Electronic water softeners e.g. Vulcan 3000 - how effective?

[Eusebius]

I have moderately hard water and it would be good to use a water softener. I like the idea of an electronic one that doesn't add chemicals. It descales the pipes and taps as I understand.

Vulcan 3000 has been recommended to me by my bathroom showroom. It's around £600 and there are cheaper alternatives.

So - how effective is an electronic descaler? Anyone have experiences and views?

[Martin Brown]

Just the same as most other sorts of overpriced "chemical free" snake
oil sold mainly to separate the worried well from their money.

http://www.waterionizer.org/products/hard-water-treatment/vulcan-3000-descaler.html

(not a recommendation)

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[GB]

If you want soft water, you'll need a proper deioniser. And resign
yourself to shovelling mountains of salt.

[David]

By electronic do you mean the ones which wrap a coil of wire around the
mains input and "align the electrons" in the incoming water to prevent
scale forming?

If you believe in these I have some very good nearly new Russ Andrews
interconnects for a very reasonable price. Oh, and also a bridge in London
and a tower in Paris for sale. ;-)

Personal experience? I removed one (probably not a £600 one) from the
incoming mains water here and it was all furred up inside the pipe.

We have a salt based system and the difference between this and the
electrical system is pronounced. That is, salt works and the electric
version doesn't.

Vulcan 3000 looks much the same - wrapped around the incoming pipe and
using magic/advance science. Not sure if it leaves traces of bullshit in
the water.

Think I recycled the old one; will check the shed.

Cheers


Dave R


--
AMD FX-6300 Windows 7 Pro x64

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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[Eusebius]

> Personal experience? I removed one (probably not a £600 one) from the
> incoming mains water here and it was all furred up inside the pipe.
>
> We have a salt based system and the difference between this and the
> electrical system is pronounced. That is, salt works and the electric
> version doesn't.
>
> Vulcan 3000 looks much the same - wrapped around the incoming pipe and

> using magic/advance science. > Cheers > Dave R

So no takers..... I know Russ Andrews products and point well taken.

But tell me more about "furred up inside pipe"....?

[Davey]

Or use block salt, much easier to handle. Yes, it's a little more
expensive, but worth it, in my opinion, due to the location of the
softener.

--
Davey.

[charles]

In article <31b1b329-8cdb-4bb7...@googlegroups.com>,

"furrer up" means that there are deposits clinging to then pipe walls. In
this house, I removed a straight piece of pipe which had been in place for
60 years and I couldn't see through it. Just look inside your kettle.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

[Eusebius]

> > But tell me more about "furred up inside pipe"....?
>
> "furrer up" means that there are deposits clinging to then pipe walls. In
> this house, I removed a straight piece of pipe which had been in place for
> 60 years and I couldn't see through it. Just look inside your kettle.
>
> --
> from KT24 in Surrey, England

So this furring up was exactly where the wires were wrapped around the pipe to fit the descaler?

[Martin Brown]

On 30/11/2016 12:27, charles wrote:
> In article <31b1b329-8cdb-4bb7...@googlegroups.com>,
> Eusebius <performan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Personal experience? I removed one (probably not a £600 one) from the
>>> incoming mains water here and it was all furred up inside the pipe.
>>>
>>> We have a salt based system and the difference between this and the
>>> electrical system is pronounced. That is, salt works and the electric
>>> version doesn't.
>>>
>>> Vulcan 3000 looks much the same - wrapped around the incoming pipe and
>>> using magic/advance science. > Cheers > Dave R
>
>> So no takers..... I know Russ Andrews products and point well taken.

Basically the thing works entirely by convincing people who are afraid
of "chemicals" to part with lots of their hard earned cash. You can't
blame salesman for flogging them - the bonus per sale must be enormous!

>
>> But tell me more about "furred up inside pipe"....?
>
> "furrer up" means that there are deposits clinging to then pipe walls. In
> this house, I removed a straight piece of pipe which had been in place for
> 60 years and I couldn't see through it. Just look inside your kettle.

That is a bit surprising unless you live in an incredibly hard water
area or one with particulate clay in the supplied water. Mostly a small
amount of stuff plates out very slowly over time - except where the
water is being heated and then decomposition of the soluble bicarbonate
to insoluble carbonate plates out lime mostly on the heating element or
the heat exchanger until bits get thick enough to flake off.

Kettle elements being the obvious place where you see it in action.

It was the protective effect of hard water that made lead pipes pretty
much inert after a few years. The inside surface coated with lime.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[MrCheerful]

On 30/11/2016 11:21, Eusebius wrote:

Get a real softener, they last many years and give effective results.

[MrCheerful]

On 30/11/2016 14:05, Huge wrote:

> Precisely.
>
> And it's perfectly safe to drink softened water.
>

We chose not to drink softened water, but instead run a reverse osmosis
filter system for drinking water, straight off the hard water supply, we
like it and the kettle never gets any scale. The immersion heater
element was in full time use for over thirty years until I retired it,
still in good order. Washing machine internals are still nearly as new
at twenty years old, washing powder use is very low and clothes are soft
and keep nice colours, shower head never needs descaling. Bubbles to
wash with, the list of advantages go on.
I was raised in a house with an ancient permutit softener, and a
softener was the second or third luxury item we bought when we got our
own house

[The Natural Philosopher]

Once you have experience of mains pressure hot water in a nice tankload,
and softened water, you will never go back to header tanks or combis or
unsoftened washing water again.



--
"Anyone who believes that the laws of physics are mere social
conventions is invited to try transgressing those conventions from the
windows of my apartment. (I live on the twenty-first floor.) "

Alan Sokal

[charles]

In article <f657451d-61de-46c9...@googlegroups.com>,

sinmce the [ipe was insstalled in 1911 And I removed it in 1988, I doubt if
it even knew what an electric descaler was.

