Leaky oil-filled electric radiator. Dangerous?
Simon C.
spare room downstairs, what I pretentiously call my 'office'.
I notice the carpet underneath has developed a stain, puddle shaped.
No real colour or smell, but I can only assume the radiator has leaked
oil. The stain doesn't really bother me as its barely visible in the
corner, but is it safe? I'll be repacing the radiator, but should I
rip the carpet up too? Not likely to contain dioxins or similar
nasties is it? The room is well used and don't want to end up
poisoning our kids - or us really.
Tabby
At 15 yrs old, no, no PCBs/dioxins.
NT
Simon C.
wrote:
>On Oct 18, 6:28 pm, Simon C. <Si...@simon.com.> wrote:
>> I've a free-standing [15 yrs old?] electric oil-filled rad in the
>> spare room downstairs, what I pretentiously call my 'office'.
>>
>> I notice the carpet underneath has developed a stain, puddle shaped.
>> No real colour or smell, but I can only assume the radia Not likely to contain dioxins or similar
>> nasties is it? The room is well used and don't want to end up
>> poisoning our kids - or us really.
>
>At 15 yrs old, no, no PCBs/dioxins.
Thanks for that. Do you know what sort of oil its likely to be filled
with? Nothing else nasty? I get a bit paranoid about home safety after
a near nasty fire a while ago [as mentioned in a prev thread] Its an
'EWT' radiator, German manufacture aiui.
alexander.keys1
> On Mon, 18 Oct 2010 10:44:50 -0700 (PDT), Tabby <meow2...@care2.com>
I've come across 'EWT' fan heaters, they seem to be solidly built,
some models with metal cases, I used to work in an asylum seeker's
hostel, a nearby electric shop stocked them and they were popular with
the residents, but not with the site engineer as they overloaded the
rising busbars.... "THEY CANNAE TAKE ANYMORE CAP'N!", and indeed they
couldn't, one day the busbars overheated and bent together.
As for leaking oil radiators, the liquid may be flammable, move it
onto a non-flammable floor surface and contact the importer about
finding an approved repairer.
Tabby
> On Mon, 18 Oct 2010 10:44:50 -0700 (PDT), Tabby <meow2...@care2.com>
I don't know, I'd expect its the cheapest oil, mineral oil aka baby
oil.
NT
Michael Chare
news:75bpb655e60st9g3b...@4ax.com...
>
> Thanks for that. Do you know what sort of oil its likely to be filled
> with? Nothing else nasty? I get a bit paranoid about home safety after
> a near nasty fire a while ago [as mentioned in a prev thread]
If you are using a heater that it is leaking oil I would say that your fears
are not paranoia but fully justified.
--
Michael Chare
Tim Watts
I doubt the oil is anything nasty. But it might cause damage to furnishings.
The big problem is that if the rad loses significant oil, it's going to
stop working once the oil fails to be able to circulate properly. Then
the OP is at the mercy of the overheat failsafe (assuming there is one[1])
.
[1] Don't assume anything. I had a couple of fan heaters that were of
mid quality (not Honeywell good but the next level down). The sodding
things had bottom air intakes to suck the fluff in which blocked the
element causing local hot spots and resultant jets of red hot air that
then melted the crap plastic grills or casing. No effective thermal
fuse. IIRC they did have thermal fuses but those couldn't reliably
detect local hotspots.
This year I have some De'Longhi oil rads - boy those are good. The panel
arrangement (they call it the chimney - look for Dragon or Vento models)
is bloody good. A 2kW unit that's about 600mm long really can put out
2kW without the internal stat cycling - unlike the cheap crap B&Q sell
which are rated 1kW and probably put out about 300W based on the duty cycle.
Tabby
Loss of oil wont cause the thing to overheat, the stat will function
as normal. Its only the element that'll overheat and die.
NT
Tim Watts
> Loss of oil wont cause the thing to overheat, the stat will function
> as normal. Its only the element that'll overheat and die.
Starting a fire as it does so?
That's why I drew caution to the overheat protection vs the normal stat.
I have seen too many badly designed heaters to believe that all of them
will fail safely.
Tabby
How is a non-flammable metal/sand heating element in an enclosed steel
space going to catch fire?
NT
Tim Watts
Causing a hotspot on the dry stell casing next to it?
Tabby
Lets see if we can make some sort of estimate...
Normal case running temp 60C max to avoid burns
Room temp 20C so normal case temp rise is 40C
Ignition temp of Paper: 450 °C (prompt) or 218°-246°C (eventual)
220C is 200C rise so to reach the eventual slow ignition temp of paper
would require the case temp rise to be 5x normal.
At that sort of case temp I'm inclined to think there would be an
awful lot of heating of the rest of the case by conduction, and even
if the stat were in the worst possible place it should still detect
excess temperature and cut out.
