First concrete 3d printed building?

[Adam Aglionby]

Started with a Rep-Rap and a `model` castle

http://www.totalkustom.com/3d-castle-completed.html

and is moving forward impressively, actual machine building things rather than just renderings

http://www.3ders.org/articles/20150909-lewis-grand-hotel-andrey-rudenko-to-develop-worlds-first-3d-printed-hotel.html

[T i m]

On Tue, 9 Feb 2016 12:14:22 -0800 (PST), Adam Aglionby
<ledl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Started with a Rep-Rap and a `model` castle
>
>http://www.totalkustom.com/3d-castle-completed.html

Saw that previously.

>
>and is moving forward impressively, actual machine building things rather than just renderings
>
>http://www.3ders.org/articles/20150909-lewis-grand-hotel-andrey-rudenko-to-develop-worlds-first-3d-printed-hotel.html

Brilliant, well, unless you are a bricklayer of course.

Having built and run a Cartesian 3d printer I can feel every movement
of that concrete printers motions. In fact it seems quite scene in
comparison with our dinky thing.

Even thought the printer frame has to be pretty strong, rigid and
accurate, it's funny how any slight imperfections are normally ironed
out on the next pass (assuming they matter in the first place).

It constantly amazes me re the uses I hear people putting them to.

A mates daughter makes cakes and (currently) buys (hopes to make for
herself soon) 3d printed shape cutters for all sort of cake occasions.

A mate recently bought some new steel framed chairs for his kitchen
and some of the rubber feet were missing. It took me 5 minutes to
measure and draw on the PC ... and maybe an hour and a half to print,
four new feet that he says work better than the originals.

It still seem weird to be able to think of something, draw and print
it and have it in your hand the same morning (like drilling / cutting
jigs and templates, brackets and the like).

I still remember the old days when I had to go down the cold workshop
and file, drill, saw ... ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[Rod Speed]

"T i m" <ne...@spaced.me.uk> wrote in message
news:m1mkbbhvmvkgfhssd...@4ax.com...

How long before you can just print new brat or pet when one gets run over
etc.

Or print a new wife when you've worn the old one out ?

[Graham.]

Do you agree that we need a better word than printer for these
futuristic machines?
Any ideas?




--

Graham.

%Profound_observation%

[T i m]

On Wed, 10 Feb 2016 00:36:10 +0000, Graham. <graham...@mail.com>
wrote:

<snip>

>
>Do you agree that we need a better word than printer for these
>futuristic machines?

Well, I am ok with it because I can understand how the mechanics place
a layer of something using an xy axis, just like most other
(Cartesian, as opposed to Delta) printers do but these also have the z
(height) axis?

>Any ideas?

Well I think the formal name for the process is 'Additive
Manufacturing' but as you say there isn't anything other than plain
'3D printing' (as opposed to 'printing') that people use.

You are right though, I've had to answer the 'I don't understand why
it's called 3D printing because it's not actually printing' comment
quite a few times. I guess it's because they may not know how a 2D
printer works to realise just how close a 3D printer is mechanically
(conceptually)?

In a similar way they don't seem to be aware not all tablets are
'iPads'? 'Yes, I've got a Samsung iPad ...'?

Cheers, T i m

[Rod Speed]

"Graham." <graham...@mail.com> wrote in message
news:ar0lbb1jie87sumg4...@4ax.com...

Sort of, but 3D printer isnt too bad.

> Any ideas?

Fraid not, I'm completely hopeless at that sort of thing.

I can recognise good ones, but am completely hopeless
at inventing new ones. My domain name is the best I
have ever managed, quick and easy, instantly memorable,
no one has ever forgotten what it is, and not already in
use which is a very difficult problem with domain names.

[Adrian]

On Wed, 10 Feb 2016 00:36:10 +0000, Graham. wrote:

> Do you agree that we need a better word than printer for these
> futuristic machines?

Not really. It's pretty much exactly what they're doing, just using
really, really thick ink.

[stuart noble]

Interesting that the local sand in The Philippines includes a proportion
of volcanic ash, which presumably makes it easier to pump through the
machinery. I think they might have trouble with normal sharp sand

[Brian Gaff]

I see, well sure beats the inflatable church...
Brian

"Adam Aglionby" <ledl...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dbdbc928-d24d-41eb...@googlegroups.com...

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please!

[whisky-dave]

Replicator would do me.


I have a theory that stonehenge and the pyramids were 3D printed by aliens :-)

[Chris J Dixon]

stuart noble wrote:

>Interesting that the local sand in The Philippines includes a proportion
>of volcanic ash, which presumably makes it easier to pump through the
>machinery. I think they might have trouble with normal sharp sand

I wonder how strong the structure is? There doesn't seem to be
any reinforcement.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK
ch...@cdixon.me.uk

Plant amazing Acers.

[T i m]

On Wed, 10 Feb 2016 11:16:05 +0000, Chris J Dixon <ch...@cdixon.me.uk>
wrote:

>stuart noble wrote:
>
>>Interesting that the local sand in The Philippines includes a proportion
>>of volcanic ash, which presumably makes it easier to pump through the
>>machinery. I think they might have trouble with normal sharp sand
>
>I wonder how strong the structure is? There doesn't seem to be
>any reinforcement.
>

I was looking at that as well, wondering if they put conventional ties
in between the inner and outer walls (and they could fairly easily),
or, if the materiel used didn't carry moisture when set, they could be
printed in from the bottom up (looking like hollow concrete blocks).

