Electrical safety requirements in a rental property

[Dave N]

Slightly OT as not strictly DIY...

I've just had an electrical safety check done (through the managing agent) on a small rental house that I own (now a legal requirement), and the contractor is stating that three things need to be remediated: 1. Replacement of some old R80 spotlights with GU10 fittings 2. Earth bonding and 3. Moving the cooker switch to under the counter top. He also appears to want rather a lot for that. The last check only 5 years ago didn't require any of these.

I can understand the wisdom of the earth bonding requirements in particular, but am uncertain of the real need for the other two (the lights are in the living room, and half the country's electric cookers probably have high level switches above them). Have the regulations changed since the last inspection, and if so do they really have to be applied retrospectively?

TIA,

David.

[Chris Green]

The cooker switch seems very strange to me. Having the switch
relatively inaccessible under the counter seems a retrograde step.

Ideally it should, I suppose, be to one side of the hob (assuming
that's what it's above at the moment) but given the size of some
kitchens nowadays there has to be a bit of compromise.

--
Chris Green
·

[Robin]

I can't answer reliably the first part of that but on the "applied
retrospectively" I'll offer a firm "yes if it's a safty issue".


IMO it was yet another cock-up by officials and/or gold-plating by the
safety lobbies advising them:

a. the regulations require landlords to "ensure that the electrical
safety standards are met during any period when the residential premises
are occupied under a specified tenancy;" and

b. define "“electrical safety standards” means the standards for
electrical installations in the eighteenth edition of the Wiring
Regulations,"

c. it was pointed out when the draft regs were published that this
seemed to mean properties had to meet the 18th

d. the official response - rather than to amend the draft - was to say
that "Existing installations that have been installed in accordance with
earlier editions of the Wiring Regulations may not comply with the 18th
edition in every respect. This does not necessarily mean that they are
unsafe for continued use or require upgrading."

e. they have a fig leaf in the way the 18th edition has "existing
installations that have been installed in accordance with earlier
editions of the regulations may not comply with this edition in every
respect. This does not necessarily mean that they are unsafe for
continued use or require upgrading”. But I'd still argue it's sloppy
drafting.

Anyhow, in short you are in the hands of the report. If that says
there's a safety issue (code C1 or C2) you need it done - or a different
report. Code C3 is optional.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

[alan_m]

On 14/10/2020 11:54, Chris Green wrote:

> The cooker switch seems very strange to me. Having the switch
> relatively inaccessible under the counter seems a retrograde step.
>
> Ideally it should, I suppose, be to one side of the hob (assuming
> that's what it's above at the moment) but given the size of some
> kitchens nowadays there has to be a bit of compromise.

I believe there are regulations/recommendations about not placing the
switch above a hob and about how far it has to be away at the side of a
hob. Friends had this problem when replacing a "standard" oven with top
plate burners with a monster double width beast requiring anyone
operating the existing switch to lean over the hob which is also a no-no.


--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

[Dave N]

I've confirmed with the agents that these have all been marked as C2. Apparently they have been getting loads of such queries since the new regs came in, and there seems to be a lack of clarity about exactly what deficiencies constitute a C2 so it's possible that a different contractor could interpret some of them as C3. The agents are asking for a second opinion. The cooker switch is a particular problem in this case as moving it would probably involve quite a lot of making good as well.

[Jack Harry Teesdale]

On 14/10/2020 14:00, Dave N wrote:
> I've confirmed with the agents that these have all been marked as C2. Apparently they have been getting loads of such queries since the new regs came in, and there seems to be a lack of clarity about exactly what deficiencies constitute a C2 so it's possible that a different contractor could interpret some of them as C3. The agents are asking for a second opinion. The cooker switch is a particular problem in this case as moving it would probably involve quite a lot of making good as well.
>

If the hob isolator is directly above the hob, i doubt that any
competent electrician would classify it as c3.

[tim...]

"Dave N" <david...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:e7a14ad6-b081-4a65...@googlegroups.com...

> Slightly OT as not strictly DIY...
>
> I've just had an electrical safety check done (through the managing agent)
> on a small rental house that I own (now a legal requirement), and the
> contractor is stating that three things need to be remediated: 1.
> Replacement of some old R80 spotlights with GU10 fittings

Is that really a requirement of a safety check, surely the bulbs that you
put in a socket is a user issue. If they are of a standard type (which IIRC
R80 is, they can easily be replace with LED bulls of the same fitting - a
pound each at a the um, pound shop, if there really is a law requiring such
bulbs.


