Freezer on economy 7 overnight rate - possible/sensible?

[Chris Green]

We have a couple of freezers, one small under-counter one and a larger
tall one. I'm wondering if it would be possible/sensible/practical to
run them on a timer which limits them to running overnight when we
have (relatively) cheap electricity.

Maybe what would be more sensible would be to run just one of them
this way and make sure we keep the more often accessed frozen food in
the other one.

Has anyone tried this?

--
Chris Green
·

[Theo]

No, but I think it'll really depend on how good the insulation is, and what
you have stored in there (and also the ambient temperature). Say ice
lollies might be fine about swinging from -20C to -5C, but maybe not a good
idea for meat.

Perhaps you could put a min/max thermometer in there and try it as an
experiment, seeing how far 'max' goes?

I think you'd need to power the freezer the moment you opened the door,
because even if the day/night swing was acceptable the warm air coming in
would disrupt it. Especially if you put new things in the freezer (which
might be frozen, but not at -20C once you've got them home from the shops).

Theo

[Tim+]

I’ve thought about it, but I only have 4 hours cheap rate and I couldn’t
convince myself that the freezer would stay cold enough and would suffer
major temperature swings.

If you were to half fill the freezer with some sort of freezer blocks to
“buffer” the temperature swings it might help a bit but if you want to
experiment you really ought to get some sort of temperature logging device
just so that you’ll *know* what’s happening rather than just hoping for the
best.

My suspicion is though that even with 8 hours of cooling time, the
temperature swings will be to great for safe storage of food. I could be
wrong though…

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

[NY]

"Tim+" <tim.d...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:2040389730.683371450.294...@news.individual.net...

> I’ve thought about it, but I only have 4 hours cheap rate and I couldn’t
> convince myself that the freezer would stay cold enough and would suffer
> major temperature swings.

How has your Economy 7 timer got altered so it only gives you 4 hours of
cheaper tariff? I've heard of the clock getting altered (eg as a result of a
lot of long power cuts) so it gives you the cheap 7 hours during the day
instead of at night, but not of the 7-hour period getting reduced.

[Chris Green]

Tim+ <tim.d...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Chris Green <c...@isbd.net> wrote:
> > We have a couple of freezers, one small under-counter one and a larger
> > tall one. I'm wondering if it would be possible/sensible/practical to
> > run them on a timer which limits them to running overnight when we
> > have (relatively) cheap electricity.
> >
> > Maybe what would be more sensible would be to run just one of them
> > this way and make sure we keep the more often accessed frozen food in
> > the other one.
> >
> > Has anyone tried this?
> >
>
> I’ve thought about it, but I only have 4 hours cheap rate and I couldn’t
> convince myself that the freezer would stay cold enough and would suffer
> major temperature swings.
>
> If you were to half fill the freezer with some sort of freezer blocks to
> “buffer” the temperature swings it might help a bit but if you want to
> experiment you really ought to get some sort of temperature logging device
> just so that you’ll *know* what’s happening rather than just hoping for the
> best.
>

Yes, I think it would definitely be a good idea to monitor the
temperature to see how it fluctuates.

> My suspicion is though that even with 8 hours of cooling time, the
> temperature swings will be to great for safe storage of food. I could be
> wrong though…
>

It sounds like it might be worth an experiment though. :-)

--
Chris Green
·

[alan_m]

On 28/08/2022 11:21, Chris Green wrote:

>>
> Yes, I think it would definitely be a good idea to monitor the
> temperature to see how it fluctuates.

Something I posted a couple of months ago

After a recommendation on this group a few years back I purchased a
fridge/freezer thermometer that has remote transmitters fitted in my
fridge and in my freezer and monitors the temperatures - showing a
minimum and maximum value since last reset.

Random Ebay listing so not a recommendation about the seller
https://tinyurl.com/ydp8zrka

One point to note that the transmitter fitted in the freezer is working
at approx -20C so needs decent batteries rated to that temperature.
Each remote transmitter takes 2 AA batteries and I've fitted Energizer
Ultimate Lithium AA Batteries LR6/L91/FR6 which are specified to -40C
operational. Although some alkaline batteries are specified to -20C
operational I found that in the freezer they were unreliable whereas
I've had zero problems with the lithium batteries.