Cheers, T i m

[Dave Plowman (News)]

I'm wondering if they are simply the latest fad. Which may eventually
replace making things in a traditional way - but is still a long way from
doing so, and may never. A bit like battery technology. Constantly being
improved, but still a long way off from storing energy in the same way as
a tank of petrol etc can. But is always just round the corner.

Or LEDs. I still can't buy a plug in LED bulb to truly replace a 150w
tungsten.

The one experience I've had of 3d printers is some clips made for the
parcel shelf on the old Rover. The originals are plastic and break after a
few years. The 3D replacements after a few weeks. I eventually made new
ones from ally plate. Which are far stronger.

--
*I finally got my head together, now my body is falling apart.

Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Syd Rumpo]

The text says "[There was] a large number of stops to install plumbing,
wiring and rebars in the concrete creation."

Cheers
--
Syd

[stuart noble]

On 10/02/2016 11:16, Chris J Dixon wrote:
> stuart noble wrote:
>
>> Interesting that the local sand in The Philippines includes a proportion
>> of volcanic ash, which presumably makes it easier to pump through the
>> machinery. I think they might have trouble with normal sharp sand
>
> I wonder how strong the structure is? There doesn't seem to be
> any reinforcement.
>
> Chris
>

Somewhere it says

"that doesn’t include a large number of stops to install plumbing,
wiring and rebars"

[T i m]

On Wed, 10 Feb 2016 12:20:35 +0000, Syd Rumpo <use...@nononono.co.uk>
wrote:

>On 10/02/2016 12:00, T i m wrote:
>> On Wed, 10 Feb 2016 11:16:05 +0000, Chris J Dixon <ch...@cdixon.me.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> stuart noble wrote:
>>>
>>>> Interesting that the local sand in The Philippines includes a proportion
>>>> of volcanic ash, which presumably makes it easier to pump through the
>>>> machinery. I think they might have trouble with normal sharp sand
>>>
>>> I wonder how strong the structure is? There doesn't seem to be
>>> any reinforcement.
>>>
>> I was looking at that as well, wondering if they put conventional ties
>> in between the inner and outer walls (and they could fairly easily),
>> or, if the materiel used didn't carry moisture when set, they could be
>> printed in from the bottom up (looking like hollow concrete blocks).

>>
>

>The text says "[There was] a large number of stops to install plumbing,
>wiring and rebars in the concrete creation."
>

Well spotted. I remember the pictures, forget the words. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

On Wed, 10 Feb 2016 12:01:24 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
<da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

<snip>

>The one experience I've had of 3d printers is some clips made for the
>parcel shelf on the old Rover. The originals are plastic and break after a
>few years. The 3D replacements after a few weeks. I eventually made new
>ones from ally plate. Which are far stronger.

I'm not sure how PLA (the default 3D printer filament type) fares in
the sunlight yet because I've not had chance to test it but those
things I've printed and tested to destruction seem pretty tough?

And of course there is 3D printing and less than good 3D printing ...

Cheers, T i m

[Theo]

"Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

> I'm wondering if they are simply the latest fad. Which may eventually
> replace making things in a traditional way - but is still a long way from
> doing so, and may never. A bit like battery technology. Constantly being
> improved, but still a long way off from storing energy in the same way as
> a tank of petrol etc can. But is always just round the corner.

The main issue with additive 3D printing is how long it takes. Because of
the need to scan a 3D space, it takes roughly the cube of the resolution.
Until this can be done in parallel, it's going to be limited by how fast the
head can move which is governed by momentum and not something that can be
massively improved.

> Or LEDs. I still can't buy a plug in LED bulb to truly replace a 150w
> tungsten.

That's not far off.

> The one experience I've had of 3d printers is some clips made for the
> parcel shelf on the old Rover. The originals are plastic and break after a
> few years. The 3D replacements after a few weeks. I eventually made new
> ones from ally plate. Which are far stronger.

That suggests a poor choice of material. Like any kind of construction, you
have to understand the materials you use - 3d printing might be unfamiliar
but it is no different. You can 3d print in stainless steel, for instance,
which I suspect would be far stronger. At a cost, of course.

Theo

[Rod Speed]

"whisky-dave" <whisk...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:a7dc74a8-4c3c-4aa4...@googlegroups.com...

But it's not a replicator if it's designed using
a CAD system and only printed the once.

> I have a theory that stonehenge and the
> pyramids were 3D printed by aliens :-)

More fool you.

[Blanco]

"Chris J Dixon" <ch...@cdixon.me.uk> wrote in message
news:gu6mbb9jge5ob2isf...@4ax.com...

> stuart noble wrote:
>
>>Interesting that the local sand in The Philippines includes a proportion
>>of volcanic ash, which presumably makes it easier to pump through the
>>machinery. I think they might have trouble with normal sharp sand
>
> I wonder how strong the structure is? There doesn't seem to be
> any reinforcement.

Yeah, bet it starts cracking pretty quickly.