[charles]

In article <o1mju5$1f3s$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Martin Brown

<|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 30/11/2016 12:27, charles wrote:
> > In article <31b1b329-8cdb-4bb7...@googlegroups.com>,
> > Eusebius <performan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> Personal experience? I removed one (probably not a £600 one) from the
> >>> incoming mains water here and it was all furred up inside the pipe.
> >>>
> >>> We have a salt based system and the difference between this and the
> >>> electrical system is pronounced. That is, salt works and the electric
> >>> version doesn't.
> >>>
> >>> Vulcan 3000 looks much the same - wrapped around the incoming pipe
> >>> and using magic/advance science. > Cheers > Dave R
> >
> >> So no takers..... I know Russ Andrews products and point well taken.

> Basically the thing works entirely by convincing people who are afraid
> of "chemicals" to part with lots of their hard earned cash. You can't
> blame salesman for flogging them - the bonus per sale must be enormous!
> >
> >> But tell me more about "furred up inside pipe"....?
> >
> > "furrer up" means that there are deposits clinging to then pipe walls.
> > In this house, I removed a straight piece of pipe which had been in
> > place for 60 years and I couldn't see through it. Just look inside
> > your kettle.

> That is a bit surprising unless you live in an incredibly hard water
> area

I do.

[MrCheerful]

> Our water is so hard it's a wonder it comes out of the tap. A (proper
> ion-exchange) softener was high up the list after we moved in in
> February. In order to placate the kitchen installer who was muttering
> about having an unsoftened supply in the kitchen, we have a Triflow tap
> with hot and cold softened and filtered unsoftened, since not only is
> it incredibly hard, it's also heavily chlorinated. The filtered stuff
> is quite palatable, compared to the unfiltered, which is vile. I know
> it's probably safe to drink, but it was nasty.
>
>
>
>

Same as here, straight off the mains it smells like a swimming pool.

[Peter Parry]

On Wed, 30 Nov 2016 03:21:38 -0800 (PST), Eusebius
<performan...@gmail.com> wrote:

>So - how effective is an electronic descaler? Anyone have experiences and views?

Some years ago following a lengthy defence here by an ex-supplier of
ones using very strong permanent magnets I was sent a couple to try.
My neighbour also had an electronic one I removed to experiment with.
The test setup was basically a water supply which could be used in
once through mode or re circulating. The test device was a kettle
modified to stay at 80 deg C. Water either went through it once or
could be circulated through it many times. The kettle was cleaned with
acid, dried and weighed before each test and dried and weighed
afterwards.

The test was conducted using water passing once through the device
(the normal situation for domestic installations) and also for the
same water circulating through it many times (as found in industrial
heating environments (where there are reports that high power magnetic
devices seem to have some effect).

Water from an ion-exchange softener was used as a comparator.

The results were :-

Simply heating water (with no softener of any type) caused an increase
in weight of the kettle as calcium salts deposited on the element.

The ion exchange softener water gave no change in weight of the test
item after the test and no white deposit on the element.

The strong magnet conditioner had no detectable effect on water in a
single pass setup, calcium salts were deposited as for the no
softener/conditioner.

It had a small and barely measurable effect on the same water
circulated through it hundreds of times. A smoother film formed on
the element and it was just possible to measure a very small
difference in weight change compared with the no conditioner/softener
baseline.

The electronic softener had no effect at all in any test, the results
were exactly the same as for the baseline no softener with exactly the
same increase in weight and noticeable white encrusting deposited.

The Advertising Standards Agency regularly criticise suppliers of
electronic conditioners :-

"The ASA understands that no universally accepted theory about how
these devices operate and no evidence to support the contention that
the devices can inhibit scale formation generally exists.

[Brian Gaff]

You have to be joking. If I read you right you expect something with no
additives and nowhere for the scale to go to remove these components from
the pipe magically?
The best I've seen done with such devices is to create a field inside the
pipe that clumps the particles together. This then builds up in the pipe and
clogs it up. I'd most certainly not spend a penny over a tenner on something
like that. What the heck to they claim for over 600 notes? I wonder do they
also make them based on the power of a pyramid as well?
I think you need to look at what makes water hard before doing anything
else.
Brian

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"Eusebius" <performan...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:24be45c0-d5dc-4752...@googlegroups.com...

[Brian Gaff]

Or changing expensive cartridges of, um, salt.. and filter materials.

No there is not an easy fix. In my humble view this is a failing of the
water industry. We of course have no proof that hard water is harmful, but
it does make one wonder that if the taps and pipes scale up in this way,
what the heck does it do to the bodys internal plumbing. Look inside your
kettle to see how much scale just gets there.

Brian

--
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Blind user, so no pictures please!

"GB" <NOTso...@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:o1mdeu$ga0$1...@dont-email.me...

[Martin Brown]

On 30/11/2016 17:39, Brian Gaff wrote:
> Or changing expensive cartridges of, um, salt.. and filter materials.
>
> No there is not an easy fix. In my humble view this is a failing of the
> water industry. We of course have no proof that hard water is harmful, but
> it does make one wonder that if the taps and pipes scale up in this way,
> what the heck does it do to the bodys internal plumbing. Look inside your
> kettle to see how much scale just gets there.

Very little effect in humans at all. Human stomach contains hydrochloric
acid and calcium chloride is quite soluble.

We *need* soluble calcium and magnesium for healthy bones.

Very soft water or worse still deionised water can be bad for you.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Andy Burns]

Brian Gaff wrote:

> If I read you right you expect something with no additives and
> nowhere for the scale to go to remove these components from the pipe
> magically?

