Oppose separate schooling for asylum seekers
The Technical Manager
> I received this today:
>
> Oppose separate schooling for asylum seekers
>
> On Tuesday 9th July 2002, a deputation of children and teachers from
> schools in the London Borough of Newham delivered a petition with
> nearly 3000 signatures to the Home Office. Signatures came from all
> over the UK and even from overseas.
From the countries that produce asylum seekers no doubt. Of course they
want to sponge our taxpayers money and travel across half the world
because they know that Britain is soft touch and has a generous benefit
system.
>
> Children from Star Primary School, Forest Gate Community School and
> Little Ilford School were joined by officers from Newham Teachers'
> Association and Steve Sinnott, the Deputy General Secretary of the
> National Union of Teachers.
>
> Children and teachers were received by an official from the office of
> Beverley Hughes, Minister for Immigration and Asylum.
>
> Many of the children, who are themselves refugees and asylum seekers,
> spoke of how important it was for refugee children to attend
> mainstream schools and mix with other children from local communities.
But they are supposed to return to the country of their origin when
conditions there make it safe to do so. Asylum seekers and their children
are not meant to become fully fledged British citizens.
>
> They expressed concern that the government is proposing to treat one
> group of children differently and segregate them in the new
> accommodation centres. The children called on the government to listen
> to children and not carry out plans that would discriminate.
>
> Newham Teachers' Association would like to thank all the children,
> teachers, parents and others who signed the petition.
I am surprised that any British parents would sign such a petition. After
all they pay taxes to finance education and it is only right that their
taxes pay for our own people and not freeloaders from other countries.
>
> *** http://socialistteachers.tripod.com ***
>
> Includes Polly Donnison's cartoons on
> http://socialistteachers.tripod.com/cartoons.htm
Our schools are short of teachers and textbooks and kids are taught in
overcrowded classrooms. Filling state schools up with asylum seekers will
add to what is already an overstressed education system and will be
detrimental to the education of British children and the taxpayer. At the
end of the day it is the parents on British children who should have the
say on how things are run and not some Trotskyist trade union like NUT.
Jenny & Robert D
>At the
>end of the day it is the parents on British children who should have the
>say on how things are run and not some Trotskyist trade union like NUT.
Why?
At what point does knowledge and understanding of a situation override the
views of sheer numbers of parents of 'British' children? Where would you
draw the line? There's 29 sets of parents in my class and only 1 teacher, or
200 sets of parents and only 1 head, or 4 SMT or 8 teachers, should,
therefore parents should have the greater say in what goes on. Many (most?)
parents don't want a 6 week holiday but I think all teachers do, if it comes
to the numbers game the break would be gone.
What about non-tax paying parents, or those who pay more tax than others?
The Technical Manager
> >At the
> >end of the day it is the parents of British children who should have the
> >say on how things are run and not some Trotskyist trade union like NUT.
>
> Why?
Because they are paying for education and trade unions are often out of touch
with what the customer (as in the kids) really want or need. Trade unions tend
to act in the interest of their members and not the customers of products or
services.
The attitudes, dress, appearance, and outlook of a certain proportion of
teachers would not be tolerated in most commercial institutions. Many teachers
go from school to teacher training college and back to school again without any
experience of work or employment in the real world. As a result they have a
blinkered outlook on life and get tied up in their own little world which if
often very different to the real or commercial world. They are also more likely
than many ordinary working people to be more sympathetic with left wing and
Trotskyist viewpoints like banning British culture in favour of a unified
utopian socialist culture, flirting with homosexuality, dismantling of
immigration barriers and filling Britain with the worlds asylum seekers with
scant regard to the pressure on the housing market or the quality of teaching
in the classroom. Many such far left policies are deeply unpopular with Joe
public who has nothing to benefit from them and in many ways loses out. Joe
public and his wife make up the majority of parents and actually pay for this
education which includes the salaries of far left teachers.
>
> At what point does knowledge and understanding of a situation override the
> views of sheer numbers of parents of 'British' children? Where would you
> draw the line? There's 29 sets of parents in my class and only 1 teacher, or
> 200 sets of parents and only 1 head, or 4 SMT or 8 teachers, should,
> therefore parents should have the greater say in what goes on. Many (most?)
> parents don't want a 6 week holiday but I think all teachers do, if it comes
> to the numbers game the break would be gone.
> What about non-tax paying parents, or those who pay more tax than others?
Just about all parents pay tax in the form if VAT, council tax, petrol duty,
fag and booze duty even if they don't pay income tax.
Jenny & Robert D
Surely if The Great British Public so wished they could attend union
meetings and move the union they want it to go (obviously only if they are
teachers).
Do you think teachers are more socialist per person than the rest of
Britain. If so why is this, I wonder if it's because there is a degree of
thinking of others over yourself in teaching (i.e. what socialism should
be), or is it that teaching is a graduate job, and graduates tend to be more
left leaning?
I can see however, how the public at large feels they are not being
represented by unions etc in debates. But to what extent are they being led
by the media, where we only get half a story on so many things?
Personally I would like to see less democracy, I would be in favour of some
kind of test prior to voting on things (the Euro for example) therefore
people voting would have a proven knowledge on what their options are. I
feel that left and right alike often do not have a clear grasp of the issues
and vote with their families, colours etc
Interesting holiday thoughts anyway.
