Vacuum for Chimney Sweeping

[Andrew]

I am considering purchasing equipment to sweep my (lined) chimney. In
the past professional sweeps have failed to impress - eg. they have
struggled remove the firebricks/baffle plate from my clearview stove -
and then failed to correctly reassemble them afterwards.

Obtaining brushes and rods seems straightforward, but a vacuum to ensure
the mess is contained seems to be more difficult. Websites selling
such equipment say that a HEPA filter is necessary as "soot is now a
carcinogen" - but without quantifying the risk. Such vacuums start at
£350 new, but less secondhand. Another thought is to use a non HEPA
vacuum outside with a long hose through a window, but there are reports
of soot clogging up non specialist equipment. Concerns about the
dangers from very occasional exposure to soot may be exagerated - after
all one could say the same about petrol fumes, yet we all fill our cars up.

Any thoughts from anyone who does DIY chimney sweeping? My main
motivation is to ensure a good job is done regularly rather than saving
costs, but I am also mindfull that I will soon have a second stove in
use which helps to justify capital expenditure.

Andrew

[Syd Rumpo]

SWMBO purchased HEPA filters for our Henry. I expect they were a bit
more expensive than the normal ones.

Cheers
--
Syd

[Harry Bloomfield]

Andrew formulated the question :

>
> Any thoughts from anyone who does DIY chimney sweeping? My main motivation
> is to ensure a good job is done regularly rather than saving costs, but I am
> also mindfull that I will soon have a second stove in use which helps to
> justify capital expenditure.

I would organise one of those of those in-line vortex filter tanks,
which was mentioned a few days ago, fitted in the vacuum hose. Its a
simple DIY job, then place the vac itself outdoors.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

[Dave Liquorice]

On Sat, 03 Jan 2015 13:50:24 +0000, Andrew wrote:

> Obtaining brushes and rods seems straightforward,

I've half toyed with getting a set but the flue will require the
really flexable rods which seem rather harder to obtain. Also the
sweep doesn't use a brush but a thing with balls on the end of
springy rods. Have you come across a source of these?

> Websites selling such equipment say that a HEPA filter is necessary as
> "soot is now a carcinogen" - but without quantifying the risk.

It's a carcinogen ergo bad ergo you don't need to quantify
anything...

> Another thought is to use a non HEPA vacuum outside with a long hose
> through a window,

I have a Earlex wet 'n dry that I use for the final cleaning of the
grate and bottom of the flues T at the back of the rear exit stove.
TBH there isn't a lot of soft dry powdery soot from our stove, its
mostly a light shiny crispy solid.

If I had the rods/bobbly thing I also get the long exhaust hose for
the Earlex and poke it out the window, but that's more to stop
airborne soot getting into the house and upsetting the management.
B-)

One can also place a cyclone before the vacuum to trap a lot of the
muck before it reaches there. Maybe one of the commercial "Ash Cans"?

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Andrew]

Dave Liquorice wrote:

> I've half toyed with getting a set but the flue will require the
> really flexable rods which seem rather harder to obtain. Also the
> sweep doesn't use a brush but a thing with balls on the end of
> springy rods. Have you come across a source of these?
>

Are you refering to this?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6-x-1m-Flu-Flex-rods-flexible-chimney-rods-for-liners-with-free-brush-/111562427616

I have only seen a sweep using something similar to this - but it may be
that your sweep is more knowledgeable and better equipped. Problem is
finding a good sweep - there seem to be 4 different professional
organisations some of which accept new members with a couple of days
training.

[Tim+]

I would question whether you need a vacuum cleaner at all.

I tape up my fireplace and the sweep my chimney from the top so that the
soot falls into the sealed hearth.

Much less messy but it does depend on your roof access.

