Thread size of safety-belt fitting bolts?
John Stumbles
Transit to replace the single seat it came with and 2 of its fixings are in
different places from the original. There are holes in the right place in
the floor for these fixings, and they have 'nuts' welded to the floorpan -
but they have no threads! Presumably it was £0.001 cheaper to arrange to
tap out only the ones for the desired seat configuration than to tap them
all out anyway, or summat.
Anyway I need to tap out one which looks like a regular M6 and one larger
one which looks like the size of the bolts used for seat-belt anchor
points. Anyone know what size/thread that would be? And where to get a tap
reasonably priced for a one-off use?
And a bonus for 10, what size is the torx (looks like...) fastener Ford use
on seat belt anchors? The floor-mounted seat belt receptacle on a stalk
faces the wrong direction for the new seat and it would be useful to
rotate it a bit. But it's got this mega-torx.
--
John Stumbles
Bob the builder / it'll cost 'yer
Bob the builder / loadsa dosh
Mrcheerful
Are you sure that the thread is not filled with a tubular plastic plug? I
have never seen a blank nut fitted, the nuts are tapped before being
attached. The thread size is a peculiar old english size, I can check
exactly what tomorrow, but I am fairly convinced the thread will already be
there ! As to the torx size it is probably a 50.
geoff
<nbk...@hotmail.com> writes
>John Stumbles wrote:
>> F*cking cheapskate Ford! Just bought a double passenger seat for my
>> 2000 Transit to replace the single seat it came with and 2 of its
>> fixings are in different places from the original. There are holes in
>> the right place in the floor for these fixings, and they have 'nuts'
>> welded to the floorpan - but they have no threads! Presumably it was
>> £0.001 cheaper to arrange to tap out only the ones for the desired
>> seat configuration than to tap them all out anyway, or summat.
>>
>> Anyway I need to tap out one which looks like a regular M6 and one
>> larger one which looks like the size of the bolts used for seat-belt
>> anchor points. Anyone know what size/thread that would be? And where
>> to get a tap reasonably priced for a one-off use?
>>
>> And a bonus for 10, what size is the torx (looks like...) fastener
>> Ford use on seat belt anchors? The floor-mounted seat belt receptacle
>> on a stalk faces the wrong direction for the new seat and it would be
>> useful to rotate it a bit. But it's got this mega-torx.
>
>Are you sure that the thread is not filled with a tubular plastic plug? I
>have never seen a blank nut fitted, the nuts are tapped before being
>attached.
Had one on the connector of my (£200) graphics card a couple of weeks
ago - bastards - took a while to register
just thought you might like to know ... ATI - Ford of the computer
world
> The thread size is a peculiar old english size, I can check
>exactly what tomorrow, but I am fairly convinced the thread will already be
>there ! As to the torx size it is probably a 50.
>
>
--
geoff
SimonJ
> Transit to replace the single seat it came with and 2 of its fixings are
> in
> different places from the original. There are holes in the right place in
> the floor for these fixings, and they have 'nuts' welded to the floorpan -
> but they have no threads! Presumably it was £0.001 cheaper to arrange to
> tap out only the ones for the desired seat configuration than to tap them
> all out anyway, or summat.
>
cutting bolts when fitting the seats in the factory.
Mike
wrote:
Despite metrification seat belts anchors have remained imperial
7/16 -20 UNF Ebay 370168218339 £3.95 (not my listing, no connection
etc)
--
Roger Mills
Mrcheerful <nbk...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Are you sure that the thread is not filled with a tubular plastic
> plug? I have never seen a blank nut fitted, the nuts are tapped
> before being attached. The thread size is a peculiar old english
> size, I can check exactly what tomorrow, but I am fairly convinced
> the thread will already be there ! As to the torx size it is
> probably a 50.
I don't know about Ford specifically, but I think everyone has been metric
for quite a few years. The seatbelt reels on my Volvo V70 are held in with
M14 bolts.
In the good old days, the standard size was 7/16" UNF which is what you're
probably thinking of. It seems very unlikely that anyone is still using UNF
threads on motor vehicles.
--
Cheers,
Roger
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John Stumbles
> Are you sure that the thread is not filled with a tubular plastic plug?
Er, it was, I prised it out. It was only when I felt the inside of the
bore with a small screwdriver that I convinced myself that it was smooth
and it wasn't just my eyesight missing a thread!
