Patio Heaters and Gas BBQs: Calor's Rip-off Concept: 'Patio Gas' !
Alan Dempster
Just curious to know if those of you who are rich and un eco-friendly enough
to buy a Patio Heater have succumbed to the latest Calor Gas trick of using
the genuine 'Patio Gas' product, or whether people are dumping the supplied
regulator with these things, and then going out to get a conventional
screw-in (Propane) regulator for the standard orange Propane gas bottles?
There seem to be two types of fittings for regulators on Patio Heaters:
- Push fit, designed to take a 13kg green bottle of 'Patio Gas' (pure
propane, but +10% more expensive)
- Traditional screw-fit for Propane, takes standard orange Propane
cylinders, at about £14 for 13kg.
Also would be interested to know which gas cylinder folks prefer for BBQs:
- 13kg Propane, or
- 15kg Butane (blue)
Any insight welcomed!
Alan
Mary Fisher
"Alan Dempster" <alande...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:aa120121.04042...@posting.google.com...
>
> Also would be interested to know which gas cylinder folks prefer for BBQs:
>
> - 13kg Propane, or
> - 15kg Butane (blue)
>
> Any insight welcomed!
If I were using the barbecue in very cold weather (I wouldn't but I'm
getting soft in my dotage) I'd use propane because I know from hard
experience that butane gas freezes at low temperatures. Some clever person
will give the exact temperature here:
Thank you :-)
For using the barbecue in more comfortable temperatures I'd use butane.
Except that, since we use gas for other purposes all the year round we only
use propane for all of them, saves having to have two spares.
Also, we use charcoal for most of our barbecue cooking ... but we do have
two of the double burner gas ones and they're very useful for baking and
roasting when you haven't an oven.
Mary
>
> Alan
Andy Hall
Dempster) wrote:
>Also would be interested to know which gas cylinder folks prefer for BBQs:
>
>- 13kg Propane, or
>- 15kg Butane (blue)
I think you'll find it's defined by the manufacturer.
My (Weber) one is propane only.
>
>Any insight welcomed!
>
>Alan
.andy
To email, substitute .nospam with .gl
Mike Barnes
>If I were using the barbecue in very cold weather (I wouldn't but I'm
>getting soft in my dotage) I'd use propane because I know from hard
>experience that butane gas freezes at low temperatures. Some clever person
ITYM "smart-ass"
>will give the exact temperature here:
-138.33 degrees C
What's more relevant is that it has a high boiling point, -0.5 degrees
C. Below this temperature, when you open the valve, the liquid just sits
in the cylinder quietly chuckling to itself.
For comparison, propane boils at -42 degrees C.
When I used to camp in winter in Scotland, I learned that if I didn't
want a cold breakfast, I had to keep the butane bottle in the bottom of
my sleeping bag overnight.
>Thank you :-)
You're welcome.
--
Mike Barnes
Mary Fisher
"Mike Barnes" <apri...@mikebarnes.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:dGmXBGJT...@g52lk5g23lkgk3lk345g.invalid...
> In uk.d-i-y, Mary Fisher wrote:
> >If I were using the barbecue in very cold weather (I wouldn't but I'm
> >getting soft in my dotage) I'd use propane because I know from hard
> >experience that butane gas freezes at low temperatures. Some clever
person
>
> ITYM "smart-ass"
No, I have the utmost respect for someone who can be bothered to look up
such details when I can't - and don't have them in my head.
>
> >will give the exact temperature here:
>
> -138.33 degrees C
>
> What's more relevant is that it has a high boiling point, -0.5 degrees
> C. Below this temperature, when you open the valve, the liquid just sits
> in the cylinder quietly chuckling to itself.
>
> For comparison, propane boils at -42 degrees C.
>
> When I used to camp in winter in Scotland, I learned that if I didn't
> want a cold breakfast, I had to keep the butane bottle in the bottom of
> my sleeping bag overnight.