>2. Earth bonding

OK, give him that one (as long as it really is substandard)

>and 3. Moving the cooker switch to under the counter top.

AIUI the requirement is that it should be remote from the cooker by some
(unknown to me) distance.

Under countertop seems a bit obscure

There isn't even an under counted top space in my kitchen to put one - every
space under counter top has a cupboard/appliance in it. and in a small
kitchen who the flip would design it otherwise?

>He also appears to want rather a lot for that. The last check only 5 years
>ago didn't require any of these.

get that guy back in again then

using the one contacted by the MA just leaves LLs open to all the normal
kick-back scams.

lesson learned. Never ever use their "man" again.


tim

[GB]

On 14/10/2020 14:15, tim... wrote:

>> and 3. Moving the cooker switch to under the counter top.
>
> AIUI the requirement is that it should be remote from the cooker by some
> (unknown to me) distance.

So you can turn the power off under a chip pan fire without getting
burnt, is that the idea?

[Robin]

There's long been guidance in the OSG that it's a "bad thing" to fit a
cooker unit directly above a cooker. But I've never been clear if that's:

'cos of chip fires (an emergency for which I'd recommend using the
consumer unit anyway)

'cos of the heat/steam/smoke from cooking

'cos a lot of them have a socket and there's the risk of flex across the hob

let alone on the basis of which reg(s).

With luck Adam will tell us what he codes them - and whether the less
savoury end of the market does the same.

[ARW]

Well the OSG says the switch "SHOULD not be above the cooker" and not
"MUST not be above the cooker".

Probably C3 unless really low down and showing signs of heat damage, but
a C2 if it has a socket.

--
Adam

[ARW]

On 14/10/2020 14:00, Dave N wrote:

> I've confirmed with the agents that these have all been marked as C2. Apparently they have been getting loads of such queries since the new regs came in, and there seems to be a lack of clarity about exactly what deficiencies constitute a C2 so it's possible that a different contractor could interpret some of them as C3. The agents are asking for a second opinion. The cooker switch is a particular problem in this case as moving it would probably involve quite a lot of making good as well.
>

Any reason it cannot be blanked off?

Switches in a cupboard (to the front of the cupboard) are acceptable.

--
Adam

[ARW]

On 14/10/2020 11:45, Dave N wrote:

The swapping of the spot lights seems absurd. I would be asking the
electrician for a reg for that one.

Bonding regs have not altered in the last 5 years so I have no idea why
it passed last time and not this time.

See my other posts.

BTW You are not obliged to use him for the remedial works.


--
Adam

[Brian Gaff (Sofa)]

I guess you need to ask to see the actual bit of the regs that state that
existing installations unless changed recently need to be adhered to as a
new installation might.
I don't like those spotlights, apparently they have been known to set
curtains alight, but I bet you will tell us they are nowhere near a curtain!

Brian

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"Chris Green" <c...@isbd.net> wrote in message
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[Brian Gaff (Sofa)]

Trouble is to turn mine off I need to get on my knees, if I were a little
less fit, I'd never get up again.

Brian

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"alan_m" <ju...@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message
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[tim...]

"Robin" <r...@outlook.com> wrote in message
news:7475d714-58d9-c210...@outlook.com...

Here's a sort of summary

https://www.davidsavery.com/index.php/free-advice/147-does-a-cooker-need-an-isolator-switch

"If you’re having a new kitchen, it is considered best practice for a cooker
switch to be installed within two metres of the appliance, but not within
300mm of its hot surface"

Oh dear, mine, installed only a year ago, are at 200

[Robin]

On 14/10/2020 18:53, ARW wrote:

>
> Well the OSG says the switch "SHOULD not be above the cooker" and not
> "MUST not be above the cooker".
>
> Probably C3 unless really low down and showing signs of heat damage, but
> a C2 if it has a socket.
>

Thanks for that.

[Theo]

ARW <adamwa...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> The swapping of the spot lights seems absurd. I would be asking the
> electrician for a reg for that one.

Had an EICR and they flagged that spotlights weren't fire safe - since they
allow access for fire into the roof cavity around the bulb. Can't remember
what level that was, I assume C3.

