patthar ka phool
Steven Grace
required some translation and cannot track down an English name.
TIA
Steve
--
"If you abstain from wine, women and song you don't live longer...it just
seems like it!"
Elaine Jones
posted on 19 Apr 2002 by Steven Grace
I would like to add:
> Can anyone identify what this ingredient is? I found it in a recipe that
> required some translation and cannot track down an English name.
>
"Patthar" is possibly "leaves".
"Ka" - where it crops up seems to be "in" or "with"
"Phool" is one of the words for "cauliflower"
So does "cauliflower with its leaves" fit?
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Steven Grace
"Elaine Jones" <ela...@cae-coed.zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:544cbc...@cae-coed.zetnet.co.uk...
> Quoting from message <a9os9s$ned$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>
> posted on 19 Apr 2002 by Steven Grace
> I would like to add:
>
> > Can anyone identify what this ingredient is? I found it in a recipe that
> > required some translation and cannot track down an English name.
> >
>
> "Patthar" is possibly "leaves".
> "Ka" - where it crops up seems to be "in" or "with"
> "Phool" is one of the words for "cauliflower"
>
> So does "cauliflower with its leaves" fit?
>
think that fits, thanks though.
Steve
Jane Willis
Steven Grace <ste...@grace74.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:a9r1tn$1bk$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >
> Elaine, the recipe calls for a teaspoon of patthar ka phool, so I
don't
> think that fits, thanks though.
>
Phool actually means flower - cauliflower is Phool Gobi.
Ka is the possessive indicator; the word order is the opposite of
English so it means "flowers of" something.
Patthar means stone, as in gemstone.
so "flowers of stone".
Erm...... what about cloves? They are called "flowers of ........ " in
several Asian languages. It might be a regional name for them.
Jane
Steven Grace
This is the recipe which includes patthar ka phool in its entirety, the
ingredient is called for in the gravy section. I think this recipe needs a
good work over. Does anyone really use rose petals in their cooking?
Steve
Raan
Ingredients: (Serves 4)
1 (1.5 kg) leg of lamb, slit along the length
The marinade:
2 tsp (10 g) salt
4 tsp (20 g) raw papaya paste
4 tsp (20 g) ginger paste
2 tsp (10 g) garlic paste
1/4 cup (60 ml) red wine (or malt vinegar)
The filling:
250 g chicken mince (from the breast)
50 g cheddar or processed cheese, grated
75 ml cream
12 pistachios, blanched and halved
1 small red bell pepper, chopped
1 green chilli
1/2 tsp (2 g) black pepper powder
salt to taste
3 g mint leaves, chopped
1 sprig rosemary(optional), chopped
To braise:
1 tsp (5 g) chilli powder
oil to baste the leg
3 cardamom
3 cloves
1 black cardamom
1 stick cinnamon
1 star anise
6 rose petals
The gravy:
75 g ghee
3 cardamom
2 black cardamom
1 clove
2.5 cm cinnamon
1 bay leaf
3 tsp (15 g) ginger paste
2 tsp (10 g) garlic paste
cashew nut paste
1 litre clear mutton stock
1/2 tsp (2 g) chilli powder
1/2 cup (120 ml) curd, beaten
3 (125 g) onions, sliced, fried till crisp and crumbled
5 g mint leaves, chopped
3 g coriander leaves, chopped
salt to taste
1/4 tsp (1 g)
patthar ka phool powder
1 g rose petal powdered
few strands saffron, dissolved in a little lukewarm water
The cashewnut paste:
15 g cashewnuts
15 g poppy seeds
15 g chironji
7 g coriander seeds
Forcefully rub, as in massage, the lamb leg, inside and out, with salt.
Repeat the process with raw papaya paste, ginger paste and garlic paste and
finally with vinegar. (Each of these ingredients should be rubbed separately
and not as a mixture.) Reserve for one-and-a-half hours. Put the chicken
mince in a food processor or blender, add cheese, pulse for a few seconds.
Add cream in a steady stream and pulse with little bursts until a fine
mousse is obtained. Remove to a bowl, add the remaining ingredients and mix
well.
Prise open the pockets and stuff the filling into the leg. Using the
trussing needle and string, stitch the open ends. Bind the stuffed leg with
string to retain the shape whilst cooking. Baste with butter and prick with
a needle. Forcefully rub, as in massage, the lamb leg with the red chillies,
followed by oil. Arrange the leg in a roasting tray, add the remaining
ingredients and enough water to cover the leg. Braise in a pre-heated oven
(275o F) for two hours. Remove and discard the liqueur. Rub again with oil
and keep aside.
Roast each of the ingredients for the cashew nut paste separately on a
medium hot tawa, and grind to a smooth paste adding about 250ml water.
