Fwd: Greater democracy for NZ

[INIREF*I&R ~ GB]

Campaign for direct democracy in Britain
Citizens' Initiative and Referendum I&R ~ GB
http://www.iniref.org

We received the following message about Iceland, New Zealand and Hordur
Torfason, from Sian Clement. Any comments?

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Greater democracy for NZ
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 10:08:02 +1300
From: Sian Clement <sianec...@gmail.com>
To: in...@iniref.org



Thought you might be interested in the following and helping us spread
the word...


We are coordinating a nationwide tour by Hordur Torfason - an Icelandic
activist who initiated the recent 'cutlery revolution' in that country:
This resulted in:

1. Resignation of the whole government.

2. Nationalization of the bank.

3. Referendum so that the people can make economic decisions.

4. Incarcerating the responsible parties.

5. Rewriting of the constitution by its people via Twitter and
Facebook etc

All of this was accomplished *Peacefully.*

Interestingly the Icelandic economy is now doing well and the IMF and
other heavyweight economists agree that Iceland did the right thing
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/08/top-economists-iceland-did-it-right-everyone-else-is-doing-it-wrong.html


Hordur Torfason is currently lecturing on meta modern democracy in
Europe. The time is right for New Zealanders to hear what he has to say.

He will be visiting here in March 2013 and we are raising funds for this
in the most democratic way � through www.PledgeMe.co.nz/691
<http://www.pledgeme.co.nz/691> People give their credit card details
and /only if /we reach our target, the funds are deducted. This way,
all New Zealanders can see this inspiring man talk for free. Please
help us spread the word. Further information can be found at
www.facebook.com/HordurTorfasonNZTour
<http://www.facebook.com/HordurTorfasonNZTour>


Many thanks.

Kind regards,

Sian Clement

[soupdragon]

INIREF*I&R ~ GB <info...@OUTiniref.org> wrote in
news:ald9mb...@mid.uni-berlin.de:

> Thought you might be interested in the following and helping us spread
> the word...
>
>
> We are coordinating a nationwide tour by Hordur Torfason - an
> Icelandic activist who initiated the recent 'cutlery revolution' in
> that country:
> This resulted in:
>
> 1. Resignation of the whole government.
>
> 2. Nationalization of the bank.
>
> 3. Referendum so that the people can make economic
> decisions.
>
> 4. Incarcerating the responsible parties.
>
> 5. Rewriting of the constitution by its people via Twitter
> and Facebook etc
>
> All of this was accomplished *Peacefully.*
>
> Interestingly the Icelandic economy is now doing well and the IMF and
> other heavyweight economists agree that Iceland did the right thing
> http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/08/top-economists-iceland-did-it-ri
> ght-everyone-else-is-doing-it-wrong.html

Maybe you should read this first

http://studiotendra.com/2012/12/29/what-is-actually-going-on-in-iceland/

Quote:
Why are these myths being spread about Iceland? Why do people think that
Iceland is a progressive paradise when in actual fact its a Thatcherite�s
wet dream? Why is Iceland being paraded by the occupy movement as an
example of how things should be done?

I don�t know. My theory, born out by the names of those who seem to be
the sources of the biggest myths, is that there is a group of Icelanders
who are blatantly lying to foreigners.

Possibly they are doing this to balm their wounded nationalistic pride,
have convinced themselves that it�s true and that Iceland really is great
and unique. Possibly its because they see profit in lying to gullible
foreigners. The latter was a national sport during the banking bubble and
has been a standard Icelandic tactic throughout the ages, but I can�t
rule out the role of idiotic nationalism in this nonsense.

I don�t know. The only thing I know is that you are being lied to and
that Icelanders are very good at lying to themselves. If they weren�t, we
wouldn�t be in this mess.

[INIREF*I&R ~ GB]

> Iceland is a progressive paradise when in actual fact its a Thatcherite�s

> wet dream? Why is Iceland being paraded by the occupy movement as an
> example of how things should be done?
>

> I don�t know. My theory, born out by the names of those who seem to be

> the sources of the biggest myths, is that there is a group of Icelanders
> who are blatantly lying to foreigners.
>
> Possibly they are doing this to balm their wounded nationalistic pride,

> have convinced themselves that it�s true and that Iceland really is great

> and unique. Possibly its because they see profit in lying to gullible
> foreigners. The latter was a national sport during the banking bubble and

> has been a standard Icelandic tactic throughout the ages, but I can�t

> rule out the role of idiotic nationalism in this nonsense.
>

> I don�t know. The only thing I know is that you are being lied to and
> that Icelanders are very good at lying to themselves. If they weren�t, we
> wouldn�t be in this mess.

INIREF*I&R ~ GB wrote:
> Campaign for direct democracy in Britain
> Citizens' Initiative and Referendum I&R ~ GB
> http://www.iniref.org
>
> We received the following message about Iceland, New Zealand and
Hordur Torfason, from Sian Clement. Any comments?
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Greater democracy for NZ
> Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 10:08:02 +1300
> From: Sian Clement <sianec...@gmail.com>

Iniref forwarded the announcement, written by Sian Clement.

Soupdragon's rant is contradicted in the blog cited by Clement
<http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/08/top-economists-iceland-did-it-right-everyone-else-is-doing-it-wrong.html>

For instance, in washingtonsblog "Krugman ... says:

A funny thing happened on the way to economic Armageddon: Iceland�s very
desperation made conventional behavior impossible, freeing the nation to
break the rules. Where everyone else bailed out the bankers and made the
public pay the price, Iceland let the banks go bust and actually
expanded its social safety net."

