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Asbestos panels on doors
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Murmansk
Jan 15, 2014, 1:55:58 PM1/15/14
to
A friend of mine has bought a flat on the top floor of a large Victorian house.
All the doors are original, but have been covered on one side with what turns out to be asbestos, to make them into fire doors.
We want to remove the asbestos but retain the doors. One company quoted £2,000 to remove the 4 doors, take them away and bring them back without the asbestos. Another quoted £250 to remove the doors and dispose of them at the tip. Another said it was not possible to remove the doors and then take off the asbestos as the doors would be classed as "contaminated".
In practice we'll probably have new fire doors fitted but I wondered what opinion is about the above?
We'd presumably have had to put some form of modern sheeting back on the original doors to make them into fire doors, and they looked horrible, so new doors would at least look a lot better.
All the doors are original, but have been covered on one side with what turns out to be asbestos, to make them into fire doors.
We want to remove the asbestos but retain the doors. One company quoted £2,000 to remove the 4 doors, take them away and bring them back without the asbestos. Another quoted £250 to remove the doors and dispose of them at the tip. Another said it was not possible to remove the doors and then take off the asbestos as the doors would be classed as "contaminated".
In practice we'll probably have new fire doors fitted but I wondered what opinion is about the above?
We'd presumably have had to put some form of modern sheeting back on the original doors to make them into fire doors, and they looked horrible, so new doors would at least look a lot better.
meow...@care2.com
Jan 15, 2014, 3:04:41 PM1/15/14
to
Maybe put the original doors in the attic, they may be wanted one day
NT
Murmansk
Jan 15, 2014, 3:59:42 PM1/15/14
to
>>> You can legally remove it yourself, double bag it and take it to the tip. Wear a suitable mask at least, and dont break the stuff unnecessarily.
Maybe put the original doors in the attic, they may be wanted one day <<<
Bob Minchin
Jan 15, 2014, 4:16:40 PM1/15/14
to
Murmansk wrote:
> I want nothing to do with it,
Well just pay loads of money unnecessarily to the scaremongering firms then.
> I want nothing to do with it,
chris French
Jan 15, 2014, 4:35:44 PM1/15/14
to
In message <2a51b33b-c2f1-4d80...@googlegroups.com>,
meow...@care2.com writes
Our LA has special rules about householders and disposing of asbestos
cement products.
You can get special bags from them (for free IIRC - and big enough to
get an 8x4 sheet in)), and then you need to take them to one of the
waste transfer stations, not just any old local waste/recycling centre.
Where they have a special skip for it.
--
Chris French
meow...@care2.com writes
cement products.
You can get special bags from them (for free IIRC - and big enough to
get an 8x4 sheet in)), and then you need to take them to one of the
waste transfer stations, not just any old local waste/recycling centre.
Where they have a special skip for it.
--
Chris French
Tim Watts
Jan 15, 2014, 4:45:44 PM1/15/14
to
On Wednesday 15 January 2014 21:35 chris French wrote in uk.d-i-y:
> Our LA has special rules about householders and disposing of asbestos
> cement products.
>
> You can get special bags from them (for free IIRC - and big enough to
> get an 8x4 sheet in)), and then you need to take them to one of the
> waste transfer stations, not just any old local waste/recycling
> centre. Where they have a special skip for it.
Our LA says double bag it yourself then take it to any dump that has an
> Our LA has special rules about householders and disposing of asbestos
> cement products.
>
> You can get special bags from them (for free IIRC - and big enough to
> get an 8x4 sheet in)), and then you need to take them to one of the
> waste transfer stations, not just any old local waste/recycling
> centre. Where they have a special skip for it.
asbestos skip (most of the larger ones, perhaps 1/3 of all dumps).
Don't even have to ring ahead...
--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/
http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal
coverage
Peter Parry
Jan 15, 2014, 5:17:46 PM1/15/14
to
On Wed, 15 Jan 2014 10:55:58 -0800 (PST), Murmansk
<stai...@gmail.com> wrote:
>All the doors are original, but have been covered on one side with what turns out to be asbestos, to make them into fire doors.
Is it Asbestos or Asbestos cement sheets? The probability is that it
<stai...@gmail.com> wrote:
>All the doors are original, but have been covered on one side with what turns out to be asbestos, to make them into fire doors.
is Asbestos cement (very hard), if so the risk is very small and it
does not require a specialist to remove it. �250 to throw the doors
away is high but not far off. The other two quotes are silly but
unfortunately not unusual, the asbestos removal mafia plays on
irrational fears to make a problem out of nothing where asbestos
cement is concerned.
Scott M
Jan 15, 2014, 5:17:54 PM1/15/14
to
And then make sure you never deal with MDF as the dust from that is more
likely to give you lung problems than any amount of rigid asbestos sheeting.
--
Scott
Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?
fred
Jan 15, 2014, 5:20:44 PM1/15/14
to
In article <7865acb1-1138-400a...@googlegroups.com>,
Murmansk <stai...@gmail.com> writes
You've been on this group for god knows how long and you've never read
one of the threads that tell the true story about the (minimal) risks
involved in handling and removing asbestos cement boards?
Releasing fibres? Releasing fibres set in cement? Think about it, even
if you were to take a hammer to these boards, your fibres will be
attached to heavy (relatively speaking) crumbs of cement and not mobile
in air. Add to that reasonable precautions of taking doors off at the
hinges and working outside with the boards wetted down then the risk is
so close to zero as to be insignificant. Yes you wear a filter mask, yes
you wear a disposable paper boiler suit but it is by no means a big
deal.
For wrapped disposal, search your local authority website for their
procedures or do a google groups on asbestos cement in this group and
the normal procedures will fall out. Ignore the obvious scaremongering
twats.
--
fred
it's a ba-na-na . . . .
Murmansk <stai...@gmail.com> writes
one of the threads that tell the true story about the (minimal) risks
involved in handling and removing asbestos cement boards?
Releasing fibres? Releasing fibres set in cement? Think about it, even
if you were to take a hammer to these boards, your fibres will be
attached to heavy (relatively speaking) crumbs of cement and not mobile
in air. Add to that reasonable precautions of taking doors off at the
hinges and working outside with the boards wetted down then the risk is
so close to zero as to be insignificant. Yes you wear a filter mask, yes
you wear a disposable paper boiler suit but it is by no means a big
deal.
For wrapped disposal, search your local authority website for their
procedures or do a google groups on asbestos cement in this group and
the normal procedures will fall out. Ignore the obvious scaremongering
twats.
--
fred
it's a ba-na-na . . . .
Onetap
Jan 15, 2014, 5:35:12 PM1/15/14
to
On Wednesday, January 15, 2014 10:20:44 PM UTC, fred wrote:
> You've been on this group for god knows how long and you've never read
>
> one of the threads that tell the true story about the (minimal) risks
>
> involved in handling and removing asbestos cement boards?
>
>
>
> Releasing fibres? Releasing fibres set in cement? Think about it, even
>
> if you were to take a hammer to these boards, your fibres will be
>
> attached to heavy (relatively speaking) crumbs of cement and not mobile
>
> in air. Add to that reasonable precautions of taking doors off at the
>
> hinges and working outside with the boards wetted down then the risk is
>
> so close to zero as to be insignificant. Yes you wear a filter mask, yes
>
> you wear a disposable paper boiler suit but it is by no means a big
>
> deal.
It's fire resisting board. Quite likely Asbestolux or similar asbestos insulating board, which is NOT asbestos cement, does release fibres if bashed about and does contain the blue and brown nastier varieties of asbestos fibres.
> You've been on this group for god knows how long and you've never read
>
> one of the threads that tell the true story about the (minimal) risks
>
> involved in handling and removing asbestos cement boards?
>
>
>
> Releasing fibres? Releasing fibres set in cement? Think about it, even
>
> if you were to take a hammer to these boards, your fibres will be
>
> attached to heavy (relatively speaking) crumbs of cement and not mobile
>
> in air. Add to that reasonable precautions of taking doors off at the
>
> hinges and working outside with the boards wetted down then the risk is
>
> so close to zero as to be insignificant. Yes you wear a filter mask, yes
>
> you wear a disposable paper boiler suit but it is by no means a big
>
> deal.
It was used for garage ceilings, boiler enclosures, etc..
