shelving: spacing of rails?
Fred
So I am about to fit my shelving, the type with rails, as recommended
on this group:
http://www.transtools.co.uk/store/prod_1546/hardware-ironmongery/shelving/silverline-double-slot-shelving-system-1-6-metre-upright.html
I wonder is there a rule for how far apart the rails should be?
I was thinking on a stud wall it has to be where the studs are, so
would it be every 60cm? If the stud spacing was 40cm would you fit one
every 40cm or would that be too close; would you skip a stud and fit
every 80cm?
But as you may remember, I'm not fitting to a stud wall, so is there a
rule for solid walls? Or is there no rule of thumb; does it depend on
the load on the shelves? Do you fit more rails, more closely for heavy
loads?
TIA
The Natural Philosopher
If yiour subsrate s sioud, and yiou make a fiar job, the limiting facti
will noit be teh uprights pulling ou of the walls, it will be the bowing
of the shelves.
I put up some of this sort of thing in an alcove once, to take my
weighty LPs in the days when LPs were what one had. The shelves (12mm
melamine/chip) bowed alarmingly over half a meter span.
The brackets looked a bit sorry too, but the uprights never budged.
> TIA
Graeme
<fr...@no-email.here.invalid> writes
>
>But as you may remember, I'm not fitting to a stud wall, so is there a
>rule for solid walls? Or is there no rule of thumb; does it depend on
>the load on the shelves? Do you fit more rails, more closely for heavy
>loads?
What you need is the Sagulator, which calculates such things :
Tabby
> Hi,
>
> So I am about to fit my shelving, the type with rails, as recommended
>
> I wonder is there a rule for how far apart the rails should be?
>
> I was thinking on a stud wall it has to be where the studs are, so
> would it be every 60cm? If the stud spacing was 40cm would you fit one
> every 40cm or would that be too close; would you skip a stud and fit
> every 80cm?
>
> But as you may remember, I'm not fitting to a stud wall, so is there a
> rule for solid walls? Or is there no rule of thumb; does it depend on
> the load on the shelves? Do you fit more rails, more closely for heavy
> loads?
>
> TIA
You dont say what load youre looking at, nor what type and thickness
of shelf. Once you've figured those out, check out the sagulator.
I'm not a big fan of those slotted strips myself, they dont handle the
sort of loads I'd expect them to very well, like shelves packed with
books. So I'd be inclined to put them on the close side, like 2' apart
or maybe 18" for big books.
NT
The Medway Handyman
Oh contraire Rodney. I am a big fan of them :-)
You can get more fixings in the wall, in line, using slotted strips and they
spread the load.
--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
jgharston
JGH
Tabby
Yes, the weakpoint is the little tabs that hold the horizontal
brackets in.
NT
John Rumm
> Hi,
>
> So I am about to fit my shelving, the type with rails, as recommended
> on this group:
> http://www.transtools.co.uk/store/prod_1546/hardware-ironmongery/shelving/silverline-double-slot-shelving-system-1-6-metre-upright.html
>
> I wonder is there a rule for how far apart the rails should be?
Not sure about "rules" although there are some rules of thumb. If doing
the classical straight shelf with two supports, then they work best
about 20 - 25% of the way in from each side. That way roughly half the
shelf is over each bracket (with a slight bias toward wider spacing)
> But as you may remember, I'm not fitting to a stud wall, so is there a
> rule for solid walls? Or is there no rule of thumb; does it depend on
> the load on the shelves? Do you fit more rails, more closely for heavy
> loads?
You need to consider the total load, its distribution, the shelf
material, depth, and thickness.
If you forget 12mm thick shelving for anything other than lightweight
stuff (unless braced with front and rear rails). 19mm chipboard is
probably a realistic minimum for a decent shelf. MDF is ok, but tends to
sag a bit more.
Worst case would be heavy loads like reference books on say a 10" deep
shelf. You would probably need to go at 400mm centres to eliminate sag
there.
If the shelves are deeper, you can go to wider spacing. Same for thicker.