[dennis@home]

On 10/02/2016 12:01, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> I'm wondering if they are simply the latest fad. Which may eventually
> replace making things in a traditional way - but is still a long way from
> doing so, and may never. A bit like battery technology. Constantly being
> improved, but still a long way off from storing energy in the same way as
> a tank of petrol etc can. But is always just round the corner.
>
> Or LEDs. I still can't buy a plug in LED bulb to truly replace a 150w
> tungsten.

But you could buy a lamp.
Its like many new things, you don't get the benefit if used the old way.

>
> The one experience I've had of 3d printers is some clips made for the
> parcel shelf on the old Rover. The originals are plastic and break after a
> few years. The 3D replacements after a few weeks. I eventually made new
> ones from ally plate. Which are far stronger.
>

Wrong sort of 3D printer.
FFF is never going to be strong in the Z axis.

[Rod Speed]

"Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:554fb47...@davenoise.co.uk...

> I'm wondering if they are simply the latest fad. Which may eventually
> replace making things in a traditional way - but is still a long way from
> doing so, and may never. A bit like battery technology. Constantly being
> improved, but still a long way off from storing energy in the same way as
> a tank of petrol etc can. But is always just round the corner.
>
> Or LEDs. I still can't buy a plug in LED bulb to truly replace a 150w
> tungsten.
>
> The one experience I've had of 3d printers is some clips made for the
> parcel shelf on the old Rover. The originals are plastic and break after a
> few years. The 3D replacements after a few weeks. I eventually made new
> ones from ally plate. Which are far stronger.

The better 3D printers can print metal objects.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <56bb6d23$0$22558$b1db1813$1367...@news.astraweb.com>,

dennis@home <den...@nowhere.invalid> wrote:
> On 10/02/2016 12:01, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> > I'm wondering if they are simply the latest fad. Which may eventually
> > replace making things in a traditional way - but is still a long way
> > from doing so, and may never. A bit like battery technology.
> > Constantly being improved, but still a long way off from storing
> > energy in the same way as a tank of petrol etc can. But is always just
> > round the corner.
> >
> > Or LEDs. I still can't buy a plug in LED bulb to truly replace a 150w
> > tungsten.

> But you could buy a lamp.

If I found one which suited, I might.

> Its like many new things, you don't get the benefit if used the old way.

In other words, it simply doesn't do the same job. Which is important to
some.

> >
> > The one experience I've had of 3d printers is some clips made for the
> > parcel shelf on the old Rover. The originals are plastic and break after a
> > few years. The 3D replacements after a few weeks. I eventually made new
> > ones from ally plate. Which are far stronger.
> >

> Wrong sort of 3D printer.
> FFF is never going to be strong in the Z axis.

The original was simply a lump of plastic. Injection moulding, I'd guess.
If a 3D printer can't make the same and as strong, not much point other
than as a toy.

--
*Black holes are where God divided by zero *

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <di19av...@mid.individual.net>,

Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > The one experience I've had of 3d printers is some clips made for the
> > parcel shelf on the old Rover. The originals are plastic and break
> > after a few years. The 3D replacements after a few weeks. I eventually
> > made new ones from ally plate. Which are far stronger.

> The better 3D printers can print metal objects.

Metal can break too. The usual pot metal one you'd find for this sort of
thing wouldn't be any stonger.

--
*Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it*

[Chris J Dixon]

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

>In article <di19av...@mid.individual.net>,
> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > The one experience I've had of 3d printers is some clips made for the
>> > parcel shelf on the old Rover. The originals are plastic and break
>> > after a few years. The 3D replacements after a few weeks. I eventually
>> > made new ones from ally plate. Which are far stronger.
>
>> The better 3D printers can print metal objects.
>
>Metal can break too. The usual pot metal one you'd find for this sort of
>thing wouldn't be any stonger.

I have had a Panasonic bread maker for some time.

The first part to fail was the plastic catch for the dispenser
tray, so I fashioned a replacement, which was partially
successful.

When the rather abrasive seeded mix I use eventually wore off the
coating on blade and pan, it was better value to get a complete
new unit from ebay.

When the second dispenser latch failed, I came across

<http://www.shapeways.com/model/181321/panasonic-sd253-breadmaker-dispenser-latch.html?li=productBox-search>

Which is just the job. You'd think Panasonic could have done this
themselves.

[Rod Speed]

"Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message

news:554fd54...@davenoise.co.uk...

It can and much better too.

> not much point other than as a toy.

And when it can it isnt.

[Rod Speed]

"Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message

news:554fd56...@davenoise.co.uk...

> In article <di19av...@mid.individual.net>,
> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > The one experience I've had of 3d printers is some clips made for the
>> > parcel shelf on the old Rover. The originals are plastic and break
>> > after a few years. The 3D replacements after a few weeks. I eventually
>> > made new ones from ally plate. Which are far stronger.
>
>> The better 3D printers can print metal objects.
>
> Metal can break too.

But with something that was originally done in plastics, its very
unlikely that when done in metal properly that it will break.

> The usual pot metal one you'd find for this sort of
> thing wouldn't be any stonger.

Metal 3D printers don’t use pot metal.

