Araldite or wood glue?
JimT
Can anyone tell me if Araldite would be as strong as wood glue for the
following application? It's a guitar restoration job; I need to glue a
rosewood bridge onto the spruce top of an acoustic guitar. Why am I
thinking of using Araldite, instead of wood glue?... It's a
restoration job, and the old bridge is somewhat distorted, whereas the
top of the guitar is dead flat. If I use araldite, the glue will fill
out the spaces betwen the warped bridge and the flat surface, whereas
wood glue won't. Wood glue shrinks as it dries out and therefor won't
fill out those spaces. The resulting joint needs to be as strong as
possible.
Many thanks
JimT
sPoNiX
JB weld?
Glen
A few places for you to ask this question.....either on the
rec.music.makers.guitars.acoustic newsgroup, or on the nets best acoustic
guitar forum, www.13thfret.com . There are many top/amateur luthiers who
hang out here (...along with plain old guitar loving joes like me....), and
they are more glad to provide such answers. A friendlier forum you probably
won't find.
cheers
Glen
gribblechips
"Glen" <ti...@ting.net> wrote in message
news:Qkh2d.74$7X...@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net...
If the bridge has a replaceable saddle, I would be tempted to sand the
bottom of the bridge flat and then use a wood glue. Then use a new saddle to
get the stings up to the height you`ve lost by sanding.
At least then you`ll have the option of trying again if you fit it up and
find that the intonation is all out. You won`t get epoxy off.
That said it`s probably a good idea to ask somone who does this sort of
thing all the time as suggested above.
Will
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JimT
<Idont...@all.com> wrote:
>>If the bridge has a replaceable saddle, I would be tempted to sand the
>>bottom of the bridge flat and then use a wood glue. Then use a new saddle to
>>get the stings up to the height you`ve lost by sanding.
Thanks for the suggestion, but I cannot sand anything off the bottom
of the brisge, because it has two thin fancy bits that protrude from
each end.
Jim
JimT
>>Hi Jim...
>>
>>A few places for you to ask this question.....either on the
>>rec.music.makers.guitars.acoustic newsgroup, or on the nets best acoustic
>>guitar forum, www.13thfret.com . There are many top/amateur luthiers who
>>hang out here (...along with plain old guitar loving joes like me....)
Hi Glen, Thanks for the lead. I wasn't aware of www.13fret.com. Will
take a look.
Jim
Cicero
"JimT" <provi...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:41499021...@news.individual.net...
There are many different kinds of wood glue.
'Cascamite' is a water-proof dry powder glue which is mixed with water and
it can also have sawdust mixed in to create bulk which is what you require.
Screwfix sell their own version under the trade name, 'Extramite'. Have a
look at: www.Screwfix.co.uk if you can't find 'Cascamite' which you may need
to buy from a good tool / hardware shop.
p.s. Just out of curiosity, are you sure that the bridge should be glued? I
really don't know anything about guitar bridges but as far as I know the
bridges on other stringed instruments such as violins are loose fitted and
held in place by the tension of the strings. Perhaps someone will confirm or
otherwise?
Cic.
tony sayer
<shel...@hellfire.co.uk> writes
ISTR that this is the case. My fist wife's father was a violin maker and
I think that the string tension was what did the trick. In any case the
strings should be able to hold it without any trouble unless he/she is
going at 10 times the speed of Nick Pagaini:)
--
Tony Sayer
JimT
wrote:
>>There are many different kinds of wood glue.
>>
>>'Cascamite' is a water-proof dry powder glue which is mixed with water and
>>it can also have sawdust mixed in to create bulk which is what you require.
Hi Cicero, I remember Cascamite from when I was a kid, about 45 years
ago!
>>Screwfix sell their own version under the trade name, 'Extramite'. Have a
>>look at: www.Screwfix.co.uk if you can't find 'Cascamite' which you may need
>>to buy from a good tool / hardware shop.
Thanks for the tip.
>>
>>p.s. Just out of curiosity, are you sure that the bridge should be glued?
Yes; absolutely. Admittedly thee *are* some guitars that have
non-glued bridges (archtops, sometimes). But on most acoustic guitars,
the bridge is glued on and the strings are attached to it by means of
pegs (bridge pins) that pass right through the bridge and the guitar's
top.
Jim
>>Cic.