--
John Stumbles
I've got nothing against racists - I just wouldn't want my daughter to marry one
The Medway Handyman
Never knew such things existed. Just had a quick Google around & found lots
of info. Thanks for that, interesting.
--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
Mike
For fixing into composites or interior trim then yes you might use
thread forming fasteners, but in no way would that be acceptable for
metal to metal fixings as it would compromise corrosion resistance.
As for using something similar for a seat belt mount. It's totally off
limits, the possibility of process failure on a production line and
the subsequent rework costs are just too high. It's not a case of
fitting a nut and washer on the underside, or rewelding a new nut
plate - it's a scrapped bodyshell, removal from the production line,
plus all the work carried and components fitted.
To the OP, it's possible your threads are there, they might be filled
in with excess primer/topcoat.
--
John Stumbles
> To the OP, it's possible your threads are there, they might be filled
> in with excess primer/topcoat.
Don't think so, I ran a screwdriver over the bore and there wasn't a hint
of a thread there. And the paint didn't look as if it had been trowelled
on (would have been awaste of £0.00001 of paint and Ford would never have
allowed that to happen :-/)
Grimly Curmudgeon
drugs began to take hold. I remember John Stumbles
<john.s...@ntlworld.com> saying something like:
>On Sun, 08 Mar 2009 22:19:01 +0000, Mike wrote:
>
>> To the OP, it's possible your threads are there, they might be filled
>> in with excess primer/topcoat.
>
>Don't think so, I ran a screwdriver over the bore and there wasn't a hint
>of a thread there. And the paint didn't look as if it had been trowelled
>on (would have been awaste of £0.00001 of paint and Ford would never have
>allowed that to happen :-/)
Costing is the answer. I bet it costs an extra 2cents per threaded nut
over an unthreaded and Ford know exactly what seats are being fitted
before a shell hits the line. In the vast majority of vans leaving the
factory with a single passenger seat, a wider seat will never be fitted,
so it's a waste of money using threaded nuts.
I would not be surprised if the following happens...
For retro-fitting seats, the dealer will have a task sheet for the
fitter to follow, including running a tap down the blank insert.
moray
"Mike" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:kdg8r494pc03iujfa...@4ax.com...
Why do you think the ar$e still rots out of transits?
Was under a 56 plate last week, and it was already showing signs of rust.
It will probably be a self-tapping bolt.
Best option is to go to the dealer and order the proper bolt, and then
you'll know for sure what thread it is, and if it cuts it's own thread.
Brad Thrust
Correct. You guessed it right first time.
Just bought a double passenger seat for my 2000
>> Transit to replace the single seat it came with and 2 of its fixings are
>> in
>> different places from the original. There are holes in the right place in
>> the floor for these fixings, and they have 'nuts' welded to the
>> floorpan -
>> but they have no threads! Presumably it was £0.001 cheaper to arrange to
>> tap out only the ones for the desired seat configuration than to tap them
>> all out anyway, or summat.
Another correct guess.
> More than likely they are all unthreaded from new, and they use thread
> cutting bolts when fitting the seats in the factory.
This one is right too. The seat belt supplier supplies the belt assembly
complete with Thread Rolling Bolts (TRBs) which are inserted with a driver.
They form the thread on the way in. (All seat belts are subject to ES
testing once the bolts are inserted. Removal of them may cause deformation
to the nut insert)
Tip - when you insert the bolt, make sure you do it right first time! (Yes,
I've worked for a seatbelt supplier and a co next to both European Transit
plants...)
PCPaul
>
> It will probably be a self-tapping bolt. Best option is to go to the
> dealer and order the proper bolt, and then you'll know for sure what
> thread it is, and if it cuts it's own thread.
OTOH one from a dealer might actually be a 'replacement after it's been
disturbed' bolt, hence *not* designed to self cut, but instead to maybe
be a tighter fit in the already-cut threads..
SimonJ
>>cutting bolts when fitting the seats in the factory.
>
> For fixing into composites or interior trim then yes you might use
> thread forming fasteners, but in no way would that be acceptable for
> metal to metal fixings as it would compromise corrosion resistance.
>
> As for using something similar for a seat belt mount. It's totally off
> limits, the possibility of process failure on a production line and
> the subsequent rework costs are just too high. It's not a case of
> fitting a nut and washer on the underside, or rewelding a new nut
> plate - it's a scrapped bodyshell, removal from the production line,
> plus all the work carried and components fitted.