P.S. Why do I have to pay a licence fee for crap like changing rooms etc and
then pay again for sport on SKY??
The Technical Manager
> Yes, but if they don't like it they can vote them out can't they.
It is very difficult to get a teacher sacked or force them to retrain.
> Surely if The Great British Public so wished they could attend union
> meetings and move the union they want it to go (obviously only if they are
> teachers).
Not parents
> Do you think teachers are more socialist per person than the rest of
> Britain. If so why is this,
It is largely a result of their lack of involvement in the real world as in
outside of academia. Teachers often go from school to teacher training college
and back to school again without a taste of the commercial world.
> I wonder if it's because there is a degree of
> thinking of others over yourself in teaching (i.e. what socialism should
> be), or is it that teaching is a graduate job, and graduates tend to be more
> left leaning?
Untrue. I hold a degree in electronic engineering and know of plenty of
graduates who are actually quite socially conservative or even right wing in
their approach.
>
> I can see however, how the public at large feels they are not being
> represented by unions etc in debates. But to what extent are they being led
> by the media, where we only get half a story on so many things?
Parents know what their kids are and aren't being taught at schools. In some
cases it horrifies them but apart from a few harsh words to the teacher in
question or the head there isn't much they can do about it.
>
> Personally I would like to see less democracy,
Why ? We don't get much as it is and in many cases less than in Continental
Europe.
> I would be in favour of some
> kind of test prior to voting on things (the Euro for example) therefore
> people voting would have a proven knowledge on what their options are. I
> feel that left and right alike often do not have a clear grasp of the issues
> and vote with their families, colours etc
>
> Interesting holiday thoughts anyway.
>
> P.S. Why do I have to pay a licence fee for crap like changing rooms etc and
> then pay again for sport on SKY??
The Wireless Telegraphy Act 1948.
Roger Watts
<tec...@niobiumfive.co.uk> writes
>The attitudes, dress, appearance, and outlook of a certain proportion of
>teachers would not be tolerated in most commercial institutions. Many teachers
>go from school to teacher training college and back to school again without any
>experience of work or employment in the real world. As a result they have a
>blinkered outlook on life and get tied up in their own little world which if
>often very different to the real or commercial world. They are also more likely
>than many ordinary working people to be more sympathetic with left wing and
>Trotskyist viewpoints like banning British culture in favour of a unified
>utopian socialist culture, flirting with homosexuality, dismantling of
>immigration barriers and filling Britain with the worlds asylum seekers with
>scant regard to the pressure on the housing market or the quality of teaching
>in the classroom. Many such far left policies are deeply unpopular with Joe
>public who has nothing to benefit from them and in many ways loses out. Joe
>public and his wife make up the majority of parents and actually pay for this
>education which includes the salaries of far left teachers.
>
I read with awe and wonder your erudite comments about the British
education system, TM, and I ask myself, what is the fount of your
knowledge?
You must at least be a teacher, or perhaps a governor? No, such breadth
of understanding could only come from wider experience of more schools.
An adviser perhaps or, TINIG, an OFSTED inspector? Not an HMI surely?
Do tell us so that we may worship at your alter with even greater
humility.
--
Roger Watts
unjolly me to reply by email
The Technical Manager
> In article <3D3C56DD...@niobiumfive.co.uk>, The Technical Manager
> <tec...@niobiumfive.co.uk> writes
>
> >The attitudes, dress, appearance, and outlook of a certain proportion of
> >teachers would not be tolerated in most commercial institutions. Many teachers
> >go from school to teacher training college and back to school again without any
> >experience of work or employment in the real world. As a result they have a
> >blinkered outlook on life and get tied up in their own little world which if
> >often very different to the real or commercial world. They are also more likely
> >than many ordinary working people to be more sympathetic with left wing and
> >Trotskyist viewpoints like banning British culture in favour of a unified
> >utopian socialist culture, flirting with homosexuality, dismantling of
> >immigration barriers and filling Britain with the worlds asylum seekers with
> >scant regard to the pressure on the housing market or the quality of teaching
> >in the classroom. Many such far left policies are deeply unpopular with Joe
> >public who has nothing to benefit from them and in many ways loses out. Joe
> >public and his wife make up the majority of parents and actually pay for this
> >education which includes the salaries of far left teachers.
> >
>
> I read with awe and wonder your erudite comments about the British
> education system, TM, and I ask myself, what is the fount of your
> knowledge?
>
> You must at least be a teacher, or perhaps a governor?
I tried to become a governor but the school in question required me to be a parent
and not an older brother.
> No, such breadth
> of understanding could only come from wider experience of more schools.
> An adviser perhaps or, TINIG, an OFSTED inspector? Not an HMI surely?
I work as an electronic engineer but often involve myself with electronics and
physics teachers from secondary schools. Thats where I get most of the information
from.
Harry the Horse
news:3D3D78A5...@niobiumfive.co.uk...
> Jenny & Robert D wrote:
>
> > Yes, but if they don't like it they can vote them out can't they.
>
> It is very difficult to get a teacher sacked or force them to retrain.
>
> > Surely if The Great British Public so wished they could attend union
> > meetings and move the union they want it to go (obviously only if they
are
> > teachers).