[INIREF*I&R ~ GB]

soupdragon wrote:
> INIREF*I&R ~ GB<info...@OUTiniref.org> wrote in

> news:algcsh...@mid.uni-berlin.de:

>> Soupdragon's rant
>
> Not mine, dear thing. Just the words of someone living in Iceland,
> something none of your 'bloggers' can claim.

>
> is contradicted in the blog cited by Clement
>> <http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/08/top-economists-iceland-did-it-r
>> ight-everyone-else-is-doing-it-wrong.html>
>>
>> For instance, in washingtonsblog "Krugman ... says:
>>
>> A funny thing happened on the way to economic Armageddon: Iceland�s
>> very desperation made conventional behavior impossible, freeing the
>> nation to break the rules. Where everyone else bailed out the bankers
>> and made the public pay the price, Iceland let the banks go bust and
>> actually expanded its social safety net."
>

> Which is the very myth the Icelandic writer is railing against. So who
> would you believe? A blog written by someone in Washington, passed
> on third hand via someone in New Zealand and then passed on by MobRuleRUs
> or straight from the horses mouth, a well written lengthy article by
> someone actually living in Iceland?
>
> http://studiotendra.com/2012/12/29/what-is-actually-going-on-in-iceland/
>
> Read it and weep..

Beyond your dragonesque fixation on "myths" there is much that the
"established" democracies can learn from Icelanders about how to improve
and practise democracy.

For instance in Iceland:
� a long overdue overhaul of the state constitution has been set in
motion by a Convention of citizens. (We need this in UK and its countries.)
� in response to public demand, binding ballots about economic policy
have been held. This was about state guarantee for the Icesave-
compensation fund. The people voted strongly against the government
proposals. (We need citizen-instigated binding referendum in UK at all
levels of government from local to central.)

Campaign for direct democracy in Britain
Citizens' Initiative and Referendum I&R ~ GB

<http://www.iniref.org> Link to site index
<http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/dd-gb> Sign up for reform

[INIREF*I&R ~ GB]

soupdragon wrote:
> INIREF*I&R ~ GB<info...@OUTiniref.org> wrote in

> news:alj1i5...@mid.uni-berlin.de:

> You really do need to read this link instead of churning out the same old
> drivel, particularly the bit on Icesave. It was the president who
> instigated the referendum, not 'the people' and it was largely to do with
> maintaining his own position at the top, despite having been in the
> pocket of the bankers:
>
> Quote:
>
> A few things to note here:
> �The Icelandic governments have always accepted the terms of the Dutch
> and the British. They agree with them that we should pay.
> �The voters disagree and only get a say because the president is keen on
> making everybody forget that he is a bankster collaborator who was in the
> pocket of the banks right up to the crash.
> �Icesave is being paid, no matter what Icelandic voters say. The dispute
> is solely about how high the interest rates are.

A large number of citizens SHOULD be able to initiate a referendum. The
Icelandic president clearly responded to public pressure in triggering
recent referenda. Rather like the Scots having successfully demanded a
ballot about independence.

We could learn even more about democracy from the people of Iceland. For
instance, in a national ballot they recently voted strongly in favour of
the following:

"Vilt �� a� � n�rri stj�rnarskr� ver�i �kv��i um a� tilteki� hlutfall
kosningarb�rra manna geti krafist �ess a� m�l fari � �j��aratkv��agrei�slu?"

which seems to mean:

Do you wish that with our new Constitution an agreed number of voters
can bring a proposal to referendum?

We could certainly use some of this sort of democracy in UK and its
countries! More than seven out of ten British people support the idea
(surveys).

[INIREF*I&R ~ GB]

soupdragon wrote:
> INIREF*I&R ~ GB<info...@OUTiniref.org> wrote in

> news:alj51r...@mid.uni-berlin.de:

> But they didn't. The president did that.

>
>> The Icelandic president clearly responded to public pressure in
>> triggering recent referenda.
>

> 'Clearly'? The only thing 'clear' is that you don't have a scooby as
> to what's really going on in Iceland! The only thing the president
> responded to was the opportunity to present himself as a 'man of
> the people' rather than a puppet of the banks and retain his office
> when he should have been kicked out with the others.

>
> Rather like the Scots having successfully
>> demanded a ballot about independence.
>>
>> We could learn even more about democracy from the people of Iceland.
>> For instance, in a national ballot they recently voted strongly in
>> favour of the following:
>>
>> "Vilt �� a� � n�rri stj�rnarskr� ver�i �kv��i um a� tilteki� hlutfall
>> kosningarb�rra manna geti krafist �ess a� m�l fari �
>> �j��aratkv��agrei�slu?"
>>
>> which seems to mean:
>>
>> Do you wish that with our new Constitution an agreed number of voters
>> can bring a proposal to referendum?
>>
>> We could certainly use some of this sort of democracy in UK and its
>> countries! More than seven out of ten British people support the idea
>> (surveys).
>

> Really? 'this sort of democracy'? You do know this was a NON-BINDING
> _consultative_ referendum proposed by the new Government on what form
> the constitution should take?

The people voted to recommend the introduction of citizens' initiative.
We must push (in Iceland and UK) for the right to legally binding
ballot. Often a "consultative" non-binding referendum result must in
practice be obeyed by the ruling authority, for "political" reasons.

In UK we have NO right to put forward a citizens' proposal as part of a
direct democratic procedure at state level. Before he was elected, D.
Cameron promised to introduce this.

Campaign for direct democracy in Britain
Citizens' Initiative and Referendum I&R ~ GB
<http://www.iniref.org> Link to site index
<http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/dd-gb> Sign up for reform

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