This morning the temperature in my freezer is reported at -19C but over
the past 3 months max = -15C, min = -23C. Even where loading up the
freezer the door hasn't been open for more than 5 minutes at a time and
each shelf has a door or is a box container.

>
>
>> My suspicion is though that even with 8 hours of cooling time, the
>> temperature swings will be to great for safe storage of food. I could be
>> wrong though…
>>
> It sounds like it might be worth an experiment though. :-)
>

It may depend on keeping the freezer full and NOT opening the door while
the power is off - but possibly not how you want to access the freezer :)

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

[RJH]

On 28 Aug 2022 at 11:52:46 BST, alan_m wrote:

> It may depend on keeping the freezer full and NOT opening the door while
> the power is off - but possibly not how you want to access the freezer :)

I wouldn't have thought opening the door for short periods would make a
significant difference, especially if the freezer has drawers (traps the cold
air) and is full ('solids' will be relatively - to air - unaffected).

--
Cheers, Rob, Sheffield UK

[jon]

My off-peak electricity runs from 10:30pm to 12:30am and 2:30am to 7:30am.

[Chris Green]

alan_m <ju...@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >
> >> My suspicion is though that even with 8 hours of cooling time, the
> >> temperature swings will be to great for safe storage of food. I could be
> >> wrong though…
> >>
> > It sounds like it might be worth an experiment though. :-)
> >
>
> It may depend on keeping the freezer full and NOT opening the door while
> the power is off - but possibly not how you want to access the freezer :)
>

The bigger of the two freezers is always pretty full up and is the
less frequently used one so it might be worth a try-out at least.

Thanks for the information about batteries, the fridge/freezer
thermometer I have lives outside the freezer with just the temperature
sensor inside.

--
Chris Green
·

[Tim+]

I don’t have an economy 7 timer. I have a smart meter that gives me access
to a much cheaper tariff that E7. The tariff is designed for EV charging
(and anything else that I can do in the time period).

[charles]

on our freezer you get condensation on the drawer fronts.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

[Jeff Layman]

Does that mean you have a higher tariff charge for electricity use
outside of the cheap period?

--

Jeff

[Harry Bloomfield Esq]

On 28/08/2022 09:19, Chris Green wrote:
> Maybe what would be more sensible would be to run just one of them
> this way and make sure we keep the more often accessed frozen food in
> the other one.

Rather than just on during E7, it might be sensible to have them switch
off several hours before the start of the E7, then back on when E7 is
available - using either a time clock, or Smart Plug and Alexa. The
timing would have to be overridden if the freezer was opened during the
off time. You would also have to hope there wasn't a power cut, at the
start of the E7 period.

They say a fridge or freezer can safely be without power, if left closed
throughout, for eight hours.

[Tim+]

Naturally. Swings and roundabouts etc. It only makes sense if you have
some substantial power consumption that you can time shift into the off
peak period.

My current rates are:

Day unit rate:
40.13 p/kWh

Night unit rate:
7.5 p/kWh

Standing charge:
49.38 p/day

(These rates may no longer be available to new customers. I changed rates
two weeks ago).

[Brian Gaff]

This really depends on the insulation. Ironically if it is very well
insulated the compressor will run for less time in any case. How long is
the economy 7 window and is it likely to alter when all the electric
vehicles start to charge on it?


Brian

--

--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Chris Green" <c...@isbd.net> wrote in message
news:02lrti-...@esprimo.zbmc.eu...

[Mark Carver]

On 29/08/2022 12:52, Brian Gaff wrote:
> How long is the economy 7 window

The clue is kind of in the name !

[Andrew]

On 28/08/2022 19:08, Jethro_uk wrote:

> Personally I would be wary of investing too much into something which is
> within the gift of the government to take away at the stroke of a pen.
> Like all the people who got stung with FITs when the rules changed.
>

Err, no-one got stung. The FIT rate was progressively reduced and
no-one gets it now (which is GOOD), but those who had previously signed
up will continue to get their huge RPI-linked bung for the whole of
the contract period.

[Tim+]

Given that Brian has electric heating, I would have thought he’d know!

[Andy Burns]

I did wonder why Jethro though any individual FIT recipient had been "stuffed",
anyway there is now SEG instead of FIT, but mostly it pays quite low

<https://www.solarpanelprices.co.uk/articles/solar-panels/best-smart-export-guarantee-tariffs/>

[NY]

"Andy Burns" <use...@andyburns.uk> wrote in message
news:jn6cdu...@mid.individual.net...