[tabb...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, 10 February 2016 16:11:06 UTC, Theo wrote:
> "Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

> > I'm wondering if they are simply the latest fad. Which may eventually
> > replace making things in a traditional way - but is still a long way from
> > doing so, and may never. A bit like battery technology. Constantly being
> > improved, but still a long way off from storing energy in the same way as
> > a tank of petrol etc can. But is always just round the corner.
>
> The main issue with additive 3D printing is how long it takes. Because of
> the need to scan a 3D space, it takes roughly the cube of the resolution.
> Until this can be done in parallel, it's going to be limited by how fast the
> head can move which is governed by momentum and not something that can be
> massively improved.

3d printed houses are already many times faster than brick & block, and there's plenty of scope for speed increase both in laying down cement mix and in setup times.

A real step change is just starting to happen. The houses we inhabit now will seem very poorly designed & bland in a decade or 2's time.


NT

[tabb...@gmail.com]

Some can. You used the wrong plastic, as well as copying a flawed design.


NT

[Rod Speed]

<tabb...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ff29d9fe-ee09-4b75...@googlegroups.com...

I doubt it.

> The houses we inhabit now will seem very poorly
> designed & bland in a decade or 2's time.

They always do.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <1baa4aca-9759-4e0c...@googlegroups.com>,

<tabb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > The original was simply a lump of plastic. Injection moulding, I'd
> > guess. If a 3D printer can't make the same and as strong, not much
> > point other than as a toy.

> Some can. You used the wrong plastic, as well as copying a flawed design.

I didn't make them. They were made commercially. By a specialist in such
things. Given what they cost, should have been the strongest plastic on
the market.

The design is indeed flawed. But if it gave a few years use in practice
before breaking but much shorter with the printed one it's fair to say it
wasn't as well made.

--
*Why is it considered necessary to screw down the lid of a coffin?

[Rod Speed]

Dave Plowman (News) <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote

> <tabb...@gmail.com> wrote

>>> The original was simply a lump of plastic. Injection moulding,
>>> I'd guess. If a 3D printer can't make the same and as strong,
>>> not much point other than as a toy.

>> Some can. You used the wrong plastic, as well as copying a flawed design.

> I didn't make them. They were made commercially. By a specialist in such
> things.

Who clearly used the wrong plastic for that particular item
or was too stupid to realise that he should have used metal.

> Given what they cost, should have been the strongest plastic on the
> market.

Doesn’t mean that he used that, or that it is adequate for the design.

> The design is indeed flawed. But if it gave a few years
> use in practice before breaking but much shorter with
> the printed one it's fair to say it wasn't as well made.

Yes, but that may just be because currently plastic isnt what
should have been used for that part when it is 3D printed.

[tabb...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, 11 February 2016 03:26:13 UTC, Rod Speed wrote:
> Dave Plowman (News) <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote

> > <tabbypurr> wrote

this is scary, Rod's correct.


NT

[dennis@home]

On 11/02/2016 00:36, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> In article <1baa4aca-9759-4e0c...@googlegroups.com>,
> <tabb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> The original was simply a lump of plastic. Injection moulding, I'd
>>> guess. If a 3D printer can't make the same and as strong, not much
>>> point other than as a toy.
>
>> Some can. You used the wrong plastic, as well as copying a flawed design.
>
> I didn't make them. They were made commercially. By a specialist in such
> things. Given what they cost, should have been the strongest plastic on
> the market.

Just because they are expensive doesn't mean they aren't made cheaply.
You do not get what you pay for if there is no competition.

>
> The design is indeed flawed. But if it gave a few years use in practice
> before breaking but much shorter with the printed one it's fair to say it
> wasn't as well made.
>

With FFF in plastic you may have to look at the design and change it to
take into account the weakness in the Z axis. If you can't then you need
to look elsewhere.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <56bc549f$0$63578$b1db1813$df80...@news.astraweb.com>,

dennis@home <den...@nowhere.invalid> wrote:
> > I didn't make them. They were made commercially. By a specialist in
> > such things. Given what they cost, should have been the strongest
> > plastic on the market.

> Just because they are expensive doesn't mean they aren't made cheaply.
> You do not get what you pay for if there is no competition.

There is competition. This firm was chosen (not by me) as it is a market
leader in this sort of work.

--
*I want it all and I want it delivered

[T i m]

On Thu, 11 Feb 2016 09:30:08 +0000, dennis@home
<den...@nowhere.invalid> wrote:

<snip>

>With FFF in plastic you may have to look at the design and change it to
>take into account the weakness in the Z axis. If you can't then you need
>to look elsewhere.

What weakness in the Z axis?

If the printer is configured and running properly then each new layer
should fully fuse itself to the previous layer? We extrude PLA at
around 200 DegC and using a heated bed (60 DegC).

Don't get me wrong, I have had faulty prints where the nozzle has say
partially blocked for a few seconds, the size / consistency of the
extrusion has been compromised and so a fault is created affecting the
Z axis but that's a 'manufacturing' not 'materials' fault.

I'll print a couple of solid beams and see how accurately I can test
them for bending / delaminating failure.