Asbestos cement was used for roofing, sheds, drain pipes, etc..
Get it analysed.
If it's asbestos cement, I'd mask up, wear some disposable overalls, remove it, double-bag it and dispose of it, as above.
If it's Asbestolux, I'd bag the doors up and dump them.
Spot the poster who has (peripheral) asbestos removal experience. There was a lot of it in old boiler rooms.
http://www.richmond.gov.uk/asbestos_fact_sheet.pdf
Nightjar
Jan 15, 2014, 5:48:59 PM1/15/14
to
On 15/01/2014 21:35, chris French wrote:
> In message <2a51b33b-c2f1-4d80...@googlegroups.com>,
> meow...@care2.com writes
>> On Wednesday, January 15, 2014 6:55:58 PM UTC, Murmansk wrote:
>>> A friend of mine has bought a flat on the top floor of a large
>>> Victorian house.
>>> All the doors are original, but have been covered on one side with
>>> what turns out to be asbestos, to make them into fire doors.
>>> We want to remove the asbestos but retain the doors. One company
>>> quoted �2,000 to remove the 4 doors, take them away and bring them
>>> back without the asbestos. Another quoted �250 to remove the doors
>>> and dispose of them at the tip. Another said it was not possible to
>>> remove the doors and then take off the asbestos as the doors would be
>>> classed as "contaminated".
>>> In practice we'll probably have new fire doors fitted but I wondered
>>> what opinion is about the above?
>>> We'd presumably have had to put some form of modern sheeting back on
>>> the original doors to make them into fire doors, and they looked
>>> horrible, so new doors would at least look a lot better.
>>
>> You can legally remove it yourself, double bag it and take it to the
>> tip. Wear a suitable mask at least, and dont break the stuff
>> unnecessarily.
>>
>
> Our LA has special rules about householders and disposing of asbestos
> cement products....
> In message <2a51b33b-c2f1-4d80...@googlegroups.com>,
> meow...@care2.com writes
>> On Wednesday, January 15, 2014 6:55:58 PM UTC, Murmansk wrote:
>>> A friend of mine has bought a flat on the top floor of a large
>>> Victorian house.
>>> All the doors are original, but have been covered on one side with
>>> what turns out to be asbestos, to make them into fire doors.
>>> We want to remove the asbestos but retain the doors. One company
>>> quoted �2,000 to remove the 4 doors, take them away and bring them
>>> back without the asbestos. Another quoted �250 to remove the doors
>>> and dispose of them at the tip. Another said it was not possible to
>>> remove the doors and then take off the asbestos as the doors would be
>>> classed as "contaminated".
>>> In practice we'll probably have new fire doors fitted but I wondered
>>> what opinion is about the above?
>>> We'd presumably have had to put some form of modern sheeting back on
>>> the original doors to make them into fire doors, and they looked
>>> horrible, so new doors would at least look a lot better.
>>
>> You can legally remove it yourself, double bag it and take it to the
>> tip. Wear a suitable mask at least, and dont break the stuff
>> unnecessarily.
>>
>
> Our LA has special rules about householders and disposing of asbestos
The material used to fireproof doors is likely to be asbestos insulation
board, rather than asbestos cement. As that is quite likely to contain
brown asbestos, it is something that needs to be dealt with by a
licensed contractor.
Colin Bignell
Old Codger
Jan 15, 2014, 5:53:43 PM1/15/14
to
and, IMHO, that risk is only significant for long term exposure to high
concentrations. OK, folk with existing lung problems should perhaps be
cautious but for your average bloke occasionally working with sheet or
woven asbestos the risk is minimal.
Car brake pads used to be asbestos. When I serviced my car I would
remove the drums, brush the dust out and then blow the last dregs out.
Did this for years. When I bought my present property in 1966 there
were sheets of asbestos in the sheds, and lash up timber framed asbestos
shelters for storing wood. I have hand sawn, drilled and filed sheet
asbestos and lagged pipes with woven asbestos. A few years ago I
dismantled the last of the shelters and broke up the last of the
sheet, bagged it up and disposed. I smoked heavily until around four
years ago. I am in my mid 70s and do not appear to have suffered in any
way from my exposure to asbestos, despite never wearing a mask or other
protection when working with asbestos.
--
Old Codger
e-mail use reply to field
What matters in politics is not what happens, but what you can make
people believe has happened. [Janet Daley 27/8/2003]
Tony Bryer
Jan 15, 2014, 6:01:50 PM1/15/14
to
On Wed, 15 Jan 2014 22:17:46 +0000 Peter Parry wrote :
> Is it Asbestos or Asbestos cement sheets? The probability is that it
> is Asbestos cement (very hard), if so the risk is very small and it
> does not require a specialist to remove it.
If was fixed to improve the door's fire resistance it will be
> Is it Asbestos or Asbestos cement sheets? The probability is that it
> is Asbestos cement (very hard), if so the risk is very small and it
> does not require a specialist to remove it.
Asbestolux, a relatively soft board - not good stuff. Asbestos cement
would achieve nothing - show it a fire and it would just explode.
Innocent times:
http://curiousobject.blogspot.in/2012/05/asbestolux.html
--
Tony Bryer, Greentram: 'Software to build on',
Melbourne, Australia www.greentram.com
Onetap
Jan 15, 2014, 6:07:48 PM1/15/14
to
On Wednesday, January 15, 2014 10:53:43 PM UTC, Old Codger wrote:
> Car brake pads used to be asbestos. When I serviced my car I would
>
> remove the drums, brush the dust out and then blow the last dregs out.
>
> Did this for years. When I bought my present property in 1966 there
>
> were sheets of asbestos in the sheds, and lash up timber framed asbestos
>
> shelters for storing wood. I have hand sawn, drilled and filed sheet
>
> asbestos and lagged pipes with woven asbestos. A few years ago I
>
> dismantled the last of the shelters and broke up the last of the
>
> sheet, bagged it up and disposed. I smoked heavily until around four
>
> years ago. I am in my mid 70s and do not appear to have suffered in any
>
> way from my exposure to asbestos, despite never wearing a mask or other
>
> protection when working with asbestos.
Hurrah for you!
> Car brake pads used to be asbestos. When I serviced my car I would
>
> remove the drums, brush the dust out and then blow the last dregs out.
>
> Did this for years. When I bought my present property in 1966 there
>
> were sheets of asbestos in the sheds, and lash up timber framed asbestos
>
> shelters for storing wood. I have hand sawn, drilled and filed sheet
>
> asbestos and lagged pipes with woven asbestos. A few years ago I
>
> dismantled the last of the shelters and broke up the last of the
>
> sheet, bagged it up and disposed. I smoked heavily until around four
>
> years ago. I am in my mid 70s and do not appear to have suffered in any
>
> way from my exposure to asbestos, despite never wearing a mask or other
>
> protection when working with asbestos.
It can be twenty or thirty years before any ill effects become apparent.
Many potential victim will have died from natural/other causes before asbestos related cancer makes its appearance.
It's fucking nasty when it does.
You have no ill effects, therefore it is safe? That is illogical, Captain.
It is not possible to select which fibres can be safely inhaled or just inhale the safe ones. There is no known safe doseage.
An old codger (pipe fitter) I worked with made a comment that he had kept in touch with most of his mates from his apprenticeship days.
All but 4 (I think he said) were dead of asbestos related diseases before reaching retirement.
Probably some lung cancer from roll-ups as well.
Old Codger
Jan 15, 2014, 6:26:09 PM1/15/14
to
On 15/01/2014 23:07, Onetap wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 15, 2014 10:53:43 PM UTC, Old Codger wrote:
>
>> Car brake pads used to be asbestos. When I serviced my car I would
>>
>> remove the drums, brush the dust out and then blow the last dregs out.
>>
>> Did this for years. When I bought my present property in 1966 there
>>
>> were sheets of asbestos in the sheds, and lash up timber framed asbestos
>>
>> shelters for storing wood. I have hand sawn, drilled and filed sheet
>>
>> asbestos and lagged pipes with woven asbestos. A few years ago I
>>
>> dismantled the last of the shelters and broke up the last of the
>>
>> sheet, bagged it up and disposed. I smoked heavily until around four
>>
>> years ago. I am in my mid 70s and do not appear to have suffered in any
>>
>> way from my exposure to asbestos, despite never wearing a mask or other
>>
>> protection when working with asbestos.