Tim

[Tim+]

"Dave Liquorice" <allsortsn...@howhill.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 03 Jan 2015 13:50:24 +0000, Andrew wrote:
>
>> Obtaining brushes and rods seems straightforward,
>
> I've half toyed with getting a set but the flue will require the
> really flexable rods which seem rather harder to obtain. Also the
> sweep doesn't use a brush but a thing with balls on the end of
> springy rods. Have you come across a source of these?
>
>> Websites selling such equipment say that a HEPA filter is necessary as
>> "soot is now a carcinogen" - but without quantifying the risk.
>
> It's a carcinogen ergo bad ergo you don't need to quantify
> anything...

You mean as dangerous as a burger??

If you don't know an answer adding totally useless and incorrect info helps
no one.

Many many things are carcinogenic but some we need to worry about a lot
more than others.

Tim

[harryagain]

"Andrew" <And...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:6pOdneEDFowJbjrJ...@brightview.co.uk...

I clean my own chimney. SS double wall insulated, rigid sections
The answer (if practicable) is to do it from the top down. (Door shut on
stove)
Most of my soot (wood burner) is in the top 300mm of the chimney, ie where
the hot gases meet the cold air and condense out.
Mostly I don't need the brushes. I take the top section off the chmney
(insulated stainless steel) and five minutes scraping does the job. (Sat on
roof)

I have brush & rods, put them in from the top if needed. No muck indoors,
stove is closed up. Shine torch down to check it's clear or not.
Mostly they aren't needed, I have a good blaze once a week, this burns off
all the tar and soot before it has chance to accumulate.
The main reason for chimney sweping is to avoid chimney fires.

[Tim Lamb]

In message
<454264283441994320.623503...@news.eternal-septembe
r.org>, Tim+ <timdow...@yahoo.co.uk> writes

>> Any thoughts from anyone who does DIY chimney sweeping? My main
>> motivation is to ensure a good job is done regularly rather than saving
>> costs, but I am also mindfull that I will soon have a second stove in use
>> which helps to justify capital expenditure.
>>
>> Andrew
>
>I would question whether you need a vacuum cleaner at all.
>
>I tape up my fireplace and the sweep my chimney from the top so that the
>soot falls into the sealed hearth.
>
>Much less messy but it does depend on your roof access.

My planned method for my Clearview. Tuits not arrived as yet:-)

Question for the OP, how much soot did the *sweep* find and after how
much use?

--
Tim Lamb

[Andrew Gabriel]

In article <6pOdneEDFowJbjrJ...@brightview.co.uk>,

Soot is pathologically the worse thing to try and filter.
Bagged cleaners can't trap soot because it's so fine and sticky.
If it doesn't pass straight through, it instantly clogs the bag.
If you want to try using a bagged cleaner, don't emply the bag,
but use the household dust already in the bag as a pre-filter for
the soot, which will enable the bag (and dust) to trap more soot
for longer. Soot can so completely clog a bag that a bag might
burst, rapidly dumping loads of soot into the cleaner's exhaust
stream and making one hell of a mess.

Dysons will filter soot down to 50 micros, which may be good enough
for soot in a chimney where a proportion of it will have clumped.
(50 micros the smallest particle size exhaled by smokers because lungs
filter out everything smaller, and it also accounts for most of the
smoke from a smoldering fag in an ash tray.)

So the two important things:

i Soot will stick to every internal part of the cleaner, and may well
leave it smelling of coal tar in the case of soot from a chimney.

ii Use a vacuum cleaner which can exhaust the air outdoors, either by
having the ability to attach an outlet hose and dangle the end outdoors,
or by positioning the vacuum cleaner outdoors and using a long enough
hose to run it inside to the fireplace.

As someone else said, blocking up the bottom and then scooping out
the soot might be cleaner than trying to use a vacuum cleaner.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

[spuorg...@gowanhill.com]

On Saturday, 3 January 2015 13:50:15 UTC, Andrew wrote:
> Obtaining brushes and rods seems straightforward, but a vacuum to ensure
> the mess is contained seems to be more difficult.