Heat ghee in a large flat pan. Season with cardamom, black cardamom, cloves,
cinnamon and bay leaf. Stir over medium heat until the green cardamom
changes colour. Add ginger paste and garlic paste, stir over medium heat
until the moisture evaporates. Lower the heat, add cashewnut paste and
stir-fry until the ghee floats on top (sprinkling small quantities of stock
to prevent sticking).
Add chilli powder. Stir for a few seconds, remove the pan from heat, stir in
the curd and return the pan to heat. Add fried onions and stir-fry until the
ghee floats on top. Add the braised raan, and the remaining stock, bring to
a boil, lower the heat and simmer for 45 minutes. Remove the leg and snip
off the strings. Pass the gravy through a fine mesh sieve into a separate
saucepan. Return the gravy to heat, add the leg, mint leaves, coriander
leaves and salt. Bring it to a boil, lower the heat, and add patthar ke
phool powder, rose petal powder and saffron. Simmer until the gravy is of
ketchup consistency. Remove and adjust the seasoning.
To serve:
Arrange the leg on a serving dish, pour the gravy over and serve hot with
steamed rice.
Elaine Jones
posted on 20 Apr 2002 by Steven Grace
I would like to add:
>
> This is the recipe which includes patthar ka phool in its entirety, the
> ingredient is called for in the gravy section. I think this recipe needs a
> good work over. Does anyone really use rose petals in their cooking?
A number of authors list the use of rose petals in Moghul influenced recipes,
but I suspect the majority of recipes have rosewater (available in most
chemists) as a substitute.
Dried rosepetals (pink or red) can be bought from most good herbalists, but
more likely to be found under Potpourri Ingredients. They are imported in
bulk from Turkey and generally on the small side and not necessarily visually
appealing.
There is at least one UK producer of rosepetal jam etc. (only in small
quantities).
Best bet is to plant a couple of bushes of Rosa Damascena and dry your own.
> 1/4 tsp (1 g)
> patthar ka phool powder
Listed here it would seem to be a floral aromatic (cloves are mentioned
elsewhere in the recipe) but I haven't found a refernce yet.
> 1 g rose petal powdered
> few strands saffron, dissolved in a little lukewarm water
> The cashewnut paste:
> 15 g cashewnuts
> 15 g poppy seeds
> 15 g chironji
Have you tracked these down - found them in only one glossary which says
"chirongi nut - almond substitute"
Steven Grace
I found this reference on google and found another that said this Hindu name
translated to "charoli", more confusingly it called it Sunflower seeds?
I also found an Ayurvedic reference to chironji as black cumin seeds which
is a road we on this NG have travelled before.
Go to www.google.co.uk and type chironji into the search window, I had 265
hits, ask.jeeves came up with no hits.
Steve
Chironji (Buchnalia latifolia)
Chironji oil extracted from the edible seeds of the plant, is used in
Ayurveda to treat skin ailments, reduce swelling and alleviate itchiness. A
highly recommended blend combines sesame, almond and chironji - that's
exactly what's in our eye care lotion.
Sandeep Sahai
made from pounding rock salt crystals. Its also called kala namak.
This is a guess.... but if you translate this it means rock flowers. The
recipe could use rock salt.... I know it definitely is NOT rose petals!
cheers.
Steven Grace <ste...@grace74.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:a9os9s$ned$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
Laury
Interesting that phool translates to leaf. In Greek, phyll means leaf (e.g as in chlorophyll). Can't get away from
Sanskrit, can we?
Whatever it is, you may be interested to know that there is a film of a very similar name:
1990
Patthar Ke Phool
Jeena Marna Tere Sang
Starring Raveena Tandon
Laury
Steven Grace <ste...@grace74.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message news:a9os9s$ned$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
Phool Aur Patthar (1966) finally made Dharmendra into a star. As the ruffian Shaka, Dharmendra combined muscles and
sensitivity to give Shaka a human touch. And when he whipped off his shirt in the film, for the first time Hindi
filmmakers woke up to the need to cater to female sexuality. In one of the most sensuous scenes in Hindi films,
Dharmendra leans over a sleeping Meena Kumari only to finally cover her up.
Laury
away) for help.
I woke at 5 am this morning dreaming of patthar ka phool!
More on rock salt. Apparently the Punjab has rock salt deposits in Sindh:
http://www.forisb.org/P186a-u.htm
"...abundant local rock salt deposits in the Punjab province of Pakistan.."
On the culinary front:
The following sites have identical text:
http://users.eggconnect.net/akitson/glossary.htm
http://www.bbcb.co.uk/glossary.htm
"Black Salt, Kala Namak.
