That time of the year again: Tube heaters for loft

[MM]

So far autumn temperatures are holding up well, but we might have a
shockingly cold December like last year, so once again it will be a
worry that the pipes in the loft will freeze.

So how about a tube heater? Are they safe to leave unattended? I read
on Amazon that they have to be mounted on a wall, but there's no wall
within feet of the pipes in question, so what would I mount one on?
What wattage would I need for a smallish loft (2004-built 3-bed
detached), 60W enough?

How about instead moving one of my oil-filled rads up there
temporarily? I've got a baby one that even has a thermostat on (the
tube heaters appear to need an extra thermostat).

MM

[Hugh - Was Invisible]

I have only ever had one pipe freeze. That was an elbow right in the
eaves where the old sacking type insulation had evidently migrated away
from the elbow over the years. It was in an exposed bungalow in Norfolk
in an exceptionally cold winter some time between 78 and 83.

Our current house has 4 inches of loft insulation that have
deteriorated/compacted over the years. I haven't increased the level of
insulation with a view to avoiding freezing pipes while we are away. All
pipes are reasonably insulated.

It is possible to get low wattage heating wire to put inside the
insulation but I think this is more likely to be used in schools etc
which are shut down over Xmas hols.

After this year we will probably be spending most of the winter in
warmer climes. I intend to leave the heating on low and possibly the
loft hatch slightly open in the winter. Not sure about the pipes under
our wooden floored house?

[RJS]

Try this stuff:

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Index/Cable_Index/Heat_Tape/index.html?source=adwords&kw=heat+tapes&gclid=CMy4-bHdtqwCFQIf4QodTWcHlg

And proper pipe insulation.

Richard

[Andrew Gabriel]

In article <8tj2c792bv9hdo9dp...@4ax.com>,

I doubt a tube heater will do anything in a loft.

Make sure the pipework is insulated with the thicker-walled
pipe insulation.

Make sure there isn't any insulation under the tank(s) and pipework
(hopefully, the pipework is localised around the tank(s)).

If necessary, fit a froststat in the loft which brings on the
normal central heating. (At least, that's what I've done.)

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

[ARWadsworth]

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
> In article <8tj2c792bv9hdo9dp...@4ax.com>,
> MM <kyli...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
>> So far autumn temperatures are holding up well, but we might have a
>> shockingly cold December like last year, so once again it will be a
>> worry that the pipes in the loft will freeze.
>>
>> So how about a tube heater? Are they safe to leave unattended? I read
>> on Amazon that they have to be mounted on a wall, but there's no wall
>> within feet of the pipes in question, so what would I mount one on?
>> What wattage would I need for a smallish loft (2004-built 3-bed
>> detached), 60W enough?
>>
>> How about instead moving one of my oil-filled rads up there
>> temporarily? I've got a baby one that even has a thermostat on (the
>> tube heaters appear to need an extra thermostat).
>
> I doubt a tube heater will do anything in a loft.

It would do the same as a 60W light bulb ie sod all.

> Make sure the pipework is insulated with the thicker-walled
> pipe insulation.
>
> Make sure there isn't any insulation under the tank(s) and pipework
> (hopefully, the pipework is localised around the tank(s)).
>
> If necessary, fit a froststat in the loft which brings on the
> normal central heating. (At least, that's what I've done.)

A friend of mine had a bad freeze/burst last winter and it was the incoming
supply. The heating was on but as no one was at home the cold water never
got used. You can insulate up to the tits but the water needs to be
moved/refreshed to make the insulation work.

--
Adam

[Tim Watts]

MM wrote:

> So far autumn temperatures are holding up well, but we might have a
> shockingly cold December like last year, so once again it will be a
> worry that the pipes in the loft will freeze.

Heating trace tape - around the pipe and under the insulation. Safe (if you
don;t buy a crap tape - decent ones should be self regulating), inexpensiuve
to run and fairly easy to install.

The wattage is low enough (10W/m ish) unless you have a silly amount of
pipe.

Pop a cheap thermostat at the feed end to avoid running unnescessarily...

Here:

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/CCSR100.html


Tim Watts

[Grimly Curmudgeon]

On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 10:15:54 -0800 (PST), RJS <alt...@excite.com>
wrote:

>Try this stuff:
>
>http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Index/Cable_Index/Heat_Tape/index.html?source=adwords&kw=heat+tapes&gclid=CMy4-bHdtqwCFQIf4QodTWcHlg
>
>And proper pipe insulation.