Cheers, T i m

[whisky-dave]

what has only printed once got to do with it ?

got two of these in my lab, earlier models anyway.

http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/products/8754711/?grossPrice=Y&cm_mmc=UK-PLA-_-google-_-PLA_UK_EN_Computing_And_Peripherals-_-3D_Printing_And_Scanning&mkwid=s5PaDqrLW_dc|pcrid|88057058523|pkw||pmt||prd|8754711&gclid=CJPB-_nu78oCFc0y0wodHgkAKg

and one of these downstairs

Objet30 Prime

[Adam Aglionby]

On Wednesday, February 10, 2016 at 8:35:25 AM UTC, stuart noble wrote:
> On 10/02/2016 08:07, Adrian wrote:

> > On Wed, 10 Feb 2016 00:36:10 +0000, Graham. wrote:
> >
> >> Do you agree that we need a better word than printer for these
> >> futuristic machines?
> >

> > Not really. It's pretty much exactly what they're doing, just using
> > really, really thick ink.

> >
>
> Interesting that the local sand in The Philippines includes a proportion
> of volcanic ash, which presumably makes it easier to pump through the
> machinery. I think they might have trouble with normal sharp sand

His first project was in the U.S., pumped concrete and continuous pour with moving forms is around already.

[Adam Aglionby]

Unfortunately none of the current prinatble plastics appear to like UV exposure , aprt from post cure

https://www.3dhubs.com/materials

[The Natural Philosopher]

I think the view to take is that robotiic deposition rather than robotic
removal (as in CNC mills and lathes) is the next stage, what you deposit
and how, is rather a wide range of possibilities.

I can imagine a robot with pipes and arms that yu feed sand cement water
and piles of bricks into that lays ten thousand bricks in a day.



--
A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on
its shoes.

[Rod Speed]

"Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:5550325...@davenoise.co.uk...

> In article <56bc549f$0$63578$b1db1813$df80...@news.astraweb.com>,
> dennis@home <den...@nowhere.invalid> wrote:
>> > I didn't make them. They were made commercially. By a specialist in
>> > such things. Given what they cost, should have been the strongest
>> > plastic on the market.
>
>> Just because they are expensive doesn't mean they aren't made cheaply.
>> You do not get what you pay for if there is no competition.
>
> There is competition. This firm was chosen (not by me) as it is a market
> leader in this sort of work.

Easy to claim. If what they sell only lasted a couple
of weeks, they don’t be a market leader for long.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <di41h2...@mid.individual.net>,

There are lots of different types of plastic. And lots of different ways
of forming it into a shape.

To assume 3d printed stuff is going to be the equal of all of them simply
says you've been conned like everyone else.

--
*Young at heart -- slightly older in other places

[dennis@home]

On 11/02/2016 11:05, T i m wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Feb 2016 09:30:08 +0000, dennis@home
> <den...@nowhere.invalid> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> With FFF in plastic you may have to look at the design and change it to
>> take into account the weakness in the Z axis. If you can't then you need
>> to look elsewhere.
>
> What weakness in the Z axis?

You can never get as good a bond when laying hot plastic ontop of cold
plastic as you get from the extrusion.
Try printing a tall rod vs one printed on its side.
You will find one has a higher tensile strength than the other in the
long axis.

>
> If the printer is configured and running properly then each new layer
> should fully fuse itself to the previous layer? We extrude PLA at
> around 200 DegC and using a heated bed (60 DegC).
>
> Don't get me wrong, I have had faulty prints where the nozzle has say
> partially blocked for a few seconds, the size / consistency of the
> extrusion has been compromised and so a fault is created affecting the
> Z axis but that's a 'manufacturing' not 'materials' fault.
>
> I'll print a couple of solid beams and see how accurately I can test
> them for bending / delaminating failure.

O, that's what i just suggested above.

[Rod Speed]

"whisky-dave" <whisk...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:b33ac599-1720-4e23...@googlegroups.com...

Its clearly not REPLICATING anything if it only happens the once.

> got two of these in my lab, earlier models anyway.
>
> http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/products/8754711/?grossPrice=Y&cm_mmc=UK-PLA-_-google-_-PLA_UK_EN_Computing_And_Peripherals-_-3D_Printing_And_Scanning&mkwid=s5PaDqrLW_dc|pcrid|88057058523|pkw||pmt||prd|8754711&gclid=CJPB-_nu78oCFc0y0wodHgkAKg
>
> and one of these downstairs
>
> Objet30 Prime

Irrelevant to what a REPLICATOR does.

[T i m]

On Thu, 11 Feb 2016 20:19:49 +0000, dennis@home
<den...@nowhere.invalid> wrote:

>On 11/02/2016 11:05, T i m wrote:
>> On Thu, 11 Feb 2016 09:30:08 +0000, dennis@home
>> <den...@nowhere.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> With FFF in plastic you may have to look at the design and change it to
>>> take into account the weakness in the Z axis. If you can't then you need
>>> to look elsewhere.
>>
>> What weakness in the Z axis?
>
>You can never get as good a bond when laying hot plastic ontop of cold
>plastic as you get from the extrusion.

Maybe not, but it only needs to be 'good enough' for the required use.
Further, the already printed plastic isn't 'cold' as the whole job is
sat on a heated bed. The trick is to leave enough heat in the job to
keep the temperature differential between the plastic being 'hot
enough to extrude' and 'cool enough to maintain stability' once
extruded.

If you were to print a 25 x 2mm disk, kill the job and lift the job
off the bed whilst hot (with a blade), you could easily fold the disk
in half with your fingers.

With taller thinner jobs you often have to run cooling fans because
even though the heated bed can now be a reasonable distance away, the
rate at which you are laying filament on the top at <200 DegC means
the job can stay so hot it can move / distort, just from the 'drag' of
the filament.