Listen to the pseudo-scientific bullshit of this one

<https://youtu.be/ngFgS_b9ToA>

[Simon Mason]

On Wednesday, 30 November 2016 18:10:07 UTC, Martin Brown wrote:

> We *need* soluble calcium and magnesium for healthy bones.
>
> Very soft water or worse still deionised water can be bad for you.

I have a water softener, it cost £1300 fitted and we drink bottled mineral water.

[RayL12]

I've read the responsible replies so, now for the lateral :-)

Viktor Schauberger is a genius with water with it's many states and
healing properties. Using one of his natural vortex cones reshapes
water. Many huge industries use his technology.

An easy read on the pH effects on the body and the foods to combat it.
http://altered-states.net/barry/update178/

Dr Jerry Tennant on Youtube gives an excellent talk on Sanitas Radio of
the absolute need to keep your body pH in balance.

Is why the seaside and the fine spray of a high waterfall gives you a
feeling of well being.


...Ray. (in for a penny)

[RayL12]

On 30/11/2016 5:39 PM, Brian Gaff wrote:
> Or changing expensive cartridges of, um, salt.. and filter materials.
>
> No there is not an easy fix. In my humble view this is a failing of the
> water industry. We of course have no proof that hard water is harmful, but
> it does make one wonder that if the taps and pipes scale up in this way,
> what the heck does it do to the bodys internal plumbing. Look inside your
> kettle to see how much scale just gets there.
>
> Brian
>

UK tap water is dead, Brian.

[RayL12]

Simon, look on Youtube for Bottled Water pH. There are some bad bottled
waters and a few good.

...Ray.

[Simon Mason]

We are using San Pellegrino at the moment and I add CaSO4 to home brew water.

[RayL12]

Besides raising a temperature, what is the benefit in brew water?

[dennis@home]

On 30/11/2016 17:39, Brian Gaff wrote:

> Or changing expensive cartridges of, um, salt.. and filter materials.
>
> No there is not an easy fix. In my humble view this is a failing of the
> water industry. We of course have no proof that hard water is harmful, but
> it does make one wonder that if the taps and pipes scale up in this way,
> what the heck does it do to the bodys internal plumbing. Look inside your
> kettle to see how much scale just gets there.
>
> Brian
>

The water industry supplies water that is safe, soft water is not safe
and they make it harder if its too soft.

People pay good money for mineral water which is just hard water.

You need the minerals in the water so if you have soft water you may
need to supplement your diet with other mineral sources.

Its usually naturally hard too, just like the water man has been
drinking for millions of years, it hardens as it passes through the ground.

[dennis@home]

You have to get your bacteria somewhere and bottled water is a good source.

[dennis@home]

On 30/11/2016 14:05, Huge wrote:

8<

> And it's perfectly safe to drink softened water.
>

Its safe to drink some softened water, if you drink too much it is harmful.

[charles]

In article <583f41bf$0$7581$b1db1813$b965...@news.astraweb.com>,

my brother told me it makes disgusting tea,

[Syd Rumpo]

Burtonisation. Wikipedia has an explanation.

Cheers
--
Syd

[Rod Speed]

"dennis@home" <den...@nowhere.invalid> wrote in message
news:583f3ff0$0$1542$b1db1813$5ba2...@news.astraweb.com...

> On 30/11/2016 17:39, Brian Gaff wrote:
>> Or changing expensive cartridges of, um, salt.. and filter materials.
>>
>> No there is not an easy fix. In my humble view this is a failing of the
>> water industry. We of course have no proof that hard water is harmful,
>> but
>> it does make one wonder that if the taps and pipes scale up in this way,
>> what the heck does it do to the bodys internal plumbing. Look inside your
>> kettle to see how much scale just gets there.

> The water industry supplies water that is safe,

Yes.

> soft water is not safe

Wrong.

> and they make it harder if its too soft.

Like hell they do.

> People pay good money for mineral water which is just hard water.

People pay good money for all sorts of shit which is completely useless.

> You need the minerals in the water

Nope. You actually need SOME minerals, but not necessarily in the water.

> so if you have soft water you may need to supplement your diet with other
> mineral sources.

Hardly anyone does.

> Its usually naturally hard too, just like the water man has been drinking
> for millions of years,

Just as true of contaminated water as well.

> it hardens as it passes through the ground.

You did get that right, likely by accident.

[Rod Speed]

dennis@home <den...@nowhere.invalid> wrote
> Simon Mason wrote

>> Martin Brown wrote

>>> We *need* soluble calcium and magnesium for healthy bones.

>>> Very soft water or worse still deionised water can be bad for you.

>> I have a water softener, it cost £1300 fitted and we drink bottled
>> mineral water.

> You have to get your bacteria somewhere

No you don’t, you are in fact born with it.

> and bottled water is a good source.

Like hell it is.

[Rod Speed]

GB <NOTso...@microsoft.com> wrote

> If you want soft water, you'll need a proper deioniser.

Yes.

> And resign yourself to shovelling mountains of salt.

Nope. There are deionisers that don’t use salt.

[Simon Mason]

On Wednesday, 30 November 2016 20:57:30 UTC, RayL12 wrote:

>
> Besides raising a temperature, what is the benefit in brew water?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brewing_methods#Burtonisation

[Rod Speed]

Brian Gaff <bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote

> Or changing expensive cartridges of, um, salt.. and filter materials.

> No there is not an easy fix. In my humble view this is a failing of the
> water industry. We of course have no proof that hard water is harmful, but
> it does make one wonder that if the taps and pipes scale up in this way,
> what the heck does it do to the bodys internal plumbing.

The body works completely differently. There is plenty of stuff
that doesn’t get digested and ends up in your turds. There is
no reason why minerals in the water you drink can't too.