>
>
> Hurrah for you!
>
> It can be twenty or thirty years before any ill effects become apparent.
> Many potential victim will have died from natural/other causes before asbestos related cancer makes its appearance.
> It's fucking nasty when it does.
>
> You have no ill effects, therefore it is safe? That is illogical, Captain.
Where did I say that?
> On Wednesday, January 15, 2014 10:53:43 PM UTC, Old Codger wrote:
>
>> Car brake pads used to be asbestos. When I serviced my car I would
>>
>> remove the drums, brush the dust out and then blow the last dregs out.
>>
>> Did this for years. When I bought my present property in 1966 there
>>
>> were sheets of asbestos in the sheds, and lash up timber framed asbestos
>>
>> shelters for storing wood. I have hand sawn, drilled and filed sheet
>>
>> asbestos and lagged pipes with woven asbestos. A few years ago I
>>
>> dismantled the last of the shelters and broke up the last of the
>>
>> sheet, bagged it up and disposed. I smoked heavily until around four
>>
>> years ago. I am in my mid 70s and do not appear to have suffered in any
>>
>> way from my exposure to asbestos, despite never wearing a mask or other
>>
>> protection when working with asbestos.
>
>
> Hurrah for you!
>
> It can be twenty or thirty years before any ill effects become apparent.
> Many potential victim will have died from natural/other causes before asbestos related cancer makes its appearance.
> It's fucking nasty when it does.
>
> You have no ill effects, therefore it is safe? That is illogical, Captain.
> It is not possible to select which fibres can be safely inhaled or just inhale the safe ones. There is no known safe doseage.
> An old codger (pipe fitter) I worked with made a comment that he had kept in touch with most of his mates from his apprenticeship days.
> All but 4 (I think he said) were dead of asbestos related diseases before reaching retirement.
> Probably some lung cancer from roll-ups as well.
cut, that is a significant risk.
Onetap
Jan 15, 2014, 6:54:01 PM1/15/14
to
On Wednesday, January 15, 2014 11:26:09 PM UTC, Old Codger wrote:
> > You have no ill effects, therefore it is safe? That is illogical, Captain.
>
>
>
> Where did I say that?
> > You have no ill effects, therefore it is safe? That is illogical, Captain.
>
>
>
> Where did I say that?
"IMHO, that risk is only significant for long term exposure to high
concentrations. OK, folk with existing lung problems should perhaps be
cautious but for your average bloke occasionally working with sheet or
woven asbestos the risk is minimal."
Your opinion is misinformed, IMHO.
concentrations. OK, folk with existing lung problems should perhaps be
cautious but for your average bloke occasionally working with sheet or
woven asbestos the risk is minimal."
Anyone working with sheet or woven asbestos is playing delayed-action Russian roulette.
Many will get away with it. Some won't.
You can't put numbers against any of it.
There have been fatalities amongst people who had minimal known exposure.
The Natural Philosopher
Jan 15, 2014, 7:42:45 PM1/15/14
to
--
Ineptocracy
(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.
harryagain
Jan 16, 2014, 3:16:23 AM1/16/14
to
"Murmansk" <stai...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:d4d217dd-57d5-4af0...@googlegroups.com...
"Millboard"
Soft stuff. Almost pure asbestos and needs to be removed by experts.
"Abestos cement."
Hard stuff. Around 10% asbestos content. You can remove yourself, double
bag, and dispose of at most recycle centres. (As others have said)
However there is an alternative; leave it in position and make it safe and
mark it up as asbestos.
You could cover it with ply, seal the edges and paint.
But to be official you have to put on asbestos hazard signs.
It does make the place harder to sell as any buyer has to be notified.
harryagain
Jan 16, 2014, 3:28:07 AM1/16/14
to
"Old Codger" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:52d71179$0$1388$5b6a...@news.zen.co.uk...
> On 15/01/2014 20:59, Murmansk wrote:
>>
>>>>> You can legally remove it yourself, double bag it and take it to the
>>>>> tip. Wear a suitable mask at least, and dont break the stuff
>>>>> unnecessarily.
>>
>> Maybe put the original doors in the attic, they may be wanted one day <<<
>>
>> I want nothing to do with it, I reckon it'd be impossible to remove
>> without releasing some fibres
>
> It is only recently that asbestos has become such a high profile risk and,
> IMHO, that risk is only significant for long term exposure to high
> concentrations. OK, folk with existing lung problems should perhaps be
> cautious but for your average bloke occasionally working with sheet or
> woven asbestos the risk is minimal.
>
> Car brake pads used to be asbestos. When I serviced my car I would remove
> the drums, brush the dust out and then blow the last dregs out. Did this
> for years. When I bought my present property in 1966 there were sheets of
> asbestos in the sheds, and lash up timber framed asbestos shelters for
> storing wood. I have hand sawn, drilled and filed sheet asbestos and
> lagged pipes with woven asbestos. A few years ago I dismantled the last
> of the shelters and broke up the last of the
> sheet, bagged it up and disposed. I smoked heavily until around four
> years ago. I am in my mid 70s and do not appear to have suffered in any
> way from my exposure to asbestos, despite never wearing a mask or other
> protection when working with asbestos.
Some people can get away with it.
>>
>>>>> You can legally remove it yourself, double bag it and take it to the
>>>>> tip. Wear a suitable mask at least, and dont break the stuff
>>>>> unnecessarily.
>>
>> Maybe put the original doors in the attic, they may be wanted one day <<<
>>
>> I want nothing to do with it, I reckon it'd be impossible to remove
>> without releasing some fibres
>
> It is only recently that asbestos has become such a high profile risk and,
> IMHO, that risk is only significant for long term exposure to high
> concentrations. OK, folk with existing lung problems should perhaps be
> cautious but for your average bloke occasionally working with sheet or
> woven asbestos the risk is minimal.
>
> Car brake pads used to be asbestos. When I serviced my car I would remove
> the drums, brush the dust out and then blow the last dregs out. Did this
> for years. When I bought my present property in 1966 there were sheets of
> asbestos in the sheds, and lash up timber framed asbestos shelters for
> storing wood. I have hand sawn, drilled and filed sheet asbestos and
> lagged pipes with woven asbestos. A few years ago I dismantled the last
> of the shelters and broke up the last of the
> sheet, bagged it up and disposed. I smoked heavily until around four
> years ago. I am in my mid 70s and do not appear to have suffered in any
> way from my exposure to asbestos, despite never wearing a mask or other
> protection when working with asbestos.
Others have died with only a few fibres,
No-one can say how you will be affected, it's very variable.
A woman died of asbestos lung cancer by washing her husbands overalls a few
years back.
harryagain
Jan 16, 2014, 3:32:41 AM1/16/14
to
"harryagain" <harry...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:lb84gp$h2j$9...@dont-email.me...
Inside chimneys, fireplaces, stoves, ceilings, boilerhouses, pipework.
Martin Brown
Jan 16, 2014, 4:03:36 AM1/16/14
to
On 15/01/2014 22:53, Old Codger wrote:
> On 15/01/2014 20:59, Murmansk wrote:
>>
>>>>> You can legally remove it yourself, double bag it and take it to
>>>>> the tip. Wear a suitable mask at least, and dont break the stuff
>>>>> unnecessarily.
>>
>> Maybe put the original doors in the attic, they may be wanted one day <<<
>>
>> I want nothing to do with it, I reckon it'd be impossible to remove
>> without releasing some fibres
I suspect you are right - the fireproofing stuff tends to have free
> On 15/01/2014 20:59, Murmansk wrote:
>>
>>>>> You can legally remove it yourself, double bag it and take it to
>>>>> the tip. Wear a suitable mask at least, and dont break the stuff
>>>>> unnecessarily.
>>
>> Maybe put the original doors in the attic, they may be wanted one day <<<
>>
>> I want nothing to do with it, I reckon it'd be impossible to remove
>> without releasing some fibres
fibres rather than the more common white asbestos cement board.
> It is only recently that asbestos has become such a high profile risk
There is a bit too much hysteria these days about removing white
asbestos cement board from everywhere and making a mess in the process,
but loose lagging material was seriously nasty and few people who worked
with it in the pre-PPE days are still around to tell the tale.
