The choice is almost limitless and there is so much info on the web.
So instead of asking people what they'd recommend I thought it would
be more interesting and revealing to ask what they'd do differently
next time around. In other words what went wrong for you or didn't
live up to expectations.
Thanks for taking the time to reply.
Don't get gloss laminate worktops. Even if you think they'll be fine.
Sadly, agreed :(
And don't get black Bushboard ones - they show every mark :-(
"graham" <gra...@raddlebarn.free-online.co.uk> wrote in message
Not technicaly differently, it's what we did in the last place, and miss
in the new place:
Get units that go right back to the wall. Losing 2" off the back of
each unit for pipes/cables that only run behind a couple of units is a
complete waste of space, and often doesn't work anyway - to reach wehere
they need to got the pipes must still come into the cupboard which
defeats the object.
Fit plinth drawers - originally only ikea ones but i think they're
available elsewhere now - they add quite a lot of extra storage.
Consider putting the worktops the right height for you especially if
Spamtrap in use
To email replace 127.0.0.1 with btinternet dot com
And don't get the 40mm think ones, unless you are built like Arnie
or the worktops are not too large.
One thing I did differently from normal was mounting the tap for
an inset sink. I positioned the sink as far forward as I could,
and mounted the tap in the worktop in the gap created at the back.
This avoided the problem I've seen in a few other kitchens where
the tap wobbles around on the rather thin stainless steel sink.
Well clipped copper pipe on the taps stops that.
If you have any, Lego is good for this, you can make up standard size
units, and then move them around the scale model of your kitchen until
you get something that works well. Then you can go and annoy the sales
To Reply :
replace "news" with "adrian" and "nospam" with "ffoil"
Sorry for the rigmarole, If I want spam, I'll go to the shops
Every time someone says "I don't believe in trolls", another one dies.
I did a 2 x 3.6m galley style kitchen with a 900mm cut out in the centre
of one worktop for a stainless hob and a standard sink cutout on the
other worktop. both 40mm thick, cut down from 4.1m
piece of piss.
get three different companies in to produce the plans. don't use any
of the companies, just use their plans. try to get ready built nylon welded
units, built to tight spec. reject anything you don't like for whatever reason.
don't start the job until you have all tools and all materials on site. allow
20% more £ for fuckups. buy the best jigsaw you can afford.
Speaking of worktops what are peoples views about the premium
surfaces, acrylic, quartz granite etc. They look nice but are they
worth the expense?
Also what are the "nylon welded units" that were mentioned in the
previous post? I've not heard of that before.
Finally Ikea units have been well spoken of in the past. Is this
praise still valid?
Thanks again for all your advice.
The one thing I'd say is stay away from laminated chipboard. You end
up paying for a ktichen fit several times per life that way, when you
could pay just once and have it in a quality material.
Id not bother asking SWMBO what she wanted, for a start.
Given the amount of gadgets she uses to make a boiled egg, i'd probably
put in full height cupboards with shelves in the doors, and at the
back..thousands of them.
I wouldn't bother with a picture book butlers sink and wooden tops, with
someone who was really only used to stainless steel and formica either.
Probably have to rip it all out and redo it. ;-)
I'd put a 13A mains socket every 3 inches, so that whatever layout she
finally came up with every time she changed her mind wouldn't have been
I wouldn't install a microwave with a grill part, that could be left on
'grill' randomly to melt the plastic container of the things I wanted to
I probably wouldn't install a very expensive slate floor, to have it
covered in cheap rugs..
I wouldn't bother with a dishwasher either..washing up takes longer than
when the last one was permanently broken. And the thing I always want to
use is never washed up when I want it.
I'd insist on it being painted the same color as the mud that the wet
dogs tails slap on it, and probably recognize that a dirt floor of
hardened mud and sawdust was more practical - just change the sawdust
once a week.
I would install an even bigger TV.
I would however keep the Aga. And its attendant electric part..that
actually makes a very good kitchen heater. It an be used to cook as well.
I'd put in more bookshelves for the cookery books, and a letter rack for
the post, and somewhere to put the magazines and newspapers that are
always lying around on the expensive worktops, so you can't actually use
them to cook.
But I doubt that any of this would work: It seems to be that women will
acquire stuff and leave it lying around on every horizontal surface
irrespective of whether it has any use or functionality. The only
solution seems to be to remove all horizontal surfaces.