Yes, it was in Galloway one Easter, in our tent, when we discovered that the
bottle didn't work. We'd gone to bed wearing all our clothes, even hats, and
with skins and coats over the duvet. When we woke up the water in our glass
was frozen, the water in the kettle and we had to get up and pick up sticks
to light a fire to melt the kettle ice and make tea.
Having spent a couple of Christmases and New Years half way up a mountain in
our little caravan, in snow and ice, we've been grateful for propane. But
the caravan lives there and in summer we want to make proper meals (not just
barbecues), so propane is our gas of choice for all-year-round use.
>
> >Thank you :-)
>
> You're welcome.
:-)
Mary
>
> --
> Mike Barnes
Mary Fisher
"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message
news:f0of80th2vjvevkh0...@4ax.com...
> On 22 Apr 2004 07:56:38 -0700, alande...@hotmail.com (Alan
> Dempster) wrote:
>
>
> >Also would be interested to know which gas cylinder folks prefer for
BBQs:
> >
> >- 13kg Propane, or
> >- 15kg Butane (blue)
>
> I think you'll find it's defined by the manufacturer.
>
> My (Weber) one is propane only.
Can't you fit a different regulator for other bottles?
Mary
Andy Hall
<mary....@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
>"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message
>news:f0of80th2vjvevkh0...@4ax.com...
>> On 22 Apr 2004 07:56:38 -0700, alande...@hotmail.com (Alan
>> Dempster) wrote:
>>
>>
>> >Also would be interested to know which gas cylinder folks prefer for
>BBQs:
>> >
>> >- 13kg Propane, or
>> >- 15kg Butane (blue)
>>
>> I think you'll find it's defined by the manufacturer.
>>
>> My (Weber) one is propane only.
>
>Can't you fit a different regulator for other bottles?
>
>Mary
>>
Possibly, although they do say to only use propane in the manual.
I don't know whether the calorific value is different and perhaps that
affects the appliance rating?
Christian McArdle
>
> - 13kg Propane, or
> - 15kg Butane (blue)
If I did succumb, I run it off natural gas. That way, you don't have to
worry about the canister running out. Also, you don't have to store the
large bottle on the limited patio space.
As it happens, I have a charcoal mini-Chiminea that sits on the table. It
uses renewable fuel (i.e. wood).
Christian.
Andy Hall
Natural gas is as well.... it's purely a matter of timescale ;-)
Mary Fisher
"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message >
>
> I don't know whether the calorific value is different and perhaps that
> affects the appliance rating?
I always feel that butane is hotter but nobody agrees, they all say I'm an
irrational female.
Who am I to argue?
:-)
Mary
Mary Fisher
"Christian McArdle" <cmcar...@nospam.yahooxxxx.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4087ede6$0$25232$ed9e...@reading.news.pipex.net...
Spouse is going to build me an earth oven to cook in but it will be far
bigger than what you have (I can't even pronounce it never mind spell it!).
We're saving and drying timber.
Mary
>
> Christian.
>
>
Set Square
Mary Fisher <mary....@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
> "Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message >
>> Possibly, although they do say to only use propane in the manual.
>>
>> I don't know whether the calorific value is different and perhaps
>> that affects the appliance rating?
>
> I always feel that butane is hotter but nobody agrees, they all say
> I'm an irrational female.
>
> Who am I to argue?
>
> :-)
>
> Mary
I think that butane is usually *cheaper* per unit of energy. Propane has the
advantage that it works in lower temperatures. But if it was cold enough to
need propane, I wouldn't want to be on the patio anyway!
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is Black Hole!
Andy Hall
Is this going to make you an earth mother ? ;-)
Mary Fisher
"Set Square" <d...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:c68v32$9eh4i$1...@ID-217758.news.uni-berlin.de...
> In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
> Mary Fisher <mary....@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > "Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message >
> >> Possibly, although they do say to only use propane in the manual.
