chimney breast removed, need to assess structural integrity

[teracir]

hi,

i am a new member here and i have question for people who deal with
property buying and selling. i am selling a property and the homebuyer
survey has showen that the downstairs chimney has been removed but it
is still in place on the first floor. i have been asked to get it
checked to see if it is structually spported.

can someone please advice on how i go about doing this. i can either
get a surveyor to have a look at it or a structual engineer. i don't
understand what the difference is between the two and how would be more
useful for my situation.

i think i have read elseware on the forum that i can get a structural
engineer in and have the chimney inspected.

thanks for your help in advance

max

--
teracir

[Tim S]

teracir wrote:

Hi

If there is doubt that it is done properly, I personally would get a
structural engineer.

A surveyor, IMO, isn't up to the job. An engineer is the bloke who would be
able to ratify/condemn any structural part of the building, whether it was
done in a standard way or not, within reason.

A surveyor may feel happy commenting if a modification was done in a
standard way - but I'd go for the engineer. Try yellow pages and phone a
few and see if they will quote for inspection. IFAIK, the engineer should
be backed by insurance, so if he gets it wrong, you may be able to claim
for remedial work - ask up front about this.

If you are selling - is it your residence? Do you know when the chimney
might have been removed? Try visiting your local Building Control Office
(Borough Council) and see if they have anything on file for your address.

If it was done under building control and there is a signed off certificate,
that should solve your problem...

HTH

Tim

Sure someone with more experience of this will be along soon - so wait
around for a bit and see if anyone else replies.

[Ian White]

That last point is a good one - let's hope you're lucky!

But if it was done in days of old, without benefit of building control,
it could equally well have been bodged.

I was caught in a similar way when selling the old house last year.
Downstairs and upstairs chimney breasts had both been removed about 40
years ago, leaving just the brick flue supported in the loft. But even
though it had held up for 40 years, and had got through at least two
house-buyer's surveys (including our own, 25 years ago) the method of
support was not acceptable by modern standards. In order to be able to
move, we had to pay for the structural engineer's survey and the
estimated costs of the work - this time including a building warrant.

A proper job would probably require the brickwork of the chimney breast
to be supported either by a lintel spanning between two load-bearing
downstairs walls, or by some kind of steel-framed shelf attached to the
brick wall behind.

You may be able to make some educated guesses about this chimney breast
by looking for evidence of a boxed-in lintel, or by tapping down the
chimney breast to see if it's hollow near the bottom (evidence that
there could be a shelf inside).

But most likely it will be necessary to lift some floorboards and/or
make some holes, just to see what is really there. Do remember that
whatever you find may be in a delicate condition, and bricks could fall
if disturbed. If you don't have the DIY skills to deal with whatever you
might find, you'd best get a builder in from the very beginning.

--
Ian White

[meow...@care2.com]

teracir wrote:

Inspection will require knocking holes in ceiling.

Be aware of the difference between current BR approved practices and
older but still safe methods. Professionals have a habit of complaining
about anything not to current standards, despite the fact that most of
Britains housing stock is NTCS. If its supported safely but NTCS you
can reasonably refuse to knock anything off the sale price. Buyers are
often led up the garden path by the people they hire to advise them,
and can often think everything must be to CS. Of course on a non-new
house it wont be, nor need it be.

NT

[dg]

Why are you getting it done if you are the seller? Surely it is up to
the buyer to get the property surveyed, and to satisfy themselves as to
the condition of the property?

If the buyer had forked out for a proper survey then the chimney would
have been checked. Does the buyer want you to test the drains and
electrics and every other potential probelm too?

As a seller, I would say that as far as I know, the chimney is OK, and
if the buyer wants to arrange a survey then that would be fine. Then I
would await the report and either get the recommended work done prior
to the sale, or agree a discount.

A good building surveyor should be able to comment on a chimney and its
supports, and recommend remmedial action. Ask the question before you
instruct him.

dg

[Lobster]

dg wrote:
> Why are you getting it done if you are the seller? Surely it is up to
> the buyer to get the property surveyed, and to satisfy themselves as to
> the condition of the property?

Some weeks ago I'd have said just the same thing.

