bit of getting used to, and I found that sharpening the way
the instructions suggested (hold the steel vertically with the base on
a solid surface and slice down towards your hand !!) did not work for
me and sounded potentially dangerous.
I hold the steel horizontally and with the heel of the knife by the
heel of the steel run the blade along the steel at an angle of about
15 degrees - imaging you're slicing a sliver from the steel, take
turns on each side of the blade, and repeat a few times. Just a few
strokes should do it, but do it regularly.
It really does work, I can cut rare roast beef as thin as paper and
cut tomatoes using only the weight of the blade.
I read somewhere that having sharpened a knife with a diamond steel,
you should then give it a few strokes with an ordinary steel to remove
the slight burr that the dimond steel creates. I gave my old steel to
my mum, so haven't tried it.
I've no doubt that some knife-nerds out there will tell me I'm doing
it all hopelessly wrong and condem me to the flames forever, but it
works for me.
A suggestion re your knife-block - consider putting the knives in
upside-down - ie with the blade pionting upwards, then you won't dull
the blade on the block each time you remove them, and the blade itself
is not resting on anything.
Happy New Year & Good Luck !
Pete
Kris Dow
>On Sun, 31 Dec 2000 11:11:26 -0000, "Ian"
><i...@nospamyoshian.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>Sharp knives are best
>
>Correct.
>
>>Use a diamond sharpener to make a blunt knife sharp (but it leaves a burr)
>
>Any sharpening process does, the normal progression is from a coarse
>abrasive through finer ones finishing with something like a leather
>which removes any final fine burrs. However you can go daft over
>this, it's fine if you rely on knives for your daily trade and touch
>them up every few minutes of use, not so good in most domestic
>kitchens.
>
>Americans in particular seem to treat knife sharpening as a religious
>obsession and even have books on the subject so be careful with
>terminology, "blunt" to them is often razor sharp to the rest of us!
This might explain a lot. My definition of "sharp" for a
kitchen knife is a good deal sharper than most other people, and as
a result other people in the kitchen (like the SO's mother) tend
to avoid *my* favourite knives like the plague. (Some of them
even prefer our extremely cheap serrated knives from the set that cost
10ukp for 12 knives and came with a knife block and a cutting board.
UGH.) There are some benefits to this...
>>Avoid stainless steel knives as they cannot keep a cutting edge
>
>No true at all.
>
If I remember correctly, the thing with stainless steel
knives (as opposed to carbon steel) is that they're harder, and
thus harder to sharpen in the home environment... But hold an
edge longer once they are sharpened... Whereas carbon steel
knives are softer and thus easier to sharpen, but dull more
quickly. (And also are prone to rust and discolouration if you
don't take proper care of them.) So the end result is that on
average a stainless steel knife is duller than a carbon steel
knife that is sharpened regularly before/after use.
I don't remember who told me that, though.
On the subject of good electric knife sharpeners- is
there such a thing? What might be a good brand/model to go for?
I want my 8" Henckels chef's knife back to it's original glory.
It's almost dull. (By my standards. <grin>) I read somewhere that
a problem with electric sharpeners is because of the way it
works, you can't get some designs of knife all the way in right
down to the base of the blade, so you will, eventually, end up
with an uneven blade because every sharpening takes off a little
metal, and it will eventually wear away.
-Kris
(Who got her knife as a present last Christmas and frightened the
beegezus out of the SO's sister with it. :)
Robert Goodrick
Ian wrote:
>
> I read the recent discussion on knives with interest and I believe that the
> conclusion was:
>
> Sharp knives are best
> Use a diamond sharpener to make a blunt knife sharp (but it leaves a burr)
> Use a steel to put the final cutting edge on the knife
>
> Over Christmas I have been looking at knives and asking more people about
> them which has just led to more questions. The advice I was given was:
>
> Avoid stainless steel knives as they cannot keep a cutting edge
> Avoid ceramic knives at home as they easily break when abused (dropped etc)
> even though they are gorgeous knives
> Use a steel for sharpening
>
> The I just read this in the weekend paper:
>
> "Knives need work, however - A kiss of the sharpener every time they come
> out to play - otherwise they quickly lose their edge. An old-style,
> ribbed-steel sharpener is about as much use as a leather strop. Splash out
> and get one made from industrial diamonds."