> and, IMHO, that risk is only significant for long term exposure to high
> concentrations. OK, folk with existing lung problems should perhaps be
> cautious but for your average bloke occasionally working with sheet or
> woven asbestos the risk is minimal.
mesothelioma casualty as a result of his smashing up and careless
handling of the relatively safe cement asbestos board in his shop.
If there is loose fibre blue or brown asbestos present and there might
well be with insulating fire proof boards then you really want to be
very careful not to raise a dust. Unless you are used to working with
nasty materials for minimum contamination you don't want to do it.
An alternative is to spray the boards in some approved high tack two
part liquid paint that wicks in, cures and binds everything together. I
recall something like that being used on an asbestos lined observatory
dome back in the 1970's to prevent chucks dropping off. The whole lot
was professionally stripped in the 1990's when it became completely
unacceptable to have serious amounts of blue asbestos in the workplace.
(obviously it would no longer be very fireproof)
You might be able to get a modern intumescent paint formulation that has
all the required properties but you are in expensive specialist territory.
> Car brake pads used to be asbestos. When I serviced my car I would
> remove the drums, brush the dust out and then blow the last dregs out.
> Did this for years. When I bought my present property in 1966 there
> were sheets of asbestos in the sheds, and lash up timber framed asbestos
> shelters for storing wood. I have hand sawn, drilled and filed sheet
> asbestos and lagged pipes with woven asbestos. A few years ago I
> dismantled the last of the shelters and broke up the last of the
> sheet, bagged it up and disposed. I smoked heavily until around four
> years ago. I am in my mid 70s and do not appear to have suffered in any
> way from my exposure to asbestos, despite never wearing a mask or other
> protection when working with asbestos.
shortened your lifespan by careless handling of asbestos dust. It is a
matter of luck, genetics and other potential cofactors like smoking.
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
Geoff Pearson
Jan 16, 2014, 4:33:47 AM1/16/14
to
Peter Parry
Jan 16, 2014, 4:37:26 AM1/16/14
to
On Thu, 16 Jan 2014 10:01:50 +1100, Tony Bryer
<to...@delme.greentram.com> wrote:
>If was fixed to improve the door's fire resistance it will be
>Asbestolux, a relatively soft board - not good stuff. Asbestos cement
>would achieve nothing - show it a fire and it would just explode.
Depending upon when it was fitted, after the early 1970's it could
<to...@delme.greentram.com> wrote:
>If was fixed to improve the door's fire resistance it will be
>Asbestolux, a relatively soft board - not good stuff. Asbestos cement
>would achieve nothing - show it a fire and it would just explode.
also be Supalux calcium silicate board which looks similar the
asbestolux. Asbestos cement was certainly used to create "Fire Doors",
it had the advantage over the soft Asbestolux of being much less
likely to be damaged by impacts.
Peter Parry
Jan 16, 2014, 4:42:56 AM1/16/14
to
On Wed, 15 Jan 2014 15:54:01 -0800 (PST), Onetap <one...@talk21.com>
wrote:
> Your opinion is misinformed, IMHO.
>Anyone working with sheet or woven asbestos is playing delayed-action Russian roulette.
> Many will get away with it. Some won't.
>You can't put numbers against any of it.
Actually you can, there is a well established dose/time relationship
with asbestos exposure and asbestos related disease. The greater the
exposure and the longer the time of exposure the greater the risk of
disease.
> There have been fatalities amongst people who had minimal known exposure.
Everyone in the UK has daily exposure to asbestos fibres, it is a
naturally occurring mineral and present in the air almost everywhere.
"One fibre can kill" does not mean that one fibre will kill or even
that one fibre is likely to kill.
wrote:
> Your opinion is misinformed, IMHO.
>Anyone working with sheet or woven asbestos is playing delayed-action Russian roulette.
> Many will get away with it. Some won't.
>You can't put numbers against any of it.
with asbestos exposure and asbestos related disease. The greater the
exposure and the longer the time of exposure the greater the risk of
disease.
> There have been fatalities amongst people who had minimal known exposure.
naturally occurring mineral and present in the air almost everywhere.
"One fibre can kill" does not mean that one fibre will kill or even
that one fibre is likely to kill.
Peter Parry
Jan 16, 2014, 4:46:41 AM1/16/14
to
>One company quoted �2,000 to remove the 4 doors, take them away and bring them back without the asbestos.
>Another quoted �250 to remove the doors and dispose of them at the tip. Another said it was not possible
>to remove the doors and then take off the asbestos as the doors would be classed as "contaminated".
You do not need to use an asbestos register contractor to remove the
>Another quoted �250 to remove the doors and dispose of them at the tip. Another said it was not possible
>to remove the doors and then take off the asbestos as the doors would be classed as "contaminated".
doors (not the board) even if they are lined with asbestos containing
fibreboard.
See http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/guidance/a3.pdf
stuart noble
Jan 16, 2014, 5:00:38 AM1/16/14
to
Tim Watts
Jan 16, 2014, 5:02:05 AM1/16/14
to
On Wednesday 15 January 2014 23:01 Tony Bryer wrote in uk.d-i-y:
> On Wed, 15 Jan 2014 22:17:46 +0000 Peter Parry wrote :
>> Is it Asbestos or Asbestos cement sheets? The probability is that it
>> is Asbestos cement (very hard), if so the risk is very small and it
>> does not require a specialist to remove it.
>
> If was fixed to improve the door's fire resistance it will be
> Asbestolux, a relatively soft board - not good stuff. Asbestos cement
> would achieve nothing - show it a fire and it would just explode.
>
> Innocent times:
>
> http://curiousobject.blogspot.in/2012/05/asbestolux.html
>
When men did DIY in their workshirt and tie!
> On Wed, 15 Jan 2014 22:17:46 +0000 Peter Parry wrote :
>> Is it Asbestos or Asbestos cement sheets? The probability is that it
>> is Asbestos cement (very hard), if so the risk is very small and it
>> does not require a specialist to remove it.
>
> If was fixed to improve the door's fire resistance it will be
> Asbestolux, a relatively soft board - not good stuff. Asbestos cement
> would achieve nothing - show it a fire and it would just explode.
>
> Innocent times:
>
> http://curiousobject.blogspot.in/2012/05/asbestolux.html
>
Fredxxx
Jan 16, 2014, 5:12:33 AM1/16/14
to
The idea of spraying and it's corresponding disturbance through air
movement is hardly ideal.
I would have thought hand painting with a brush and/or roller would be
better?
Peter Parry
Jan 16, 2014, 6:54:29 AM1/16/14
to
On Thu, 16 Jan 2014 10:00:38 +0000, stuart noble
<stuart...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>On 16/01/2014 09:42, Peter Parry wrote:
>> On Wed, 15 Jan 2014 15:54:01 -0800 (PST), Onetap <one...@talk21.com>
<stuart...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>On 16/01/2014 09:42, Peter Parry wrote:
>> On Wed, 15 Jan 2014 15:54:01 -0800 (PST), Onetap <one...@talk21.com>
>> Everyone in the UK has daily exposure to asbestos fibres, it is a
>> naturally occurring mineral and present in the air almost everywhere.
>> "One fibre can kill" does not mean that one fibre will kill or even
>> that one fibre is likely to kill.
>>
>
>So one fibre may have killed somebody somewhere once
Who knows? The problem is a legal one rather than a scientific one
>> naturally occurring mineral and present in the air almost everywhere.
>> "One fibre can kill" does not mean that one fibre will kill or even
>> that one fibre is likely to kill.
>>
>
>So one fibre may have killed somebody somewhere once
and applies only to mesothelioma, not asbestosis.
It is generally believed that exposure to one single fibre can (not
will) be the cause of mesothelioma. There is also no known threshold
of asbestos exposure below which mesothelioma CANNOT occur (although
there still remains a dose/time relationship with the probability of
developing the disease). Because mesothelioma can be caused when a
single cell in the lung lining is damaged and undergoes malignant
transformation in Fairchild v. Glenhaven the House of Lords
established the principle of �indivisibility�, balance of probability
couldn't be argued.
If, legally, there only needs to be one event where there is exposure
to asbestos for mesothelioma potentially to develop then this creates
a legal environment where anyone who develops mesothelioma only has to
identify one occasion where they were exposed to asbestos in the
workplace to have a claim which will succeed whether it is likely or
not that that exposure was significant. The defence cannot argue
balance of probability.