They certainly know how to charge for that.
My local hardware/farmers' supply store has 18m kits for forty euros
(inc vat).

[MM]

That sounds like it could be expensive. As I've mentioned before in
this ng my house does not have any thermostat, even though it was
built only 8 years ago. It just has Honeywell knob adjusters on all
the rads. On the wall in the annexe next to the kitchen is the Danfoss
timeswitch/controller at which I program heating and hot water
independently of each other. So wiring in a froststat would have to be
done by a heating engineer, I should think.

MM

[MM]

So what you're suggesting is, it's not possible to avoid pipes
freezing if the house is unoccupied?

MM

[Brian Gaff]

I do a good deal in old chunks of asbestos.. grin...

Brian

--
Brian Gaff - bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
Note:- In order to reduce spam, any email without 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name may be lost.
Blind user, so no pictures please!
"MM" <kyli...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:8tj2c792bv9hdo9dp...@4ax.com...

[charles]

In article <me44c71h789mc5kna...@4ax.com>, MM

my father died in October 1995 ands sicne the house probably wouldn't be
sold until the spring, I fitted a frost stat to the CH to stop things
freezing up. Unfortuately, the outside temp fell to about -20C on a few
overnights and the whole contents of the water tank in the loft froze
solid. Luckily a neigbour cam in and turned of the water before any damage
occured.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.16

[Hugh - Was Invisible]

Insulation slows down the rate at which pipes cool down and freeze.
Long term the only way to counteract this is to introduce some heat by:

Heat from the house in general. Ie heating left on or via froststat

Keeping pipes slightly heated by tape running inside the pipe insulation

Introducing heat by letting fresh water in from the mains and making
sure it reaches all the pipes at risk..

Keeping all the pipes and the tank above freezing when a house is
unoccupied for long periods is a problem unless you are prepared to
throw money at it.

[Andrew Gabriel]

In article <52326f08...@charleshope.demon.co.uk>,

charles <cha...@charleshope.demon.co.uk> writes:
> my father died in October 1995 ands sicne the house probably wouldn't be
> sold until the spring, I fitted a frost stat to the CH to stop things
> freezing up. Unfortuately, the outside temp fell to about -20C on a few
> overnights and the whole contents of the water tank in the loft froze
> solid. Luckily a neigbour cam in and turned of the water before any damage
> occured.

One grandmother died in 1995, and it took a couple of years to sell
the house. I left the heating on low and the loft hatch part open so
some of the heat went up there. Water was turned off, so if something
did go wrong, damage was limited to a tank full of water. Topped up the
CH header tank from the cold water storage tank a few times, bailing
the water with an old saucepan. If I'd know it was going to take this
long, might have drained the whole water system instead. The next
owners ripped it all out anyway, except the radiator pipework (the
rest was mainly iron).

If you leave the loft hatch open, you need to check it's not causing
condensation up there. If the house is unoccupied and ventilated,
it shouldn't.

When we did eventually turn the water back on, I found the plastic
guts of one of the tank ball valves had been damaged by freezing, so
it didn't fully close anymore. As the water had been off at the time,
it didn't matter.

[Paul D Smith]

"MM" <kyli...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:8tj2c792bv9hdo9dp...@4ax.com...

Don't know whether you can get them here, but in the US they have "ribbon
heater cable" specifically for this purpose. It looks not unlike those
"light cables" except yellow and flat and you wrap it around all your pipes
where it sits keeping them frost free.

Perhaps there's a market for them over here, if they're not available
already.

Paul DS.

[The Other Mike]

On Tue, 15 Nov 2011 07:15:37 +0000, MM <kyli...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>That sounds like it could be expensive. As I've mentioned before in
>this ng my house does not have any thermostat, even though it was
>built only 8 years ago. It just has Honeywell knob adjusters on all
>the rads. On the wall in the annexe next to the kitchen is the Danfoss
>timeswitch/controller at which I program heating and hot water
>independently of each other. So wiring in a froststat would have to be
>done by a heating engineer, I should think.

How the hell did that get Buiiding Regs approval? Even the regs
twenty years ago had something in about boiler interlocks when there
is no call for heat.