For my workshop I used 19mm MDF, and made the shelves 500mm deep, about
1.2m long with a return section 400mm wide against the far wall (they
are L shaped shelves that sit in a corner and wrap round it). I got two
shelves out of each sheet of 8x4' MDF. I used two uprights on the long
side and one on the short side, with deep brackets. The main shelf seems
pretty sturdy, while the return gets a bit of sag at the extreme end -
so perhaps a pair of uprights on that side would have been preferable.
--
Cheers,
John.
/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/
John Rumm
If you buy Spur (or similar clones these days) then I would refrain from
referring to it as weak - it may be the weakest part of the arrangement,
but its certainly more than adequate in my experience. (although I would
agree that some of the lightweight ali, or single strip steep stuff has
its limitations)
The Medway Handyman
I was thinking of the double slot type. I agree, the single slot is
rubbish.
Lobster
> Fred wrote:
>> So I am about to fit my shelving, the type with rails, as recommended
>> on this group:
>> http://www.transtools.co.uk/store/prod_1546/hardware-ironmongery/shelving/silverline-double-slot-shelving-system-1-6-metre-upright.html
>>
>> I wonder is there a rule for how far apart the rails should be?
>>
>> I was thinking on a stud wall it has to be where the studs are, so
>> would it be every 60cm? If the stud spacing was 40cm would you fit one
>> every 40cm or would that be too close; would you skip a stud and fit
>> every 80cm?
>>
>> But as you may remember, I'm not fitting to a stud wall, so is there a
>> rule for solid walls? Or is there no rule of thumb; does it depend on
>> the load on the shelves? Do you fit more rails, more closely for heavy
>> loads?
>
> If yiour subsrate s sioud, and yiou make a fiar job, the limiting facti
> will noit be teh uprights
Fair point, but on the other hand, pqwoorec qksb ienvp poirnviq iewb
lirstv irvrjmw, ecvaoc.
YMMV
David
John Rumm
I have actually stood on a spur bracket plugged into a fixed upright
once. It survived, and that is more stress that it is reasonable to
expect it to cope with! ;-)
Spamlet
"Fred" <fr...@no-email.here.invalid> wrote in message
news:i24u96ldlhvkjkf1g...@4ax.com...
If the ends of the shelves are free, and there are two rails, I put the
brackets a quarter of the board length from the ends so they take equal
shares of the weight. Your actual spacing depends on how thick your boards
are; how flexible; how heavy the stuff you are putting on them, etc.
S
Spamlet
"Fred" <fr...@no-email.here.invalid> wrote in message
news:i24u96ldlhvkjkf1g...@4ax.com...
If the ends of the shelves are free, and there are two rails, I put the
Fred
<j...@arcade.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Three uprights per 4ft shelf - 6" from each end and one in the middle.
So 18" apart or 45cm. Thanks.
Fred
<see.my.s...@nowhere.null> wrote:
>If you forget 12mm thick shelving for anything other than lightweight
>stuff (unless braced with front and rear rails).
12mm of what? Would plywood be any better than chi[pbopard or MDF?
>19mm chipboard is probably a realistic minimum for a decent shelf. MDF is ok, but tends to
>sag a bit more.
I have some melamine faced chipboard from the shelves that were
already there but can't remember what thickness they are. I will need
to buy more shelves though, so I am open to suggestions about the best
type of wood to use. I suppose the melamine faced products save the
time and trouble of painting them but I suppose that comes at a price?
They are for my garage so do not have to be particularly pretty but I
think bare mdf or chipboard would benefit from a coat of something so
that they don't get ruined if I spill something!
Thanks.
Fred
<t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>I put up some of this sort of thing in an alcove once, to take my
>weighty LPs in the days when LPs were what one had. The shelves (12mm
>melamine/chip) bowed alarmingly over half a meter span.
Sorry, I should have said: these are to go in my garage. I think the
LP example is a good one: one LP doesn't weigh very much but when you
have a collection they weigh a tonne. Individually I don't think any
of my tools is that heavy but together, I am sure they will present a
decent weight.
Fred
wrote:
>You dont say what load youre looking at, nor what type and thickness
>of shelf. Once you've figured those out, check out the sagulator.
So it seems that any rules of thumb are more to do with preventing
bowing rather than the rails falling off the wall.
I will download the sagulator.
Thanks.