> Look inside your kettle to see how much scale just gets there.

That is a very different effect the effect of the heated element
turning soluble minerals into insoluble ones which end up
on the heating element. Nothing like that in your stomach.

[Davey]

On Wed, 30 Nov 2016 17:39:39 -0000
"Brian Gaff" <bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

> Or changing expensive cartridges of, um, salt.. and filter materials.
>
> No there is not an easy fix. In my humble view this is a failing of
> the water industry.

In East Anglia, where the water is rated as Extremely Hard, the cost of
softening the entire water supply would exceed the country's GOP. And
there would not be enough salt in the ground to do the job.
I'll stick to softening my own household supply.

--
Davey.

[Rod Speed]

Simon Mason <swld...@gmail.com> wrote

> Martin Brown wrote

>> We *need* soluble calcium and magnesium for healthy bones.

>> Very soft water or worse still deionised water can be bad for you.

> I have a water softener, it cost £1300 fitted and we drink bottled mineral
> water.

Mad waste of money on both counts.

[Simon Mason]

Wrong as usual.

http://www.hullwatersofteners.co.uk/totally-soft-water/save-time

[Simon Mason]

http://www.hullwatersofteners.co.uk/totally-soft-water/hard-vs-soft

[Rod Speed]

RayL12 <ray...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote
> Simon Mason wrote

>> Martin Brown wrote

>>> We *need* soluble calcium and magnesium for healthy bones.

>>> Very soft water or worse still deionised water can be bad for you.

>> I have a water softener, it cost £1300 fitted and we drink bottled
>> mineral water.

> Simon, look on Youtube for Bottled Water pH. There are some bad bottled
> waters and a few good.

There isnt a shred of rigorous evidence that the pH of
the water you drink actually matters a damn within limits
and that isnt surprising given that the stomach contains
hydrochloric acid at considerable concentrations given
the burning of the throat you can get with reflux etc.

Just because someone claims something on youtube...

[Rod Speed]

"Simon Mason" <swld...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:fe1ab589-d5d9-4851...@googlegroups.com...

> On Friday, 2 December 2016 03:40:49 UTC, Rod Speed wrote:
>> Simon Mason <swld...@gmail.com> wrote
>> > Martin Brown wrote
>>
>> >> We *need* soluble calcium and magnesium for healthy bones.
>>
>> >> Very soft water or worse still deionised water can be bad for you.
>>
>> > I have a water softener, it cost £1300 fitted and we drink bottled
>> > mineral
>> > water.
>>
>> Mad waste of money on both counts.

> http://www.hullwatersofteners.co.uk/totally-soft-water/save-time

Just because some fool who is flogging something claims something...

[tabb...@gmail.com]

Having lived in a house both with & without a water softener I can confirm it does save on cleaning time. And adds salt collecting & refilling time.


NT

[David]

On Wed, 30 Nov 2016 05:12:52 -0800, Eusebius wrote:

>> > But tell me more about "furred up inside pipe"....?
>>
>> "furrer up" means that there are deposits clinging to then pipe walls.
>> In this house, I removed a straight piece of pipe which had been in
>> place for 60 years and I couldn't see through it. Just look inside
>> your kettle.

>>
>> --
>> from KT24 in Surrey, England
>

> So this furring up was exactly where the wires were wrapped around the
> pipe to fit the descaler?

Sorry for the delayed response.

Furred under and to both sides IIRC. Just like I would expect and cold
water pipe in a hard water area to be after a few years.

It certainly wasn't removing the hardness and depositing it on the pipe;
this would be counter productive anyway because that would just block the
pipe after a while. Consider how much scale builds up inside a kettle over
the months.

Anyway, with the device (installed before we moved in) we had hard water.

After fitting a salt based water softener we had soft water.

Nuff said.

Cheers


Dave R


--
AMD FX-6300 in GA-990X-Gaming SLI-CF running Windows 7 Pro x64

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[RayL12]

Thank you for all your research on this matter, Rod.

[RayL12]

Your are NOT born with any amount of bacteria. The first bacteria a new
born gets is from the vaginal lining. The next and most essential source
is breast milk. There after, naturally grown foods.

[RayL12]

There are plenty of reasons why 'heavy' materials can lay abandoned in
the body system. The most obvious symptom is kidney stones.

[newshound]

On 11/30/2016 4:49 PM, Peter Parry wrote:
> On Wed, 30 Nov 2016 03:21:38 -0800 (PST), Eusebius
> <performan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> So - how effective is an electronic descaler? Anyone have experiences and views?
>
> Some years ago following a lengthy defence here by an ex-supplier of
> ones using very strong permanent magnets I was sent a couple to try.
> My neighbour also had an electronic one I removed to experiment with.
> The test setup was basically a water supply which could be used in
> once through mode or re circulating. The test device was a kettle
> modified to stay at 80 deg C. Water either went through it once or
> could be circulated through it many times. The kettle was cleaned with
> acid, dried and weighed before each test and dried and weighed
> afterwards.
>
> The test was conducted using water passing once through the device
> (the normal situation for domestic installations) and also for the
> same water circulating through it many times (as found in industrial
> heating environments (where there are reports that high power magnetic
> devices seem to have some effect).
>
> Water from an ion-exchange softener was used as a comparator.
>
> The results were :-
>
> Simply heating water (with no softener of any type) caused an increase
> in weight of the kettle as calcium salts deposited on the element.
>
> The ion exchange softener water gave no change in weight of the test
> item after the test and no white deposit on the element.
>
> The strong magnet conditioner had no detectable effect on water in a
> single pass setup, calcium salts were deposited as for the no
> softener/conditioner.
>
> It had a small and barely measurable effect on the same water
> circulated through it hundreds of times. A smoother film formed on
> the element and it was just possible to measure a very small
> difference in weight change compared with the no conditioner/softener
> baseline.
>
> The electronic softener had no effect at all in any test, the results
> were exactly the same as for the baseline no softener with exactly the
> same increase in weight and noticeable white encrusting deposited.
>
> The Advertising Standards Agency regularly criticise suppliers of
> electronic conditioners :-
>
> "The ASA understands that no universally accepted theory about how
> these devices operate and no evidence to support the contention that
> the devices can inhibit scale formation generally exists.
>
>
Interesting.