NT
Andy Champ
>
> How is a non-flammable metal/sand heating element in an enclosed steel
> space going to catch fire?
>
Presumably the element is at the bottom of the oil container, so the
heat is carried away by rising hot oil.
As the oil level drops it will cease to circulate, the element now being
near the top of the remaining oil.
The oil nearest the element will now receive the entire element output.
Do not leave it unattended!
Andy
Tim Watts
None of this would be a problem if regulations required:
a) High temp thermal fuse fixed to the element at the highest point (ie
lack of oil detector)
b) Lower temp (just under the boiling point of the oil) thermal fuse in
the oil close to the element.
That would constitute enough failsafes for me to feel happy. Alas
sometimes you're lucky if you get any thermal fuses - or if you do, that
they've been sensibly placed.
ARWadsworth
What! And end up paying more than �30 for a rad because of the cost of these
safety devices?
At least you will be warm as you watch the house burn down:-)
--
Adam
Tim Watts
:->
Yes - the 30 quid fan heaters from Argos were good value - they fried
after one year, for the reasons previously mentioned... Despite being
run on a hard floor, not carpet. One melted a hole right through the
plastic!
At least the rather more expensive oil rads I got shouldn't do that, and
will find a second home in the workshop to be once I eventually get CH.
I know that was toungue in cheek - but for the nay-sayers (if any):
(In short - thermal fuses with various operating temps, 10A max normal
operating current, wait for it...
42p+VAT each...
Dave Osborne
Transformer oil.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transformer_oil
No idea whether there's anything nasty in it, but older transformer oils
contained PCB's, which are v. bad.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polychlorinated_biphenyl
15 years old puts your heater at c1995, which is way after 1981 when the
use of PCB's was banned in the UK. So very unlikely to be a problem.
Tabby
Why do you think it would use transformer oil?
NT
Ukjb
Oil by nature is flammable, explosive even, as the radiator looses oil the
heating element will be able to heat the available oil to a hotter
temperature, should the thermostat fail and the element be left on to long the
oil could reach boiling point at which the vapours will be volatile, as the
oil is lost natural air will be drawn in to replace the void, the internal
atmosphere will become oxygen rich, this said their would be others signs like
bubbling boiling noises, smell of the hot oil being burned off into the air
long before the risk of fire, if the radiator is leaking get rid of it and buy
a new one they are not expensive.
--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/uk-diy/leaky-oil-filled-electric-radiator-dangerous-662654-.htm
Ukjb
This is all true, how ever given that their are millions of radiators fans and
heaters in use today, and let's say they should all have 3 or 4 safety cut out
functions on them we would be in dire shortage of radiator engineers as nobody
would have a working radiator. We are talking about radiators here not a
modern motor car
Ukjb
old and has been abused from the day I got it and has never once needed any
maintenance, nor has it ever stopped working or overheated
Ukjb
It's certainly not transformer oil, given that it is around £15 a litre, the
oil would be worth more than the radiator. Their is no perticular oil. Every
manufacturer will use their own modified oil that has certain property's
related to the research that perticular company has carried out
Roger Hayter
> replying to Tabby, Ukjb wrote:
> Oil by nature is flammable, explosive even, as the radiator looses oil the
> heating element will be able to heat the available oil to a hotter
> temperature, should the thermostat fail and the element be left on to long the
> oil could reach boiling point at which the vapours will be volatile, as the
> oil is lost natural air will be drawn in to replace the void, the internal
> atmosphere will become oxygen rich, this said their would be others signs like
> bubbling boiling noises, smell of the hot oil being burned off into the air
> long before the risk of fire, if the radiator is leaking get rid of it and buy
> a new one they are not expensive.
believe that they would encourage the sale of electric radiators full of
inflammable oil.
... A quick Google suggests that in well-regulated markets they tend to
use siloxane oils which are not easily combustible. Very old ones might
use highly carcinogenic oils I've forgotten the name of (but not
inflammable, also used for potting transfomers many years ago), and
apparently in the USA sometimes vegetable oils have been used.
But from a uk perspective, burning oil is probably not a risk with a
reputable make.
[1] many refs, ibid.
--
Roger Hayter
alan_m
> Very old ones might
> use highly carcinogenic oils I've forgotten the name of (but not
> inflammable, also used for potting transfomers many years ago), and
> apparently in the USA sometimes vegetable oils have been used.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzbQjd_Oo4Q
--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk
Geo
<caedfaa9ed1216d60ef...@example.com> wrote:
>replying to Tabby, Ukjb wrote:
followed by:-
https://www.homeownershub.com/uk-diy/leaky-oil-filled-electric-radiator-dangerous-662654-.htm
"
USENET thread is quite clearly visible in the top righthand corner :-
"posted on October 19, 2010, 9:19 pm"
Why do people have so much trouble seeing it?
tabb...@gmail.com
NT
harry
newshound
> On 01/12/2018 16:05, Roger Hayter wrote:
>
>> Very old ones might
>> use highly carcinogenic oils I've forgotten the name of (but not
>> inflammable, also used for potting transfomers many years ago), and
>> apparently in the USA sometimes vegetable oils have been used.