Strong-smelling rock salt sold both ground and in lump form. "
http://polimetla.tripod.com/forus/spices.htm
"84 Rock Salt (raati vuppu)
hindi saindalavana
kannada saindalavana
malayalam saindalavana "
[This last looks like a good multi-lingual source of food names.]
Sandeep Sahai <sah...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:cJNw8.43959$QC1.3...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Elaine Jones
posted on 22 Apr 2002 by Laury
I would like to add:
> Another film
Yes - I tried googling as well, amazing how many references to films and
songs.
Sandeep Sahai
ingredient to put in butter chicken? Try it, makes all the difference...
but go easy on it.. try a little pinch and add more according to taste.
S
Laury <gniK...@tenretniTB.moC> wrote in message
news:aa1nql$6qb$1...@paris.btinternet.com...
Meghadri Ghosh
those languages (and regions) you get a spice called Dagad phool. I do not
know Gujarati, but in Marathi, Dagad is means stone. I have seen it in
markets in Pune and the only way I can describe it is 'something vaguely in
the shape of a much large star anise, and with far more crinkles'. I have
seen my mother-in-law use it, but my wife cannot recall any common english
name for it. But s search on Google gave the botanincal name 'permalia
perlata'. Perhaps it might be available from a herbalist?
- meghadri
"Steven Grace" <ste...@grace74.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:a9os9s$ned$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
Meghadri Ghosh
large cardamom ... ? Saw dagad phool for the first time in the market
labelled as such in Pune.
- meghadri
"Meghadri Ghosh" <megh...@stanford.edu> wrote in message
news:aa4jio$ibb$1...@usenet.Stanford.EDU...
Meghadri Ghosh
!
"Meghadri Ghosh" <megh...@stanford.edu> wrote in message
news:aa4jng$idq$1...@usenet.Stanford.EDU...
Steven Grace
"Steven Grace" <ste...@grace74.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:a9os9s$ned$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
> required some translation and cannot track down an English name.
>
http://www.ndtvcooks.com/qa/default.asp and got this reply
Query:
I have come across a spice called "patthar ka phool" for which I can find no
English translation. Can you help me by identifying this spice for me.
Many thanks
Answered by Niru:
I am afraid I have not been able to find an English name for it. This is
also called Dagar Phool and used a lot in Maharashtrian food. It is very
light and looks like shavings of the bark of a tree. I don't really know if
you would find it in the UK. Maybe if you have a Maharashtrian friend from
India, you might get help. Or else ask in an Indian store. Best of luck!
Elaine Jones
posted on 23 Apr 2002 by Meghadri Ghosh
I would like to add:
> Using a transliteration from Marathi and Gujarati for patthar ke phool. In
> those languages (and regions) you get a spice called Dagad phool. I do not
> know Gujarati, but in Marathi, Dagad is means stone. I have seen it in
> markets in Pune and the only way I can describe it is 'something vaguely in
> the shape of a much large star anise, and with far more crinkles'. I have
> seen my mother-in-law use it, but my wife cannot recall any common english
> name for it. But s search on Google gave the botanincal name 'permalia
> perlata'. Perhaps it might be available from a herbalist?
Thanks Meghadri.
I checked the RHS book on spices but no luck, nor in my big plant book
(perhaps the encyclopaedia I've seen plant specialists use would have it in)
I did a google and the sites were those of suppliers of Indian spices -
what was there though was *Ratanjot* (Steven, Laury you reading?)
It's Onosma Echioides (no "English" name)
Search on that gave me
3.
Onosma echioides Plants At GardenBed.com
- Requires a well-drained soil in full
sun. Prefers a deep rather rich sandy loam. Best grown in a crevice
Seed - we have no information on this species but suggest sowing the seed in
a greenhouse
http://plants.gardenbed.com/44/4378_pro.asp ( Lycos )
It's related to Laury's Alkanet - a Boragey sort of thing.
Steven Grace
> Quoting from message <aa4jio$ibb$1...@usenet.Stanford.EDU>
> posted on 23 Apr 2002 by Meghadri Ghosh
> I would like to add:
>
> > Using a transliteration from Marathi and Gujarati for patthar ke phool.
In
> > those languages (and regions) you get a spice called Dagad phool. I do
not
> > know Gujarati, but in Marathi, Dagad is means stone. I have seen it in
> > markets in Pune and the only way I can describe it is 'something vaguely
in
> > the shape of a much large star anise, and with far more crinkles'. I
have
> > seen my mother-in-law use it, but my wife cannot recall any common
english
> > name for it. But s search on Google gave the botanincal name 'permalia
> > perlata'. Perhaps it might be available from a herbalist?
>
> Thanks Meghadri.
