Concrete sectional garage - removing some panels
Bert Coules
converting it for use as a workshop. My main question is this: would it be
possible to remove several of the 16" wide sections from one of the long
sides and replace them with a timber frame which could hold a door and a
window? I'm thinking that this might be easier than cutting two separate
openings into the existing intact concrete wall.
The panels are bolted together near the top and bottom, and are also fixed
to the wooden beams supporting the (corrugated metal) roof. I don't think
they're bolted to the concrete base: they appear to be kept in place purely
by their weight.
Assuming that I could undo or cut through some of the bolts (and release the
fixings to the roof beam) could say three or four of the panels then be
removed without affecting the rest of the structure? There would still be
several panels left standing either side of the gap, and that's a huge
amount of weight to leave relatively unsupported, even for a short time: I'd
like to know in advance that everything would be stable while I fitted the
timber frame.
Many thanks.
geoff
Coules <ma...@bertcoules.co.uk> writes
--
geoff
John Rumm
> I have a (quite old) concrete sectional garage and am wondering about
> converting it for use as a workshop. My main question is this: would it
> be possible to remove several of the 16" wide sections from one of the
> long sides and replace them with a timber frame which could hold a door
> and a window? I'm thinking that this might be easier than cutting two
> separate openings into the existing intact concrete wall.
I know the sort of thing - tall full height panels, about 18" - 24"
wide. Rafters run across the width every so often to take a
traditionally corrugated roof.
> The panels are bolted together near the top and bottom, and are also
> fixed to the wooden beams supporting the (corrugated metal) roof. I
> don't think they're bolted to the concrete base: they appear to be kept
> in place purely by their weight.
Can't see any problem having a few away.
However, to be certain, make up a wide dead man prop[1] - to span the
width of the section you are taking out. Stick that under the ends of
the rafters that will be unsupported before you remove the wall, and
kick the leg in place so that it is taking the weight of the rafter
ends. Then take out the panels and build your frame in.
[1] i.e. a more robust version of this made out of a couple of lengths
of 4x2"
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Dead_man_prop
> Assuming that I could undo or cut through some of the bolts (and release
> the fixings to the roof beam) could say three or four of the panels then
> be removed without affecting the rest of the structure? There would
> still be several panels left standing either side of the gap, and that's
> a huge amount of weight to leave relatively unsupported, even for a
> short time: I'd like to know in advance that everything would be stable
> while I fitted the timber frame.
What's the roof made from?
--
Cheers,
John.
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Bert Coules
> Is it a Compton or a Banbury or other make?
Thanks for the reply. I've found no identification anywhere on the
structure (it was already here when I bought the property). Does the brand
make a difference to what I'm considering?
geoff
Coules <ma...@bertcoules.co.uk> writes
If its a compton, you should, if the bolts aren't too rusty, be able to
lift the "above" panels and lift out the required panel
with a Banbury, they are held together with mastic which can be a bit
more of a challenmge
--
geoff
Bert Coules
"above" panels' - the panels of my garage are approximately 16 inches wide
by 6 feet 6 inches high, and the height of the structure is the height of
the panels (plus a little extra for the roof) - there are no above and below
components.
geoff
Coules <ma...@bertcoules.co.uk> writes
Then it is neither of the above in that case (the two most common makes)
I think you would need to put a brace across when you remove the panel
as there is little else to maintain structural integrity
--
geoff
Bert Coules
On closer inspection, it looks as though the panels are just butted up
against each other: it shouldn't be necessary to lift them out since once
the bolts are removed or cut they should just come away. But there does
seem to be mastic in the butt-joints, so possibly my garage is a Banbury.
harry
There are lots of concrete garage manufactures gone out of business
now.
But they were all either post and panel or a series of vertical
panels.
You'll probably be OK so long as you don't take away the corner
structure which give the structure stability.
You need to make sure any roof trusses are supported. Also determine
how the roof sheets are supported off the walls. They will be
asbestos cement.
You will probably need some sort of lintel to support them over your
proposed opening unless your door frame is substsantial.
Bert Coules
> You'll probably be OK so long as you don't take away the corner
> structure which give the structure stability.
Thanks for that. Fortunately, the tentative plan leaves the corners
untouched.
> Also determine how the roof sheets are supported off the walls.
The roof sheets are screwed from the outside to wooden beams which run
across across the width of the structure. The beams themselves are screwed
to steel brackets bolted to the tops of the wall panels.
> They will be asbestos cement.
No, the panels are thin corrugated metal sheet, though I'm not sure exactly
what the material is.