>
> Not parents
>
> > Do you think teachers are more socialist per person than the rest of
> > Britain. If so why is this,
>
> It is largely a result of their lack of involvement in the real world as
in
> outside of academia. Teachers often go from school to teacher training
college
> and back to school again without a taste of the commercial world.
>
neither is more real than the other.
> > I wonder if it's because there is a degree of
> > thinking of others over yourself in teaching (i.e. what socialism should
> > be), or is it that teaching is a graduate job, and graduates tend to be
more
> > left leaning?
>
> Untrue. I hold a degree in electronic engineering and know of plenty of
> graduates who are actually quite socially conservative or even right wing
in
> their approach.
>
> >
> > I can see however, how the public at large feels they are not being
> > represented by unions etc in debates. But to what extent are they being
led
> > by the media, where we only get half a story on so many things?
>
> Parents know what their kids are and aren't being taught at schools. In
some
> cases it horrifies them but apart from a few harsh words to the teacher in
> question or the head there isn't much they can do about it.
>
If they think they could do better they should try doing it themselves.
The Technical Manager
> "The Technical Manager" <tec...@niobiumfive.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:3D3D78A5...@niobiumfive.co.uk...
> > Jenny & Robert D wrote:
> >
> > > Yes, but if they don't like it they can vote them out can't they.
> >
> > It is very difficult to get a teacher sacked or force them to retrain.
> >
> > > Surely if The Great British Public so wished they could attend union
> > > meetings and move the union they want it to go (obviously only if they
> are
> > > teachers).
> >
> > Not parents
> >
> > > Do you think teachers are more socialist per person than the rest of
> > > Britain. If so why is this,
> >
> > It is largely a result of their lack of involvement in the real world as
> in
> > outside of academia. Teachers often go from school to teacher training
> college
> > and back to school again without a taste of the commercial world.
> >
> Having worked in both teaching and commercial world, I can assure you that
> neither is more real than the other.
Explain in more detail.
>
>
> > > I wonder if it's because there is a degree of
> > > thinking of others over yourself in teaching (i.e. what socialism should
> > > be), or is it that teaching is a graduate job, and graduates tend to be
> more
> > > left leaning?
> >
> > Untrue. I hold a degree in electronic engineering and know of plenty of
> > graduates who are actually quite socially conservative or even right wing
> in
> > their approach.
> >
> > >
> > > I can see however, how the public at large feels they are not being
> > > represented by unions etc in debates. But to what extent are they being
> led
> > > by the media, where we only get half a story on so many things?
> >
> > Parents know what their kids are and aren't being taught at schools. In
> some
> > cases it horrifies them but apart from a few harsh words to the teacher in
> > question or the head there isn't much they can do about it.
> >
> If they think they could do better they should try doing it themselves.
The thing is that thanks to the National Curriculum powers have been taken away
from teachers, parents and governors and transferred to Whitehall. Teachers
nowadays are almost at the point of being robots and having to teach what the
government tells them to teach.
Roger Watts
If you're serious, schools are usually desperate for governors. Contact
your LEA and offer your services.
>
>> No, such breadth
>> of understanding could only come from wider experience of more schools.
>> An adviser perhaps or, TINIG, an OFSTED inspector? Not an HMI surely?
>
>I work as an electronic engineer but often involve myself with electronics and
>physics teachers from secondary schools. Thats where I get most of the
>information
>from.
>
>> Do tell us so that we may worship at your alter with even greater
>> humility.
OK, I apologise for the sarcasm. You have every right to opinions about
what education should be like, but knowing a few physics teachers does
not qualify you to make these sweeping generalisations about teachers
and schools. Don't believe all you read in the newspapers, and I don't
*just* mean the Daily Mail!
No doubt a 'certain proportion' (10%, 1%, 0.1%, 0.01% ???) of teachers
are all these things . No doubt a certain proportion of doctors,
accountants, football players and plumbers are these things.
There are 400,000 teachers and 25,000 schools. In how many of these
schools will you find a 'unified socialist culture' (whatever that is)?
How many of them ban British culture (do *any* not study Shakespeare,
for example).
The Technical Manager
The problem is you have to be a parent for the school I want to be a governor of and
a close relative is not good enough.
>
> >
> >> No, such breadth
> >> of understanding could only come from wider experience of more schools.
> >> An adviser perhaps or, TINIG, an OFSTED inspector? Not an HMI surely?
> >
> >I work as an electronic engineer but often involve myself with electronics and
> >physics teachers from secondary schools. Thats where I get most of the
> >information
> >from.
> >
> >> Do tell us so that we may worship at your alter with even greater
> >> humility.
>
> OK, I apologise for the sarcasm. You have every right to opinions about
> what education should be like, but knowing a few physics teachers does
> not qualify you to make these sweeping generalisations about teachers
> and schools.
Sad but true. Our education system is being hijacked by the marxist liberal types,
especially those teaching social studies or humanities. This is for secondary
schools. I don't know the situation for primary schools as I am not involved with
them in any way.
> Don't believe all you read in the newspapers, and I don't
> *just* mean the Daily Mail!
>
> No doubt a 'certain proportion' (10%, 1%, 0.1%, 0.01% ???) of teachers
> are all these things . No doubt a certain proportion of doctors,
> accountants, football players and plumbers are these things.
But they don't indoctrinate children with their bizarre views on things.