--

[MM]

What has "boiler interlocks" got to do with a froststat and/or
thermostat?

MM

[The Other Mike]

In basic terms you are not permitted to use the boiler thermostat to
control the room temperature (previously you were)

You might possibly have a flow switch on the boiler in lieu of of a
room thermostat in which case it is compliant.

--

[Hugh - Was Invisible]

Looks like it has TRVs. Do these make it compliant?

[Tim Watts]

They are - they've been mentioned at least twice in this thread - "heat
trace cable"

--
Tim Watts

[ARWadsworth]

YOU will call it heart attack cable when you see the price:-)

--
Adam

[Andrew Gabriel]

In article <j9tupr$bs4$1...@dont-email.me>,

Hugh - Was Invisible <invi...@invalid.invalid> writes:
> On 15/11/2011 14:55, The Other Mike wrote:
>> On Tue, 15 Nov 2011 14:15:26 +0000, MM<kyli...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 15 Nov 2011 14:01:41 +0000, The Other Mike
>>> <rootpa...@somewhereorother.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 15 Nov 2011 07:15:37 +0000, MM<kyli...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> That sounds like it could be expensive. As I've mentioned before in
>>>>> this ng my house does not have any thermostat, even though it was
>>>>> built only 8 years ago. It just has Honeywell knob adjusters on all
>>>>> the rads. On the wall in the annexe next to the kitchen is the Danfoss
>>>>> timeswitch/controller at which I program heating and hot water
>>>>> independently of each other. So wiring in a froststat would have to be
>>>>> done by a heating engineer, I should think.
>>>>
>>>> How the hell did that get Buiiding Regs approval? Even the regs
>>>> twenty years ago had something in about boiler interlocks when there
>>>> is no call for heat.
>>>
>>> What has "boiler interlocks" got to do with a froststat and/or
>>> thermostat?
>>
>> In basic terms you are not permitted to use the boiler thermostat to
>> control the room temperature (previously you were)

I don't think that's quite what you meant to say.

>> You might possibly have a flow switch on the boiler in lieu of of a
>> room thermostat in which case it is compliant.
>>
> Looks like it has TRVs. Do these make it compliant?

No, there has to be an interlock which stops the boiler
firing and keeping the primary circuit hot when no rooms
require heat.

I don't think this requirement is 20 years old though.
My vague recollection is it may date back to the April 2002
Part L changes.

[MM]

What does an interlock look like?

All I have is the rads with the Honeywell TRVs and the Drayton program
controller. The boiler (Wallstar 55 in the garage) has a knob on it to
set the desired temperature, and two warning lights. There is nothing
else.

House was built in 2004, along with 39 other similar properties.

MM

[gremlin_95]

Interlock means that when the room temperature has been achieved, the
boiler is switched off until there is another call for heat. This can be
achieved with a room thermostat wired correctly according to
manufacturers instructions.

--
David

[Andrew Gabriel]

In article <qam5c71tug38pg175...@4ax.com>,

MM <kyli...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
> On Tue, 15 Nov 2011 17:57:28 +0000 (UTC), and...@cucumber.demon.co.uk
> (Andrew Gabriel) wrote:
>
>>In article <j9tupr$bs4$1...@dont-email.me>,
>> Hugh - Was Invisible <invi...@invalid.invalid> writes:
>>> On 15/11/2011 14:55, The Other Mike wrote:
>>>> You might possibly have a flow switch on the boiler in lieu of of a
>>>> room thermostat in which case it is compliant.
>>>>
>>> Looks like it has TRVs. Do these make it compliant?
>>
>>No, there has to be an interlock which stops the boiler
>>firing and keeping the primary circuit hot when no rooms
>>require heat.
>
> What does an interlock look like?

Most commonly, a room thermostat.
But you can use any scheme that cuts the call for heat signal to
the boiler when no heat is required. As someone mentioned, a flow
switch in the radiator circuit would work, although you'd need to
keep the pump on, or you wouldn't notice when a TRV opened. A
flow switch working the opposite way around in the bypass loop
would also work if the loop has a pressure differential bypass
valve fitted.

I believe there are some intelligent pumps which might have some
way to do this, but I've never looked at them.