>
> Which goes against the view that the diamond sharpener leaves a burr.
>
Yes they do leave a burr, it was introduced for people who cannot use a
sharpening stone to put a edge on knives.
> So this brings me on to my real questions,
> * Should I start replacing my stainless steel knives?
No, the only thing wrong with stainless steel knives is that they are
hard to put a edge on if you do not know what you are doing. That said,
once they have an edge on them they will hold a edge longer than regular
knives.
> * What is the most convenient way to maintain sharp knives
It is easier for the regular person to use a diamond steel to put a edge
on the knives, but I would still use a regular steel for doing the
finishing touches
> * How should I look after my blockwood chopping block (not a knife question
> but related)
>
Depends on how much you use the chopping block, at work all we use is
HOT soapy water with bleach and a steel scrubbing pad.
Robert.
been in the meat trade 37+ years.
> Ian
Robert Goodrick
Peter Parry wrote:
>
> On Sun, 31 Dec 2000 11:11:26 -0000, "Ian"
> <i...@nospamyoshian.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >Sharp knives are best
>
> Correct.
As you said, Correct.
>
> >Use a diamond sharpener to make a blunt knife sharp (but it leaves a burr)
>
> Any sharpening process does, the normal progression is from a coarse
> abrasive through finer ones finishing with something like a leather
> which removes any final fine burrs. However you can go daft over
> this, it's fine if you rely on knives for your daily trade and touch
> them up every few minutes of use, not so good in most domestic
> kitchens.
>
Again as you say, a diamond steel eliminates the need from using a
wet/oil stone to sharpen a knife (in my words it should be called a
diamond sharpener), and a steel hones the knife (keeps the edge on the
knife). In 15 years of trying to teach one of my staff to use an oil
stone to sharpen his knives, I gave up (he was un teachable), to hone or
keep an edge on his knives it only took 1/2 hour. A sharp knife weather
it be at work or at home should ALWAYS be sharp, less chance of having a
bad cut (my wife will attest to this)
> Americans in particular seem to treat knife sharpening as a religious
> obsession and even have books on the subject so be careful with
> terminology, "blunt" to them is often razor sharp to the rest of us!
>
Americans do treat this as a religion as they do not seem to be able to
grasp the fundamentals of sharpening there knives. Blunt is when you use
sawing motions to cut through things.
> >Use a steel to put the final cutting edge on the knife
>
> Using a steel takes skill and a great deal of practice (as does using
> the abrasive in the first place. Getting the right angle and
> consistently keeping it is vital. Most people can't manage this with
> hand tools and electric sharpeners which keep consistent angles are
> better for most users.
99% of most people can be show how to keep an edge on a sharp knife in
less than 1/2 hour.
>
> >Avoid stainless steel knives as they cannot keep a cutting edge
>
> No true at all.
>
Agreed, once you have a good edge on a stainless steel knife it will
hold a edge longer, my dive knife has only been sharpened once in the
last 27 years although I have run it across a steel every now and then.
> >Avoid ceramic knives at home as they easily break when abused (dropped etc)
> >even though they are gorgeous knives
>
> Ceramic knives are a gimmick and best avoided anyway.
>
> >Use a steel for sharpening
>
> A steel doesn't sharpen it maintains the edge shape (hence its
> frequent use by butchers). It won't restore a worn edge or one
> damaged by impact.
>
True.
> However for many cooking applications you don't want a fine edged
> hunting knife you want one with a coarse (by knife sharpening
> standards) edge, it cuts most things better.
>
Not true, you need a sharp knife for all cooking applications. A hunting
knife in the correct sense is used for skinning the animal
> >"Knives need work, however - A kiss of the sharpener every time they come
> >out to play - otherwise they quickly lose their edge. An old-style,
> >ribbed-steel sharpener is about as much use as a leather strop. Splash out
> >and get one made from industrial diamonds."
>
Granted if you wont to sharpen the knife, but remember you still have to
use a steel to keep (hone) that edge.
> They are mixing up two entirely different processes here. For
> kitchen knives, which should have a "coarse" edge, steeling is
> probably not needed except in professional intensively used kitchens.
> Abrasives remove material, Steeling doesn't and a "Diamond Steel" is
> a bit of a contradiction in terms.