When I moved to Gloucestershire many years ago, a colleague had moved to
a neighbouring house a couple of years previously. He was a very
competent, and very cynical physicist / geologist. He complained of
severe furring on kettles and other electrical heaters. Going against
his better judgement, he tried a magnetic device and was astonished to
discover that the deposits no longer built up, but crumbled and came off
as relatively fine powder. I repeated the experiment and found much the
same thing. A few years later I had to replace the water main, and for
various reasons removed the magnetic unit and found I no longer had
scaling problems. I can only imagine that the water source and/or
treatment was changed at some point, but at the time of fitting the
devices seemed to make a difference. Perhaps, when new, they were adding
some copper (or other) ions until a fully protective scale built up
inside them, and this was sufficient to provide temporary relief?

[RayL12]

Water has many properties and states.

You may be interested in the works of Viktor Scauberger.
Jerry Tennant gives a good account of polarised water and the human body.

Dr. Masaru Emoto who flash freezes water shows how the crystals formed
can be beautiful(snowflake) or deformed dependent upon the music he
plays as it freezes. The transformation is also effected by his moods.
Something also discovered by a few others.

Water is programmable. It's state within the body determines many
things. It is the reforming of water that determines the shape of the
cells at any given moment. The shape of the cells reforms the shape of
the DNA which in turn determines the type of RNA output.

When you are at peace, at EASE, the body concentrates the resources to
repair and health. Under stress(flight or fight)(dis EASE) the body
produces RNA for the muscles.

Being kept in continual states of stress makes us less able to
function both mentally and physically keeping body and soul 'locked in'.
In this condition we are attuned to stress and respond to bad news very
easily.

Water responds very well to light waves but more so to sound waves.
The wave patterns running through a body that is producing new cells
will determine the cell shape and structure. This condition will become
the cells natural tendency. For instance, if you are growing in the womb
of a woman who is under constant stress, stress will come natural to you.

Thankfully, genes are reprogrammable and, given that the body
completely replaces every single part of you several times in a
lifetime, you can eventually change new cell shapes and with it, your
future tendencies. Though, like a crease in a piece of paper, it's a
'memory' and will always be there. So, a relapse could easily happen.

Bruce Lipton gives a great account of this.

[Rod Speed]

"RayL12" <ray...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
news:o24f62$ahq$2...@dont-email.me...

Yes.

> There after, naturally grown foods.

Not just naturally grown foods, all foods.

And from sucking their thumbs and putting almost
everything that fits into their mouths, etc etc etc.

[Rod Speed]

"RayL12" <ray...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message

news:o24grr$hjf$1...@dont-email.me...

Not plenty, just a few in fact.

> The most obvious symptom is kidney stones.

That isnt due to lay abandoned, the stones form
when you don’t drink enough water and that stuff
precipitates out. But doesn’t happen due to hard
water which has insoluble salts in it that don’t
get into the blood steam and so cant end up
as kidney stones.

[Rod Speed]

RayL12 <ray...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote

> Rod Speed wrote
>> GB <NOTso...@microsoft.com> wrote

>>> If you want soft water, you'll need a proper deioniser.

>> Yes.

>>> And resign yourself to shovelling mountains of salt.

>> Nope. There are deionisers that don’t use salt.

> Water has many properties and states.

Irrelevant to whether all dionisers use salt, some of them don’t.

> You may be interested in the works of Viktor Scauberger.

I'm only interested in rigorous science.

> Jerry Tennant gives a good account of polarised water

No such animal.

> and the human body.

> Dr. Masaru Emoto who flash freezes water shows how the crystals formed
> can be beautiful(snowflake) or deformed dependent upon the music he plays
> as it freezes. The transformation is also effected by his moods.

More mindless silly shit.

> Something also discovered by a few others.

Bullshit.

> Water is programmable.

Depends on what you mean by programmable.

> It's state within the body

It doesn’t have more than one state within the body.

> determines many things.

Bullshit.

> It is the reforming of water that

No such animal.

> determines the shape of the cells at any given moment.

Bullshit.

> The shape of the cells reforms the shape of the DNA

Even sillier than you usually manage.

> which in turn determines the type of RNA output.

Even sillier than you usually manage.

> When you are at peace, at EASE, the body concentrates the resources to
> repair and health.

Even sillier than you usually manage.

> Under stress(flight or fight)(dis EASE) the body produces RNA for the
> muscles.

Even sillier than you usually manage.

> Being kept in continual states of stress makes us less able to function
> both mentally and physically keeping body and soul 'locked in'. In this
> condition we are attuned to stress and respond to bad news very easily.

Even sillier than you usually manage.

> Water responds very well to light waves but more so to sound waves.

Just as true of almost everything.

> The wave patterns running through a body that is producing new cells

Even sillier than you usually manage.

> will determine the cell shape and structure.

Even sillier than you usually manage.

> This condition will become the cells natural tendency.

Even sillier than you usually manage.

> For instance, if you are growing in the womb of a woman who is under
> constant stress, stress will come natural to you.

Even sillier than you usually manage.

> Thankfully, genes are reprogrammable

Even sillier than you usually manage.