> All I have is the rads with the Honeywell TRVs and the Drayton program
> controller. The boiler (Wallstar 55 in the garage) has a knob on it to
> set the desired temperature, and two warning lights. There is nothing
> else.
>
> House was built in 2004, along with 39 other similar properties.

There are probably loads of installations which don't comply.
Heating installers are not all very good at keeping up with
technology and regs, and there will be no BCO inspection as it
will all be self-certified.

[The Other Mike]

Not on their own. Have a look at Part L of the building regs

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/buildingregulations/approveddocuments/partl/approved

Even the oldest regs on there, Page 12 & 13 mention boiler interlocks

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/PpWeb/jsp/redirect.jsp?url=http%3A//www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_ADL_1995.pdf


--

[Grimly Curmudgeon]

On Tue, 15 Nov 2011 14:01:41 +0000, The Other Mike

No thermostat used to be quite common, relying on the boilerstat to
turn the system off. Bleedin' inefficient, of course, but cheaper for
the builder/installer and when oil was cheap nobody seemed to mind it
too much (or didn't realise they'd been bilked).

[andrew]

ARWadsworth wrote:

> Tim Watts wrote:

>> They are - they've been mentioned at least twice in this thread -
>> "heat trace cable"
>
> YOU will call it heart attack cable when you see the price:-)
>

Yes, even buying a reel I cannot get the price below GBP7/metre.

I've bought some for under a portacabin, cw frostsat, but we've got a 40m
length of 28mm blue pipe in trunking between buildings that I'm worried
about. BN Thermic are in Crawley and I've been wondering about asking them
if I could use the stuff inside the pipe with a termination coming out of a
Plasson Tee.

AJH

[Grimly Curmudgeon]

On Tue, 15 Nov 2011 23:48:08 +0000, andrew <ne...@sylva.icuklive.co.uk>
wrote:

>> YOU will call it heart attack cable when you see the price:-)
>>
>
>Yes, even buying a reel I cannot get the price below GBP7/metre.
>
>I've bought some for under a portacabin, cw frostsat, but we've got a 40m
>length of 28mm blue pipe in trunking between buildings that I'm worried
>about. BN Thermic are in Crawley and I've been wondering about asking them
>if I could use the stuff inside the pipe with a termination coming out of a
>Plasson Tee.

In principle, there's nothing to stop you using some heatproof flex
and regulating a LV current down it sufficient to raise conductor
temperature, but well within the insulation specs.
Somebody here posted such a thing last winter, but I unrecall the
details.

[MM]

On Tue, 15 Nov 2011 22:12:04 +0000 (UTC), and...@cucumber.demon.co.uk
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote:

>There are probably loads of installations which don't comply.
>Heating installers are not all very good at keeping up with
>technology and regs, and there will be no BCO inspection as it
>will all be self-certified.

Might be a problem when I come to sell my house?

MM

[Tim Watts]

Unlikely...

--
Tim Watts

[Andrew Gabriel]

In article <8s27c7dg05mtaal0f...@4ax.com>,

No. The only thing people care about at that
point are non-conforming structural alterations.

It's probably easy to have it corrected. You need
to find an electrician who is familiar with heating
controls.

[Andrew Gabriel]

In article <9o16c71b79a2rk4tl...@4ax.com>,

I made one for the condensate pipework from a dehumidifier many
years ago. It used sleeved constantin resistance wire actually
threaded inside the pipe. That would also work well for a
condensing boiler.

Around 30 years ago, I bought a reel of electric blanket heater
wire from Proops. That would also be ideal, if you can find
anything similar nowadays.

[Grimly Curmudgeon]

On Thu, 17 Nov 2011 00:11:16 +0000 (UTC), and...@cucumber.demon.co.uk
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote:

>Around 30 years ago, I bought a reel of electric blanket heater
>wire from Proops. That would also be ideal, if you can find
>anything similar nowadays.

Interesting.
http://www.totoku.com/products/electric_wires/wires/heater/16_01.shtml
Probably minimum order by the container load.