In one case I am aware of a claimant with mesothelioma sued a past
employer alleging asbestos exposure 40 years ago when he claimed to
have cut some asbestos sheets to make a tank cladding. There was no
evidence, other than their statement, that any asbestos containing
material had ever been handled by the claimant in that employment (he
was employed as a manager).
There was evidence that the father of the claimant had imported
asbestos in the 1940's and 50's and that the claimant and his sister
played for long periods over some years in the sheds storing loose
blue asbestos. The claimants sister had died of mesothelioma 5 years
previously. Despite the balance of probability being hugely towards
the blue asbestos exposure being the cause of his mesothelioma the
claimant won his claim against the past employer.
The Natural Philosopher
Jan 16, 2014, 9:43:26 AM1/16/14
to
Phil L
Jan 16, 2014, 9:44:41 AM1/16/14
to
Murmansk wrote:
> A friend of mine has bought a flat on the top floor of a large
> Victorian house.
>
> All the doors are original, but have been covered on one side with
> what turns out to be asbestos, to make them into fire doors.
>
> We want to remove the asbestos but retain the doors. One company
> A friend of mine has bought a flat on the top floor of a large
> Victorian house.
>
> All the doors are original, but have been covered on one side with
> what turns out to be asbestos, to make them into fire doors.
>
> quoted �2,000 to remove the 4 doors, take them away and bring them
> back without the asbestos. Another quoted �250 to remove the doors
> and dispose of them at the tip. Another said it was not possible to
> remove the doors and then take off the asbestos as the doors would be
> classed as "contaminated".
>
> back without the asbestos. Another quoted �250 to remove the doors
> and dispose of them at the tip. Another said it was not possible to
> remove the doors and then take off the asbestos as the doors would be
> classed as "contaminated".
>
> In practice we'll probably have new fire doors fitted but I wondered
> what opinion is about the above?
>
> We'd presumably have had to put some form of modern sheeting back on
> the original doors to make them into fire doors, and they looked
> horrible, so new doors would at least look a lot better.
You've got to think why this happened in the first place.
> what opinion is about the above?
>
> We'd presumably have had to put some form of modern sheeting back on
> the original doors to make them into fire doors, and they looked
> horrible, so new doors would at least look a lot better.
Fire doors are thicker than ordinary doors, meaning that the frames would
either have to be changed completely or rebated further to allow a normal
fire door to be used. Whoever covered them in asbestos did so because they
didn't want the expense.
You can either get rid of the doors and frames, leave them as hey are or, if
you're lucky, you can order specially made thinner fire doors, but these are
expensive, typically half as much again as the price of ordinary fire
doors.
If you are insistent you are not touching the doors, even though it is
perfectly safe to do so, pay the bloke �250 to get rid and look around for
thinner doors
stuart noble
Jan 16, 2014, 10:09:37 AM1/16/14
to
On 16/01/2014 14:43, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 16/01/14 10:00, stuart noble wrote:
>> On 16/01/2014 09:42, Peter Parry wrote:
>>> On Wed, 15 Jan 2014 15:54:01 -0800 (PST), Onetap <one...@talk21.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Your opinion is misinformed, IMHO.
>>>> Anyone working with sheet or woven asbestos is playing delayed-action
>>>> Russian roulette.
>>>> Many will get away with it. Some won't.
>>>> You can't put numbers against any of it.
>>>
>>> Actually you can, there is a well established dose/time relationship
>>> with asbestos exposure and asbestos related disease. The greater the
>>> exposure and the longer the time of exposure the greater the risk of
>>> disease.
>>>
>>>> There have been fatalities amongst people who had minimal known
>>>> exposure.
>>>
>>> Everyone in the UK has daily exposure to asbestos fibres, it is a
>>> naturally occurring mineral and present in the air almost everywhere.
>>> "One fibre can kill" does not mean that one fibre will kill or even
>>> that one fibre is likely to kill.
>>>
>>
>> So one fibre may have killed somebody somewhere once
>
>
> one of almost anything may have killed someone somewhere once.
>
>
>
Maybe even a fraction of one
> On 16/01/14 10:00, stuart noble wrote:
>> On 16/01/2014 09:42, Peter Parry wrote:
>>> On Wed, 15 Jan 2014 15:54:01 -0800 (PST), Onetap <one...@talk21.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Your opinion is misinformed, IMHO.
>>>> Anyone working with sheet or woven asbestos is playing delayed-action
>>>> Russian roulette.
>>>> Many will get away with it. Some won't.
>>>> You can't put numbers against any of it.
>>>
>>> Actually you can, there is a well established dose/time relationship
>>> with asbestos exposure and asbestos related disease. The greater the
>>> exposure and the longer the time of exposure the greater the risk of
>>> disease.
>>>
>>>> There have been fatalities amongst people who had minimal known
>>>> exposure.
>>>
>>> Everyone in the UK has daily exposure to asbestos fibres, it is a
>>> naturally occurring mineral and present in the air almost everywhere.
>>> "One fibre can kill" does not mean that one fibre will kill or even
>>> that one fibre is likely to kill.
>>>
>>
>> So one fibre may have killed somebody somewhere once
>
>
> one of almost anything may have killed someone somewhere once.
>
>
>
Onetap
Jan 16, 2014, 1:54:32 PM1/16/14
to
On Thursday, January 16, 2014 2:43:26 PM UTC, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> > So one fibre may have killed somebody somewhere once
>
>
>
>
>
> one of almost anything may have killed someone somewhere once.
As I understand it, the properties of asbestos fibres that make them hazardous is that they are;
> > So one fibre may have killed somebody somewhere once
>
>
>
>
>
> one of almost anything may have killed someone somewhere once.
1) respirable (small enough to get inhaled into the most remote corners of the lungs, unlike mineral/glass fibres)
and 2) durable (once in, they stay there and aren't degraded by bodily fluids, unlike fabric fibres).
The cancer will originate about a fragment of a fibre, so that in effect it is one fibre that does kill you.
I haven't studied it, I had a role in registering, monitoring and organising removal by contractors. Anyone with real qualifications can feel free to correct me. Some of the advice above is misguided.
dennis@home
Jan 16, 2014, 2:33:01 PM1/16/14
to
the last time I burnt some it exploded once it got hot.
There were bits of burning wood attached to bits of board all over the
place.
It took about 15 minutes IIRC.
Murmansk
Jan 16, 2014, 2:41:22 PM1/16/14
to
A wide variety of opinions here!
As it's not my flat and as my friend is not a DIY-er and I won't do it, the doors will be disposed of and new ones fitted. New ones will look better anyway with panels on both sides. The current ones looks like a cheap 1970s guest house with their flush panel and door closers!
Just for the record, I've had it analysed, it is asbestos and I don't think it's asbestos cement - I think it's "Asbestolux"
As it's not my flat and as my friend is not a DIY-er and I won't do it, the doors will be disposed of and new ones fitted. New ones will look better anyway with panels on both sides. The current ones looks like a cheap 1970s guest house with their flush panel and door closers!
Just for the record, I've had it analysed, it is asbestos and I don't think it's asbestos cement - I think it's "Asbestolux"
Peter Parry
Jan 16, 2014, 4:29:55 PM1/16/14
to
On Thu, 16 Jan 2014 19:33:01 +0000, "dennis@home"
<den...@killspam.kicks-ass.net> wrote:
>It wouldn't be any use for a fire door..
>the last time I burnt some it exploded once it got hot.
>There were bits of burning wood attached to bits of board all over the
>place.
>It took about 15 minutes IIRC.
Do not confuse what things were used for with what they are good at.
<den...@killspam.kicks-ass.net> wrote:
>It wouldn't be any use for a fire door..
>the last time I burnt some it exploded once it got hot.
>There were bits of burning wood attached to bits of board all over the
>place.
>It took about 15 minutes IIRC.
Also the purpose of a "fire door" (really a smoke stop door) is to
buy you time. Usually about 15 mins is adequate so most such doors
are 30min rated. Almost any decent solid wood door will meet or be
very close to the 30min rating without any cladding, the real risk is
egg box doors. A solid door clad in asbestos cement will almost
certainly meet the 30 min time. Fitting an intumescent seal is more
important than changing one cladding for another.