>
or off limits!
dennis@home
"Mike" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:kdg8r494pc03iujfa...@4ax.com...
> For fixing into composites or interior trim then yes you might use
> thread forming fasteners, but in no way would that be acceptable for
> metal to metal fixings as it would compromise corrosion resistance.
That isn't true.
Taptite thread rolling screws are used all over BT exchanges because they
don't easily cause corrosion.
Duncan Wood
Don't confuse them with the difference between high tensile thread forming
bolts & self tapping pan head screws, it'll get in the way of the rant.
(Obviously it's not actually going to stop somebody tapping them out &
using a 4.6 bolt to attach the seat because Ford want £12 for a set of the
proper bolts)
John Stumbles
>> More than likely they are all unthreaded from new, and they use thread
>> cutting bolts when fitting the seats in the factory.
I've just looked at the M6-ish bolts I took out and they do indeed look
like tri-lobe thread-cutting types. That'll do for the smaller blank
hole: I'll grease up one of the now-spare bolts and drive that in.
I'm not going to even try that on the seat-belt-sized one though: I've
ordered the tap set that Mike pointed out for sale on ebay and I'll tap it
out properly. Now if I can only find where I put my stash of seat-belt
bits and pieces (including bolts) I tidied up a while back ...
--
John Stumbles
I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous
Duncan Wood
Why would you want to tap it, that'll give you a weaker thread than
rolling it?
John Stumbles
> Why would you want to tap it, that'll give you a weaker thread than
> rolling it?
Why would a cut thread with a normal bolt be weaker than one made with a
thread-forming bolt?
But the reason I want to tap it is I don't have any thread-forming bolts
of that size whereas I do have normal bolts (if I can find them) and a tap
set (when it arrives).
--
John Stumbles
Who's *really* behind all these conspiracy theories?
Duncan Wood
<john.s...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Mar 2009 18:49:20 +0000, Duncan Wood wrote:
>
>> Why would you want to tap it, that'll give you a weaker thread than
>> rolling it?
>
> Why would a cut thread with a normal bolt be weaker than one made with a
> thread-forming bolt?
>
> But the reason I want to tap it is I don't have any thread-forming bolts
> of that size whereas I do have normal bolts (if I can find them) and a
> tap
> set (when it arrives).
>
Because you've cut it, forming a thread conveniently leaves the root in
compression which minimises the tendency to fracture. Plus if you look
thread forming bolts tend to be 10.9 or 12.9, not "normal bolts". & as
they've formed the thread it's undersize, so they self lock. You can just
buy them from Ford, the ends are in free space so 2nd hand ones tend to be
corroded past useful unless you find a fairly new van. Ideally you're
never going to try loading them, but you'd really like them to hold if you
do.
Chris Whelan
> On Tue, 10 Mar 2009 18:49:20 +0000, Duncan Wood wrote:
>
>> Why would you want to tap it, that'll give you a weaker thread than
>> rolling it?
>
> Why would a cut thread with a normal bolt be weaker than one made with a
> thread-forming bolt?
It wouldn't necessarily if you used a tap in a hole of the correct size
for that tap.
If you use a tap in a hole that is intended to be threaded with a thread-
forming bolt, it may well be sub-optimal. The required sizes are likely
to be different; the larger the thread size, the more significant this
may be. You would need to look in engineering handbooks and manufacturers
catalogues if you want to be certain.
Also, the way the thread is formed will give different pull-out values.
> But the reason I want to tap it is I don't have any thread-forming bolts
> of that size whereas I do have normal bolts (if I can find them) and a
> tap set (when it arrives).
Back in the real world (of car seat belt mountings at least), that's
exactly what I would do.
Chris
--
Remove prejudice to reply.
John Stumbles
Thanks folks. I'll see if I can find a nut of the correct thread to put on
to back up the one cut in the floor insert. Or check out the availability
(and outrageousness of pricing ) of a thread-forming bolt and torx adapter
to drive it with.
--
John Stumbles
"I used to think correlation implied causation.
Then I took a statistics course and now I don't."
"Sounds as if the statistics course helped."
"Well, maybe."
Bruce
>
>Thanks folks. I'll see if I can find a nut of the correct thread to put on
>to back up the one cut in the floor insert.
There are plenty of companies offering parts for camper conversions of
panel vans who stock the necessary parts.
For example:
http://tinyurl.com/dgqxvs