Why is it a good thing that no-one gets a feed-in-tariff? Surely it is
sensible that whenever the electricity generated exceeds the amount that is
currently being used in the house, it can be sold back to the
generating/supply company rather than going to waste. Or is your comment
related specifically to the FIT, as opposed to any replacement tariff that
may be offered? Is there a fundamental and logical reason why power cannot
be sold back to the grid at the same rate that it is charged - or is it
purely down to electricity companies being greedy?

Do solar panels act as a UPS in the event of a power cut, or are they
connected in such a way that if the power supply from the grid fails, the
solar panels also cut their supply to the house? I ask because we get a lot
of brief one-second power interruptions at this time of year because the
electricity company are not doing their job of clearing overhanging branches
off HV (33 kV) power lines; if we were to get solar panels, as a fringe
benefit, would the issue of power cuts become less serious - as long as the
power cuts occur during daylight hours...

[alan_m]

On 30/08/2022 14:04, NY wrote:

> that may be offered? Is there a fundamental and logical reason why power
> cannot be sold back to the grid at the same rate that it is charged - or
> is it purely down to electricity companies being greedy?

The electricity you receive includes the cost of distribution/meters,
taxes such as VAT, the green tax and the warm house discounts, admin
costs associated with processing of bills, bad debts etc.

There probably would be a good arguement for paying a better going rate
for excess solar energy being fed back into the grid if it was generated
when needed most - on a cold winter evening.

[Robin]

On 30/08/2022 14:04, NY wrote:

Andy has already answered that point and given you a link. But since you
seem still unclear:

"Feed-in tariff" was not a generic term, it was the name of a specific
scheme that closed in 2019

a new scheme, "Smart Export Guarantee", from 2020 provided for tariffs
for power solar (and other) users export




--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 30/08/2022 14:04, NY wrote:

> "Andy Burns" <use...@andyburns.uk> wrote in message
> news:jn6cdu...@mid.individual.net...
>> Andrew wrote:
>>
>>> Jethro_uk wrote:
>>>
>>>> Personally I would be wary of investing too much into something
>>>> which is
>>>> within the gift of the government to take away at the stroke of a pen.
>>>> Like all the people who got stung with FITs when the rules changed.
>>>
>>> Err, no-one got stung. The FIT rate was progressively reduced and
>>> no-one gets it now (which is GOOD), but those who had previously
>>> signed up will continue to get their huge RPI-linked bung for the
>>> whole of
>>> the contract period.
>>
>> I did wonder why Jethro though any individual FIT recipient had been
>> "stuffed", anyway there is now SEG instead of FIT, but mostly it pays
>> quite low
>>
>> <https://www.solarpanelprices.co.uk/articles/solar-panels/best-smart-export-guarantee-tariffs/>
>>
>
>
> Why is it a good thing that no-one gets a feed-in-tariff? Surely it is
> sensible that whenever the electricity generated exceeds the amount that
> is currently being used in the house, it can be sold back to the
> generating/supply company rather than going to waste.

It costs the electricity companies more to accommodate the intermittency
than it does not to take the electricity.

Especially when they are paying ten times the market rate for it.
That is the Evil of FITS.

Lets say you are an employer. Would you rather have a permanent employee
at £10,000 a year, or one who comes in one day in ten for an equivalent
slary of £100,000, to do work that you had already hired a reliable
person to do.

Or is your comment
> related specifically to the FIT, as opposed to any replacement tariff
> that may be offered? Is there a fundamental and logical reason why power
> cannot be sold back to the grid at the same rate that it is charged - or
> is it purely down to electricity companies being greedy?
>

Its purely down to what it costs them. More renewable energy on the grid
is in fact a cost, not a benefit. Its erratic and its unstable and it
drops out the momentthere is a fault anywhere

> Do solar panels act as a UPS in the event of a power cut, or are they
> connected in such a way that if the power supply from the grid fails,
> the solar panels also cut their supply to the house?

That., mostly if they are grid connected at all.