>
Ask any chief, they do not have coarse edge on there knives
> A round diamond impregnated sharpening device is what they are
> talking about. Great if you can keep consistent sharpening angles,
> less than worthless if you can't.
>
> Don't forget that a thin bladed knife is more forgiving of poor
> sharpening technique than a thick bladed knife.
>
Thin steel is harder to put and keep an edge on a knife than a thicker
one.
> > * Should I start replacing my stainless steel knives?
>
> No.
>
Agreed.
> > * What is the most convenient way to maintain sharp knives
>
> a. A good electric sharpener.
One of the worst things that you can use on a knife, they draw the
temper out of the steel thus ruining the keeping qualities of keeping a
decent edge on any knife, plus you wear away the knife a lot sooner.
> b. Spend a lot of time learning how to get a consistent edge using a
> diamond impregnated sharpener and use it frequently. DMT make the
> best and are stocked by Axminster Power Tools (www.axminster.co.uk).
>
> http://www.dmtsharp.com/products/ is also quite useful. Remember
> though that diamond sharpeners are not cheap. A 12" "steel" will
> cost you about GBP30, an 8" block about GBP80 (you will need a coarse
> one of these - not a fine).
>
Remember a coarse edge on o knife is the most dangerous, this I can
attest to. Jeanne (wife) cut two tendons in her finger and has a large
deformity in her finger due to a cut with a coarse knife, myself who
also had two tendons cut on a finger do not any deformity due to a sharp
knife.
> > How should I look after my blockwood chopping block (not a knife question
> >but related)
>
> Scrub and anoint with food grade mineral oil (Liquid Paraffin)
> occasionally (just wipe over, leave to stand overnight and wipe off
> excess in the morning).
>
I would only do this if the block was not being used that much, if it
was being used on a consistence bases, it should be washed with hot
soapy water with bleach in it and dried right away.
Robert.
37+ years as a butcher.
Robert Goodrick
No there is not, an electric knife sharpener is only for thoughts who
have a lot of money to buy new knives more often. They draw the temper
out of the steel, thus shortening keeping an edge on the knife. One of
the fellows at work uses one and has to sharpen his knives three times
to my one (I use a oil stone), plus his blade is a lot smaller than mine
(my knives are a lot older than his). Use a diamond steel to sharpen the
knives, then use a regular steel to hone (keep) your edge. Just remember
the length of the steel should be longer than your longest knife blade.
Robert.
37+ years as a butcher.
b a hunter
when we got home. I sharpened my knives with it yesterday and they're really
sharp now so I'd recommend it.
BA
Dave Fawthrop
"Robert Goodrick" <rgoo...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3A52E7EB...@home.com...
>
>
> Peter Parry wrote:
> >
> > On Sun, 31 Dec 2000 11:11:26 -0000, "Ian"
> > <i...@nospamyoshian.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > > * What is the most convenient way to maintain sharp knives
> >
> > a. A good electric sharpener.
>
> One of the worst things that you can use on a knife, they draw the
> temper out of the steel thus ruining the keeping qualities of keeping a
> decent edge on any knife, plus you wear away the knife a lot sooner.
Are you sure of this?
Long long ago when I was an Engineer and learned about temper the temp
required to draw the temper was several hundred degrees C. At which stage
it will discolour brown or blue if it is hot enough. It is easy to get to
that temperature on an Engineers grindstone, but surely not with a quick
stroke on an electric knife sharpener.
Dave F
Dave Fawthrop
> >
> > On Sun, 31 Dec 2000 11:11:26 -0000, "Ian"
> > <i...@nospamyoshian.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > > * What is the most convenient way to maintain sharp knives
> >
> > a. A good electric sharpener.
>
> One of the worst things that you can use on a knife, they draw the
> temper out of the steel thus ruining the keeping qualities of keeping a
> decent edge on any knife, plus you wear away the knife a lot sooner.
Are you sure of this?
Peter Parry
<hyp...@hyphenologist.co.uk> wrote:
>Are you sure of this?
>
>Long long ago when I was an Engineer and learned about temper the temp
>required to draw the temper was several hundred degrees C. At which stage
>it will discolour brown or blue if it is hot enough. It is easy to get to
>that temperature on an Engineers grindstone, but surely not with a quick
>stroke on an electric knife sharpener.