There are some useful links for dust extraction equipment at
http://nacs.org.uk/associate-members/

including

http://www.camvac.co.uk/
http://www.sturdyvac.com/chimney_vacuums.html

Owain

[newshound]

On 03/01/2015 13:50, Andrew wrote:

ISTR that many chimney sweeps used to use Nilfisks

[Dave Liquorice]

On Sat, 3 Jan 2015 16:13:45 +0000 (UTC), Tim+ wrote:

>>> "soot is now a carcinogen" - but without quantifying the risk.
>>
>> It's a carcinogen ergo bad ergo you don't need to quantify
>> anything...
>
> You mean as dangerous as a burger??
>
> If you don't know an answer adding totally useless and incorrect info
> helps no one.
>
> Many many things are carcinogenic but some we need to worry about a lot
> more than others.

If you don't know an answer adding totally useless and incorrect info

helps no one.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Dave Liquorice]

On Sat, 03 Jan 2015 16:05:28 +0000, Andrew wrote:

>> I've half toyed with getting a set but the flue will require the
>> really flexable rods which seem rather harder to obtain. Also the
>> sweep doesn't use a brush but a thing with balls on the end of
>> springy rods. Have you come across a source of these?
>
> Are you refering to this?
>
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6-x-1m-Flu-Flex-rods-flexible-chimney-rods-
> for-liners-with-free-brush-/111562427616

The rods possibly, to get around the the T at the back of the stove
needs a really flexable rod, sort of thing you can tie into a knot.

The brush no, the sweep used a thing with lots of small (<1" dia)
balls on the end of springy arms, the overall dia being just a little
bit more than the flue dia. He also spun the lot with a battery drill
rather than just twisting by hand.

> Problem is finding a good sweep - there seem to be 4 different
> professional organisations some of which accept new members with a
> couple of days training.

The one we used had an impressive form he filled in it wasn't until I
read it properly later that I discovered most of it was
disclaimers...

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Andrew]

Tim+ wrote:

>
> I would question whether you need a vacuum cleaner at all.
>
> I tape up my fireplace and the sweep my chimney from the top so that the
> soot falls into the sealed hearth.
>
> Much less messy but it does depend on your roof access.
>
> Tim
>

Good point. Not possible at the moment due to an adjacent attached
garage with asbestos cement roof, but in due course I hope to replace
this with something which can take my weight.

[Andrew]

Sweeps comment on form was "Good quantity of soot. Recommend resweep in
12 months"

Woodburner is my principal source of space heating. Chimney is lined and
insulated - but it is an exposed stack on a bungalow. It also has a
couple of bends which someone thought was a good idea to improve the
draft in the 1960's... On the positive side I have taken care only to
burn well seasoned wood, or sawdust brickets, and try to avoid
slumbering the stove. Stove does not incorporate a boiler.

[Andrew]

Andrew Gabriel wrote:

> Soot is pathologically the worse thing to try and filter.
> Bagged cleaners can't trap soot because it's so fine and sticky.
> If it doesn't pass straight through, it instantly clogs the bag.
> If you want to try using a bagged cleaner, don't emply the bag,
> but use the household dust already in the bag as a pre-filter for
> the soot, which will enable the bag (and dust) to trap more soot
> for longer. Soot can so completely clog a bag that a bag might
> burst, rapidly dumping loads of soot into the cleaner's exhaust
> stream and making one hell of a mess.
>
> Dysons will filter soot down to 50 micros, which may be good enough
> for soot in a chimney where a proportion of it will have clumped.
> (50 micros the smallest particle size exhaled by smokers because lungs
> filter out everything smaller, and it also accounts for most of the
> smoke from a smoldering fag in an ash tray.)
>
> So the two important things:
>
> i Soot will stick to every internal part of the cleaner, and may well
> leave it smelling of coal tar in the case of soot from a chimney.
>
> ii Use a vacuum cleaner which can exhaust the air outdoors, either by
> having the ability to attach an outlet hose and dangle the end outdoors,
> or by positioning the vacuum cleaner outdoors and using a long enough
> hose to run it inside to the fireplace.
>
> As someone else said, blocking up the bottom and then scooping out
> the soot might be cleaner than trying to use a vacuum cleaner.
>