>>
>>
>>
JimT
wrote:
>>'Cascamite' is a water-proof dry powder glue which is mixed with water and
>>it can also have sawdust mixed in to create bulk which is what you require.
PS.. could you tell me why cascamite mixed with sawdust would be
better than everyday wood glue mixed with sawdust?
Thanks
Jim
gribblechips
"tony sayer" <to...@bancom.co.uk> wrote in message
news:s12oj6Ap...@bancom.co.uk...
Some guitars do use a similar arrangement with the bridge held down by
string tension, as on a violin. This does however require as (again as in a
violin) a tailpiece to hold the tension of the strings. Most acoustic and
classical guitars fix the strings to the bridge and it consequently needs
sticking down quite firmly to cope with the tension which can be
substantial.
Cicero
============
I'm not really sure except that you can do a stiff mix with cascamite which
will hold the added sawdust. Standard ready-mixed glue has only one
consistency and as you know it's usually pretty 'runny' . Of course if you
wanted you could delay bringing the parts together until the glue gets close
to the end of its 'open' time.
Since you remember Cascamite from school days you may also remember the use
of a 'rubbed joint' made with the old animal glue. The technique was to glue
both surfaces to be joined and then slide them against each other until you
could get almost no further movement. At this stage you allowed the glue to
set and the result was a strong joint with no gaps in the glue. It might be
worth a try as it's a traditional method.
Cic.
dave @ stejonda
<provi...@aol.com> writes
--
dave @ stejonda
Jerry Built
> Can anyone tell me if Araldite would be as strong as wood glue
> for the following application? It's a guitar restoration job;
> I need to glue a rosewood bridge onto the spruce top of an
> acoustic guitar. Why am I thinking of using Araldite, instead
> of wood glue?... It's a restoration job, and the old bridge
> is somewhat distorted, whereas the top of the guitar is dead
> flat. If I use araldite, the glue will fill out the spaces
> betwen the warped bridge and the flat surface, whereas wood
> glue won't. Wood glue shrinks as it dries out and therefor
> won't fill out those spaces. The resulting joint needs to be
> as strong as possible.
I should have thought pearl glue would be most appropriate for
this - it is for violins, cellos etc (if they're of any quality).
I would also be tempted to improve the mating of the joint.
Perhaps you could hold the bridge between blocks, and flat it
with abrasive paper on an offcut of planed timber. It would also
be worth cleaning the face. If this is no good or not worthwhile,
I'd use old-fashioned (non fast curing) Araldite.
J.B.
JimT
wrote:
>>Since you remember Cascamite from school days you may also remember the use
>>of a 'rubbed joint' made with the old animal glue.
No - I can't remember any animal glue at all. However, this guitar
which was made at the beginning of the 20th century was indeed
constructed with some sort of animal glue. I found that when I soaked
the bridge in water, the very hard glue on the underside turned to a
sort of jelly - I wondered if it might be glue maid from boiled
hooves, fish heads or whatever.
>>The technique was to glue
>>both surfaces to be joined and then slide them against each other until you
>>could get almost no further movement. At this stage you allowed the glue to
>>set and the result was a strong joint with no gaps in the glue. It might be
>>worth a try as it's a traditional method.
Thanks for the suggestion. A purist mightt have wanted to do this
repair using period methods, but it wouldn't solve the problem of the
gaps in the mating surfaces. I'm not sure where one would get
old-fasioned animal glue anyway... and I have no qualms about using
modern materials. Whatever does the job best..
Jim
JimT
wrote:
Thanks JB - I'm leaning towards Araldite. I'm not the kind of purist
who wants to use traditional glues. I just want something that works,
is strong, and will last.
Jim
Cicero
I'm sure that you could get the old-fashioned animal glue if it became a
real issue but as you're more concerned with getting a playable guitar then
the best glue is almost certainly a modern one. The only reservation I would
have is that the wooden parts you're trying to join will be contaminated by
the old glue (whatever it was) because by its nature glue sinks into the
wood. You'll need very thorough cleaning before using a different glue from
that used originally. If you use Cascamite mixed with sawdust as I
originally suggested you might be able to build up a fillet at the base of
your bridge where it meets the guitar body. I don't know what that will do
for the acoustics but at least it will make a stronger joint.
Cic.
Cic.
Andy Dingley
>Can anyone tell me if Araldite would be as strong as wood glue for the
>following application?