Fred
<davi...@no-spam-blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
>I was thinking of the double slot type. I agree, the single slot is
>rubbish.
I was thinking of using the double slotted type with brackets that
protrude the depth of the shelf, like these:
Not quite sure what the other ones are that people are talking about:
are they the ones where each corner of the shelf is held on by a tiny
"tab" of metal? No, they don't sound very secure to me either.
Thanks.
The Natural Philosopher
> On Sun, 26 Sep 2010 17:11:17 +0100, John Rumm
> <see.my.s...@nowhere.null> wrote:
>
>> If you forget 12mm thick shelving for anything other than lightweight
>> stuff (unless braced with front and rear rails).
>
> 12mm of what? Would plywood be any better than chi[pbopard or MDF?
>
Oddly chip is probably beter than anything, or MDF.
>> 19mm chipboard is probably a realistic minimum for a decent shelf. MDF is ok, but tends to
>> sag a bit more.
>
> I have some melamine faced chipboard from the shelves that were
> already there but can't remember what thickness they are. I will need
> to buy more shelves though, so I am open to suggestions about the best
> type of wood to use. I suppose the melamine faced products save the
> time and trouble of painting them but I suppose that comes at a price?
> They are for my garage so do not have to be particularly pretty but I
> think bare mdf or chipboard would benefit from a coat of something so
> that they don't get ruined if I spill something!
>
Bare chip and to heck with the spills. As long as they are not water.
> Thanks.
The Natural Philosopher
19mm chip mealamine or not as cost allows. Or 19mm block.
15mm is acceptable: 12mm is not.
The Natural Philosopher
> On Sun, 26 Sep 2010 03:23:29 -0700 (PDT), Tabby <meow...@care2.com>
> wrote:
>
>> You dont say what load youre looking at, nor what type and thickness
>> of shelf. Once you've figured those out, check out the sagulator.
>
> So it seems that any rules of thumb are more to do with preventing
> bowing rather than the rails falling off the wall.
>
brackets will stand standing on (just) though not without bending.
Single screw in masonry will take all your weight.
> I will download the sagulator.
>
:-)
> Thanks.
Grimly Curmudgeon
drugs began to take hold. I remember Fred <fr...@no-email.here.invalid>
saying something like:
>
>12mm of what? Would plywood be any better than chi[pbopard or MDF?
My most recent heavy-duty shelving was made of ripped lengthways 19mm
shuttering ply. Looks absolutely fine in a workshop.
Fred
<t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>Oddly chip is probably beter than anything
Really, why is that? I haven't had a play with all the variables in
the sagulator; does chip flex the least or is there another advantage
I haven't thought of?
The sagulator gives a deflection of so many inches per foot but what
figure should I be aiming for?
Is this tool just for shelves or is this the application I have heard
people talking about on here for joists and floorboards etc?
Thanks.
Fred
<t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>Single screw in masonry will take all your weight.
Crickey. I hadn't realised a little screw could be so strong. So only
one is needed to hold the weight and the rest are just over
engineering? Thanks.
Fred
<t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> Or 19mm block.
Sorry to be so thick. By block do you mean blockboard?
Thanks.
John Rumm
> On Sun, 26 Sep 2010 17:11:17 +0100, John Rumm
> <see.my.s...@nowhere.null> wrote:
>
>> If you forget 12mm thick shelving for anything other than lightweight
>> stuff (unless braced with front and rear rails).
>
> 12mm of what? Would plywood be any better than chi[pbopard or MDF?
12mm contiboard for example...
Yup ply is quite good, although a bit more expensive. Shuttering ply can
be quite cheap, but the finish is not as nice and its not quite as
strong as the better grades.
John Rumm
> On Mon, 27 Sep 2010 12:01:31 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
> <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Oddly chip is probably beter than anything
>
> Really, why is that? I haven't had a play with all the variables in
> the sagulator; does chip flex the least or is there another advantage
> I haven't thought of?
Chip does not flex too much, and is cheap. In fact, flooring grade chip
would probably make nice cheap workshop shelves since its usually sold
in 8x2' sizes, and is 19mm or 22mm thick. Usually under £7/sheet.
> The sagulator gives a deflection of so many inches per foot but what
> figure should I be aiming for?