Whereas a man tends to say 'what can I do without, to save finding
somewhere to put it' a woman says 'what can I buy and HE will make a
place to put it'
Matte granite or stainless steel come oy the best to date.
> Spend a bit more time planning the kitchen layout, even if that means
> spending time with the annoying sales staff in the sheds whilst they mock up
> the fourth variant for you their 3D software - at least it's a free service
> and you get to walk off with the colour print outs.
I'd say ignore the B&Q planning service, they are keen and appear
helpful, but only want to do it "their way", use google sketchup and DIY.
Don't buy too cheap. I have had to replace some of our B&Q doors 3 times
within 18 months of fitting due to the chipboard absorbing moisture and
swelling up. Not fit for purpose, it's a kitchen and will get damp in use!
When choosing worktop materials ask this simple question. If I knock
over an expensive crystal wine glass onto the worktop will it smash?
Granite, probably. Veneered wood chip, probably not.
Mixer taps are a waste of water and unhygienic.
Want cold water? Then run the tap until the hot has been flushed away.
Want hot water? Run the tap until the cold has been flushed away. Want
hot water again? Run the tap........... etc.
Any nasty crap from the hot water tank ( you wouldn't drink form it
normally would you?) will get trapped buy the filter/water homogenizer
on the end of your mixer tap and stay there causing nasty looking
biofilms to develop and contaminating your drinking water.
Make quite sure the appliances can go where you plan them to. Things like
washing machines and dishwashers have very little space to run services
*If I throw a stick, will you leave?
Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
I would concur with a lot of this - the mixer tap stuff is a bit arbitrary -
when I want cold I run the tap anyway until it really is cold and when I
want hot likewise - the little but of run off in the mixer tap itself is
irrelevant to what I flush out through the pipework. He has a thing about
biofilms, I wouldn't worry! That's for the kitchen of course, in the utility
I would avoid normal sinks. You can buy "laundry room" sinks - these are
deeper. Here I would put separate taps for flow rate and convenience. The
combination of deep sink and slightly high rise single taps makes filling
buckets and other large containers easier, handwashing clothes easier,
cleaning football boots easier etc., etc. These sinks are pricier but well
worth it. THINK about the lighting in total - combination of ceiling mounted
flood lighting and under cupboard lighting for example - don't create dark
areas where you will be working because you are between the work and the
light - it's very irritating! The "kitchen triangle" is a cliche but for a
good reason (arrange sink, cooker fridge in a triangle). Maximise work
surface - does food processor have to live on work surface, likewise
microwave. Where's the phone going?
Following on from Rob's points about granite w/s, think about the floor. Yes
it must be easily cleanable but some ceramic tiles become lethal skid areas
when wet - do you really want that? and anything breakable dropped WILL
break. /ducks/ I think you can do worse than patterned vinyl and putting up
with changing it, although tiles do look nicer. Slate etc not so slippy but
stuff still smashes. Flotex lovely in a couple of respects and pants
otherwise (I know).
Is there room to hang one of those let-downable clothes dryer frames from
the utility ceiling? They are very useful.
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)
Oh yes - in a similar vein - make sure the work surface is high enough for
the washing machine (for example) AND any future flooring you may lay (don't
ask :o( ).
If you're thinking of 'wide' drawers, (900mm-1m wide) - check the
loadings though - a drawer full of cast iron pots and stonebake
cookware is *heavy*.
As per another post - check the worktop height carefully. As a general
guide, if you stand with your upper arm at your side, and your elbow
at 90 degrees - with your hand and forearm horizontal in front of you,
the worktop should be 3" or 75mm below your elbow. For a hob unit drop
this to 150mm lower. (the pan rests will bring the height up to what
is comfortable in use. (will obviously vary according to type of hob,
but you want to be able to work 'inside' the pans in comfort.)
If you're (or SWMBO) are even marginally 'tall' - say 5' 10" or above,
this would, at one time, have almost certainly precluded the use of
standard units though, but this may have changed in the last 5 years.
Check how high the feet can go, and that plinth is available to suit.
Hope your installation goes smoothly
The alternative solution is to remove the women and learn to do your own
I had many happy years in that state..sigh.
I wouldn't. Mixer taps from mains water doesn't carry nasties from tanks
and cylinders. That is why it is best to heat water isntantly via a heat
bank/thermal store, multi-point or combi.