Very interesting comments Andrew. Clearly it is possible to purchase a
suitable vacuum (at a cost). Perhaps I should try a different sweep
this year, and consider DIY sweeping when replacement of the adjacent
asbestos cement garage roof allows me to access the top of the chimney.
(Chimney was originally lined and insulated using scaffolding which
spanned the roof, and had been erected for repointing the chimney)

[Bob Eager]

On Sat, 03 Jan 2015 22:05:45 +0000, Andrew wrote:

> Very interesting comments Andrew. Clearly it is possible to purchase a
> suitable vacuum (at a cost).

A Henry and some HEPAflo bags would be only just over £100.

--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £30a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

[Andrew Gabriel]

In article <m89cmh$s3j$1...@dont-email.me>,

and...@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew Gabriel) writes:
> Dysons will filter soot down to 50 micros, which may be good enough
> for soot in a chimney where a proportion of it will have clumped.
> (50 micros the smallest particle size exhaled by smokers because lungs
> filter out everything smaller, and it also accounts for most of the
> smoke from a smoldering fag in an ash tray.)

Should say *microns*, not micros.

[Andrew Gabriel]

In article <V9CdnfuYZsEx-jXJ...@brightview.co.uk>,

Andrew <And...@nospam.com> writes:
> Very interesting comments Andrew. Clearly it is possible to purchase a
> suitable vacuum (at a cost). Perhaps I should try a different sweep
> this year, and consider DIY sweeping when replacement of the adjacent
> asbestos cement garage roof allows me to access the top of the chimney.
> (Chimney was originally lined and insulated using scaffolding which
> spanned the roof, and had been erected for repointing the chimney)

I watched someone having their chimney swept some years ago.
The sweep used a giant industrial vacuum cleaner coupled up
to a board which (attempted to) seal around the fireplace.
You could see the soot being ejected from the vacuum's exhaust.

[Tim Lamb]

In message <F-ednaGpNr7G-zXJ...@brightview.co.uk>, Andrew
<And...@nospam.com> writes

>>>
>>> I tape up my fireplace and the sweep my chimney from the top so that the
>>> soot falls into the sealed hearth.
>>>
>>> Much less messy but it does depend on your roof access.
>>
>> My planned method for my Clearview. Tuits not arrived as yet:-)
>>
>> Question for the OP, how much soot did the *sweep* find and after how
>> much use?
>>
>
>Sweeps comment on form was "Good quantity of soot. Recommend resweep in
>12 months"
>
>Woodburner is my principal source of space heating. Chimney is lined
>and insulated - but it is an exposed stack on a bungalow. It also has
>a couple of bends which someone thought was a good idea to improve the
>draft in the 1960's... On the positive side I have taken care only to
>burn well seasoned wood, or sawdust brickets, and try to avoid
>slumbering the stove. Stove does not incorporate a boiler.

Hmm... mine is rather overdue:-(

7" flexible flue sleeved with rockwool sections. Internal stack and not
slumbered. Dry hardwood fuel.

I am nervous of removing the firebrick as the rear section now has a
couple of cracks.

--
Tim Lamb

[Andy Burns]

Dave Liquorice wrote:

> The brush no, the sweep used a thing with lots of small (<1" dia)
> balls on the end of springy arms, the overall dia being just a little
> bit more than the flue dia. He also spun the lot with a battery drill
> rather than just twisting by hand.

Image searches for "chimney brush" "sweeps brush" etc turn up nothing
looking like that, which suggests it's more of a gimmick than a
necessity ... the drill idea sounds good though.

[Dave Liquorice]

On Sun, 04 Jan 2015 11:59:08 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:

>> The brush no, the sweep used a thing with lots of small (<1" dia)
>> balls on the end of springy arms, the overall dia being just a
little
>> bit more than the flue dia. He also spun the lot with a battery
drill
>> rather than just twisting by hand.
>
> Image searches for "chimney brush" "sweeps brush" etc turn up nothing
> looking like that, which suggests it's more of a gimmick than a
> necessity ...