> There are 400,000 teachers and 25,000 schools. In how many of these
> schools will you find a 'unified socialist culture' (whatever that is)?
Varies. Schools in rural areas and better off small towns tend to have better
quality teachers who are more realistic in their outlook and less likely to flirt
with the far left than those from many inner city schools.
>
> How many of them ban British culture (do *any* not study Shakespeare,
> for example).
Of course they try to kybosh British culture. Ignore St. Georges day but celebrate
every Hindu festival. Teach kids things like black studies, African dancing, Urdu
poetry or all manner of religions but not Britain's geography, history or
constitution. Spend all their time rambling on about fighting racism and the
benefits of a multicultural society rather than a British one. Believing that blacks
and Asians are angels and the whites are the devil incarnate and denying that black
on white or Asian on white racism and racially motivated attacks exist. Claiming the
BNP are evil minded and the trotskyist Socialist Alliance are the way to go.
Claiming that the British are evil in what they did during the days of the empire
and coming out with statements like they exploited other peoples countries when
they actually benefitted from British rule. Theres a start.
Roger Watts
>> >I tried to become a governor but the school in question required me to be a
>> >parent
>> >and not an older brother.
>>
>> If you're serious, schools are usually desperate for governors. Contact
>> your LEA and offer your services.
>
>The problem is you have to be a parent for the school I want to be a governor of
>and
>a close relative is not good enough.
>
Are you sure they don't have vacancies for LEA or co-opted governors?
Anyway, if you are so interested in education, why limit yourself to
this particular school?
>> OK, I apologise for the sarcasm. You have every right to opinions about
>> what education should be like, but knowing a few physics teachers does
>> not qualify you to make these sweeping generalisations about teachers
>> and schools.
>
>Sad but true. Our education system is being hijacked by the marxist liberal
>types,
You agree! and yet you go on doing it. The very fact that you talk
about 'Marxist Liberals' is a sign that you really don't have a clue
what you're talking about.
>especially those teaching social studies or humanities.
So one of your Physics teacher friends knows a Sociology teacher who's a
leftie - don't we all? But is that any proof that the 'education system
is being hijacked'? What a load of Daily Mail tosh. Teachers come from
all political persuasions - of course. The majority lead mundane,
conservative lives and teach their kids the values of the establishment
- honesty, respect for property, hard work, avoidance of violence. But
they don't count, I suppose. They're not hijacking the education
system? Not that I think they shouldn't, but you don't see them.
> This is for secondary
>schools. I don't know the situation for primary schools as I am not involved
>with
>them in any way.
>
>> Don't believe all you read in the newspapers, and I don't
>> *just* mean the Daily Mail!
>>
>> No doubt a 'certain proportion' (10%, 1%, 0.1%, 0.01% ???) of teachers
>> are all these things . No doubt a certain proportion of doctors,
>> accountants, football players and plumbers are these things.
>
>But they don't indoctrinate children with their bizarre views on things.
Most teachers are far too busy teaching to bother with indoctrination,
and when they do, it's in mainstream values. What 'bizarre views'? Go to
a few school assemblies - day in day out - indoctrination on being
better people, better citizens, harder workers.
>
>> There are 400,000 teachers and 25,000 schools. In how many of these
>> schools will you find a 'unified socialist culture' (whatever that is)?
>
>Varies. Schools in rural areas and better off small towns tend to have better
>quality teachers who are more realistic in their outlook and less likely to
>flirt
>with the far left than those from many inner city schools.
How do you know? How many have you visited? Come on, you make these
fantastic claims, where's your evidence? Many of the teachers in inner
city schools are very good, they have to be. Some of the teachers who
get by in 'rural areas and better off small towns' would sink without
trace when faced with the 'realism' of inner city life.
>
>>
>> How many of them ban British culture (do *any* not study Shakespeare,
>> for example).
>
>Of course they try to kybosh British culture. Ignore St. Georges day but
>celebrate
>every Hindu festival. Teach kids things like black studies, African dancing,
>Urdu
>poetry or all manner of religions but not Britain's geography, history or
>constitution.
You really don't have a clue, do you? You really don't know *anything*
about what is taught in our schools. Try going to a school just for a
day.
English - vast majority of texts studied are European (and that includes
British!) / American. Shakespeare compulsory.
Art/ Music - virtually all Eurocentric.
Religious Education - most time spent on Christianity/ Old Testament.
Of course they learn about other religions, as well. They'll maybe 'do'
1 Hindu festival - Divali, but spend weeks preparing the Christmas
concert and hours over the year singing Christian hymns in Assemblies.
History and Geography - ever thought of reading the National Curriculum?
*Not* Britain's geography and history? - your ignorance is so profound,
it flabbergasts me.
Urdu poetry - ah, that old chestnut. If a child learns Frere Jaques,
that's OK I suppose? African dancing? If you were a 10 year old, which
would you prefer Morris Dancing or the Wom Wom? Of course, you prefer
Morris Dancing. These non-English elements of art/ music/ English are a
tiny fraction of the total.
> Spend all their time rambling on about fighting racism
All their time? Fighting racism, yes, I'm all for that. You approve of
racism of course?
>and the
>benefits of a multicultural society rather than a British one.
Britain *is* a multicultural society - they have to live in it.