The dead-leg pipe can be eliminated by various methods.
Hope for your sake, that she doesn't read USENET!
That's essential for every height.
It also applies to sinks, but it's a difficulat problem.
Our units turn three corners and in each there
is a vertical stack of pivoting wire baskets.
The Boss has come to really dislike, (hate even),
What are the group's thoughts on better ways to
access the storage space in the corners?
We had no problems at all with B&Q, delivered on time and no omissions
or breakages. If buying from B&Q, pay extra for the premium drawer
Buy the pneumatic door stops to stop doors banging.
> Mixer taps are a waste of water and unhygienic.
> Any nasty crap from the hot water tank ( you wouldn't drink form it
> normally would you?) will get trapped buy the filter/water homogenizer
> on the end of your mixer tap and stay there causing nasty looking
> biofilms to develop and contaminating your drinking water.
A total non-issue in reality. How many cases of illness due to mixer
taps are there?
Do you use anti-bacterial wipes to clean all the surfaces? Any
problems are probably more to do with being *too* hygenic and not
giving the bodies natural defense mechanism a chance to develop.
A kitchen should be clean enough to be healthy and dirty enough to be
Then Mr Nads and Mr Angle Grinder won't be having an unfortunate meeting at
3 in the morning ;->
> Also what are the "nylon welded units" that were mentioned in the
> previous post? I've not heard of that before.
Magnet used to do ready built units made to order. they were advertised
as nylon welded (industrial hot glue gun) and were backed by a 30 year
guarantee, reinsured at Lloyds.
on our first house, I wanted to have a 'ready built nylon welded kitchen
with a 30 year guarantee' - in maple with blue panels. SWMBO wanted
a green kitchen and she chose one from wickes :-(
that's the last time SWMBO was obeyed.
It's not that heavy, and the thinner stuff looks cheap and isn't all
that strong if it bridges a big gap (e.g. 2 appliances next to each
ikea's aoftware certainly used to be a free download from their
website. Even if you don't like them and have alreday ruled them out as
a supplier it would help with the layout.
Certainly is. "Standard" height is most suitable for below the current
average (based on the average female a few decades ago IIRC). If the
worktops are a bit high then a least the sink won't be too far off, if
the worktops are too low, the sink gives you backache in minutes.
But of course if there are 2 of you with a significant height difference
there's not a lot you can do about it.
> ikea's aoftware certainly used to be a free download from their
> website. Even if you don't like them and have alreday ruled them out as
> a supplier it would help with the layout.
yes, it's ok to a point, I couldn't see how to tell it about out-of-true
walls though, you can with sketchup.
I like the (practical) design compared to the B+Q and Moores (don't know
who atually made them) ones I've seen, and they seemed robust. As
hinted in my other post I think they make decent use of space and would
consider them again if DIYing the shopping/delivery experience was
tedious and at times irritating though - but they delivered everything
we ordered in good condition and in one go (plus a few extra legs and
hinges). As for ease of building, the bits I found time and effort
consuming were the bits you#d have to do pretty much the same whoever
you bought from.
you droped this: "piece of piss"
Not really my thinking, my father used it in 1977. Back then, as memory
serves, the idea of flat pack kitchens was just starting to take off and
design software was a thing of the future (*), so you pretty well had to
do your own design and take it to the sales droid.
(*) thread drift, talking of things in the future. Earlier that year we
went to a Faraday lecture where they were talking about people sitting
in front of their TV screens with a keyboard accessing their bank
accounts. We came away thinking that was stretching the bounds of
imagination just a bit far.
To Reply :
replace "news" with "adrian" and "nospam" with "ffoil"
Sorry for the rigmarole, If I want spam, I'll go to the shops
Every time someone says "I don't believe in trolls", another one dies.
>>>>And don't get the 40mm think ones, unless you are built like Arnie
>>>>or the worktops are not too large.