On the subject of the roof, at the moment the garage sometimes suffers from
condensation: it forms on the interior of the metal sheet and drips
copiously. Obviously this is something I'd like to stop, and I have
wondered about replacing the corrugated sheeting with something else:
plastic panels maybe, or even wood and roofing felt. Any thoughts on that
would be welcome.
MuddyMike
"Bert Coules" <ma...@bertcoules.co.uk> wrote in message
news:kvWdnTVbEImsGXHQ...@brightview.co.uk...
I have a similar garage and it sound like your plan would work. Just add a
temp support to the roof sheets above the panels you remove. You may find
the panels have a type of "tongue and groove" joint between them that will
make it a bit difficult to get the first one out. Try sticking a thin blade
between two of then to find out.
Maybe some insulation stuck to the underside of the sheets would stop the
condensation as it is caused by the water in the warmer air inside
condensing on contact with the cold sheets. Polystyrene is cheap perhaps
that would do.
Mike
fred
Double skin metal profile sheeting with built in insulation would do
the job. You want to be careful you don't replace a corrugated metal
roof with anything much heavier than the original. The market for
these pre-fabricated garages was quite intense so they didn't tend to
over spec things like roof support structures.
Also, if replacing the roof consider inserting full length translucent
panels. They make the inside very bright, eliminate the need for
windows (A security issue. The scrotes won't be able to see what you
have inside) and also due to the elimination of windows free up lots
of wall space for storage.
All worked for me
Bert Coules
translucent (or even completely clear) plastic for the roof (and maybe for
the entire roof, not just let-in panels), and also about lining the existing
metal with some sort of insulation. A problem with the latter is that it
would reduce the already limited headroom, which I'd rather not do. Would
plastic roofing make the interior very hot on sunny days, though? The
conservatory/greenhouse effect?
Good point about the dangers of replacing the tinplate (or whatever it is)
with something heavier. The existing support beams are pretty flimsy and
there are only three of them (not counting the front and back walls). The
garage is 16'6" x 8'6".
I'll try a knife blade through the panel joints to make absolutely sure that
they'r not t&g'd. Good idea.
Nick Odell
I'm imagining something like this - gleaned from a search on Google
images - http://www.hammerhands.co.uk/outbuildings.html
Is there a better example to be found from searching on the web or
would you be able to upload a picture of your own and post the url
here?
Somebody might have already written a monograph on the distinctions
between the construction of various prefabricated buildings and may
have even enumerated the hundred and forty forms of fly-ash to be
found in the concrete composition of the same but I think in this
instance a photo may prove more useful :-)
Nick
--
real e-mail is nickodell (at) bigfoot (dot) com
dennis@home
"fred" <tpmc...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:5707b6f5-a1dd-4ec4...@v8g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
> On 6 June, 08:39, "Bert Coules" <m...@bertcoules.co.uk> wrote:
>> Harry wrote:
>> > You'll probably be OK so long as you don't take away the corner
>> > structure which give the structure stability.
>>
>> Thanks for that. Fortunately, the tentative plan leaves the corners
>> untouched.
>>
>> > Also determine how the roof sheets are supported off the walls.
>>
>> The roof sheets are screwed from the outside to wooden beams which run
>> across across the width of the structure. The beams themselves are
>> screwed
>> to steel brackets bolted to the tops of the wall panels.
>>
>> > They will be asbestos cement.
>>
>> No, the panels are thin corrugated metal sheet, though I'm not sure
>> exactly
>> what the material is.
Plastic coated steel on the comptons I saw.
>>
>> On the subject of the roof, at the moment the garage sometimes suffers
>> from
>> condensation: it forms on the interior of the metal sheet and drips
>> copiously. Obviously this is something I'd like to stop, and I have
>> wondered about replacing the corrugated sheeting with something else:
>> plastic panels maybe, or even wood and roofing felt. Any thoughts on
>> that
>> would be welcome.
Plastic panels suffer condensation and drip.
I can even get condensation under my carport if the weather is wrong.
>
> Double skin metal profile sheeting with built in insulation would do
> the job.
Don't you believe it.
Any cold surface will suffer condensation as soon as warm moist air hits it.
Plastic and metal will then drip.
There won't be enough insulation to stop it happening on a steel panel in a
shed unless he is fitting CH.
The easiest way to get lots of condensation is to have a layer of snow on
the roof and a day of warm weather creating nice moist air in the shed.
The usual way they stop the condensation dripping is to coat the surface
with a fibrous stuff that holds onto the water until its warm enough to
evaporate. The latest Compton garage steel roofs are coated like this.