> Believing that
>blacks
>and Asians are angels and the whites are the devil incarnate
In how many schools? How many? Where's your evidence?
>and denying that
>black
>on white or Asian on white racism and racially motivated attacks exist. Claiming
>the
>BNP are evil minded
They are, but most teachers don't bother their heads with politics and
some of them are probably BNP supporters.
>and the trotskyist Socialist Alliance are the way to go.
How many *people*, let alone teachers, are in the Socialist Alliance?
Remember, there are 400,000 teachers.
>Claiming that the British are evil
So slavery is *not* evil? Are they to tell children that in buying
slaves, taking them under inhuman conditions across the Atlantic, and
selling them, we were doing them a favour? We teach children the
glories of the defeat of the Armada. Agincourt and Crecy. The
'workshop of the world' is proudly ( and rightly) taught in the
'Victorians'. So let's keep a balance. You simply ignore all the
positive things that are taught, and shudder when teachers mention
things that are not so pleasant. You want to bury your head in the
sand!
>in what they did during the days of the
>empire
>and coming out with statements like they exploited other peoples countries
You poor sap. You *really* think that we didn't exploit them? Why on
earth do you think we went? What was the East India Company - a
philanthropic Society? They went to make money, to establish the
conditions in which money could be made. They exploited both resources
and labour.
>when
>they actually benefitted from British rule.
Whether or not they benefited from British rule is matter of subjective
assessment. But even if they did, it was an unasked for, incidental
effect. Supposing I march into your garden, force you to dig up all
your potatoes and carry them to my car. When you complain, I say 'Look
here old chap, you're much better at digging now and I'll let you keep
the spade and buckets'.
>Theres a start.
For a start, why don't you consider that great British virtue, honesty?
The Technical Manager
> In article <3D444B0D...@niobiumfive.co.uk>, The Technical Manager
> <tec...@niobiumfive.co.uk> writes
> >Roger Watts wrote:
>
> >> >I tried to become a governor but the school in question required me to be a
> >> >parent
> >> >and not an older brother.
> >>
> >> If you're serious, schools are usually desperate for governors. Contact
> >> your LEA and offer your services.
> >
> >The problem is you have to be a parent for the school I want to be a governor of
> >and
> >a close relative is not good enough.
> >
>
> Are you sure they don't have vacancies for LEA or co-opted governors?
I shall investigate that
> Anyway, if you are so interested in education, why limit yourself to
> this particular school?
I used to attend it and so have others in my family.
>
> >> OK, I apologise for the sarcasm. You have every right to opinions about
> >> what education should be like, but knowing a few physics teachers does
> >> not qualify you to make these sweeping generalisations about teachers
> >> and schools.
> >
> >Sad but true. Our education system is being hijacked by the marxist liberal
> >types,
>
> You agree! and yet you go on doing it. The very fact that you talk
> about 'Marxist Liberals' is a sign that you really don't have a clue
> what you're talking about.
I for sure certainly know what it is and how to smell out such left wingers in
action.
>
> >especially those teaching social studies or humanities.
>
> So one of your Physics teacher friends knows a Sociology teacher who's a
> leftie - don't we all? But is that any proof that the 'education system
> is being hijacked'?
I didn't say ALL. Many humanities teachers don't want to involve themselves with
left wing claptrap.
> What a load of Daily Mail tosh. Teachers come from
> all political persuasions - of course.
I would be very surprised if any were members of the BNP. Teaching unions would call
for them to be sacked. In general teachers tend to be left of centre. Tory
supporting teachers are quite rare nowadays and only a handful will dabble with the
nationalist parties like the BNP, NF, Freedom Party etc.
> The majority lead mundane,
> conservative lives and teach their kids the values of the establishment
> - honesty, respect for property, hard work, avoidance of violence. But
> they don't count, I suppose.
They teach what Whitehall sets them. If its a course in homosexuality then normally
they have to teach it or get a rap on their knuckles when the inspectors come round.
> They're not hijacking the education
> system? Not that I think they shouldn't, but you don't see them.
>
> > This is for secondary
> >schools. I don't know the situation for primary schools as I am not involved
> >with
> >them in any way.
> >
> >> Don't believe all you read in the newspapers, and I don't
> >> *just* mean the Daily Mail!
> >>
> >> No doubt a 'certain proportion' (10%, 1%, 0.1%, 0.01% ???) of teachers
> >> are all these things . No doubt a certain proportion of doctors,
> >> accountants, football players and plumbers are these things.
> >
> >But they don't indoctrinate children with their bizarre views on things.
>
> Most teachers are far too busy teaching to bother with indoctrination,
> and when they do, it's in mainstream values.
As in New Labour type of stuff. Multicultural and homosexual ?!
> What 'bizarre views'? Go to
> a few school assemblies - day in day out - indoctrination on being
> better people, better citizens, harder workers.
I think not. Where are you located ? Perhaps some rural parts of Hereford might have
teachers who hold virtues and values and teach using traditional methods but many
schools in big cities are run by indoctrinaire left wing types.
>
> >
> >> There are 400,000 teachers and 25,000 schools. In how many of these
> >> schools will you find a 'unified socialist culture' (whatever that is)?
> >
> >Varies. Schools in rural areas and better off small towns tend to have better
> >quality teachers who are more realistic in their outlook and less likely to
> >flirt
> >with the far left than those from many inner city schools.