Old Codger
Jan 16, 2014, 4:32:59 PM1/16/14
to
On 15/01/2014 23:54, Onetap wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 15, 2014 11:26:09 PM UTC, Old Codger wrote:
>
>>> You have no ill effects, therefore it is safe? That is illogical, Captain.
>>
>>
>>
>> Where did I say that?
> "IMHO, that risk is only significant for long term exposure to high
> concentrations. OK, folk with existing lung problems should perhaps be
> cautious but for your average bloke occasionally working with sheet or
> woven asbestos the risk is minimal."
Doesn't say, or even imply, that it is safe though.
> On Wednesday, January 15, 2014 11:26:09 PM UTC, Old Codger wrote:
>
>>> You have no ill effects, therefore it is safe? That is illogical, Captain.
>>
>>
>>
>> Where did I say that?
> "IMHO, that risk is only significant for long term exposure to high
> concentrations. OK, folk with existing lung problems should perhaps be
> cautious but for your average bloke occasionally working with sheet or
> woven asbestos the risk is minimal."
> Your opinion is misinformed, IMHO.
> Anyone working with sheet or woven asbestos is playing delayed-action Russian roulette.
> Many will get away with it. Some won't.
> You can't put numbers against any of it.
Risk is the product of the level of danger and likelihood of occurrence.
In this case the level of danger is death, i.e. high but the
likelihood of dying, or even suffering serious illness, is low when the
concentration is low. That gives a low level of risk. In high
concentrations though the likelihood of death or serious illness is high
so the overall level of risk is high. All the levels from the highest
risk to the lowest can be allocated numbers.
> There have been fatalities amongst people who had minimal known exposure.
low, unless there are other factors involved.
Old Codger
Jan 16, 2014, 4:43:01 PM1/16/14
to
On 16/01/2014 09:03, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 15/01/2014 22:53, Old Codger wrote:
>> On 15/01/2014 20:59, Murmansk wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> You can legally remove it yourself, double bag it and take it to
>>>>>> the tip. Wear a suitable mask at least, and dont break the stuff
>>>>>> unnecessarily.
>>>
>>> Maybe put the original doors in the attic, they may be wanted one day
>>> <<<
>>>
>>> I want nothing to do with it, I reckon it'd be impossible to remove
>>> without releasing some fibres
>
> I suspect you are right - the fireproofing stuff tends to have free
> fibres rather than the more common white asbestos cement board.
>
>> It is only recently that asbestos has become such a high profile risk
>
> If by recently you mean the 1970's then I suppose you are right.
Ok, relatively recently. :-)
> On 15/01/2014 22:53, Old Codger wrote:
>> On 15/01/2014 20:59, Murmansk wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> You can legally remove it yourself, double bag it and take it to
>>>>>> the tip. Wear a suitable mask at least, and dont break the stuff
>>>>>> unnecessarily.
>>>
>>> Maybe put the original doors in the attic, they may be wanted one day
>>> <<<
>>>
>>> I want nothing to do with it, I reckon it'd be impossible to remove
>>> without releasing some fibres
>
> I suspect you are right - the fireproofing stuff tends to have free
> fibres rather than the more common white asbestos cement board.
>
>> It is only recently that asbestos has become such a high profile risk
>
> If by recently you mean the 1970's then I suppose you are right.
> There is a bit too much hysteria these days about removing white
> asbestos cement board from everywhere and making a mess in the process,
> but loose lagging material was seriously nasty and few people who worked
> with it in the pre-PPE days are still around to tell the tale.
>
>> and, IMHO, that risk is only significant for long term exposure to high
>> concentrations. OK, folk with existing lung problems should perhaps be
>> cautious but for your average bloke occasionally working with sheet or
>> woven asbestos the risk is minimal.
>
> Try telling that to Malcolm McClaren - probably the most high profile
> mesothelioma casualty as a result of his smashing up and careless
> handling of the relatively safe cement asbestos board in his shop.
probability. The fact remains that very few folk would suffer any
symptoms under those conditions.
asbestos board from my late 20s. As I said above, I smoked heavily from
age 16 until about four years ago. When is this "shortened lifespan"
likely to show?
Tim Lamb
Jan 16, 2014, 5:16:38 PM1/16/14
to
In message <52d833f0$0$61307$c3e8da3$5e5e...@news.astraweb.com>,
"dennis@home" <den...@killspam.kicks-ass.net> writes
Steam from water trapped in voids, should be OK indoors:-) I have used
an asbestos cement offcut as plumbing protection when the glass fibre
mat went astray.
--
Tim Lamb
"dennis@home" <den...@killspam.kicks-ass.net> writes
an asbestos cement offcut as plumbing protection when the glass fibre
mat went astray.
--
Tim Lamb
ne...@sylva.icuklive.co.uk
Jan 16, 2014, 5:32:55 PM1/16/14
to
On Thu, 16 Jan 2014 10:01:50 +1100, Tony Bryer
<to...@delme.greentram.com> wrote:
>. Asbestos cement
>would achieve nothing - show it a fire and it would just explode.
We would seek out the dimpled fragments just to throw them on the
<to...@delme.greentram.com> wrote:
>. Asbestos cement
>would achieve nothing - show it a fire and it would just explode.
bonfire!
Tony Bryer
Jan 16, 2014, 5:54:23 PM1/16/14
to
On Thu, 16 Jan 2014 21:29:55 +0000 Peter Parry wrote :
> Also the purpose of a "fire door" (really a smoke stop door) is to
> buy you time. Usually about 15 mins is adequate so most such doors
> are 30min rated. Almost any decent solid wood door will meet or be
> very close to the 30min rating without any cladding, the real risk
> is egg box doors. A solid door clad in asbestos cement will almost
> certainly meet the 30 min time. Fitting an intumescent seal is more
> important than changing one cladding for another.
We did lots of this work in my first job as a council surveyor (1974-
> Also the purpose of a "fire door" (really a smoke stop door) is to
> buy you time. Usually about 15 mins is adequate so most such doors
> are 30min rated. Almost any decent solid wood door will meet or be
> very close to the 30min rating without any cladding, the real risk
> is egg box doors. A solid door clad in asbestos cement will almost
> certainly meet the 30 min time. Fitting an intumescent seal is more
> important than changing one cladding for another.
1976). The doors in question were four-panel timber doors in old
Victorian piles that had been turned into old people's homes (pretty
grim then, spending your last months/years in a dorm of four or five).
Unprotected the panels would probably last 5-10 minutes before
splitting and letting fire and smoke through.
--
Tony Bryer, Greentram: 'Software to build on',
Melbourne, Australia www.greentram.com
Old Codger
Jan 16, 2014, 6:32:58 PM1/16/14
to
asbestos sheet cut to fit around pipes or other obstacles. No problems
as long as they are completely dry.
The Natural Philosopher
Jan 16, 2014, 8:22:37 PM1/16/14
to
On 16/01/14 18:54, Onetap wrote:
> On Thursday, January 16, 2014 2:43:26 PM UTC, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>>> So one fibre may have killed somebody somewhere once
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> one of almost anything may have killed someone somewhere once.
>
> As I understand it, the properties of asbestos fibres that make them hazardous is that they are;
> 1) respirable (small enough to get inhaled into the most remote corners of the lungs, unlike mineral/glass fibres)
>
I can assure you that these are respirable, too
> On Thursday, January 16, 2014 2:43:26 PM UTC, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>>> So one fibre may have killed somebody somewhere once
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> one of almost anything may have killed someone somewhere once.
>
> As I understand it, the properties of asbestos fibres that make them hazardous is that they are;
> 1) respirable (small enough to get inhaled into the most remote corners of the lungs, unlike mineral/glass fibres)
>
> and 2) durable (once in, they stay there and aren't degraded by bodily fluids, unlike fabric fibres).
>
Unless you are a smoker too.
> The cancer will originate about a fragment of a fibre, so that in effect it is one fibre that does kill you.
>
> I haven't studied it,
> I had a role in registering, monitoring and organising removal by contractors. Anyone with real qualifications can feel free to correct me. Some of the advice above is misguided.
>
stuart noble
Jan 17, 2014, 4:01:32 AM1/17/14
to
> I am in my mid 70s and started playing with cars in my mid 20s and
> asbestos board from my late 20s. As I said above, I smoked heavily from
> age 16 until about four years ago. When is this "shortened lifespan"
> likely to show?