>
> I checked the RHS book on spices but no luck, nor in my big plant book
> (perhaps the encyclopaedia I've seen plant specialists use would have it
in)
>
> I did a google and the sites were those of suppliers of Indian spices -
> what was there though was *Ratanjot* (Steven, Laury you reading?)
>
front
Steve
Raymond M. Harris
interrupted during tiffin, managed to blurt:
> posted on 23 Apr 2002 by Meghadri Ghosh
>
>> ... patthar ke phool ... Dagad phool ... 'permalia perlata'.
>
>I checked the RHS book on spices but no luck, nor in my big plant book
>(perhaps the encyclopaedia I've seen plant specialists use would have it in)
Couldn't find it at The Plant Finder either (Is that the book you mean?)
http://www.plantpress.com
which has a Latin to common name facility, and vice versa.
>
>I did a google and the sites were those of suppliers of Indian spices -
>what was there though was *Ratanjot* (Steven, Laury you reading?)
Well tracked down!
>
>It's Onosma Echioides (no "English" name)
Looking up what it means ...
Onosma - ass smell (alledgedly attractive to asses)
echioides - resembling Echium
No sniggering from the N.American colonies, thank you.
Ray
Elaine Jones
posted on 28 Apr 2002 by Raymond M. Harris
I would like to add:
> Elaine Jones <ela...@cae-coed.zetnet.co.uk>
> interrupted during tiffin, managed to blurt:
>
> > posted on 23 Apr 2002 by Meghadri Ghosh
> >
> >> ... patthar ke phool ... Dagad phool ... 'permalia perlata'.
> >
> >I checked the RHS book on spices but no luck, nor in my big plant book
> >(perhaps the encyclopaedia I've seen plant specialists use would have it in)
> Couldn't find it at The Plant Finder either (Is that the book you mean?)
No - a much weightier tome (or even tomes - may be in volumes) of plants and
their habitats around the world.
URL saved for future reference
--
...ElaineJ... Home Pages and FAQ of uk.food+drink.indian can be viewed at
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Geeta Bharathan
: Hmm am wondering whether it is the same thing as what I used to consider as
: large cardamom ... ? Saw dagad phool for the first time in the market
: labelled as such in Pune.
: "Meghadri Ghosh" <megh...@stanford.edu> wrote in message
: news:aa4jio$ibb$1...@usenet.Stanford.EDU...
: > Using a transliteration from Marathi and Gujarati for patthar ke phool. In
: > those languages (and regions) you get a spice called Dagad phool. I do not
: > know Gujarati, but in Marathi, Dagad is means stone. I have seen it in
: > markets in Pune and the only way I can describe it is 'something vaguely
: in
: > the shape of a much large star anise, and with far more crinkles'. I have
: > seen my mother-in-law use it, but my wife cannot recall any common english
: > name for it. But s search on Google gave the botanincal name 'permalia
: > perlata'. Perhaps it might be available from a herbalist?
Excuse me for butting in like this to revive a dead thread, but this is
such a Eureka moment for me that I had to share--several loose threads
(pun intended) having just come together to make sense.
Basic take-home message: it is a lichen, the "flower" that grows on rocks.
(that should be _Parmelia_).
"Dagad phool" had once reared its head in rec.food, and I believe it was
never resolved. I don't think its other name, "patthar ka phool" came up.
The clue, of course, lies in "rock." But none of that rang a bell until my
sister, on a recent visit from India, brought what was obviously a lichen,
packaged and called "kal paasi" which, in Tamil, translates to "moss that
grows on stone." Since the same word, paasi, is used for both moss and
algae, I figure that the Tamil comes closest to what it is, an association
between an alga and a lichen...
I stumbled on this thread while looking for something entirely different
and, like I said, I just had to share.
--Geeta
ps It smells heavenly when you dry roast it to make the masala, but I'm
not too sure that it adds much to the flavour of the "curry."
Mungo "Two Sheds" Toadfoot
"Geeta Bharathan" <ge...@tcp.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3d446283$1...@marge.ic.sunysb.edu...
8<
>
> I stumbled on this thread while looking for something entirely different
> and, like I said, I just had to share.
>
And thank you for doing so, Geeta. It's been said that this group isn't just
about posting recipes, and that's perfectly true, it's everything and
anything that involves Indian food so make sure you visit again! :o)
Si
Elaine Jones
posted on 28 Jul 2002 by Mungo \"Two Sheds\" Toadfoot
I would like to add:
>
Yes, seconded.
(and I think the site will have to have a section on obscure references
as well as FAQs!)
adamk...@gmail.com
ka means of
Pathar means rock/stone
MYBE PAthar ke phool are " BRYOPHYLLUM LEAVES"