Depends on what is aesthetically acceptable, and also how much load you
are planning on storing.
> Is this tool just for shelves or is this the application I have heard
> people talking about on here for joists and floorboards etc?
I am not even convinced it gives accurate answers for shelves - it
certainly gives radically different answers to Superbeam on joist sized
timbers.
John Rumm
It depends on how you load the screw. Its strongest in shear - i.e. a
lateral force applied tight against the wall. Its fairly strong but not
as good in bending, and its weakest in traction (i.e. the screw itself
is very string, but it can be pulled out of the wall - where the type of
masonry and plug fit etc will play a big part in how easily).
So a shelving upright with a bracket protruding will place most of the
load on the screws in shear, and some on the screws above the bracket
point in traction, and also the upright under a bending moment - with
the lower section being restrained by the wall. The longer the upright,
the more leverage it has to control the forces - longer uprights will
take bigger loads the short ones.
Andy Champ
>
> Chip does not flex too much, and is cheap. In fact, flooring grade chip
> would probably make nice cheap workshop shelves since its usually sold
> in 8x2' sizes, and is 19mm or 22mm thick. Usually under £7/sheet.
>
Chip tends to sag if left under load for along time. Arrange it so you
can turn the shelves over!
Andy
The Natural Philosopher
I did. Sorry.
> Thanks.
The Natural Philosopher
Well that's as long as it is firmly into a good wall.
Never climbed using pitons? One 1/4" shaft hammered onto a crevice.
people trust their lives to them.
http://i489.photobucket.com/albums/rr254/climber76/Non-Piton.jpg
The Natural Philosopher
> On 27/09/2010 18:48, Fred wrote:
>> On Mon, 27 Sep 2010 12:03:53 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
>> <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> Single screw in masonry will take all your weight.
>>
>> Crickey. I hadn't realised a little screw could be so strong. So only
>> one is needed to hold the weight and the rest are just over
>> engineering? Thanks.
>
> It depends on how you load the screw. Its strongest in shear - i.e. a
> lateral force applied tight against the wall. Its fairly strong but not
> as good in bending, and its weakest in traction (i.e. the screw itself
> is very string, but it can be pulled out of the wall - where the type of
> masonry and plug fit etc will play a big part in how easily).
>
> So a shelving upright with a bracket protruding will place most of the
> load on the screws in shear, and some on the screws above the bracket
> point in traction, and also the upright under a bending moment - with
> the lower section being restrained by the wall. The longer the upright,
> the more leverage it has to control the forces - longer uprights will
> take bigger loads the short ones.
>
>
actually. But the connection to the wall is not.;-)
John Rumm
Ain't that what I said?: "the screw itself is very string, but it can be
pulled out of the wall" (if one ignores the typo ;-)
The point of relevance is not really the actual strength of the screw
itself, but its performance in the application that counts.
chris French
Rumm <see.my.s...@nowhere.null> writes
>On 26/09/2010 10:24, Fred wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> So I am about to fit my shelving, the type with rails, as recommended
>> on this group:
>>
>>http://www.transtools.co.uk/store/prod_1546/hardware-ironmongery/shelvi
>>ng/silverline-double-slot-shelving-system-1-6-metre-upright.html
>>
>material, depth, and thickness.
>
>If you forget 12mm thick shelving for anything other than lightweight
>to sag a bit more.
>
>shelf. You would probably need to go at 400mm centres to eliminate sag
>there.
>
>If the shelves are deeper, you can go to wider spacing. Same for thicker.
>
>For my workshop I used 19mm MDF, and made the shelves 500mm deep, about
>1.2m long with a return section 400mm wide against the far wall (they
>are L shaped shelves that sit in a corner and wrap round it). I got two
>shelves out of each sheet of 8x4' MDF. I used two uprights on the long
>side and one on the short side, with deep brackets. The main shelf
>seems pretty sturdy, while the return gets a bit of sag at the extreme
>end - so perhaps a pair of uprights on that side would have been preferable.
>
>
I know it depends on the material, but for a decent thickness shelf I
reckon about a 60cm or so spacing for shelves that are expected to take
a reasonable, but not extremely heavy load is what I go for.