>>>I did a 2 x 3.6m galley style kitchen with a 900mm cut out in the centre
>>>of one worktop for a stainless hob and a standard sink cutout on the
>>>other worktop. both 40mm thick, cut down from 4.1m
>>It's not that heavy, and the thinner stuff looks cheap and isn't all
>>that strong if it bridges a big gap (e.g. 2 appliances next to each
> you droped this: "piece of piss"
Well I wouldn't go quite that far, so what I really dropped was <snip> :)
I don't think they have out of true walls in sweden :)
I nearly did that to meself once with a router though..got caught in my
jeans in the spin down..stopped a few mm short of both the femoral
artery and the nadgers ... ruined the jeans, but I was unscathed..lucky
Corner wall mounted cuboards where the doors open from the centre of
the right angle are a total pain in the arse making it virtually
impossible to see whats in the cupboard
My son in law has installed Wickes corner cupboards with two doors mounted
on the outer corners of the right angle. These work fine.
Dave Fawthrop <dave hyphenologist co uk> Google Groups is IME the *worst*
method of accessing usenet. GG subscribers would be well advised get a
newsreader, say Agent, and a newsserver, say news.individual.net. These
will allow them: to see only *new* posts, a killfile, and other goodies.
I had beech worktops from IKEA. Seemed like a great idea at the time.
Way too much hassle to maintain.
Agreed also, about gloss worktops, sure to show scratches in no time.
I got proper Formica matt ones and they're fine.
Got all my appliances off Ebay and it's worked out great. Saved
How are the carcasses in the kitchen? If they're sound and you like
the layout, just change the doors (also got those from Ebay).
Would recommend finding a kitchen fitter if it's going to be more than
just new doors.
Good luck with it.
As an alternative to the Ikea planner try http://www.kitchendraw.com - you
get 30 hours use free - I found that in a couple of hours I could get a very
realistic drawing, better in many ways than the ones a salesman provided.
These are from Wickes as well, each to their own I guess!
While I think of it, although you can modify Ikea bases to allow pipes
to run behind them, you hit a problem with the carousel, which needs
almost the full cabinet depth to function.
>> will get trapped buy the filter/water homogenizer
>> on the end of your mixer tap and stay there causing nasty looking
>> biofilms to develop and contaminating your drinking water.
> A total non-issue in reality. How many cases of illness due to mixer
> taps are there?
Quite. Also, I wonder if the poster has ever seen the sludge in a cold water
> Do you use anti-bacterial wipes to clean all the surfaces? Any
> problems are probably more to do with being *too* hygenic and not
> giving the bodies natural defense mechanism a chance to develop.
> A kitchen should be clean enough to be healthy and dirty enough to be
>On Jan 30, 7:07 pm, "graham" <gra...@raddlebarn.free-online.co.uk>
>> We are looking at replacing the furniture in both our kitchen and
>> utility room. This will be only my second installation so am a little
>> green around the ears.
>> The choice is almost limitless and there is so much info on the web.
>> So instead of asking people what they'd recommend I thought it would
>> be more interesting and revealing to ask what they'd do differently
>> next time around. In other words what went wrong for you or didn't
>> live up to expectations.
>> Thanks for taking the time to reply.
>I had beech worktops from IKEA. Seemed like a great idea at the time.
>Way too much hassle to maintain.
I had those too and they were fine. I followed the rule of "Oil once a
day for a week, once a week for a month, once a month for a year, once
a year for life" No problems ten year later and they get hard wear.
Mind you I'm not one of the 'home like a showroom' brigade
If you have any 60cm over unit cupboards then dont buy 60cm doors for
them. Instead get two 30cm doors so they open over the worktop and you
dont keep finding yourself on the wrong side of the door as it opens
and/or hitting your head on it
~~ Anna Kettle, Suffolk, England
|""""| ~ Lime plaster repair and conservation
/ ^^ \ // Freehand modelling in lime: overmantels, pargeting etc
|____| www.kettlenet.co.uk 01359 230642
Anna, your suggestion about the doors sounds a really good idea.
Thanks, and thank you too to everyone who's replied to my original
question. Your messages have been very welcome.
Nods. Did that, 'Superdeep' bowl IIRC. Plus 1/4-turn pillar taps with 4"
levers are perfect for when you've got mucky hands.... If I ever do it
again, I'll do the same.
> /ducks/ I think you can do worse than patterned vinyl and putting up
> with changing it,
I did that, mostly because I couldn't face ripping up the Marley tiles
and dealing with the bitumen......
Won't do it again though, it marks easily if you drop anything on it and
it's a ubggre moving the fridge/freezer or washing machine etc. 'cos the
wheels sink in and there's precious little ground clearance (I've
already ripped it slightly shifting the fridge to mop up some spillage).