>
>
Muddymike
Jan 17, 2014, 5:37:17 AM1/17/14
to
On Wednesday, January 15, 2014 6:55:58 PM UTC, Murmansk wrote:
>> A friend of mine has bought a flat on the top floor of a large Victorian
>> house.
>> All the doors are original, but have been covered on one side with what
>> turns out to be asbestos, to make them into fire doors.
>> We want to remove the asbestos but retain the doors. One company quoted
>> �2,000 to remove the 4 doors, take them away and bring them back without
>> the asbestos. Another quoted �250 to remove the doors and dispose of them
>> at the tip. Another said it was not possible to remove the doors and then
>> take off the asbestos as the doors would be classed as "contaminated".
>> In practice we'll probably have new fire doors fitted but I wondered what
>> opinion is about the above?
>> We'd presumably have had to put some form of modern sheeting back on the
>> original doors to make them into fire doors, and they looked horrible, so
>> new doors would at least look a lot better.
>
>> A friend of mine has bought a flat on the top floor of a large Victorian
>> house.
>> All the doors are original, but have been covered on one side with what
>> turns out to be asbestos, to make them into fire doors.
>> We want to remove the asbestos but retain the doors. One company quoted
>> �2,000 to remove the 4 doors, take them away and bring them back without
>> the asbestos. Another quoted �250 to remove the doors and dispose of them
>> at the tip. Another said it was not possible to remove the doors and then
>> take off the asbestos as the doors would be classed as "contaminated".
>> In practice we'll probably have new fire doors fitted but I wondered what
>> opinion is about the above?
>> We'd presumably have had to put some form of modern sheeting back on the
>> original doors to make them into fire doors, and they looked horrible, so
>> new doors would at least look a lot better.
>
>You can legally remove it yourself, double bag it and take it to the tip.
>Wear a suitable mask at least, and don't break the stuff unnecessarily.
>
I did exactly that^
My home was a care home before we bought it and I was faced with the same
problem.
Mike
Onetap
Jan 17, 2014, 6:53:16 AM1/17/14
to
On Friday, January 17, 2014 1:22:37 AM UTC, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 16/01/14 18:54, Onetap wrote:
> > 1) respirable (small enough to get inhaled into the most remote corners of the lungs, unlike mineral/glass fibres)
>
> >
>
> I can assure you that these are respirable, too
They do get inhaled, but don't penetrate as far as asbestos does. Larger fibres
> On 16/01/14 18:54, Onetap wrote:
> > 1) respirable (small enough to get inhaled into the most remote corners of the lungs, unlike mineral/glass fibres)
>
> >
>
> I can assure you that these are respirable, too
ISTR.
Otherwise, why doesn't mineral or glass fibres cause the same problems as asbestos?
>
>
> > and 2) durable (once in, they stay there and aren't degraded by bodily fluids, unlike fabric fibres).
>
> >
>
> no, they normally get waved out by cilia. And then coughed out.
As above, why does asbestos cause (more/worse?) lung cancers when the glass and mineral fibre replacements don't (seem to?).
>
> Unless you are a smoker too.
>
>
>
> > The cancer will originate about a fragment of a fibre, so that in effect it is one fibre that does kill you.
>
> >
>
> Not will, may..
It is the one fibre that doesn't get waved or coughed out that starts the problem.
> Unless you are a smoker too.
>
>
>
> > The cancer will originate about a fragment of a fibre, so that in effect it is one fibre that does kill you.
>
> >
>
> Not will, may..
>
>
> > I haven't studied it,
>
>
>
> It shows
I'm not posing as an expert, unlike many on this forum, and have said that above. I had an involvement.
So what's your experience and can you provide answers to the questions above?
Would you recommend DIY removal of AIB, as some posters have done?
Onetap
Jan 17, 2014, 7:06:03 AM1/17/14
to
On Thursday, January 16, 2014 9:43:01 PM UTC, Old Codger wrote:
> I am in my mid 70s and started playing with cars in my mid 20s and
>
> asbestos board from my late 20s. As I said above, I smoked heavily from
>
> age 16 until about four years ago. When is this "shortened lifespan"
>
> likely to show?
You're not a representative sample though, but one individual.
> I am in my mid 70s and started playing with cars in my mid 20s and
>
> asbestos board from my late 20s. As I said above, I smoked heavily from
>
> age 16 until about four years ago. When is this "shortened lifespan"
>
> likely to show?
If you could get a few hundred such Old Codgers, with identical exposure to smoking and asbestos,
then you could plot their life spans and it would probably form the usual bell curve.
Some would check out earlier than most, from unconnected natural causes, RTAs, homicides, accidents, etc..
There would probably be a higher proportion (compared to non-smokers and non-asbestos exposed population) of associated deaths from asbestos
or smoking related diseases and the average Old Codger life expectancy would reduce accordingly.
You've got away with it, thus far. Well done you.
There were probably others who did similar stuff and didn't make it past their 30s,40s, 50s or 60s.
They can't tell us about their experiences, but you still can.
The fact that you've survived beyond the average life expectancy doesn't make it sensible to bugger about with asbestos or smoke, if you can avoid doing so.
Onetap
Jan 17, 2014, 7:11:35 AM1/17/14
to
On Thursday, January 16, 2014 9:43:01 PM UTC, Old Codger wrote:
Old Chap; When is this "shortened lifespan" likely to show?
Doctor; Ten.
Old Person; Ten years! Well, I can accept that, I've had a better innings than most.
Doctor; Nine......
With apologies to Dr. House.
Geoff Pearson
Jan 17, 2014, 7:17:38 AM1/17/14
to
"Murmansk" <stai...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:f847c475-4952-45b4...@googlegroups.com...
charles
Jan 17, 2014, 9:02:30 AM1/17/14
to
In article <bjslaq...@mid.individual.net>, Geoff Pearson
usually becasue of an internal garage.
--
From KT24
Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18
--
From KT24
Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18
Martin Brown
Jan 17, 2014, 10:07:20 AM1/17/14
to
On 17/01/2014 11:53, Onetap wrote:
> On Friday, January 17, 2014 1:22:37 AM UTC, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 16/01/14 18:54, Onetap wrote:
>
>>> 1) respirable (small enough to get inhaled into the most remote corners of the lungs, unlike mineral/glass fibres)
>>
>> I can assure you that these are respirable, too
> They do get inhaled, but don't penetrate as far as asbestos does. Larger fibres
> ISTR.
> Otherwise, why doesn't mineral or glass fibres cause the same problems as asbestos?
They do but to a lesser extent. Silicosis is the corresponding nasty
> On Friday, January 17, 2014 1:22:37 AM UTC, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 16/01/14 18:54, Onetap wrote:
>
>>> 1) respirable (small enough to get inhaled into the most remote corners of the lungs, unlike mineral/glass fibres)
>>
>> I can assure you that these are respirable, too
> They do get inhaled, but don't penetrate as far as asbestos does. Larger fibres
> ISTR.
> Otherwise, why doesn't mineral or glass fibres cause the same problems as asbestos?
lung disease of miners and iron work fettlers who died young from it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicosis
>
>>> and 2) durable (once in, they stay there and aren't degraded by bodily fluids, unlike fabric fibres).
>>
>> no, they normally get waved out by cilia. And then coughed out.
>
> So they're not there and don't cause a problem?
> As above, why does asbestos cause (more/worse?) lung cancers when the glass and mineral fibre replacements don't (seem to?).
Different forms of asbestos have different danger levels the exact
>>> and 2) durable (once in, they stay there and aren't degraded by bodily fluids, unlike fabric fibres).
>>
>> no, they normally get waved out by cilia. And then coughed out.
>
> So they're not there and don't cause a problem?
> As above, why does asbestos cause (more/worse?) lung cancers when the glass and mineral fibre replacements don't (seem to?).
crystalline shape of very fine razor sharp needles being the most
dangerous. The ranking is blue worse than brown both much worse than
white and the catch is that apart from mineral specimens you generally
have some proportion of each type present in commercial grade materials.
Asbestos combines exactly the worst of geometry and surface chemistry to
yeild a potent way of damaging nuclear DNA in the lungs.
>> Unless you are a smoker too.
>>
>>> The cancer will originate about a fragment of a fibre, so that in effect it is one fibre that does kill you.