>You want to be careful you don't replace a corrugated metal
> roof with anything much heavier than the original. The market for
> these pre-fabricated garages was quite intense so they didn't tend to
> over spec things like roof support structures.
they certainly have on mine.. thick steel, trussed rafters.
>
> Also, if replacing the roof consider inserting full length translucent
> panels. They make the inside very bright, eliminate the need for
> windows (A security issue. The scrotes won't be able to see what you
> have inside) and also due to the elimination of windows free up lots
> of wall space for storage.
Don't use plastic roofs if you have security issues, you can cut them with a
knife without making a sound.
>
> All worked for me
Bert Coules
> I'm imagining something like this - gleaned from a search on Google
> images - http://www.hammerhands.co.uk/outbuildings.html
That's pretty close. Here's mine:
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg102/BertCoules/Garage.jpg
That perspective slightly exaggerates the slope of the roof. In fact, the
vertical concrete panels are all the same dimensions and it's the height of
the timber cross-pieces which reduce from the front to the back. The metal
(tinplate?) roof edging strip is actually 90 degree angle and covers the gap
between the tops of the panels and the corrugated sheets:
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg102/BertCoules/Garageinterior.jpg
The side wall in the first photo is the one I'm contemplating opening up.
> Somebody might have already written a monograph on the distinctions
> between the construction of various prefabricated buildings...
I think you'll have baffled a few readers with that, but I appreciated it!
Thanks.
Bert
Bert Coules
> Plastic panels suffer condensation and drip.
What about lining the inside of the roof? Celotex maybe (which would leave
a whole series of airgaps, obviously) or thin polystyrene sheet (Warmalite
is one make, I think) actually shaped right up against the corrugations, if
the material would take it without breaking. Would that work, do you think?
Thanks for the input.
Bert
John Rumm
> converting it for use as a workshop. My main question is this: would it
> be possible to remove several of the 16" wide sections from one of the
> long sides and replace them with a timber frame which could hold a door
> and a window? I'm thinking that this might be easier than cutting two
> separate openings into the existing intact concrete wall.
I know the sort of thing - tall full height panels, about 18" - 24"
wide. Rafters run across the width every so often to take a
traditionally corrugated roof.
> The panels are bolted together near the top and bottom, and are also
> fixed to the wooden beams supporting the (corrugated metal) roof. I
> don't think they're bolted to the concrete base: they appear to be kept
> in place purely by their weight.
Can't see any problem having a few away.
However, to be certain, make up a wide dead man prop[1] - to span the
width of the section you are taking out. Stick that under the ends of
the rafters that will be unsupported before you remove the wall, and
kick the leg in place so that it is taking the weight of the rafter
ends. Then take out the panels and build your frame in.
[1] i.e. a more robust version of this made out of a couple of lengths
of 4x2"
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Dead_man_prop
> Assuming that I could undo or cut through some of the bolts (and release
> the fixings to the roof beam) could say three or four of the panels then
> be removed without affecting the rest of the structure? There would
> still be several panels left standing either side of the gap, and that's
> a huge amount of weight to leave relatively unsupported, even for a
> short time: I'd like to know in advance that everything would be stable
> while I fitted the timber frame.
What's the roof made from?
Bert Coules
> I know the sort of thing - tall full height panels, about 18" - 24" wide.
> Rafters run across the width every so often to take a traditionally
> corrugated roof.
Exactly so.
> Can't see any problem having a few away... However, to be certain, make
> up a wide dead man prop[1] - to span the width of the section you are
> taking out...
Thanks for that. Only one rafter will be affected by the wall removal if I
stick to my current plan, but it's clearly a good idea to support it until
the frame is in.
> What's the roof made from?
Some sort of thin plated steel, as far as I can tell.
Bert
John Rumm
> John Rumm wrote:
>
>> I know the sort of thing - tall full height panels, about 18" - 24"
>> wide. Rafters run across the width every so often to take a
>> traditionally corrugated roof.
>
> Exactly so.
>
>> Can't see any problem having a few away... However, to be certain,
>> make up a wide dead man prop[1] - to span the width of the section you
>> are taking out...
>
> Thanks for that. Only one rafter will be affected by the wall removal if
> I stick to my current plan, but it's clearly a good idea to support it
> until the frame is in.
OK seen your photo now. In which case run a 4x2 along the top of the
concrete panels on the inside. Fix it at both ends to the face of the
the edge ones that will remain. You can then take out the ones between
and it will hold the end of that rafter in place until you get the frame
it.