Go for a hard surface every time.
> Is there room to hang one of those let-downable clothes dryer frames from
> the utility ceiling? They are very useful.
Oh yes, the 'pulley'. My Gran had one when I was a kid and when I
spotted the 'irons' in an old-fashioned ironmonger's, it had to be done.
As you say, very handy.
Don't. Bung the stuff you never use in there and get on with your life :o)
> Tony Williams wrote:
>> Our units turn three corners and in each there
>> is a vertical stack of pivoting wire baskets.
>> The Boss has come to really dislike, (hate even),
>> these baskets.
>> What are the group's thoughts on better ways to
>> access the storage space in the corners?
While browsing in the kitchen section of John Lewis, Oxford St, my wife was
'taken' with the idea of these; -
'LeMans' plastic corner unit shelves which sorta 'wiggled out' from the
It looked quite substantial, mounts to the cabinet with sturdy hinge/support
arms and seemed to afford rather better access to the shelves than the
'Magic Corner units' we've got currently in the two corners of a U-shaped
Accessible, yes, but have you estimated how much of the plan area
is actually being used?
When I inherited a carousel rack, and was short of space, I
simply ditched it, put in a fixed shelf on one leg of the "L",
and was able to get far more in the cupboard. Yes, the stuff at
the back was a bit of a pain to get to, but as the alternative
was not being able to store it at all, it seemed a fair balance.
I'm sure that I have seen rectangular basket systems with a
clever mechanism which makes use of more of the available space,
but can't remember more.
I have also seen some corner units where the door front is at 45
degrees to the walls, providing oodles of room, but it is clearly
all down to long arms.
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK
Have dancing shoes, will ceilidh.
> Andy Burns wrote:
>> Chris Hodges wrote:
>>> ikea's aoftware certainly used to be a free download from their
>>> website. Even if you don't like them and have alreday ruled them out
>>> as a supplier it would help with the layout.
>> yes, it's ok to a point, I couldn't see how to tell it about
>> out-of-true walls though, you can with sketchup.
> I don't think they have out of true walls in sweden :)
Certainly with the price of alcohol, you wouldn't expect anything to be pissed.
Another nice 'dont' for everyone. Dont house a water softener in a
standard chipboard carcass. The chipboard, and everything else in
there, gets salt contaminated. Salt is hygroscopic, so before you know
it youve got wet chipboard carcasses. Well, you can guess what happens
> > Another nice 'dont' for everyone. Dont house a water softener in a
> > standard chipboard carcass. The chipboard, and everything else in
> > there, gets salt contaminated. Salt is hygroscopic, so before you know
> > it youve got wet chipboard carcasses. Well, you can guess what happens
> > then.
> > NT
> I don't understand !
> My salt is delivered in stout plastic packages (2 * 4kg blocks) and the
> blocks are inserted directly into the softener with no 'contamination' of
> the cupboard occurring. What am I doing wrong?
This one used granular salt, and you've only got to spill one granule
and it all goes tits up. Sweeping up carefully is all well and good,
but over the years there will be escapees.
> What are the group's thoughts on better ways to
> access the storage space in the corners?
We only have one corner unit but it's a "straight" one with a normal
door and a shelf. there are 4 plastic boxes on wheels in there with
'producte in. the ones at the back get used less. It would work just
as well for cake tins, rarely used pans, tupperware or mixers.
- two full sinks, one of them extra deep. Filling buckets, washing
baking trays etc etc so much easier. they're welded into a steel
- a second "kitchen triangle" for the dishwasher. it needs to be
close the eating area and the plate storage NOT to the sink.
- Karndean floor is a good compromise between looks and breakages.
Most people mistake ours for stone.
- good quality units with lots of drawers
Wouldn't do again/could do better.
- the steel worktop doesn't have a dripstop edge or built in drainer.
Wife still likes it. I think it was a mistake.
- ignore the bins. We didn't design with a bin for recycling.
- we raised everything as much as possible with the units we have but
the worktops are still too low for me.
- wouldn't worry about getting solid oak doors for longevity (only to
find out that the manufacturer veneered them)
Ah; thanks! I've only ever used block-salt; although the softener unit
itself is 'bi-lingual' and will accept granular. Whenever I've come to
re-order time, I've 'considered' ordering granular salt but your observation
has decided me to remain with block salt.