>
>
> Oil filled transformers do explode!
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzbQjd_Oo4Q
>
>
sprays into the atmosphere. There is a *lot* of external energy being
supplied to a transformer.
Going back to the OPs suggestion, I don't believe you will get an oxygen
rich atmosphere inside in the scenario he describes. With air and oil on
a hot element, the oil will oxidise, and "getter" the oxygen.
Tim+
probably other places too) where the date isn’t at all obvious or even
present. It’s only when the link for context is generated that the date
becomes obvious. Look at this example.
https://www.homeownershub.com/answers/thermostat-british-gas-wr1-receiver-drayton-digistat-4121
I can’t see a date anywhere. I doubt it’s a new post though.
Such is the brilliance of the HOH interface, replies are all sorted by date
of first post, not the most recent answer so respondents using HOH not only
reply to ancient posts, they probably never see any replies to their
messages either unless they start a new thread, which they seem loath to
do.
HOH is about generating traffic to increase advertising revenue. It’s not
designed to “work”.
Tim
--
Please don't feed the trolls
Geo
>Geo <nhhu...@dea.spamcon.org> wrote:
>> When I go to that horrible website the date of the last post in the
>> USENET thread is quite clearly visible in the top righthand corner :-
>>
>> "posted on October 19, 2010, 9:19 pm"
>>
>> Why do people have so much trouble seeing it?
>>
>
>I think HOH invites people to answer questions on the home page (and
>probably other places too) where the date isn’t at all obvious or even
>present. It’s only when the link for context is generated that the date
>becomes obvious. Look at this example.
>
>https://www.homeownershub.com/answers/thermostat-british-gas-wr1-receiver-drayton-digistat-4121
>
>I can’t see a date anywhere. I doubt it’s a new post though.
What a shit website.
John Rumm
> Geo <nhhu...@dea.spamcon.org> wrote:
>> On Sat, 01 Dec 2018 15:14:07 GMT, Ukjb
>> <caedfaa9ed1216d60ef...@example.com> wrote:
>>
>>> replying to Tabby, Ukjb wrote:
>>
>> <lots of stuff of no use to an 8 year old thread>
>>
>> followed by:-
>> "for full context, visit
>> https://www.homeownershub.com/uk-diy/leaky-oil-filled-electric-radiator-dangerous-662654-.htm
>> "
>>
>> When I go to that horrible website the date of the last post in the
>> USENET thread is quite clearly visible in the top righthand corner :-
>>
>> "posted on October 19, 2010, 9:19 pm"
>>
>> Why do people have so much trouble seeing it?
>>
>
> I think HOH invites people to answer questions on the home page (and
> probably other places too) where the date isn’t at all obvious or even
> present.
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/File:HoHFrontPage.png
the "best rated discussions" are not show with a date at the top level.
I wonder where it derives the ratings from?
(and more to the point, could we game it, so as to make it promote posts
of our choice?)
> Such is the brilliance of the HOH interface, replies are all sorted by date
> of first post, not the most recent answer so respondents using HOH not only
> reply to ancient posts, they probably never see any replies to their
> messages either unless they start a new thread, which they seem loath to
> do.
new HoH poster on an old thread, whereas sometimes you get one when they
are posting on a new thread.
Chances are if it stops promoting the old thread after a new HoH poster
has added to it, they can then only find it by potentially looking back
through tens of thousands of pages to find the thread again!
> HOH is about generating traffic to increase advertising revenue. It’s not
> designed to “work”.
--
Cheers,
John.
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tabb...@gmail.com
> On 02/12/2018 15:06, Tim+ wrote:
> > Geo <nhhu...@dea.spamcon.org> wrote:
> >> On Sat, 01 Dec 2018 15:14:07 GMT, Ukjb
> >> <caedfaa9ed1216d60ef...@example.com> wrote:
> >>> replying to Tabby, Ukjb wrote:
> Yup, if you look at:
>
> http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/File:HoHFrontPage.png
>
> the "best rated discussions" are not show with a date at the top level.
>
> I wonder where it derives the ratings from?
> (and more to the point, could we game it, so as to make it promote posts
> of our choice?)
NT
John Rumm
tabb...@gmail.com
>
> > The wiki differences function is broken.
>
> In what way?
John Rumm
previously source edited. The visual editor reformats the text without
actually changing the content, but the diff sees it as a change.
subsequent edits should diff ok.