> and, given that the body completely replaces every single part of you
> several times in a lifetime, you can eventually change new cell shapes and
> with it, your future tendencies.

Even sillier than you usually manage.

> Though, like a crease in a piece of paper, it's a 'memory' and will always
> be there. So, a relapse could easily happen.

> Bruce Lipton gives a great account of this.

It isnt 'an account', its just more mindless silly stuff.

[Chrisp]

replying to Martin Brown, Chrisp wrote:
That's quite right. Hard water is not biologically harmful, and is probably
beneficial. Increasing the sodium ion concentration in the water (ie salt) is
harmful, though, especially if you have high blood pressure. If you fit an
ion-exchange water softener to avoid scale build up in heating systems,
washing machines etc, make sure you fit a hard water take off from the main
supply before it goes into the softener (a swan-neck spout next to the tap in
your kitchen sink is easiest), and use it for cooking and drinking. Descaling
your kettle from time to time is better than having a heart attack!

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/uk-diy/electronic-water-softeners-e-g-vulcan-3000-how-effective-1173706-.htm

[Chrisp]

replying to RayL12, Chrisp wrote:
..and the presence of plastic microparticles in the packaging is really bad
for you! And if course the problems of water bottle waste disposal. Ban
plastic bottled water!

[Chrisp]

replying to Simon Mason, Chrisp wrote:
No, 100% right on both counts, actually. Do you really think that quoting
'data' from a water softener company constitutes impartial science?

Bottled mineral water is expensive and bad for you, on several counts.
Disposing of the packaging is a massive environmental problem.

Hard drinking water is actually good for you. Softened water most definitely
isn't.

The only benefits of softened water are that it reduces scaling in your
central heating system (easily addressed by adding a good quality inhibitor)
and your bathwater uses less soap (you can buy a lot of soap for £1300...).
Otherwise, they are an expensive and unnecessary scam.

[Chrisp]

replying to RayL12, Chrisp wrote:

Oh dear...

Lay lines next, I expect.

Whatever happened to rigorous scientific education?

[Chrisp]

replying to Rod Speed, Chrisp wrote:
Well said, Rod.

Where did this 'water memory' nonsense (or non-science) originate? Homeopathy,
probably. Don't get me started...

[Rod Speed]

Chrisp <caedfaa9ed1216d60ef...@example.com> wrote

> RayL12 wrote:

> Whatever happened to rigorous scientific education?

Most don’t have the brains to make any use of it.

[tabb...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, 13 May 2018 16:14:08 UTC+1, Chrisp wrote:
> replying to RayL12, Chrisp wrote:
> Oh dear...
>
> Lay lines next, I expect.
>
> Whatever happened to rigorous scientific education?

You're answering a lot of historic posts without giving any clue what you're responding to. That's h o h for you. Get here a more sensible way. Here is news:uk.d-i-y


NT

[Brian Gaff]

Deja View all over again?
Electronic ones merely clump the particles together they remove nothing, the
net effect is a tendency to narrow the pipe.
Snake oil.
Brian

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"Chrisp" <caedfaa9ed1216d60ef...@example.com> wrote in
message news:_CYJC.148646$tw.9...@fx42.am4...

[Vir Campestris]

On 13/05/2018 18:18, Huge wrote:
> IMNHO, "most definitely" is a bit strong. The amount of sodium in softened water is verging on negligable.

Let me do the maths... we run about 370ppm. I drink a couple of litres a
day, so that about 3/4 gram. The RDA is about 6g, so while not a lot it
isn't negligible - it's over 10% of my RDA.

Andy

[Vir Campestris]

On 13/05/2018 18:02, Tim Streater wrote:
> In article <_CYJC.148646$tw.9...@fx42.am4>, Chrisp

> <caedfaa9ed1216d60ef...@example.com> wrote:
>
>> replying to Martin Brown, Chrisp wrote:
>> That's quite right. Hard water is not biologically harmful, and is
>> probably
>> beneficial. Increasing the sodium ion concentration in the water (ie

>> salt) ...
>
> It won't be salt, will it. It'll be sodium carbonate.
>
It's the sodium that matters, not the chloride. And that will be in the
form of sodium ions.

Andy

[John Rumm]

On 13/05/2018 16:14, Chrisp wrote:
> replying to Simon Mason, Chrisp wrote:

> The only benefits of softened water are that it reduces scaling in your
> central heating system

Nonsense, the water in the CH primary system is recirculating. Once any
scale from the original fill has been deposited, there will be little
further scaling unless fresh water is being continually added.

Most boiler manufacturers also caution against filling the system with
softened water.

> and your bathwater uses less soap (you can buy a lot of soap for £1300...).
> Otherwise, they are an expensive and unnecessary scam.

They can't be a scam, since they work as advertised. Whether you believe
them to be necessary or not is a separate issue.


--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

[Bob Eager]

On Mon, 14 May 2018 21:57:57 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

> On 13/05/2018 16:14, Chrisp wrote:
>> replying to Simon Mason, Chrisp wrote:
>
>> The only benefits of softened water are that it reduces scaling in your
>> central heating system
>
> Nonsense, the water in the CH primary system is recirculating. Once any
> scale from the original fill has been deposited, there will be little
> further scaling unless fresh water is being continually added.
>
> Most boiler manufacturers also caution against filling the system with
> softened water.
>
>> and your bathwater uses less soap (you can buy a lot of soap for
>> £1300...).
>> Otherwise, they are an expensive and unnecessary scam.
>
> They can't be a scam, since they work as advertised. Whether you believe
> them to be necessary or not is a separate issue.

I laugh at the Calgon adverts with the lime encrusted washing machine
elements. We are in a hard water area, and I didn't have to touch our
washing machine element for twelve years. Even then, it was only because
the integral gasket had hardened and started to leak - the actual element
had a light film of scale.