However. I am currently selling a property, and the buyer's valuer
pointed out that one of the ouside walls had a bulge in it, and needed
to be checked out by a structural engineer. I was asked to get this
done. My first reaction was 'sod off'; but in the end I decided to go
along with it. I employed an engineer of my choosing - someone who I've
used before and who's judgement I trust; he's not someone who insists on
covering his back at every end an turn.

I chatted to him when he arrived and explained the situation; I asked
him *just* to look at the wall in question and nothing else, which he
did. I also asked him that if he was able to, not to make any mention
in his report of any 'nice-to-have' -type remedial work (eg demolishing
and rebuilding the wall for cosmetic purposes only); what I wanted to
know was whether the property was safe and in any danger of collapse
etc. I knew full well that anything like that would instantly be used
as a bargaining tool for reducing the asking price.

The engineer ascertained that the bulge was very old, was perfectly safe
and in no need of any remedial work. Full stop. The report satisfied
the buyer and the mortgage company, and no price reduction was sought.
I can well imagine the different scenario had I commissioned the report
as a potential buyer, rather than seller. For a start, the engineer
understandably wanted the fee for a full structural survey (£200), and
for that, as a buyer I would have got him to go over the whole of the
house, and who knows what he might have found.

The experience taught me something, anyway!

(By the way, as I mentioned in another thread recently, the OP's estate
agent may be a good source of recomendation for what they might describe
as a "sensible" structural engineer.)

David

[teracir]

Hi

HTH

Tim

thanks for the reply tim,

i have been in contact with afew engineers and surveyors and there prices
are about the same. the homebuyer survey (survey doen by the mortgage
lender on behalf of the bank) mentioned simply the fact that there is no
chimney breast and so should be checked. i have been in contact with
building control and they do not have any record of any work being
carried out on the chimney so that option is ruled out. lets hope that
when the surveyor comes, he finds that the chimney is supported at least
structurally.

--
teracir

[teracir]

ian

thanks for your advice, some helpful tips there. i am not thinking of
doing any work myself but will call in a builder if need be to remove
any bricks. i however will remove the floorboards in the hope that i
can find some sort of suppot. hopefully the engineer can give me some
good news

--
teracir

[teracir]

thanks for the advice,

i will be geting a structural engineer in to assess the chimney and
recommend if it is well supported or not.

--
teracir

[Hugo Nebula]

On 15 May 2006 14:20:00 -0700, a particular chimpanzee named "dg"
<drgr...@hotmail.com> randomly hit the keyboard and produced:

>Why are you getting it done if you are the seller? Surely it is up to
>the buyer to get the property surveyed, and to satisfy themselves as to
>the condition of the property?

And one of the ways that they do that is to get the seller to prove
that any work to which the Building Regulations applies was notified
to, inspected, and completed by the Council.
--
Hugo Nebula
"If no-one on the internet wants a piece of this,
just how far from the pack have you strayed?"

[dg]

Fair comment.

But my view is that unauthorised controlled work may only be an issue
at sale time if less than a few years old and is significant. If the
work is structurally sound then whether it has been approved or not is
irrelevent.

The LA is very unlikely to take any enforcement action unless the work
is woefully inadequate - in which case it would be all too obvious in
the first place.

Admittedly, its an excellent way to for the buyer to get a few £000
knocked off the price by stating how 'risky' it is to buy the property
with unauthorised works.

dg

[manat...@hotmail.com]

dg wrote:
> Fair comment.
>
> But my view is that unauthorised controlled work may only be an issue
> at sale time if less than a few years old and is significant. If the
> work is structurally sound then whether it has been approved or not is
> irrelevent.
>
> The LA is very unlikely to take any enforcement action unless the work
> is woefully inadequate - in which case it would be all too obvious in
> the first place.

Would it be obvious without a structural survey?

It may look perfectly OK but how do you know it isn't held together
with sealing wax and string and is going to collapse 6 months down the
line when the new occupant hammers a nail into the wall for a picture?

I wouldn't want that on my conscience.

MBQ

[dg]

Evidence of recent redecoration or making good, different sound of
areas when tapped, different bounce feel to floors and other visual
giveaways.

Certain things sound the alarm bells during a survey, and then opening
up or further investigation is done or recommended at a later date

dg