> >>
> >> I don't know whether the calorific value is different and perhaps
> >> that affects the appliance rating?
> >
> > I always feel that butane is hotter but nobody agrees, they all say
> > I'm an irrational female.
> >
> > Who am I to argue?
> >
> > :-)
> >
> > Mary
>
> I think that butane is usually *cheaper* per unit of energy. Propane has
the
> advantage that it works in lower temperatures. But if it was cold enough
to
> need propane, I wouldn't want to be on the patio anyway!
If you had under-flag heating you'd be OK ...
Mary
Mary Fisher
> >Spouse is going to build me an earth oven to cook in but it will be far
> >bigger than what you have (I can't even pronounce it never mind spell
it!).
> >We're saving and drying timber.
> >
> >Mary
> >>
>
>
> Is this going to make you an earth mother ? ;-)
Been that for a very long time ... I'm told.
Mary
John
"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message
With the usual disclaimer regarding manufacturers instructions taking
preference over other info its generally true to say that Propane at
37millibars or Butane at 28millibars pressure passed through the same
injectors gives almost identical heat performance. Of course if the book
says only use Propane you will probably have a hell of a job getting anyone
to say otherwise. I've just had a long session getting a cooker manufacturer
to agree the ONLY difference in their Natural Gas and LPG versions of the
same unit is in the injectors. We ended up going through the components list
piece by piece :-(
Steve Walker
We have a gas water heater in a cottage in France. The manufacturer
recommends using one propane bottle or two butane bottles in parallel to
feed it. I think the problem is that with only one bottle, the liquid
boiling to keep up with the high rate of gas usage causes the liquid to
cool too much (latent heat of vaporisation and all that stuff). Propane can
stand the drop in temperature, but to keep butane gassing sufficently, you
have to minimise the temperature drop by only taking half as much from each
bottle.
Steve W
Pete C
<mary....@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
>Yes, it was in Galloway one Easter, in our tent, when we discovered that the
>bottle didn't work. We'd gone to bed wearing all our clothes, even hats, and
>with skins and coats over the duvet. When we woke up the water in our glass
>was frozen, the water in the kettle and we had to get up and pick up sticks
>to light a fire to melt the kettle ice and make tea.
Hi,
If a butane cylinder gets too cold one way to it going is to pee on
it...
cheers,
Pete.
Andrew Simpson
"Alan Dempster" <alande...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:aa120121.04042...@posting.google.com...
Alan,
I went down the initial route of buying a Butane bottle from Shell gas as I
didn't fancy shelling out nearly 35 quid for a calor gas patio gas bottle
from B&Q. All is well with a Butane bottle for up to 2 hours when the gas
seems to magically run out. The next day the bottle seems fully charged and
off it goes again. Then I noticed after an hour of use the bottom half of
the Butane bottle would freeze over. Thats when I found that Butane doesn't
work very well in colder whether (still talking at least 10 degrees though).
I will be switching to Propane gas after being laughed at by a Calor Gas
stockist for trying to use Butane.
Butane apparently is cheaper than propane but try telling my Patio heater
that when it is trying to get the Butane out of the bottle....
Andrew.
Mary Fisher
"Pete C" <pe...@not.my.real.address> wrote in message
news:545g80deabsq6qi1a...@4ax.com...
That might work with a cartridge but not with the size we use. We'd have
added to the ice on the outside. Well, if there were an army to pee on it it
might ...
Mary
>
> cheers,
> Pete.
Mary Fisher
"Steve Walker" <st...@dropthis.theend.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1l10x0ii9equn$.1bbf88xmpruc6.dlg@40tude.net...
>
> We have a gas water heater in a cottage in France. The manufacturer
> recommends using one propane bottle or two butane bottles in parallel to
> feed it. I think the problem is that with only one bottle, the liquid
> boiling to keep up with the high rate of gas usage causes the liquid to
> cool too much (latent heat of vaporisation and all that stuff). Propane
can
> stand the drop in temperature, but to keep butane gassing sufficently, you
> have to minimise the temperature drop by only taking half as much from
each
> bottle.