>
> How do you know? How many have you visited? Come on, you make these
> fantastic claims, where's your evidence? Many of the teachers in inner
> city schools are very good, they have to be. Some of the teachers who
> get by in 'rural areas and better off small towns' would sink without
> trace when faced with the 'realism' of inner city life.
I have seen what goes on in these schools in urban areas. Make a start with
Sandwell.
>
> >
> >>
> >> How many of them ban British culture (do *any* not study Shakespeare,
> >> for example).
> >
> >Of course they try to kybosh British culture. Ignore St. Georges day but
> >celebrate
> >every Hindu festival. Teach kids things like black studies, African dancing,
> >Urdu
> >poetry or all manner of religions but not Britain's geography, history or
> >constitution.
>
> You really don't have a clue, do you? You really don't know *anything*
> about what is taught in our schools. Try going to a school just for a
> day.
>
> English - vast majority of texts studied are European (and that includes
> British!) / American. Shakespeare compulsory.
>
> Art/ Music - virtually all Eurocentric.
What about all that ethnic art ?
>
> Religious Education - most time spent on Christianity/ Old Testament.
> Of course they learn about other religions, as well. They'll maybe 'do'
> 1 Hindu festival - Divali, but spend weeks preparing the Christmas
> concert and hours over the year singing Christian hymns in Assemblies.
But ignore St. Georges day.
>
> History and Geography - ever thought of reading the National Curriculum?
> *Not* Britain's geography and history? - your ignorance is so profound,
> it flabbergasts me.
>
> Urdu poetry - ah, that old chestnut. If a child learns Frere Jaques,
> that's OK I suppose? African dancing? If you were a 10 year old, which
> would you prefer Morris Dancing or the Wom Wom? Of course, you prefer
> Morris Dancing. These non-English elements of art/ music/ English are a
> tiny fraction of the total.
But increasing.
>
> > Spend all their time rambling on about fighting racism
>
> All their time? Fighting racism, yes, I'm all for that. You approve of
> racism of course?
I don't support all this positive discrimination against whites and quotas for
ethnic minorities in teaching, police and other senior positions.
>
> >and the
> >benefits of a multicultural society rather than a British one.
>
> Britain *is* a multicultural society - they have to live in it.
Britain is NOT a multicultural society apart from English, Scottish, Welsh, Ulster,
Scouse, Cornish, Home Counties, etc. cultures. Britain has a 95% white population
and the fact that Tony Blair opens his mouth and comes out with claims of a
multicultural society is simply glib and baseless.
>
> > Believing that
> >blacks
> >and Asians are angels and the whites are the devil incarnate
>
> In how many schools? How many? Where's your evidence?
>
Oldham, Burnley, Bradford, West Bromwich.
>
> >and denying that
> >black
> >on white or Asian on white racism and racially motivated attacks exist. Claiming
> >the
> >BNP are evil minded
>
> They are, but most teachers don't bother their heads with politics and
> some of them are probably BNP supporters.
>
> >and the trotskyist Socialist Alliance are the way to go.
>
> How many *people*, let alone teachers, are in the Socialist Alliance?
Loads of academic types are in the Socialist Alliance.
>
> Remember, there are 400,000 teachers.
>
> >Claiming that the British are evil
>
> So slavery is *not* evil? Are they to tell children that in buying
> slaves, taking them under inhuman conditions across the Atlantic, and
> selling them, we were doing them a favour? We teach children the
> glories of the defeat of the Armada. Agincourt and Crecy. The
> 'workshop of the world' is proudly ( and rightly) taught in the
> 'Victorians'. So let's keep a balance. You simply ignore all the
> positive things that are taught, and shudder when teachers mention
> things that are not so pleasant. You want to bury your head in the
> sand!
>
The slave trade was a result of the Jewish owned banks which owned the slave
carrying ships and the plantations in the Carribean.
>
> >in what they did during the days of the
> >empire
> >and coming out with statements like they exploited other peoples countries
>
> You poor sap. You *really* think that we didn't exploit them? Why on
> earth do you think we went? What was the East India Company - a
> philanthropic Society? They went to make money, to establish the
> conditions in which money could be made. They exploited both resources
> and labour.
The British gave far more than they took. Just think of all those crop plants
introduced in those countries and all the roads, railways, bridges and telephone
networks built.
Roger Watts
<tec...@niobiumfive.co.uk> writes
>Roger Watts wrote:
>>
>> You agree! and yet you go on doing it. The very fact that you talk
>> about 'Marxist Liberals' is a sign that you really don't have a clue
>> what you're talking about.
>
>I for sure certainly know what it is and how to smell out such left wingers in
>action.
>
There are Marxists and there are liberals - they are very different
political animals. Most Marxists are decidedly illiberal. I suspect
you are really just throwing these words around in an ignorant way
because you think they are pejorative.
>>
>> >especially those teaching social studies or humanities.
>>
>> So one of your Physics teacher friends knows a Sociology teacher who's a
>> leftie - don't we all? But is that any proof that the 'education system
>> is being hijacked'?
>
>I didn't say ALL. Many humanities teachers don't want to involve themselves
>with
>left wing claptrap.
'many humanities teachers' - again you make these sweeping
generalisations, and yet you admit that you have little or no personal
knowledge.