Yeah I can't find anything either even using "ball" or "balls". Only
various brushes, chains (eek! in a liner!), or variations on what
look like fairly thick/stiff curved/straight open filament "brushes".

This system has caught my
eye:

http://chimneyrodsdirect.co.uk/AC-Cyclone-Power-Sweep-Chimney-DIY-Kit-
Flexible-Flu-Flex-Chimney-AC-Cyclone.htm

Button joiners rather than screw so accientally reversing the
direction of drill/twisting doesn't unscrew a joint half way up the
flue...

The number of typos on the site doesn't inspire confidence. They are
on eBay (but more expensive) with the same mistakes but 100% +ve
feedback.

What it doesn't have is a sleeve to guide the rods near the drill for
you to hold. I guess a gloved hand will suffice or maybe just bit of
plastic tube that the rods and joiners will just pass through.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Andy Dingley]

On Saturday, 3 January 2015 19:59:58 UTC, newshound wrote:

> ISTR that many chimney sweeps used to use Nilfisks

Nilfisks are expensive, but always recognised to be long lasting when vacuuming filthy dust. They don't use the vacuum airflow for cooling, they blow clean air through the motor from outside.

[Andy Dingley]

On Saturday, 3 January 2015 13:50:15 UTC, Andrew wrote:

> Obtaining brushes and rods seems straightforward, but a vacuum to ensure
> the mess is contained seems to be more difficult.

I have a shedload of vacuums and I once made a sweep's blanket to keep dust under control. When it comes to sweeping my own chimneys though, I don't actually bother. Sweeping them (my three at least) just doesn't make that much dirt. I don't vacuum when I'm sweeping. I let it fall where it does, shovel it into a bucket as it falls and then use a normal workshop vacuum to clean up afterwards.

I'd suggest any workshop vacuum. The Aldi chimney vacuums are good, although with only small buckets. I have a couple of these in the workshop for router table dust cyclones. Earlex do a decent cheap workshop R2D2 vacuum too. Henry has too small a one-use bag to use for filthy stuff, his big hard-nut brother Ron (an NVQ250?) is better.

[spuorg...@gowanhill.com]

On Sunday, 4 January 2015 14:56:56 UTC, Andy Dingley wrote:
> Nilfisks are expensive, but always recognised to be long lasting
> when vacuuming filthy dust. They don't use the vacuum airflow
> for cooling, they blow clean air through the motor from outside.

I think my cheapy-from-screwfix karcher does too. Model WD 2.200

It disassembles with just a few screws so I brush out the motor annually anyway.

Owain

[damdu...@yahoo.co.uk]

On Sun, 04 Jan 2015 13:46:58 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
<allsortsn...@howhill.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 04 Jan 2015 11:59:08 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:
>
>>> The brush no, the sweep used a thing with lots of small (<1" dia)
>>> balls on the end of springy arms, the overall dia being just a
>little
>>> bit more than the flue dia. He also spun the lot with a battery
>drill
>>> rather than just twisting by hand.
>>
>> Image searches for "chimney brush" "sweeps brush" etc turn up nothing
>> looking like that, which suggests it's more of a gimmick than a
>> necessity ...
>
>Yeah I can't find anything either even using "ball" or "balls". Only
>various brushes, chains (eek! in a liner!), or variations on what
>look like fairly thick/stiff curved/straight open filament "brushes".

Sounds more like something used for Cleaning Boiler tubes, Was it
similar to
http://www.ibhs.co.uk/Boiler-Tube-Cleaning-Equipment/Boiler-Tube-Cleaning-Equipment---Goodway/Flare-Tools/Flexible-Arm-Flare-Cone-Tools/p-106-242-249-697/
I suppose a sweep might re purpose something similar to clean chimney
liners as often fitted to Woodburners that use older flues.
That firm will also supply commercial soot cleaning and vacuum systems
which are on their site but they may be more expensive than the
original OP would be prepared to spend.


G.Harman