--
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wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

[John Rumm]

On 14/05/2018 22:40, Bob Eager wrote:
> On Mon, 14 May 2018 21:57:57 +0100, John Rumm wrote:
>
>> On 13/05/2018 16:14, Chrisp wrote:
>>> replying to Simon Mason, Chrisp wrote:
>>
>>> The only benefits of softened water are that it reduces scaling in your
>>> central heating system
>>
>> Nonsense, the water in the CH primary system is recirculating. Once any
>> scale from the original fill has been deposited, there will be little
>> further scaling unless fresh water is being continually added.
>>
>> Most boiler manufacturers also caution against filling the system with
>> softened water.
>>
>>> and your bathwater uses less soap (you can buy a lot of soap for
>>> £1300...).
>>> Otherwise, they are an expensive and unnecessary scam.
>>
>> They can't be a scam, since they work as advertised. Whether you believe
>> them to be necessary or not is a separate issue.

Might be worth adding I just realised this old resurrected thread was
about so called electronic "softeners" - I don't want anyone to think I
am suggesting they will soften water ;-) You need an ion exchange device
for that.

> I laugh at the Calgon adverts with the lime encrusted washing machine
> elements. We are in a hard water area, and I didn't have to touch our
> washing machine element for twelve years. Even then, it was only because
> the integral gasket had hardened and started to leak - the actual element
> had a light film of scale.

Even if fairly heavily scaled, the basic laws of physics suggest it will
just run hotter to compensate, and achieve the same rate of heating...
So it might not last as long, but that is no guarantee something else
won't fail before it.

[Scott]

replying to David, Scott wrote:
Hi Dave
I looked into the Vulcan and after much research and deliberation ended up
getting one
This system is not the magnetic type you are describing, it uses capacitive
pulses and it’s not your cheap rubbish but the damn thing works.
They do systems for industry too and lots of legitimate references
Check out their website cwtpartners.co.uk

[Scott]

replying to Eusebius, Scott wrote:
The furring is caused by calcium deposits
But if you are referring to the furring at the point of installation of a
cheap magnetic coil system then these is a build up of iron deposits and can
lead to a build up of bacteria, viruses, sludge and slime - not healthy water

[Scott]

replying to MrCheerful, Scott wrote:
Is it eco-friendly and what are the year on year running costs, maintenance etc

[tabb...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, 3 January 2019 03:44:05 UTC, Scott wrote:
> replying to David, Scott wrote:
> Hi Dave
> I looked into the Vulcan and after much research and deliberation ended up
> getting one
> This system is not the magnetic type you are describing, it uses capacitive
> pulses and it’s not your cheap rubbish but the damn thing works.
> They do systems for industry too and lots of legitimate references
> Check out their website cwtpartners.co.uk

well worn scam.

[Martin Brown]

On 03/01/2019 03:44, Scott wrote:
> replying to David, Scott wrote:
> Hi Dave
> I looked into the Vulcan and after much research and deliberation ended up
> getting one
> This system is not the magnetic type you are describing, it uses capacitive
> pulses and it’s not your cheap rubbish but the damn thing works. They do

Expensive *rubbish* then. Weird that you choose to resurrect a thread
from 2016 to try and flog this junk in a DIY group.

Oh I see you have tacked an advert for this unmitigated crap on all the
old threads asking about water softening scam devices.

> systems for industry too and lots of legitimate references
> Check out their website cwtpartners.co.uk
>

Yeah right. WTF is a capacitive pulse when it is at home if not pure
marketing bollocks to confuse the unwary.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Andy Burns]

Martin Brown wrote:

> pure marketing bollocks

Ca(HCO₃)₂ + vulcan => CaCo₃ + CO₂ + H₂O

Wonder where it gets the Cobalt ions from?

[Brian Gaff]

The principal is slightly effective in making some of the stuff clump
together, but people have shown me the state of the pipe where its been
fitted almost completely blocked by gunk.
I mean there is no way such a simple device can remove anything and
therefore it has to end up somewhere, so its probably effective for a while
till the grot builds up then flakes of it start to detach and gum up the
works further on. Its a typical snake oil idea, ie a quick demonstratable
fix that will be of limited use long term but by then the money has been
pent.




The bottom line is you need to ask anything that looks too good to be true,
fine but where does the stuff it takes out actually go then? That is when
they start to babble rubbish.
Brian

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<tabb...@gmail.com> wrote in message
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[Brian Gaff]

That will be the bit where the boundary layer of the pipe is used like a
grid in a CRT then...!
No I've actually seen that far from really removing stuff they tend to
just charge it up so it clumps together and bungs up the works.

As I say in an earlier post you have to ask yourself where all this
arrested stuff goes and how it gets taken away. it does not of course and
can be fare worse than leaving it in small dissolved bits in the first
place.
Maybe he is feeling the pinch since people are onto his big drawback. On
the other hand maybe he simply believes in it he cannot see the folly.

Brian

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"Andy Burns" <use...@andyburns.uk> wrote in message
news:g962ot...@mid.individual.net...

> Martin Brown wrote:
>
>> pure marketing bollocks
>

> Ca(HCO?)? + vulcan => CaCo? + CO? + H?O

[Andy Burns]

Brian Gaff wrote:

> That will be the bit where the boundary layer of the pipe is used like a
> grid in a CRT then...!

Might have been difficult for you to read but in their chemical formula
they'd buggered up carbonate CO3 (capital O) as cobalt Co3 (small o).

Maybe tricobalt is more efficient than dilithium crystals? Not that I
ever remember the Enterprise breaking down with furred-up plumbing.