We have a gas water heater (a Rinnai) in one of our caravans. It didn't
specify any type of gas but there might have been something about pressure -
I leave that sort of techie thing to Spouse <simpers and flutters eyelashes>
OK, I realise that our water heater/space heater/cooker/fridge/lights
combination won't have the same capacity or output as your French cottage
but it works well with one bottle of butane or with one bottle of propane in
most ambient temperatures. I've never, ever, heard of any appliance needing
two bottles in parallel! For what you suggest to happen your rate of usage
must be extremely great. A daughter has used one large bottles of butane in
Wales for fuelling her very large cooker with no problem. In winter she
switches to a bottle of propane - and I think she's considering year-round
propane.
Perhaps the French are over-cautious?
Mary
>
> Steve W
Andy Hall
<bo1l...@ASbtinternet.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>With the usual disclaimer regarding manufacturers instructions taking
>preference over other info its generally true to say that Propane at
>37millibars or Butane at 28millibars pressure passed through the same
>injectors gives almost identical heat performance. Of course if the book
>says only use Propane you will probably have a hell of a job getting anyone
>to say otherwise. I've just had a long session getting a cooker manufacturer
>to agree the ONLY difference in their Natural Gas and LPG versions of the
>same unit is in the injectors. We ended up going through the components list
>piece by piece :-(
>
I'm sure that that's true.
If you look at a typical set of instructions to install a fixed gas
appliance, there is often a set of conversion instructions. The main
thing is to change the injector(s) and perhaps to set the pressure
differently.
Andy Hall
<st...@dropthis.theend.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>We have a gas water heater in a cottage in France. The manufacturer
>recommends using one propane bottle or two butane bottles in parallel to
>feed it. I think the problem is that with only one bottle, the liquid
>boiling to keep up with the high rate of gas usage causes the liquid to
>cool too much (latent heat of vaporisation and all that stuff). Propane can
>stand the drop in temperature, but to keep butane gassing sufficently, you
>have to minimise the temperature drop by only taking half as much from each
>bottle.
>
>Steve W
I believe that hot air balloonists run into this issue. AFAIK, they
have arrangements of parallel connected cylinders with dip tubes into
the liquid and then pipework running close to the flame to boil the
liquid gas.
It all sounds highly dodgy to me..
Mary Fisher
"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message
Steve must be on a very high French mountain to experience that phenomenon.
Mary
Andy Hall
Probably Mont Golfier I would imagine..........
Mary Fisher
> >>
> >> I believe that hot air balloonists run into this issue. AFAIK, they
> >> have arrangements of parallel connected cylinders with dip tubes into
> >> the liquid and then pipework running close to the flame to boil the
> >> liquid gas.
> >>
> >> It all sounds highly dodgy to me..
> >
> >Steve must be on a very high French mountain to experience that
phenomenon.
> >
>
>
> Probably Mont Golfier I would imagine..........
Nice one!
Mary
Pete C
<mary....@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
>> If a butane cylinder gets too cold one way to it going is to pee on
>> it...
>
>That might work with a cartridge but not with the size we use. We'd have
>added to the ice on the outside. Well, if there were an army to pee on it it
>might ...
All that is needed is for the gas in one spot to boil. Blokes are the
ideal candidates for doing this, especially after a night at the pub!
Mike's idea of taking the cartrige to bed is great but I wouldn't want
to do that with a 13kg cylinder...
cheers,
Pete.
Mary Fisher
"Pete C" <pe...@not.my.real.address> wrote in message
> On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 20:06:50 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
> <mary....@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >> If a butane cylinder gets too cold one way to it going is to pee on
> >> it...
> >
> >That might work with a cartridge but not with the size we use. We'd have
> >added to the ice on the outside. Well, if there were an army to pee on it
it
> >might ...