Its not going to be carrying much weight - mostly itself a a bit of tin
roof that will me mostly supported anyway by the looks of it.
>
>> What's the roof made from?
>
> Some sort of thin plated steel, as far as I can tell.
>
> Bert
>
Bert Coules
> OK seen your photo now. In which case run a 4x2 along the top of the
> concrete panels on the inside. Fix it at both ends to the face of the the
> edge ones that will remain. You can then take out the ones between and it
> will hold the end of that rafter in place until you get the frame in.
Thanks for the thought: I had wondered about that. But I rather think that
the 4x2 will obstruct the removing of the panels, which will have to be
tilted inwards at the top: they can't tip outwards because the angled
roof-capping strip is in the way. Unless they could moved inwards at the
bottom end first, and that's surely not the ideal way to handle something
that weighty.
So perhaps a single prop to support the one central rafter is the way to go.
Bert
fred
> "fred" <tpmcc...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Plastic coated not plastic. Double skinned with an insulation inter
layer as used on 99% of industrial units built in the last 20 years or
so. I used them on my workshop which is now about 15 years old and
have NEVER suffered from condensation drips from the roof.
Condensation is caused by a temperature and humidity differential.
Doesn't have to be cold. If you lived in a humid client you would get
condensation despite the heat. The best answer is good ventilation to
allow the inside and outside temperature/humidity to equalise..
>
> The easiest way to get lots of condensation is to have a layer of snow on
> the roof and a day of warm weather creating nice moist air in the shed.
>
> The usual way they stop the condensation dripping is to coat the surface
> with a fibrous stuff that holds onto the water until its warm enough to
> evaporate. The latest Compton garage steel roofs are coated like this.
>
> >You want to be careful you don't replace a corrugated metal
> > roof with anything much heavier than the original. The market for
> > these pre-fabricated garages was quite intense so they didn't tend to
> > over spec things like roof support structures.
>
> they certainly have on mine.. thick steel, trussed rafters.
>
>
>
> > Also, if replacing the roof consider inserting full length translucent
> > panels. They make the inside very bright, eliminate the need for
> > windows (A security issue. The scrotes won't be able to see what you
> > have inside) and also due to the elimination of windows free up lots
> > of wall space for storage.
>
> Don't use plastic roofs if you have security issues, you can cut them with a
> knife without making a sound.
>
Double skin rooflights as suggested are manufactured from fibre glass
which you will not cut with a knife. The other point is, if the
scrotes can't see (through a window) what is inside they are unlikely
to climb on to a roof and hacksaw their way through two layers of
fibreglass on the off chance there is anything worth stealing inside.
And then having to go to the trouble of climbing down inside and
passing the stolen items out through the hole in the roof.
Any your average child knows how to cut a glass window without making
a noise.
Paul Mc Cann
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > All worked for me
Bert Coules
> Plastic coated not plastic. Double skinned with an insulation inter
> layer as used on 99% of industrial units built in the last 20 years or
> so. I used them on my workshop which is now about 15 years old and
> have NEVER suffered from condensation drips from the roof.
I'll have a search around. Is there a particular product you'd recommend?
> The best answer is good ventilation to
> allow the inside and outside temperature/humidity to equalise.
That sounds fine for the summer but (literally) not so hot in the winter.
Bert
Bert Coules
today to see just how much effort would be needed to remove (or cut through)
them, I discovered that every single one is rather less than finger tight.
I could remove the entire wall with no tools other than my hands.
Bert
Geo
Yehbut - keep it quiet - you /will/ need to buy some new tools for the
job...
Bert Coules
> Yehbut - keep it quiet - you /will/ need to buy some new tools for the
> job...
Ha! It's true, it's true...
Also, I suspect I'll need some burly assistants. I've never seen one being
put up, but I reckon those concrete panels (6ft x 16") are going to be
pretty weighty.
Bert
marclee...@gmail.com
Marc
harry
> Hi reading this to see if it could help me I've been given a 10x30 garage concrete garage with 16" panels with marley tiled roof which has steel 4x2 box section angled to support roof 28degree pitch .what I want to do is make it 16x20 by rearranging panels and welding extra steel in the truss length to keep the same pitch .What I dont know if the concrete panels will be strong enough to take the extra weight of the roof any input much appreciated.
> Marc
I would have thought it'd be easier to make new trusses.
I did similar, I made up new timber trusses.
Make sure the roofing sheets work out.
I couldn't find any to match the existing.
You could think about using "Corex" or similar as it's lighter and cheaper.