I missed Roberts original post (@home flops in and out of so many
blacklists its members posts don't propagate well).
Most electric knife sharpeners use small high speed grindstones
therefore the potential for localised heating certainly exists and a
wet grindstone is better. However it's a balance of achievability.
"Best" is a skilled person using a stone and steel. However this
requires that you have been shown how to do it properly, have had
supervised instruction to spot errors of technique and have had lots
of practice. Not a problem for a butcher or in a professional
kitchen, much more difficult at home. An unskilled person will do
more harm than good to a knife this way.
Next best is a wet grindstone with honing guide. Good idea if you
are also a serious woodworker and have lots of chisels and planes
blades to sharpen but otherwise it's a big, heavy and expensive
device which simply isn't practical.
Next is an electric sharpener, takes little skill, just remember to
move the blade gently over the wheel in the guide. Do it very slowly
and you will loose the temper of the steel in places where localised
heating occurs. It does wear the knife more than other sharpeners,
but I've got at least two knives which have always been sharpened
with an electric sharpener, both are 20 years old and good for
another 20 at least.
Various manual sharpening devices also exist, those I've tried I've
had no success with but others have found them useful.
Kris Dow
>Kris Dow wrote:
>>
>> On the subject of good electric knife sharpeners- is
>> there such a thing?
>
>No there is not, an electric knife sharpener is only for thoughts who
>have a lot of money to buy new knives more often. They draw the temper
>out of the steel, thus shortening keeping an edge on the knife. One of
>the fellows at work uses one and has to sharpen his knives three times
>to my one (I use a oil stone), plus his blade is a lot smaller than mine
>(my knives are a lot older than his). Use a diamond steel to sharpen the
>knives, then use a regular steel to hone (keep) your edge. Just remember
>the length of the steel should be longer than your longest knife blade.
>
Hrm. Then there's the whole thing of getting the angles right
and so on... Though I suppose there is that $5 knife to practise on...
(It's surprisingly good for something I paid $5 for in a Florida
supermarket... Better than the serrated cack, anyway.)
One of my Henckles has a burr sort of thing on the tip- no
idea what happened to it. Will a diamond steel applied with enough
persistance get rid of it, or am I better to try and find someone
with a grinding wheel or something? (It's not very big- just large
enough to catch things like the sponge if you're wiping down the
blade.)
-Kris
Robert Goodrick
All I can say is, "try it" as a common layman not knowing anything about
the temper of steel, the average person will press down hard believing
that the harder that they press will make the knife sharper. Consistence
use of the grinder will ware away the knife far quicker than using a
water/oil stone. And yes you will get a hazing of colours along the edge
if you use it like most people do.
Robert
> Dave F
Robert Goodrick
When home (UK) I would use the back door step, as it was cement to take
off something like that. It seems funny now thinking about it, Mum used
to make me polish the front and back steps on a Saturday with a red
polish, and on Sunday I would have to use the back step too sharpen the
knife to cut the roast?
Robert.
> -Kris
Peter Parry
> One of my Henckles has a burr sort of thing on the tip- no
>idea what happened to it. Will a diamond steel applied with enough
>persistance get rid of it,
It'll get rid of the whole knife given half a chance, they are about
20 times more effective at removing metal than an oilstone!
Treat very gently and check frequently.
Dave Fawthrop
>
>
> When home (UK) I would use the back door step, as it was cement to take
> off something like that. It seems funny now thinking about it, Mum used
> to make me polish the front and back steps on a Saturday with a red
> polish, and on Sunday I would have to use the back step too sharpen the
> knife to cut the roast?
That was a long time ago. We polishing steps 50ish years ago. I only just
remember it.
If your step is the old type made of York Stone or some other fine grained
sandstone, like they used to be then they are fine for knife sharpening.
Modern steps are made of very coarse concrete, with 1/2 inch gravel. With
use they become, deliberately, very rough to improve wear resistance, and
slip resistance. These are useless for knife sharpening.
Dave F
swroot
But very good for the initial feathering of the edge of a new
float/trowel for plasterwork :-)
regards
sarah
--
'When the gates are all down and the signals are flashing
And the whistle is screaming in vain
And you stay on the tracks, ignoring the facts
You can't blame the wreck on the train'