Well no, but do you really care ?
Araldite is not a good epoxy to use (but it's probably convenient).
You're always better off using a simple unadulterated epoxy resin
(like West Systems) and mixing in the right fillers for the job in
hand. Araldite is chock full of gunge to make it store well and easy
to mix, and that spoils its behaviour as an adhesive.
Also epoxy is rigid and unmoving, whereas wood shifts with moisture.
Make a wide cross-grain joint and it's likely to crack off (JB Weld
is even worse).
There's also the conservation aspect. Epoxy fixes most things, but it
makes them a real pain to fix next time around. I'd incline to a hide
glue, especially for anything musical. As you've noticed, it's
dismantleable by damp heat in the future.
This is the _bridge_ FFS ! Fool around with JB Weld here and it'll
sound like a dustbin afterwards.
If you don't want to fool around with hot hide glue (pearl glue), then
find a decent toolshop (like www.axminster.co.uk) and get a tube of
Titebond's cold liquid hide glue. Dead easy to use, handy for veneer
repairs too (or even leather straps!), and it's the right stuff.
--
Smert' spamionam
The Natural Philosopher
Epoxy will do the job, but I am a bit bervous about introducing it
between teh bridge and boidy. Acoustics etc.
I'd definitely try and stick a bit of emery paper on te bosy and sand
teh bridge to match to get as near as possible wood-to-wood contact with
just a little glue line in there.
Then I'd probably use cyanoacrylate meself...
> Many thanks
>
> JimT
>
>
The Natural Philosopher
(acoustic) Guitar bridges mostly hold thee strings as well so need to be
strong in shear.
> Cic.
>
>
>
The Natural Philosopher
Cascamite sets very hard and brittle, which is probably best accoustically.
> Thanks
>
> Jim
Jake
<din...@codesmiths.com> wrote:
>>On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:15:25 GMT, provi...@aol.com (JimT) wrote:
>>
>>>Can anyone tell me if Araldite would be as strong as wood glue for the
>>>following application?
>>
>>Well no, but do you really care ?
>>
>>Araldite is not a good epoxy to use (but it's probably convenient).
>>You're always better off using a simple unadulterated epoxy resin
>>(like West Systems) and mixing in the right fillers for the job in
>>hand. Araldite is chock full of gunge to make it store well and easy
>>to mix, and that spoils its behaviour as an adhesive.
>>
>>Also epoxy is rigid and unmoving, whereas wood shifts with moisture.
>>Make a wide cross-grain joint and it's likely to crack off (JB Weld
>>is even worse).
>>
>>There's also the conservation aspect. Epoxy fixes most things, but it
>>makes them a real pain to fix next time around. I'd incline to a hide
>>glue, especially for anything musical. As you've noticed, it's
>>dismantleable by damp heat in the future.
>>
>>This is the _bridge_ FFS ! Fool around with JB Weld here and it'll
>>sound like a dustbin afterwards.
Oh, phooey! The difference wouldn't be detectable by any normal human
being. You'd get much more acoustic variance by the amount of your
body or clothing that's pressing aginst the back and sides of the
guitar while playing than the type of glue used for the bridge!
Jake Daley
Jake
wrote:
You really should learn your subject before giving advice on a subject
you clearly aren't knowledgeable in. The bridge on a typical acoustic
guitar does not take the tension of the strings. The bridge plate
under the top takes most of the tension. The strings then pass over
the bridge saddle, and the string tension actually presses the bridge
downwards onto the top.
Jake
The Natural Philosopher
Not so. The acoustics there are of the high stress low amplitude
variety. You need something that will transmit sound very very accurately.
Jake
Jim, Have a look at:
http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/Data/Materials/gluechart.html
Jake
Andy Dingley
>>>This is the _bridge_ FFS ! Fool around with JB Weld here and it'll
>>>sound like a dustbin afterwards.
>
>Oh, phooey! The difference wouldn't be detectable by any normal human
>being.
Who said guitar players were normal ? Even if you can't hear it,
they're like hifi nuts and their oxygen-free speaker cables. The
placebo effect is as important as any actual reality.
Besides which, I'm talking about JB Weld, not plain epoxy. Now that
you can start to hear.