I've just checked the shelves in the pantry. I put up a 19mm MDF shelf
(probably about 18 inches deep) supported on London brackets at about
68cm centres. It has a pretty heavy load stacks of tins, jars, bulk
bags or rice etc. No sagging so far. This is probably about what you
shelves above are at by the sound of it.
The shelves on our Ikea Billy bookcases are about 76cm long and seem to
be holding up well.
--
Chris French
Fred
<t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> Sorry to be so thick. By block do you mean blockboard?
>>
>
>I did.
Blockboard sounds like it might be a good, strong choice. Would it be
better than the alternatives?
When I was young and naive, I used to buy the contiboard "strips" but
I think these now cost about £8 for 8' x 9" so it is probably an
expensive way of doing things.
I think it would be cheaper to buy one big board and rip it into
shelves. Or since the boards are so bulky to move, get the timber
merchant to cut them for me.
If I ripped a melamine faced sheet that would leave bare edges but if
I really wanted a pretty edge, I suppose I could buy the iron-on
edging strips. Appearance might not matter in the garage but would if
the shelves were elsewhere.
The melamine face does make the shelf prettier but IIRC there is still
a warning on the label that it doesn't like water.
Thanks.
John Rumm
You can also get so called "furniture board" - i.e. veneered chip. If
you varnish that with something waterproof it can look good and resist
water.
Fred
<see.my.s...@nowhere.null> wrote:
>You can also get so called "furniture board" - i.e. veneered chip. If
>you varnish that with something waterproof it can look good and resist
>water.
Sorry that is what I was talking about; I thought melamine faced
chipboard was contiboard/furniture board. have I got that wrong? Are
they two different things? I quite like the idea of using blockboard,
perhaps just for novelty value - I haven't used it for anything else,
but it is twice the price of naked chipboard.
John Rumm
> On Tue, 28 Sep 2010 14:04:31 +0100, John Rumm
> <see.my.s...@nowhere.null> wrote:
>
>> You can also get so called "furniture board" - i.e. veneered chip. If
>> you varnish that with something waterproof it can look good and resist
>> water.
>
> Sorry that is what I was talking about; I thought melamine faced
> chipboard was contiboard/furniture board. have I got that wrong? Are
Contiboard (i.e. the brand) make both. The melamine faced stuff is
usually smooth and either single colour, or a wood effect slightly
textured finish.
The furniture board is coated with a real wood veneer rather than a
melamine type coating, and it will take varnish and stain like real
wood. The only thing you can't do it route the edges!
> they two different things? I quite like the idea of using blockboard,
> perhaps just for novelty value - I haven't used it for anything else,
> but it is twice the price of naked chipboard.
Not see blockboard about for ages! (if by that you mean a couple of
laminations of ply with wood strips/block sandwiched between).
The Natural Philosopher
>
>
> The furniture board is coated with a real wood veneer rather than a
> melamine type coating, and it will take varnish and stain like real
> wood. The only thing you can't do it route the edges!
>
Routres "Route", Routers "Rout"..;-)
John Rumm
^^^^^^^
Or routers even, and I have never taken a router into battle, so can't
comment on the second ;-)
The Natural Philosopher
> On 29/09/2010 11:48, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> John Rumm wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> The furniture board is coated with a real wood veneer rather than a
>>> melamine type coating, and it will take varnish and stain like real
>>> wood. The only thing you can't do it route the edges!
>>>
>> Rout, John, rout.
>>
>> Routres "Route", Routers "Rout"..;-)
>
> ^^^^^^^
> Or routers even, and I have never taken a router into battle, so can't
> comment on the second ;-)
>
rout 2 (rout)
v. rout·ed, rout·ing, routs
v.intr.
1. To dig with the snout; root.
2. To poke around; rummage.
v.tr.
1. To expose to view as if by digging; uncover.
*2. To hollow, scoop, or gouge out.*
3. To drive or force out as if by digging; eject: rout out an informant.
4. Archaic To dig up with the snout.
that's where the woodworking term comes from. Not from route!
It is in fact from root, as in dig up by the roots etc etc.
Spamlet
"Spamlet" <spam.m...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:i7oak1$urn$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
> "Fred" <fr...@no-email.here.invalid> wrote in message
> news:i24u96ldlhvkjkf1g...@4ax.com...