>Try printing a tall rod vs one printed on its side.

I have / do. ;-)

>You will find one has a higher tensile strength than the other in the
>long axis.

Of course. But let's say one is 90% of the other and the item 200%
stronger than it needs to be?

>
>>
>> If the printer is configured and running properly then each new layer
>> should fully fuse itself to the previous layer? We extrude PLA at
>> around 200 DegC and using a heated bed (60 DegC).
>>
>> Don't get me wrong, I have had faulty prints where the nozzle has say
>> partially blocked for a few seconds, the size / consistency of the
>> extrusion has been compromised and so a fault is created affecting the
>> Z axis but that's a 'manufacturing' not 'materials' fault.
>>
>> I'll print a couple of solid beams and see how accurately I can test
>> them for bending / delaminating failure.
>
>O, that's what i just suggested above.

I have printed many object that have reasonable length in the Z axis
(sometimes longer than the other two) and never had any obvious
weakness in that direction.

In fact we have dropped heavy assemblies, stepper motors and linear
rails that were joined together by plastic printed connectors and
components and anything thin that has ever broken has always broken
across the job with no regard to the thought that it was of
'laminated' construction.

e.g. The inter-layer bond is (to all intents and purposes) as strong
as the material itself.

Cheers, T i m

p.s. Do you have or use a 3D printer and if so, what model?

[T i m]

Yes, that was the only thing I was unsure about, especially
considering Daves parcel shelf clips (presumably exposed to strong UV
through the window)? ;-(

I'll have to make something (in PLA) that would expose any weakness to
UV and get it outside. Hanging basket bracket? ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[Rod Speed]

"Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message

news:55505c6...@davenoise.co.uk...

> In article <di41h2...@mid.individual.net>,
> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>> "Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:5550325...@davenoise.co.uk...
>> > In article <56bc549f$0$63578$b1db1813$df80...@news.astraweb.com>,
>> > dennis@home <den...@nowhere.invalid> wrote:
>> >> > I didn't make them. They were made commercially. By a specialist in
>> >> > such things. Given what they cost, should have been the strongest
>> >> > plastic on the market.
>> >
>> >> Just because they are expensive doesn't mean they aren't made cheaply.
>> >> You do not get what you pay for if there is no competition.
>> >
>> > There is competition. This firm was chosen (not by me) as it is a
>> > market leader in this sort of work.
>
>> Easy to claim. If what they sell only lasted a couple
>> of weeks, they don't be a market leader for long.
>
> There are lots of different types of plastic. And lots
> of different ways of forming it into a shape.

And when that one they did only lasted weeks, they clearly
don't have a fucking clue about what they are doing.

> To assume 3d printed stuff is going to be the equal of all of them

Never assumed anything of the sort. That was JUST a comment
on your stupid claim that that operation is a market leader.

[T i m]

On Thu, 11 Feb 2016 07:25:26 -0800 (PST), Adam Aglionby
<ledl...@gmail.com> wrote:

><snip>

>Unfortunately none of the current prinatble plastics appear to like UV exposure , aprt from post cure
>
>https://www.3dhubs.com/materials

I just found this (FWIW):

http://iepas.net/using-pla-for-long-term-outdoor-applications/

"As a side note, PLA is referenced as considerably UV resistant."

Cheers, T i m

[dennis@home]

I had a play with one nearly two years ago, it wasn't mine and I don't
know what it was.

I don't think it had a heated bed, quite a few don't now.
Isn't the heated bed to stop uneven cooling causing the print to curl
and lift from the bed.

I keep saying I am going to buy/build one but TOH says No!!

[dennis@home]

On 11/02/2016 23:18, T i m wrote:

>
> Yes, that was the only thing I was unsure about, especially
> considering Daves parcel shelf clips (presumably exposed to strong UV
> through the window)? ;-(

Most cars don't let much UV in, the trim would suffer if they did.

[whisky-dave]

So what does a replicator do ?

[T i m]

As I know from my Sierra dash that was all cracked up?

Cheers, T i m

[Adam Aglionby]

Don`t you hate coming across old forum posts where the trail goes cold, we are going to test PLA UV exposure from 2013 then

http://iepas.net/category/mma/3d-printing/

Really interesting article and super use of the technology but they printed the long term parts in ABS. not sure of difference between 3D hubs simulated ABS and ABS filament FDM printing.

Only plastic that 3D hubs are listing as UV resistant is SLS printed nylon.

[T i m]

On Fri, 12 Feb 2016 13:10:54 +0000, dennis@home
<den...@nowhere.invalid> wrote:

<snip>

>> p.s. Do you have or use a 3D printer and if so, what model?
>>
>
>I had a play with one nearly two years ago, it wasn't mine and I don't
>know what it was.

Ok.

>
>I don't think it had a heated bed, quite a few don't now.

And quite a few do, even when printing PLA and especially when
printing nearly every other material.

>Isn't the heated bed to stop uneven cooling causing the print to curl
>and lift from the bed.

That's partly the reason and the alternative is to use some other way
of 'sticking' the job to the bed, like hair spray, diluted PVA, double
sided tape etc. However, none of the 'alternatives' have the advantage
of keeping some heat in the job and the material 'plastic'.