>>
>> Not will, may..
>
> It is the one fibre that doesn't get waved or coughed out that starts the problem.
takes to get to LD50 for the different forms of asbestos. Records tend
to be very sketchy but what is certain is that large numbers of former
asbestos workers die horribly from it every year.
Other cofactors like smoking also influence the risk.
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
Martin Brown
Jan 17, 2014, 10:05:12 AM1/17/14
to
On 17/01/2014 11:53, Onetap wrote:
> On Friday, January 17, 2014 1:22:37 AM UTC, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 16/01/14 18:54, Onetap wrote:
>
>>> 1) respirable (small enough to get inhaled into the most remote corners of the lungs, unlike mineral/glass fibres)
>>
>> I can assure you that these are respirable, too
> They do get inhaled, but don't penetrate as far as asbestos does. Larger fibres
> ISTR.
> Otherwise, why doesn't mineral or glass fibres cause the same problems as asbestos?
>> On 16/01/14 18:54, Onetap wrote:
>
>>> 1) respirable (small enough to get inhaled into the most remote corners of the lungs, unlike mineral/glass fibres)
>>
>> I can assure you that these are respirable, too
> They do get inhaled, but don't penetrate as far as asbestos does. Larger fibres
> ISTR.
> Otherwise, why doesn't mineral or glass fibres cause the same problems as asbestos?
They do but to a lesser extent. Silicosis is the corresponding nasty
lung disease of miners and iron work fettlers who died young from it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicosis
>
lung disease of miners and iron work fettlers who died young from it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicosis
>
>>> and 2) durable (once in, they stay there and aren't degraded by bodily fluids, unlike fabric fibres).
>>
>> no, they normally get waved out by cilia. And then coughed out.
>
> So they're not there and don't cause a problem?
> As above, why does asbestos cause (more/worse?) lung cancers when the glass and mineral fibre replacements don't (seem to?).
>>
>> no, they normally get waved out by cilia. And then coughed out.
>
> So they're not there and don't cause a problem?
> As above, why does asbestos cause (more/worse?) lung cancers when the glass and mineral fibre replacements don't (seem to?).
Different forms of asbestos have different danger levels the exact
crystalline shape of very fine razor sharp needles being the most
dangerous. The ranking is blue worse than brown both much worse than
white and the catch is that apart from mineral specimens you generally
have some proportion of each type present in commercial grade materials.
Asbestos combines exactly the worst of geometry and surface chemistry to
yeild a potent way of damaging nuclear DNA in the lungs.
crystalline shape of very fine razor sharp needles being the most
dangerous. The ranking is blue worse than brown both much worse than
white and the catch is that apart from mineral specimens you generally
have some proportion of each type present in commercial grade materials.
Asbestos combines exactly the worst of geometry and surface chemistry to
yeild a potent way of damaging nuclear DNA in the lungs.
>> Unless you are a smoker too.
>>
>>> The cancer will originate about a fragment of a fibre, so that in effect it is one fibre that does kill you.
>>
>> Not will, may..
>
> It is the one fibre that doesn't get waved or coughed out that starts the problem.
>>
>>> The cancer will originate about a fragment of a fibre, so that in effect it is one fibre that does kill you.
>>
>> Not will, may..
>
> It is the one fibre that doesn't get waved or coughed out that starts the problem.
Peter Parry
Jan 17, 2014, 1:06:24 PM1/17/14
to
On Fri, 17 Jan 2014 03:53:16 -0800 (PST), Onetap <one...@talk21.com>
wrote:
>It is the one fibre that doesn't get waved or coughed out that starts the problem.
No it isn't. As you were told one fibre CAN (not will) cause a
problem. The chances of one fibre doing so are very very small. That
is why the disease occurs far more in occupations where exposure is
both heavy and for a long time. Everyone breathes asbestos fibres
every day yet mesothelioma is not common. Look up the Helsinki
Criteria.
wrote:
>It is the one fibre that doesn't get waved or coughed out that starts the problem.
problem. The chances of one fibre doing so are very very small. That
is why the disease occurs far more in occupations where exposure is
both heavy and for a long time. Everyone breathes asbestos fibres
every day yet mesothelioma is not common. Look up the Helsinki
Criteria.
Murmansk
Jan 17, 2014, 1:46:47 PM1/17/14
to
>>I don't have any fire doors in my house - why are they being fitted here?> <<
Because it's a flat which is on the top floor of an old Victorian House - presumably your house doesn't have a separate set of people and a kitchen on each floor - this must add to the fire risk?
Old Codger
Jan 17, 2014, 3:03:24 PM1/17/14
to
Maybe tomorrow.
Message has been deleted
Weatherlawyer
Jan 18, 2014, 1:33:54 PM1/18/14
to
On Thursday, 16 January 2014 10:00:38 UTC, stuart noble wrote:
>
> So one fibre may have killed somebody somewhere once
As opposed to twice?
>
> So one fibre may have killed somebody somewhere once
Wet the boards with or without the PVA advised and take the doors outside. Suitably kitted, remove said asbestos and bag as told. Take to a disposal site. (Stoke on Trent has an open skip next to the office/watchmen's kiosk at the Sideways wasteground for plasterboard and asbestos. The plasterboard might be covered with artex which used to use asbestos.
There is no protection for anyone in the yard when someone tips stuff in the skip.
Get a full face mask if you feel like that (but what are you going to wear when watching TV or eating, bonking and sleeping in the house for the rest of your stay there?) and remove said panels for bagging as described.
Take to disposal site or bury in garden or whatever.
Wash doors, seal, paint or varnish and rehang. Or just pay someone to get rid of them for you and buy replacements.
You have a choice of two procedures unless you want to pay for someone to do it all for you.
MattyF
Jan 19, 2014, 4:29:01 PM1/19/14
to
On Thu, 16 Jan 2014 21:29:55 +0000, Peter Parry wrote:
> Also the purpose of a "fire door" (really a smoke stop door) is to
> buy you time. Usually about 15 mins is adequate so most such doors are
> 30min rated. Almost any decent solid wood door will meet or be very
> close to the 30min rating without any cladding, the real risk is egg box
> doors. A solid door clad in asbestos cement will almost certainly meet
> the 30 min time. Fitting an intumescent seal is more important than
> changing one cladding for another.
Our mountain hut was broken into many times and set alight a few times.
> Also the purpose of a "fire door" (really a smoke stop door) is to
> buy you time. Usually about 15 mins is adequate so most such doors are
> 30min rated. Almost any decent solid wood door will meet or be very
> close to the 30min rating without any cladding, the real risk is egg box
> doors. A solid door clad in asbestos cement will almost certainly meet
> the 30 min time. Fitting an intumescent seal is more important than
> changing one cladding for another.
The doors are solid T&G, and I put sheet galvanised steel over the
outside of the doors and plywood on the inside and put coach bolts
through to hold it all together. I imagine that would be a good "fire
door". There have since been no attempted breakins.
RobertL
Apr 16, 2015, 6:39:40 AM4/16/15
to
On Thursday, January 16, 2014 at 11:54:29 AM UTC, Peter Parry wrote:
> In one case I am aware of a claimant with mesothelioma sued a past
> employer alleging asbestos exposure 40 years ago when he claimed to
> have cut some asbestos sheets to make a tank cladding. There was no
> evidence, other than their statement, that any asbestos containing
> material had ever been handled by the claimant in that employment (he
> was employed as a manager).
A (Canadian) friend of my father's died in the 1980s of mesothelioma. He had worked in the boiler room of a warship during WW2. Apparently, all the steam pipes were lagged with asbestos and when the big guns were firing the whole ship shook and the air in the boiler room looked like a snowstorm (of asbestos fibres).
Robert
> In one case I am aware of a claimant with mesothelioma sued a past
> employer alleging asbestos exposure 40 years ago when he claimed to
> have cut some asbestos sheets to make a tank cladding. There was no
> evidence, other than their statement, that any asbestos containing
> material had ever been handled by the claimant in that employment (he
> was employed as a manager).
A (Canadian) friend of my father's died in the 1980s of mesothelioma. He had worked in the boiler room of a warship during WW2. Apparently, all the steam pipes were lagged with asbestos and when the big guns were firing the whole ship shook and the air in the boiler room looked like a snowstorm (of asbestos fibres).
Robert
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