>> Hi,
>>
>> So I am about to fit my shelving, the type with rails, as recommended
>> on this group:
>> http://www.transtools.co.uk/store/prod_1546/hardware-ironmongery/shelving/silverline-double-slot-shelving-system-1-6-metre-upright.html
>>
>>
>> I was thinking on a stud wall it has to be where the studs are, so
>> would it be every 60cm? If the stud spacing was 40cm would you fit one
>> every 40cm or would that be too close; would you skip a stud and fit
>> every 80cm?
>>
>> But as you may remember, I'm not fitting to a stud wall, so is there a
>> rule for solid walls? Or is there no rule of thumb; does it depend on
>> the load on the shelves? Do you fit more rails, more closely for heavy
>> loads?
>>
>> TIA
>
> If the ends of the shelves are free, and there are two rails, I put the
> brackets a quarter of the board length from the ends so they take equal
> shares of the weight. Your actual spacing depends on how thick your
> boards are; how flexible; how heavy the stuff you are putting on them,
> etc.
>
> S
(Sorry for the double posts: some glitch between send and server.)
Surprised at all the talk of chipboard types, and no talk of proper wood,
which, with a decent grain, is less sag prone and looks better too. You
don't see many chipboard scaffolding planks do you?
S
Fred
<see.my.s...@nowhere.null> wrote:
>The furniture board is coated with a real wood veneer rather than a
>melamine type coating, and it will take varnish and stain like real
>wood. The only thing you can't do it route the edges!
Thanks I never knew that. I thought it was a generic name for
contiboard. I hadn't realised the two were different.
>Not see blockboard about for ages! (if by that you mean a couple of
>laminations of ply with wood strips/block sandwiched between).
My local timber merchant does sell it (which is strange because he
only sells pine, pine, and pine). Spamlet posted about using real wood
along the grain. I wonder whether strips of wood in blockboard would
have the same effect?
John Rumm
Its probably not bad - comparable to solid (soft) wood of a similar size.
Fred
<see.my.s...@nowhere.null> wrote:
Just a quick post to say these have arrived. The packaging was a bit
minimal: brackets loose in a city link bag but they seem to have
arrived safely none the less. I had feared they would have been
scratched and dented in transit. the rails were wrapped in bubble wrap
but the ends had poked through so one or two were a bit scuffed on the
end.
One slight criticism of the product is that on the more expensive
rails available elsewhere (e.g. B&Q) the screw hole is countersunk so
that you can fit the screw flush with the rail. On these silver line
rails the screw stands proud of the rail so it means you cannot put a
bracket directly over the screw. OTOH the B&Q rails are three times
the price so it is probably worth the inconvenience. Or has anyone
here found a clever way around this; perhaps I am doing something
wrong? It wouldn't be the first time ;)
TIA
John Rumm
On mine the hole is quite large, so I found if you use a 10 gauge
countersunk screw, then they sit flush enough to get a bracket over
anyway. (this assumes the design is not different from when I last
ordered a couple of years back).
Weatherlawyer
You want something like an inch thickness of an unsupported board for
every 3 feet span. Get around the cost of rails by adding
strengtheners to the front and back of the board. (Glue and nail 2 x 1
along the front and back edge, for example.)
The number of rails needed to spread the load on the wall is another
point altogether. A "patress" might be used. In plasterboard walls the
contructor will be told to add ply between the studwork for hanging
radiators and etc.
You can strengthen a wall with the same idea. Most prefab garages are
built to a cheapo speck and are likely to require reinforcing for a
lot of heavy weigth.
It all depends what you want to put on it and how much you don't want
to support the outer edges of the shelves with props.
Geo
>One slight criticism of the product is that on the more expensive
>rails available elsewhere (e.g. B&Q) the screw hole is countersunk so
>that you can fit the screw flush with the rail. On these silver line
>rails the screw stands proud of the rail so it means you cannot put a
>bracket directly over the screw. OTOH the B&Q rails are three times
>the price so it is probably worth the inconvenience. Or has anyone
>here found a clever way around this; perhaps I am doing something
>wrong? It wouldn't be the first time ;)
Use a countersinking drill?
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Geo