>
>> What a load of Daily Mail tosh. Teachers come from
>> all political persuasions - of course.
>
>I would be very surprised if any were members of the BNP.
I believe there was *one* case where a BNP *candidate* was sacked.
>Teaching unions would
>call
>for them to be sacked. In general teachers tend to be left of centre. Tory
>supporting teachers are quite rare nowadays
Again, unsupported assertion. Do you have some survey results to
support that conclusion?
>and only a handful will dabble with
>the
>nationalist parties like the BNP, NF, Freedom Party etc.
>
>> The majority lead mundane,
>> conservative lives and teach their kids the values of the establishment
>> - honesty, respect for property, hard work, avoidance of violence. But
>> they don't count, I suppose.
>
>They teach what Whitehall sets them.
And what is that? Please quote us chapter and verse of 'what Whitehall
sets them' regarding these areas.
>If its a course in homosexuality
Can you quote a school which has a 'course in homosexuality'? Just one
will do.
>then
>normally
>they have to teach it or get a rap on their knuckles when the inspectors come
>round.
I await your answer so that I can look it up on the OFSTED database.
>> >But they don't indoctrinate children with their bizarre views on things.
>>
>> Most teachers are far too busy teaching to bother with indoctrination,
>> and when they do, it's in mainstream values.
>
>As in New Labour type of stuff. Multicultural and homosexual ?!
You seem rather hung up on the homosexuality thing? Promoting (i.e.
persuading people to become) homosexuality is illegal under Section 28.
So of course you can quote me chapter and verse of the prosecutions that
have been brought?
>
>> What 'bizarre views'? Go to
>> a few school assemblies - day in day out - indoctrination on being
>> better people, better citizens, harder workers.
>
>I think not. Where are you located ? Perhaps some rural parts of Hereford might
>have
>teachers who hold virtues and values and teach using traditional methods but
>many
>schools in big cities are run by indoctrinaire left wing types.
Where *do* you get your information? Please tell us! 'indoctrinaire
left wing types' - an interesting concept. Can you think *why* any
school would teach pupils not to be honest, caring, hard-working, better
people. To do otherwise would be against their own best interests.
*All* schools attempt at least to teach these things because it makes
life a lot easier for the teachers.
And what are these 'non-traditional methods'? As in Summerhill, perhaps?
>
>>
>> >
>> >> There are 400,000 teachers and 25,000 schools. In how many of these
>> >> schools will you find a 'unified socialist culture' (whatever that is)?
>> >
>> >Varies. Schools in rural areas and better off small towns tend to have
>better
>> >quality teachers who are more realistic in their outlook and less likely to
>> >flirt
>> >with the far left than those from many inner city schools.
>>
>> How do you know? How many have you visited? Come on, you make these
>> fantastic claims, where's your evidence? Many of the teachers in inner
>> city schools are very good, they have to be. Some of the teachers who
>> get by in 'rural areas and better off small towns' would sink without
>> trace when faced with the 'realism' of inner city life.
>
>I have seen what goes on in these schools in urban areas. Make a start with
>Sandwell.
How have you seen? Have you visited them, talked to pupils? If you read
OFSTED reports on schools in Sandwell, you don't find them slated for
lack of social and moral education. Some of these schools in very
deprived areas are positive oases in a desert of crime and chaos.
>
>>
>> >
>> >>
>> >> How many of them ban British culture (do *any* not study Shakespeare,
>> >> for example).
>> >
>> >Of course they try to kybosh British culture. Ignore St. Georges day but
>> >celebrate
>> >every Hindu festival. Teach kids things like black studies, African dancing,
>> >Urdu
>> >poetry or all manner of religions but not Britain's geography, history or
>> >constitution.
>>
>> You really don't have a clue, do you? You really don't know *anything*
>> about what is taught in our schools. Try going to a school just for a
>> day.
>>
>> English - vast majority of texts studied are European (and that includes
>> British!) / American. Shakespeare compulsory.
>>
>> Art/ Music - virtually all Eurocentric.
>
>What about all that ethnic art ?
What about all of that ethnic art? Did you study Greek sculpture, or
German music? But of course, you mean art of *black* people! As I say,
a relatively small proportion. Probably no more than studied by our
forefathers in Victorian times. You have been to the V&A, I suppose?
>
>>
>> Religious Education - most time spent on Christianity/ Old Testament.
>> Of course they learn about other religions, as well. They'll maybe 'do'
>> 1 Hindu festival - Divali, but spend weeks preparing the Christmas
>> concert and hours over the year singing Christian hymns in Assemblies.
>
>But ignore St. Georges day.
Another hang-up. I don't recall St George's day being any big deal in
my day at school. I recall that the Scouts and Guides take part in a
church parade then. What's to celebrate? Some foreign person in a
foreign country (outside England and never part of the British Empire -
so you'd have trouble explaining it to your totally English centred
geographers) doing some unbelievable thing probably related to the
crusades.
It's usually only the minority groups who feel so insecure that they
need to state their identity in this way. Who's the patron saint of the
USA?
>
>>
>> History and Geography - ever thought of reading the National Curriculum?
>> *Not* Britain's geography and history? - your ignorance is so profound,
>> it flabbergasts me.