[andrew]

Andrew Gabriel wrote:

> In article <9o16c71b79a2rk4tl...@4ax.com>,
> Grimly Curmudgeon <grimly...@REMOVEgmail.com> writes:
>> On Tue, 15 Nov 2011 23:48:08 +0000, andrew <ne...@sylva.icuklive.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>
>>> BN Thermic are in Crawley and I've been wondering about asking
>>>them if I could use the stuff inside the pipe with a termination coming
>>>out of a Plasson Tee.
>>
>> In principle, there's nothing to stop you using some heatproof flex
>> and regulating a LV current down it sufficient to raise conductor
>> temperature, but well within the insulation specs.
>> Somebody here posted such a thing last winter, but I unrecall the
>> details.
>
> I made one for the condensate pipework from a dehumidifier many
> years ago. It used sleeved constantin resistance wire actually
> threaded inside the pipe. That would also work well for a
> condensing boiler.

The thing about this stuff is that is two conductors with a resistance
material between them, so the power consumption per unit length is
independent of the length. Its temperature coefficient is such that its
resistance increases faster as the temperature rises.

AJH

[Andrew Gabriel]

In article <9ivvsr...@mid.individual.net>,

I just used a froststat, positioned outdoors near the pipework.

[MM]

On Nov 14, 5:34 pm, MM <kylix...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> So far autumn temperatures are holding up well, but we might have a
> shockingly cold December like last year, so once again it will be a
> worry that the pipes in the loft will freeze.
>

> So how about atubeheater? Are they safe to leave unattended? I read

> on Amazon that they have to be mounted on a wall, but there's no wall
> within feet of the pipes in question, so what would I mount one on?
> What wattage would I need for a smallish loft (2004-built 3-bed
> detached), 60W enough?
>
> How about instead moving one of my oil-filled rads up there

> temporarily? I've got a baby one that even has a thermostat on (thetubeheaters appear to need an extra thermostat).
>
> MM

I've finally purchased a tube heater. 120W 2ft long white, from Argos.
This is for the loft. The instruction sheet confirms that it is
suitable for the loft (IPX4 rating). In addition to the instruction
sheet, is there anything I need to be aware of when mounting it
tomorrow (can't do it now as I'm knackered after traipsing around
Boston for three hours).

MM

[js.b1]

On Dec 10, 5:32 pm, MM <kylix...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> I've finally purchased a tube heater. 120W 2ft long white, from Argos.
> This is for the loft.

You can heat a 2.5x2x2.4m box room with 1.2x1m single glazing to "just
above cold" with a 120W tube heater... but it has 50mm Celotex on the
walls... 270mm loft insulation... and EPDM draught excluder fitted...
and the room below is heated.

A loft usually has a gale blowing through the tiles (& sarking felt)
and is separated from the heated house by a good thickness of
insulation. So utterly impossible to heat.

What you could do is build an enclosure above any water tank & piping,
insulation on top of that, and remove any insulation beneath so heat
from the house warms it. Then fit a 120W tube heater somewhere in that
with a frost thermostat which is set to turn on at (say) 5oC. Heating
a loft as a body of air is a non-starter unless the underside of the
room has 100mm Celotex on it (correctly ventilated above).

Tube heater IP rating is x4 so splashproof, should be fine in a loft
unless it is stood in water (which you do not want anyway!).

[Brian Gaff]

But if its anything like my loft its a basic wind tunnel, so it would never
be able to cope. You really need to put insulation over the pipe but keep it
open to the room below.
Brian

--
Brian Gaff - bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
Note:- In order to reduce spam, any email without 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name may be lost.
Blind user, so no pictures please!

"MM" <kyli...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message

news:e328a387-3656-4dee...@t16g2000vba.googlegroups.com...

[MM]

On Sat, 10 Dec 2011 19:15:35 -0000, "Brian Gaff"
<bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>But if its anything like my loft its a basic wind tunnel, so it would never
>be able to cope. You really need to put insulation over the pipe but keep it
>open to the room below.
> Brian

The pipes are insulated, but I've removed ~some~ of the loft
insulation (the orange woolly stuff) around the tank so that more heat
can permeate upwards. I leave the loft hatch open for the duration and
open the bedroom doors so that heat from the rads will also trickle
up. Last December was a LOT colder, but the temperature in the loft
just held at about 4 deg C at its minimum. The tube heater is just an
additional source of heat, though admittedly not a lot! I tested it
this afternoon in a very cold bedroom and it raised the temp by 1 deg
in one hour with the door closed.

MM

[Hugh - Was Invisible]

With a properly vented loft I fear you are wasting your time and money.
The only thing I would rely on would be heating tape under thick
insulation if I really thought pipes were going to freeze.