Jim T
wrote:
============
>>I'm sure that you could get the old-fashioned animal glue if it became a
>>real issue but as you're more concerned with getting a playable guitar then
>>the best glue is almost certainly a modern one. The only reservation I would
>>have is that the wooden parts you're trying to join will be contaminated by
>>the old glue (whatever it was) because by its nature glue sinks into the
>>wood. You'll need very thorough cleaning before using a different glue from
>>that used originally.
Good point; thank you for pointing it out.
> If you use Cascamite mixed with sawdust as I
>>originally suggested you might be able to build up a fillet at the base of
>>your bridge where it meets the guitar body. I don't know what that will do
>>for the acoustics but at least it will make a stronger joint.
Thanks again for your help.
Jim T
The Natural Philosopher
Not on the ones I have played. The bridge rocks forward under tension.
Sure the strings go down into the body, but the whole thing still takes
massive tension and that has to be distributed all over the guitar body
or the bridge will tear off. Mine didn't have a bridge plate underneath
either.
I accept my experience is mostly with steel strung and not nylon strung
spanish style guitars tho.
> Jake
>
raden
<shel...@hellfire.co.uk> writes
>
>
>p.s. Just out of curiosity, are you sure that the bridge should be glued? I
>really don't know anything about guitar bridges but as far as I know the
>bridges on other stringed instruments such as violins are loose fitted and
>held in place by the tension of the strings. Perhaps someone will confirm or
>otherwise?
>
name of the bloody thing?)
The strings on a traditional acoustic guitar terminate on the bridge by
pegs which fir through the guitar body
Just look at a picture of each and you'll instantly see what I'm saying
--
geoff
raden
<provi...@aol.com> writes
--
geoff
raden
<din...@codesmiths.com> writes
>On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 08:00:31 GMT, Jake...@ntl.com (Jake ) wrote:
>
>>>>This is the _bridge_ FFS ! Fool around with JB Weld here and it'll
>>>>sound like a dustbin afterwards.
>>
>>Oh, phooey! The difference wouldn't be detectable by any normal human
>>being.
>
>Who said guitar players were normal ? Even if you can't hear it,
>they're like hifi nuts and their oxygen-free speaker cables. The
>placebo effect is as important as any actual reality.
Oxygen free guitar strings ha ... here comes my first million
There are several occasions where oxygen free singers would be a bonus
>
>Besides which, I'm talking about JB Weld, not plain epoxy. Now that
>you can start to hear.
>
"JB Weld rocks" shock horror
--
geoff
Steve Walker
> Can anyone tell me if Araldite would be as strong as wood glue for the
> following application? It's a guitar restoration job; I need to glue a
> rosewood bridge onto the spruce top of an acoustic guitar. Why am I
> thinking of using Araldite, instead of wood glue?... It's a
> restoration job, and the old bridge is somewhat distorted, whereas the
> top of the guitar is dead flat. If I use araldite, the glue will fill
> out the spaces betwen the warped bridge and the flat surface, whereas
> wood glue won't. Wood glue shrinks as it dries out and therefor won't
> fill out those spaces. The resulting joint needs to be as strong as
> possible.
foaming PU wood adhesive?
Rob Griffiths
Jerry Built <jerry...@ziplip.com> wrote:
> JimT wrote:
> > Can anyone tell me if Araldite would be as strong as wood glue
> > for the following application? It's a guitar restoration job;
> > I need to glue a rosewood bridge onto the spruce top of an
> > acoustic guitar. Why am I thinking of using Araldite, instead
> > of wood glue?... It's a restoration job, and the old bridge
> > is somewhat distorted, whereas the top of the guitar is dead
> > flat. If I use araldite, the glue will fill out the spaces
> > betwen the warped bridge and the flat surface, whereas wood
> > glue won't. Wood glue shrinks as it dries out and therefor
> > won't fill out those spaces. The resulting joint needs to be
> > as strong as possible.
>
The words Araldite and restoration shouldn't appear in the same
sentence. I hope Jim is doing this on is own guitar rather than
'restoring' someboby else's!
If the top of the guitar is fine and the bridge is distorted - make a
new bridge (or buy one) - and glue it with a traditional hot hide glue
(made out of animals). Then if the new bridge ever needs replacing it
can be steamed off the top of the guitar. Use Araldite and if you get it
wrong the guitar is buggered forever ...
Anyway sticking a distorted bridge on a guitar will cause all kinds of
tuning problems - it won't sound too good!
Rob