I ask because we
> get a lot of brief one-second power interruptions at this time of year
> because the electricity company are not doing their job of clearing
> overhanging branches off HV (33 kV) power lines; if we were to get solar
> panels, as a fringe benefit, would the issue of power cuts become less
> serious - as long as the power cuts occur during daylight hours...

No. It wouldn't do anything except make the jobs of people clearing
trees more dangerous, as no matter how isolated an overhead has been
made, some wanker is now still feeding power into it from some bloody
solar panel

--
“A leader is best When people barely know he exists. Of a good leader,
who talks little,When his work is done, his aim fulfilled,They will say,
“We did this ourselves.”

― Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

[Andy Burns]

NY wrote:

> Why is it a good thing that no-one gets a feed-in-tariff?

It wasn't my comment, but ...

The original FIT levels were pretty obscene, about 10x what big generators were
being paid, IIRC?

> Surely it is sensible
> that whenever the electricity generated exceeds the amount that is currently
> being used in the house, it can be sold back to the generating/supply company
> rather than going to waste. Or is your comment related specifically to the FIT,
> as opposed to any replacement tariff that may be offered? Is there a fundamental
> and logical reason why power cannot be sold back to the grid at the same rate
> that it is charged - or is it purely down to electricity companies being greedy?

I think the "Tesla" SEG tariff does buy and sell at the same price per kWh, but
you have to have two Powerwalls fitted and not buy more than a certain amount of
power per year.

> Do solar panels act as a UPS in the event of a power cut, or are they connected
> in such a way that if the power supply from the grid fails, the solar panels
> also cut their supply to the house?

The latter (it saves frying the employees of the DNOs) though some of the
"hybrid" inverters when connected to a battery bank do have a second output
that's for local usage only, not for grid output.

Since a new-build can't really get away without having PV nowadays, and
considering the pittance that's offered for export, I'd rather shove any excess
into a battery (house or car) to reduce imports at a later time and if there's
still any extra left over, into an immersion heater.

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 30/08/2022 15:43, Andy Burns wrote:
> Since a new-build can't really get away without having PV nowadays,

No one will buy a new house or a second hand house with PV


--
“It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established
authorities are wrong.”

― Voltaire, The Age of Louis XIV

[Rod Speed]

On Tue, 30 Aug 2022 23:04:20 +1000, NY <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote:

> "Andy Burns" <use...@andyburns.uk> wrote in message
> news:jn6cdu...@mid.individual.net...
>> Andrew wrote:
>>
>>> Jethro_uk wrote:
>>>
>>>> Personally I would be wary of investing too much into something which
>>>> is
>>>> within the gift of the government to take away at the stroke of a pen.
>>>> Like all the people who got stung with FITs when the rules changed.
>>>
>>> Err, no-one got stung. The FIT rate was progressively reduced and
>>> no-one gets it now (which is GOOD), but those who had previously
>>> signed up will continue to get their huge RPI-linked bung for the
>>> whole of
>>> the contract period.
>>
>> I did wonder why Jethro though any individual FIT recipient had been
>> "stuffed", anyway there is now SEG instead of FIT, but mostly it pays
>> quite low
>>
>> <https://www.solarpanelprices.co.uk/articles/solar-panels/best-smart-export-guarantee-tariffs/>

> Why is it a good thing that no-one gets a feed-in-tariff?

Because it encourages those like Harry to bludge off everyone else.

> Surely it is sensible that whenever the electricity generated exceeds
> the amount that is currently being used in the house, it can be sold
> back to the generating/supply company rather than going to waste.

Trouble is the substantial cost of network upgrades to allow that.

> Or is your comment related specifically to the FIT, as opposed to any
> replacement tariff that may be offered? Is there a fundamental and
> logical reason why power cannot be sold back to the grid at the same
> rate that it is charged

Yes, it costs the supplier more to accept power from consumers.

> - or is it purely down to electricity companies being greedy?

No.

> Do solar panels act as a UPS in the event of a power cut,

No. They shut down when the mains supply goes down
unless they are much more expensive to buy, essentially
because without the mains, they have nothing to synch
to. While it is certainly possible for them ot operate
independantly until the mains comes back, its not
trivial to switch back to synching with the mains
when it returns and that costs more in the inverter.

> or are they connected in such a way that if the power supply from the
> grid fails, the solar panels also cut their supply to the house?

Yes, except with the more expensive inverters.