>
>I keep saying I am going to buy/build one but TOH says No!!

And you do as you are told? <shrug>

Cheers, T i m

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <di4khl...@mid.individual.net>,

Thanks for confirming you don't understand the term. As with so much else.

--
*ATHEISM IS A NON-PROPHET ORGANIZATION.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <mirrbbplk5re7u4d9...@4ax.com>,

T i m <ne...@spaced.me.uk> wrote:
> >Most cars don't let much UV in, the trim would suffer if they did.

> As I know from my Sierra dash that was all cracked up?

Old Californian UK cars. No rust but ruined interior.

--
*Why is it that doctors call what they do "practice"?

[T i m]

On Fri, 12 Feb 2016 06:44:21 -0800 (PST), Adam Aglionby

<ledl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, February 11, 2016 at 11:59:01 PM UTC, T i m wrote:
>> On Thu, 11 Feb 2016 07:25:26 -0800 (PST), Adam Aglionby
>> <ledl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> ><snip>
>>
>> >Unfortunately none of the current prinatble plastics appear to like UV exposure , aprt from post cure
>> >
>> >https://www.3dhubs.com/materials
>>
>> I just found this (FWIW):
>>
>> http://iepas.net/using-pla-for-long-term-outdoor-applications/
>>
>> "As a side note, PLA is referenced as considerably UV resistant."
>>
>> Cheers, T i m
>
>Don`t you hate coming across old forum posts where the trail goes cold, we are going to test PLA UV exposure from 2013 then
>
>http://iepas.net/category/mma/3d-printing/

;-)

>
>Really interesting article and super use of the technology but they printed the long term parts in ABS. not sure of difference between 3D hubs simulated ABS and ABS filament FDM printing.

No, nor PLA as typically used for 3D printing and 'PLA fibers' as
analysed fairly comprehensively here:

http://jimluntllc.com/pdfs/polylactic_fibers.pdf

>
>Only plastic that 3D hubs are listing as UV resistant is SLS printed nylon.

I don't know if / how it would ... and it would defeat the object to
some degree but I wonder if it (a 3d printed object used outside) was
painted with a UV protective paint would help? Like many cars that had
fibreglass panels from the factory tended to last better than the
gelcoat / self coloured ones?

Cheers, T i m

[Adam Aglionby]

On Friday, February 12, 2016 at 4:13:38 PM UTC, T i m wrote:
>>>snipped<<<

> No, nor PLA as typically used for 3D printing and 'PLA fibers' as
> analysed fairly comprehensively here:
>
> http://jimluntllc.com/pdfs/polylactic_fibers.pdf

Thing have discovered experimenting with PCL, AKA Polymorph, moulding not 3D printing , is that it will take enormous amounts of filler.PCL mixed with marble dust is used for short run hydraulic press tools.

PLA noodle for printing comes in all sorts of flavours, so shares its lower melting temp sisters ability to take a lot of filling.

http://www.3domusa.com/shop/buzzed-beer-filament/

Another refernce saying that PLA is UV resistant

http://www.fibersource.com/f-tutor/pla.htm

Interesting thing when looking up PLA is all the research seems to have started in last 5 years or so.

> >
> >Only plastic that 3D hubs are listing as UV resistant is SLS printed nylon.
>
> I don't know if / how it would ... and it would defeat the object to
> some degree but I wonder if it (a 3d printed object used outside) was
> painted with a UV protective paint would help? Like many cars that had
> fibreglass panels from the factory tended to last better than the
> gelcoat / self coloured ones?
>
> Cheers, T i m

Wondering if correct choice of filler could help outdoor durability. Like the `space dust` used on flat roofs in sunny zones of the world.

One for Dennis , annealing PLA to increase strength, is it done normally at all to bake a plastic 3D print to anneal it?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21316612

[T i m]

On Fri, 12 Feb 2016 09:26:45 -0800 (PST), Adam Aglionby
<ledl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, February 12, 2016 at 4:13:38 PM UTC, T i m wrote:
>>>>snipped<<<
>
>> No, nor PLA as typically used for 3D printing and 'PLA fibers' as
>> analysed fairly comprehensively here:
>>
>> http://jimluntllc.com/pdfs/polylactic_fibers.pdf
>
>Thing have discovered experimenting with PCL, AKA Polymorph, moulding not 3D printing , is that it will take enormous amounts of filler.PCL mixed with marble dust is used for short run hydraulic press tools.

That must be tough even if only for short runs.

>
>PLA noodle for printing comes in all sorts of flavours, so shares its lower melting temp sisters ability to take a lot of filling.
>
>http://www.3domusa.com/shop/buzzed-beer-filament/

I'll drink to that. ;-)

>
>Another refernce saying that PLA is UV resistant
>
>http://www.fibersource.com/f-tutor/pla.htm

Yeah, it certainly seem to be more 'UV resistant' than not.

>
>Interesting thing when looking up PLA is all the research seems to have started in last 5 years or so.

I think this whole field is still quite new. You seem to get the core
stuff pretty quickly but the details get filled in later on.

It seems to be where, or maybe a bit later than when I joined the home
computer scene.