Maybe that's what they're getting at here? A GU10 might be an enclosed
fitting where an R80 isn't. Maybe that would be C2 if there was a habitable
room above (eg another flat)?

I've replaced with LED downlights anyway so that niggle is ticked off.
(I hated the original spots anyway)

Theo

[ARW]

That was one of my thoughts.


But the replacements for R80's are usually something like this (R80
spots usually have big cut outs)

https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/MLHCW.html?

And they do not seem to be fire rated.




--
Adam

[Dave N]

I've finally seen the report - 3 items as C2. It seems that the electrician couldn't see any bonding to the pipework (I bet there is somewhere, but couldn't say where. As far as I know the 17th edition regs required this, and there wasn't anything mentioned 5 years ago); the electrician's words about the lights are "lighting connection behind downlights downstairs are in connectors [sic]". No idea what he meant by this - choc blocks, perhaps (but new fittings also use these)? Perhaps they are loose? There are only two bedrooms upstairs, not even a bathroom, so fire rated lights would be recommended but as far as I know not mandatory. Finally "Cooker switch in wrong position". If I remember correctly the switch is well above the hob, doesn't have a socket and shows no sign of heat damage after over 30 years there. He also mentioned the 17th edition consumer unit as C3.

[ARW]

That is interesting reading and makes some very good points.

Thanks for posting the link.


Delighted that he said "average abode".

"Some would say that a cooker switch is unnecessary in the home because
the circuit can be isolated from the consumer unit which, although not
usually within two metres of the cooker, is still close by in your
average abode."


It's 60m from the CU to the cooker in the 3 bed bungalow I am rewiring.
Probably the weirdest abode I have worked in.


--
Adam

[Vir Campestris]

On 15/10/2020 21:53, ARW wrote:
> It's 60m from the CU to the cooker in the 3 bed bungalow I am rewiring.
> Probably the weirdest abode I have worked in.

How the heck did they manage to do that in a 3-bed bungalow? That's the
length of 10 decent sized bedrooms!

Andy

[ARW]

Well the cooker is the furthest point from the CU. It's an odd building.




--
Adam

[Max Demian]

On 15/10/2020 21:53, ARW wrote:

Some safety-conscious people might want to switch the cooker off when
it's not being used, which is much easier with a switch next to the
cooker. The CU may be in a dark cupboard full of spiders, and the wrong
circuit might be switched off.

Some thermostats and simmerstats might not switch off reliably.

(I don't switch my cooker off as the hob has lights that show that the
elements are still above 60C and the oven has a cooling fan that stays
on until the whole thing has cooled down enough.)

--
Max Demian

[Chris Green]

I expect the CU is outside somewhere, it's not unknown. We have two
CUs and one is in the garage a good 30 metres from the house (but it
does only control outdoor/garage circuits). The incomer, company
fuse, meter and so on are in the garage too.

--
Chris Green
·

[spuorg...@gowanhill.com]

On Thursday, 15 October 2020 21:40:17 UTC+1, Dave N wrote:
> "lighting connection behind downlights downstairs are in connectors [sic]".
> No idea what he meant by this - choc blocks, perhaps (but new fittings
> also use these)? Perhaps they are loose?

More likely not in enclosures.

Owain

[Mike Clarke]

On 15/10/2020 21:40, Dave N wrote:

> the electrician's words about the lights are "lighting connection behind downlights downstairs are in connectors [sic]". No idea what he meant by this - choc blocks, perhaps (but new fittings also use these)?

Probably because the terminals are accessible and cable doesn't have the
outer insulation sheaf where it meets the connectors. It should be
sufficient to put the connectors in a suitable enclosure clamping the
outer sheaf.

[bert]

In article <rm8se0$574$1...@dont-email.me>, tim... <timsn...@gmail.com>
writes

Mines on top of a wall cupboard, but not above the hob.
--
bert

[tim...]

"Max Demian" <max_d...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:sO6dndRp-f_dWRXC...@brightview.co.uk...

and have to reset the clock every time

no thanks

[tim...]

"Dave N" <david...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:d6830e3a-3f64-4038...@googlegroups.com...

> I've finally seen the report - 3 items as C2. It seems that the
> electrician couldn't see any bonding to the pipework (I bet there is
> somewhere, but couldn't say where. As far as I know the 17th edition regs
> required this, and there wasn't anything mentioned 5 years ago);

I had one of these checks when I wanted to upgrade some electrical circuits
in a (not rented) house

the tester said

you need to add earth bonding

I said "it's plastic pipework, what are you going to do"

I got no reply.