>>
>> Urdu poetry - ah, that old chestnut. If a child learns Frere Jaques,
>> that's OK I suppose? African dancing? If you were a 10 year old, which
>> would you prefer Morris Dancing or the Wom Wom? Of course, you prefer
>> Morris Dancing. These non-English elements of art/ music/ English are a
>> tiny fraction of the total.
>
>But increasing.
Evidence?
>
>>
>> > Spend all their time rambling on about fighting racism
>>
>> All their time? Fighting racism, yes, I'm all for that. You approve of
>> racism of course?
>
>I don't support all this positive discrimination against whites
So tell us again about those 2 clauses in the RRA about preferential
*training* for minority groups.
>and quotas for
>ethnic minorities in teaching,
I'm a governor in what you would call a left-wing authority. I have
never been aware of *any* restriction, ethnic or otherwise, when I help
appoint teachers. I've never seen a quota in any school I've visited.
>police
When we can't recruit enough policemen anyway, 'targets' seem pretty
meaningless and certainly don't prevent white people joining.
>and other senior positions.
>
>>
>> >and the
>> >benefits of a multicultural society rather than a British one.
>>
>> Britain *is* a multicultural society - they have to live in it.
>
>Britain is NOT a multicultural society apart from English, Scottish, Welsh,
>Ulster,
>Scouse, Cornish, Home Counties, etc. cultures. Britain has a 95% white
>population
>and the fact that Tony Blair opens his mouth and comes out with claims of a
>multicultural society is simply glib and baseless.
In fact politicians of all parties are aware that Britain is a de facto
multicultural society - and that predates Blair by many years. Indeed I
would argue that it always has been. White / black are not cultures.
The only thing glib and baseless around here are your 'opinions' about
English schools. You must go around with your eyes closed - and you
accuse *teachers* of being out of touch with reality.
>
>>
>> > Believing that
>> >blacks
>> >and Asians are angels and the whites are the devil incarnate
>>
>> In how many schools? How many? Where's your evidence?
>>
>
>Oldham, Burnley, Bradford, West Bromwich.
In which state schools exactly do teachers teach that whites 'are the
devil incarnate'? Since the vast majority of teachers (even in these
areas) are white themselves, that would be pretty self-defeating,
wouldn't it?
>
>>
>> >and denying that
>> >black
>> >on white or Asian on white racism and racially motivated attacks exist.
>Claiming
>> >the
>> >BNP are evil minded
>>
>> They are, but most teachers don't bother their heads with politics and
>> some of them are probably BNP supporters.
>>
>> >and the trotskyist Socialist Alliance are the way to go.
>>
>> How many *people*, let alone teachers, are in the Socialist Alliance?
>
>Loads of academic types are in the Socialist Alliance.
'Loads'? Come on, quote me numbers?
>
>>
>> Remember, there are 400,000 teachers.
>>
>> >Claiming that the British are evil
>>
>> So slavery is *not* evil? Are they to tell children that in buying
>> slaves, taking them under inhuman conditions across the Atlantic, and
>> selling them, we were doing them a favour? We teach children the
>> glories of the defeat of the Armada. Agincourt and Crecy. The
>> 'workshop of the world' is proudly ( and rightly) taught in the
>> 'Victorians'. So let's keep a balance. You simply ignore all the
>> positive things that are taught, and shudder when teachers mention
>> things that are not so pleasant. You want to bury your head in the
>> sand!
>>
>
>The slave trade was a result of the Jewish owned banks which owned the slave
>carrying ships and the plantations in the Carribean.
Ignore my advice about becoming a governor. I can just see you on an
exclusion appeals panel.
TM "Well, Jimmy, why did you threaten Billy and steal his dinner money?"
Jimmy "I borrowed Ł5 off Sammy to buy the knife, and I have to pay him
10p a week until I pay it back, so I had to steal it".
TM "Oh, that's all right Jimmy, we'll sort Sammy out, just go back to
your class".
Slavery, according to you people, is always someone else's fault, the
Arab traders, the African kings and now the Jewish money lenders.
European aristocracy, plantation owners and sea captains were entirely
innocent.
Can children not at least discuss the morality of slavery because it
might reflect badly on their ancestors?
>
>>
>> >in what they did during the days of the
>> >empire
>> >and coming out with statements like they exploited other peoples countries
>>
>> You poor sap. You *really* think that we didn't exploit them? Why on
>> earth do you think we went? What was the East India Company - a
>> philanthropic Society? They went to make money, to establish the
>> conditions in which money could be made. They exploited both resources
>> and labour.
>
>The British gave far more than they took. Just think of all those crop plants
>introduced in those countries and all the roads, railways, bridges and
>telephone
>networks built.
>
This sounds just like the sort of rationalisation of the teenage burglar
when he steal's someone VCR. It's insured so they'll get a better one.
It doesn't alter the fact that burglary is wrong. And the eventual
supposed gain by countries like India can't overcome the fact that
British people went there to make money by exploiting their physical
power. We know about the forced closing down of Indian textile
factories so that Lancashire could export cotton goods back to India,
for example. But we don't have a crystal ball to know where India would
have got without British influence. Britain did not maintain large
armies, an enormous fleet and civil service simply out of philanthropy -
"let's help the poor Indians with their infra-structure" - they did it
because it paid!
But don't facts spoil your views. Keep on reading the Mail.