>
> All that is needed is for the gas in one spot to boil. Blokes are the
> ideal candidates for doing this, especially after a night at the pub!
There were none of those raound.
I'm very pleased to say.
>
> Mike's idea of taking the cartrige to bed is great but I wouldn't want
> to do that with a 13kg cylinder...
Quite.
Mary
>
> cheers,
> Pete.
Capitol
Andy Hall wrote in message ...
. AFAIK, they
>have arrangements of parallel connected cylinders with dip tubes into
>the liquid and then pipework running close to the flame to boil the
>liquid gas.
>
>It all sounds highly dodgy to me..
Closely resembles a paraffin blowlamp. They only exploded on very rare
occasions.
Regards
Capitol
PoP
wrote:
>If a butane cylinder gets too cold one way to it going is to pee on
>it...
I can just see Mary hitching up her skirt..... ;)
Err, no, I don't think we need to go there.
PoP
Mary Fisher
"PoP" <p...@anyoldtripe.co.uk> wrote in message
news:jqbg8090l51sojbd4...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 19:56:29 +0100, Pete C <pe...@not.my.real.address>
> wrote:
>
> >If a butane cylinder gets too cold one way to it going is to pee on
> >it...
>
> I can just see Mary hitching up her skirt..... ;)
>
> Err, no, I don't think we need to go there.
I rarely wear them.
Why are you not surprised?
Mary
>
> PoP
>
> ---
> http://www.ukdiy.org.uk
Alan Dempster
Thanks for your input!
I've already deduced that the stuff in the green 'Patio Gas' bottles
(available at vast expense, and only direct from your friendly Calor
dealer) is in fact, just Propane in a different bottle.
The plan now is to get a standard fit Propane regulator with a
thumbwheel (rather than a hexagonal nut - saves searching for a
spanner whilst pissed up at 10:30pm on a freezing summer's evening)
and enjoy the cheaper running costs of standard cylinders, available
from lots of petrol stations.
Still irritates me that Calor try and con the punter, though!
I will run the new BBQ off Propane too, more than likely..
Best,
Alan
Owain
| If a butane cylinder gets too cold one way to it going is to pee on
| it...
I've heard the old story about what happens when you lick a metal gate when
it's freezing. There's no way I'd risk pissing on a frozen canister :-)
Owain
Owain
| I believe that hot air balloonists run into this issue. AFAIK,
| they have arrangements of parallel connected cylinders with dip
| tubes into the liquid and then pipework running close to the
| flame to boil the liquid gas.
| It all sounds highly dodgy to me..
It's just as well hot-air balloons don't use mains gas. Think what CORGI
would have to say on the matter.
Owain
MBQ
And petrol camping stoves.
MBQ
Steve Walker
That's the manufacturers recommendation and we have found that if we try to
run off just one butane bottle, the hot water output drops considerably
after a short while.
Steve W
Steve Walker
Well it'e a bloody big hill to walk up, but no we're not that high.
I must admit to being mighty impressed by the water supply there though.
We've never checked the pressure, but even though we're at the top of the
hill, we get a shower powerful enough to almost hurt - and that's with a 5
centime piece with a 3mm hole in it acting as a restrictor on the shower
hose!
Steve W
Steve Walker
I seem to remember the heater is about 28kW and needs a regulator capable
of 4kg per hour. It's obviously not running for very long each time and a
16kg bottle of propane usually lasts us around a fortnight (two people,
plus cooking, not usually much heating unless we go at Christmas).
Steve W
use...@isbd.co.uk
gas' and bottled gas. All you have to do is change the jets to change
from one to the other (well, this was all it said one had to do in the
instructions for our Belling hob). I don't think it even said that I
*mustn't* do it (i.e. the standard CORGI bit), it was almost regarded as a
'user' adjustment.
--
Chris Green
geoff
<pe...@not.my.real.address> writes
--
geoff