>
>
>> >
>> >Only plastic that 3D hubs are listing as UV resistant is SLS printed nylon.
>>
>> I don't know if / how it would ... and it would defeat the object to
>> some degree but I wonder if it (a 3d printed object used outside) was
>> painted with a UV protective paint would help? Like many cars that had
>> fibreglass panels from the factory tended to last better than the
>> gelcoat / self coloured ones?
>>
>

>Wondering if correct choice of filler could help outdoor durability. Like the `space dust` used on flat roofs in sunny zones of the world.

It's possible I guess. 'Doping' to bias it's characteristics for
specific roles.

>
>One for Dennis , annealing PLA to increase strength, is it done normally at all to bake a plastic 3D print to anneal it?
>
>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21316612

I think many solid materials, even those 'poured' can often appreciate
that sort of post creation treatment.

Cheers, T i m

p.s. If Dave's parcel shelf brackets are simple in design (and easy to
swap out) I'd be interested to print him some and see how they fare?

[tabb...@gmail.com]

On Friday, 12 February 2016 15:33:53 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> In article <mirrbbplk5re7u4d9...@4ax.com>,
> T i m <ne...@spaced.me.uk> wrote:
> > >Most cars don't let much UV in, the trim would suffer if they did.
>
> > As I know from my Sierra dash that was all cracked up?
>
> Old Californian UK cars. No rust but ruined interior.

Puzzled by 'Californian UK cars'


NT

[dennis@home]

On 12/02/2016 17:26, Adam Aglionby wrote:

> One for Dennis , annealing PLA to increase strength, is it done normally at all to bake a plastic 3D print to anneal it?

I don't see many printers doing it automatically unless a heated bed counts.

I dare say some people put the parts in the oven.

Do you have access to the paper to see what they mean by annealing?

[Rod Speed]

"whisky-dave" <whisk...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:cef86749-5d65-4c53...@googlegroups.com...

Replicates stuff, stupid.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <43663356-2d13-4227...@googlegroups.com>,

Old cars in a dry but hot area tend to survive well in some ways. ie, the
bodies don't rot away. But the interior - plastics etc - self destructs in
the sun. In the UK, it's not uncommon to find an absolutely rotten body
with a decent interior.

I mentioned Californian UK cars as it's a decent source of some older UK
cars like MGs which were exported in quite large numbers to there.

--
*INDECISION is the key to FLEXIBILITY *

[Adam Aglionby]

Not the original paper, but heres some recent stuff with home oven method ;-)

`With temperatures ranging from 170 to 200
F and times ranging from 10 to 60 minutes, over 100 samples were tested`

` overall results from the experiment showed very little affect from the annealing process`

https://conservancy.umn.edu/bitstream/handle/11299/169793/RosplockM.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

[Rod Speed]

"Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message

news:5550ce9...@davenoise.co.uk...

> In article <di4khl...@mid.individual.net>,
> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > There are lots of different types of plastic. And lots
>> > of different ways of forming it into a shape.
>
>> And when that one they did only lasted weeks, they clearly
>> don't have a fucking clue about what they are doing.
>
>> > To assume 3d printed stuff is going to be the equal of all of them
>
>> Never assumed anything of the sort. That was JUST a comment
>> on your stupid claim that that operation is a market leader.
>
> Thanks for confirming you don't understand the term.

You never could bullshit your way out of a wet paper bag.

[F Murtz]

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 11/02/16 15:25, Adam Aglionby wrote:
>> On Wednesday, February 10, 2016 at 1:13:22 PM UTC, T i m wrote:
>>> On Wed, 10 Feb 2016 12:01:24 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
>>> <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>> The one experience I've had of 3d printers is some clips made for the
>>>> parcel shelf on the old Rover. The originals are plastic and break
>>>> after a
>>>> few years. The 3D replacements after a few weeks. I eventually made new
>>>> ones from ally plate. Which are far stronger.
>>>
>>> I'm not sure how PLA (the default 3D printer filament type) fares in
>>> the sunlight yet because I've not had chance to test it but those
>>> things I've printed and tested to destruction seem pretty tough?
>>>
>>> And of course there is 3D printing and less than good 3D printing ...
>>>
>>> Cheers, T i m
>>

>> Unfortunately none of the current prinatble plastics appear to like UV
>> exposure , aprt from post cure
>>
>> https://www.3dhubs.com/materials
>>

> I think the view to take is that robotiic deposition rather than robotic
> removal (as in CNC mills and lathes) is the next stage, what you deposit
> and how, is rather a wide range of possibilities.
>
> I can imagine a robot with pipes and arms that yu feed sand cement water
> and piles of bricks into that lays ten thousand bricks in a day.
>
>
>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Khb5cIq_mO0

[Rod Speed]

<tabb...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:43663356-2d13-4227...@googlegroups.com...

He means cars made in Britain
which ended up in California.

[Rod Speed]

"F Murtz" <hag...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:56be9baa$0$19808$c3e8da3$3a1a...@news.astraweb.com...

Bit primitive having the apes stuffing the bricks into the top of it.

[Adam Aglionby]

On Friday, February 12, 2016 at 10:44:45 PM UTC, dennis@home wrote:

Injection rather than printed parts with a more accurate oven ;-)

http://www.4spepro.org/view.php?article=005392-2014-03-28

and depends on your blend of PLA, high temp annealable

http://www.proto-pasta.com/collections/bulk/products/high-temp-pla-v2-0