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 03/01/2019 03:44, Scott wrote:

> replying to Eusebius, Scott wrote:
> The furring is caused by calcium deposits But if you are referring to
> the furring at the point of installation of a
> cheap magnetic coil system then these is a build up of iron deposits and
> can
> lead to a build up of bacteria, viruses, sludge and slime - not healthy
> water
>

spam somwehere else cunt


--
"Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and
higher education positively fortifies it."

- Stephen Vizinczey

[tabb...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, 3 January 2019 12:26:35 UTC, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 03/01/2019 03:44, Scott wrote:

> > The furring is caused by calcium deposits But if you are referring to
> > the furring at the point of installation of a
> > cheap magnetic coil system then these is a build up of iron deposits and
> > can
> > lead to a build up of bacteria, viruses, sludge and slime - not healthy
> > water
> >
> spam somwehere else cunt

more scam than just spam

[Cynic]

I was motivated to search some of the old posts that had appeared in uk.d-i-y over the years. Magnetic water conditioner brings up some storming fun, especially the blather that poured out of "adam" lol

[Rob Morley]

On Thu, 3 Jan 2019 10:46:09 +0000
Andy Burns <use...@andyburns.uk> wrote:

> Maybe tricobalt is more efficient than dilithium crystals? Not that I
> ever remember the Enterprise breaking down with furred-up plumbing.

That might be The Trouble With Tribbles.

[save our h2o]

Worked the first day I used Eddy. Our water was super hard verified by the water company that tested it. There's a big difference in the wash especially the jeans. They used to come out stiff and wrinkled and now they are so soft and wrinkle free. Our utensils are so much shinier. No scum. My hair feels a lot better too. Of course, we have to clean off the old scum on everything, it won't remove the stuff that's already there. If you don't see a difference, check your installation. You have to make sure everything is spaced correctly and the wires are all wrapped in the same direction.

[Andy Burns]

save our h2o wrote:

> Worked
So, are you Edward B. Goehring or Natalie Bridges?

[Brian Gaff (Sofa)]

The problem as has been mentioned here before, is that it does not remove
the limescale. What they tend to do is make them clump together in larger
lumps and fall into the bottom of the pipe. I can only guess what might
happen in a few years.
Think about it, most use a chemical action to bind to and remove the
stuff, this uses a magnetic and electrostatic filled to stick the bits
together? You end up with what happens to magnets or high voltage sources.
The magnets get ferrous metal debris stuck to them and the old crt screens
gathered dust like well a magnet, except that its electrostatic not
magnetism.

Where else can it really go but somewhere in the plumbing?
Brian

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"save our h2o" <saveo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
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[Brian Gaff (Sofa)]

I'm surprised Russ Andrews does not sell them, with oxygen free wire of
course, and don't forget the gold plated copper pipe.
Seriously, they only work for a short time because the clump the limescale
together near the field. its just building up somewhere else, that is all,
it has to be as its got nowhere else to go!

Brian

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"Andy Burns" <use...@andyburns.uk> wrote in message

news:hvkscc...@mid.individual.net...

[Diana Ricketts]

On Wednesday, November 30, 2016 at 6:21:42 AM UTC-5, Eusebius wrote:
> I have moderately hard water and it would be good to use a water softener. I like the idea of an electronic one that doesn't add chemicals. It descales the pipes and taps as I understand.
>
> Vulcan 3000 has been recommended to me by my bathroom showroom. It's around £600 and there are cheaper alternatives.
>
> So - how effective is an electronic descaler? Anyone have experiences and views?

Here, this seems helpful:
"A critical review of the application of electromagnetic fields for scaling control in water systems: mechanisms, characterization, and operation" (1 June 2020) https://www.nature.com/articles/s41545-020-0071-9

[alan_m]

Check the date of the question.

November 30, 2016 at 6:21:42 AM UTC-5, Eusebius wrote:

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

[Brian Gaff]

Yes, and this same question is perennial. To my knowledge there is no way a
closed system that does not process water, can ever soften it. All these
devices seem to be able to do is make some of the calcium clump together and
maybe or maybe not stick to the sides of pipes.
Brian

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"alan_m" <ju...@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message
news:kpnspp...@mid.individual.net...

> On 23/10/2023 19:28, Diana Ricketts wrote:

>> On Wednesday, November 30, 2016 at 6:21:42?AM UTC-5, Eusebius wrote:
>>> I have moderately hard water and it would be good to use a water
>>> softener. I like the idea of an electronic one that doesn't add
>>> chemicals. It descales the pipes and taps as I understand.
>>>
>>> Vulcan 3000 has been recommended to me by my bathroom showroom. It's
>>> around £600 and there are cheaper alternatives.
>>>
>>> So - how effective is an electronic descaler? Anyone have experiences
>>> and views?
>>
>> Here, this seems helpful:
>> "A critical review of the application of electromagnetic fields for
>> scaling control in water systems: mechanisms, characterization, and
>> operation" (1 June 2020)
>> https://www.nature.com/articles/s41545-020-0071-9
>
>
> Check the date of the question.

[alan_m]

On 24/10/2023 10:16, Brian Gaff wrote:
> Yes, and this same question is perennial. To my knowledge there is no way a
> closed system that does not process water, can ever soften it. All these
> devices seem to be able to do is make some of the calcium clump together and
> maybe or maybe not stick to the sides of pipes.

What may work at an industrial scale as stated in the linked article is
hardly likely to work with the snake oil domestic products sold to the
gullible public.


A safe electrical installation of a Vulcan 3000?
<https://www.cwt-vulcan.com/wp-content/uploads/vulcan-3000-descaler-0996.jpg>

[Davey]

Which appears to have the manufacturer's logo, and so is
presumably approved by them. Shudder. But at least it's only a 120v
supply.

--
Davey.