I honestly don't know if there is a right answer.

[ARW]

On 15/10/2020 21:40, Dave N wrote:

> I've finally seen the report - 3 items as C2. It seems that the electrician couldn't see any bonding to the pipework (I bet there is somewhere, but couldn't say where. As far as I know the 17th edition regs required this, and there wasn't anything mentioned 5 years ago); the electrician's words about the lights are "lighting connection behind downlights downstairs are in connectors [sic]". No idea what he meant by this - choc blocks, perhaps (but new fittings also use these)? Perhaps they are loose? There are only two bedrooms upstairs, not even a bathroom, so fire rated lights would be recommended but as far as I know not mandatory. Finally "Cooker switch in wrong position". If I remember correctly the switch is well above the hob, doesn't have a socket and shows no sign of heat damage after over 30 years there. He also mentioned the 17th edition consumer unit as C3.
>

If it is the water that is not bonded then it's probably boxed in. The
EICR requires you to verify the continuity and connections. It can be a
tough one when you can see the clamp behind the kitchen unit but cannot
access it etc.


Sounds like choc boxes "might" solve the lights problem.

The cooker switch is his personal recommendation. There is not much you
can do about it. I did suggest blanking it off. That should not be
expensive or messy.





--
Adam

[Dave N]

Here's an update:

I thought the quote looked a bit high - for comparison, in our own house a couple of years ago we had an old fuse board replaced with a new 18th edition consumer unit, a new circuit installed for a shed about 20 metres away using armoured cable and a small CU in the shed, earth bonding added to 18th edition standards and an inspection and test report done, all for about the same price. Anyway, I asked the agents for a second quote and (surprise surprise) it was nearly half the price, including another test report. This quote was properly itemised and the prices look reasonable, so I gave them the go-ahead for the work. Replacing the recessed R80 ceiling spotlights with fire rated GU10 units and an adapter would be a prudent move anyway, even if fire rated units aren't strictly needed. The second quote was for blanking off the cooker switch and putting it in the cupboard, and the price was reasonable, so in the end I thought it wasn't worth quibbling over.

Many thanks for all the advice :)

David.

[Scott]

Am I missing something, but surely you want to be able to get to the
switch if the cooker malfunctions (or does the fuse and RCD take care
of this?).

[Scott]

On Wed, 14 Oct 2020 20:22:41 +0100, "Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)"
<bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>I guess you need to ask to see the actual bit of the regs that state that
>existing installations unless changed recently need to be adhered to as a
>new installation might.
> I don't like those spotlights, apparently they have been known to set
>curtains alight, but I bet you will tell us they are nowhere near a curtain!
>

I don't like them either. We used to have them and they lasted about
two weeks. Some question the colour rendition properties of LED but
to my mind the low energy consumption reduction in heat output make it
all worthwhile. My bedside lamp - used for reading - is still
halogen, but I think it's the only one.

[ARW]

I did say put the switch to the front of the cupboard to make it accessible.

--
Adam

[tim...]

"Scott" <newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3q20pftect4g7p8au...@4ax.com...

> On Wed, 14 Oct 2020 20:22:41 +0100, "Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)"
> <bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>I guess you need to ask to see the actual bit of the regs that state that
>>existing installations unless changed recently need to be adhered to as a
>>new installation might.
>> I don't like those spotlights, apparently they have been known to set
>>curtains alight, but I bet you will tell us they are nowhere near a
>>curtain!
>>
> I don't like them either.

I hate spots, full stop

bloody stupid way to light a room - creating random dark and light patches

[Scott]

On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 17:26:30 +0100, ARW

Would our tenants know about this in an emergency? Surely the switch
needs to be visible?

[Andrew]

On 15/10/2020 22:15, Vir Campestris wrote:

Not to mention the length/cost of 10mm T&E

[ARW]

Depends on the quality of tenant.

I did a load of social housing new builds in Scunthorpe last year.

One of them complained the bathroom light did not work.

It never occurred to them to try the light switch on the wall outside
the bathroom door. They had tried the shower pull switch that was behind
the bathroom door a couple of times.

There is no reg that says a cooker switch should be visible.



--
Adam