> I ask because we get a lot of brief one-second power interruptions at
> this time of year because the electricity company are not doing their
> job of clearing overhanging branches off HV (33 kV) power lines; if we
> were to get solar panels, as a fringe benefit, would the issue of power
> cuts become less serious - as long as the power cuts occur during
> daylight hours...

Not unless you get a more expensive control system for it
and even then you don't get a seamless glitch free handling
of very short term power interruptions. You need a proper
full time UPS for that and that isnt cheap for the whole house.

[Peeler]

On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 02:22:04 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>

--
JimK addressing senile Rodent Speed:
"I really feel the quality of your trolling has dropped in the last few
months..."
MID: <n8idndHg5972A2DD...@brightview.co.uk>

[AnthonyL]

On Tue, 30 Aug 2022 14:04:20 +0100, "NY" <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote:

>
>Do solar panels act as a UPS in the event of a power cut, or are they
>connected in such a way that if the power supply from the grid fails, the
>solar panels also cut their supply to the house? I ask because we get a lot
>of brief one-second power interruptions at this time of year because the
>electricity company are not doing their job of clearing overhanging branches
>off HV (33 kV) power lines; if we were to get solar panels, as a fringe
>benefit, would the issue of power cuts become less serious - as long as the
>power cuts occur during daylight hours...
>

The solar panels are not producing 240v AC at 50Hz. They need
external power to drive the conversion.

I believe at some significant extra cost a "UPS" arrangement can be
installed.


--
AnthonyL

Why ever wait to finish a job before starting the next?

[Kron]

On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 06:13:51 +1000, AnthonyL <nos...@please.invalid> wrote:

> On Tue, 30 Aug 2022 14:04:20 +0100, "NY" <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>
>>
>> Do solar panels act as a UPS in the event of a power cut, or are they
>> connected in such a way that if the power supply from the grid fails,
>> the
>> solar panels also cut their supply to the house? I ask because we get a
>> lot
>> of brief one-second power interruptions at this time of year because the
>> electricity company are not doing their job of clearing overhanging
>> branches
>> off HV (33 kV) power lines; if we were to get solar panels, as a fringe
>> benefit, would the issue of power cuts become less serious - as long as
>> the
>> power cuts occur during daylight hours...
>>
>
> The solar panels are not producing 240v AC at 50Hz. They need
> external power to drive the conversion.

No they do not. Totally off grid solar panels work fine.

[Tim+]

Even when you’re partly right, nobody’s gonna pay much heed to a
nym-shifting troll Wodney.

How pathetic is it that you have to keep doing this to dodge folk’s kill
files?

<plonk>

[Peeler]

On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 06:25:25 +1000, Kron, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>

--

Norman Wells addressing trolling senile Rodent:
"Ah, the voice of scum speaks."
MID: <g4t0jt...@mid.individual.net>

[Andrew]

On 30/08/2022 16:46, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 30/08/2022 15:43, Andy Burns wrote:
>> Since a new-build can't really get away without having PV nowadays,
> No one will buy a new house or a second hand house with PV
>
>

Why ever not ?. Provided the vendor OWNS the panels outright
and has not rented his roof to some wide-boy scammers, then
they will add to the value of the property.

[Andrew]

On 30/08/2022 21:13, AnthonyL wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Aug 2022 14:04:20 +0100, "NY" <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>
>>
>> Do solar panels act as a UPS in the event of a power cut, or are they
>> connected in such a way that if the power supply from the grid fails, the
>> solar panels also cut their supply to the house? I ask because we get a lot
>> of brief one-second power interruptions at this time of year because the
>> electricity company are not doing their job of clearing overhanging branches
>> off HV (33 kV) power lines; if we were to get solar panels, as a fringe
>> benefit, would the issue of power cuts become less serious - as long as the
>> power cuts occur during daylight hours...
>>
>
> The solar panels are not producing 240v AC at 50Hz. They need
> external power to drive the conversion.
>

No they don't. They can be configured off-grid if needed. The grid
connection is required if you intend to supply power back to your
electricity supplier, and for safety reasons, if the grid fails
the house inverter also shuts down (or diverts power to someother
device that it also disconnected from the grid).

You can use solar panels off grid and feed the 48V DC into
special immersion heaters intended for this purpose.