private sale of 3-piece suite: fire regs?

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John Nagelson

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Feb 27, 2011, 4:29:28 AM2/27/11
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If I advertise my 3-piece suite in the local rag and someone buys it
from me, do I have to ensure that it complies with the Furniture &
Furnishings (Fire)(Safety) Regulations 1988?

I know the regulations don't apply to furniture made before 1950.

What about stuff made after 1950? I think the effect of section 14 is
that I do have to ensure it complies, even if I'm not "in the trade"
and this is the only piece of furniture I ever supply to anyone. Am I
right about this? (If so, I'll have to dump it!)

Thanks!

John

Lobster

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Feb 27, 2011, 4:50:34 AM2/27/11
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On 27/02/2011 09:29, John Nagelson wrote:
> If I advertise my 3-piece suite in the local rag and someone buys it
> from me, do I have to ensure that it complies with the Furniture&
> Furnishings (Fire)(Safety) Regulations 1988?

Nah. As a private one-off seller it's not relevant. Mind you, the market
in old 3-piece suites is pretty non-existent IME - if you've got one
dating before 1988 I'd be surprised if you'd get takers unless it's a
but special.

The quite reasonable suite in our kids playroom was acquired from ebay
about 5 years ago - for 1p...

David

John Nagelson

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Feb 27, 2011, 5:07:33 AM2/27/11
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Thanks David. Do you know the chapter and verse which says
the Regs don't apply to one-off private sellers (or alternatively that
they only apply to business sellers)?? Various "advice" sites say
the Regs don't apply to one-off sellers, unfortunately without giving
the ref...

Cheers!

John

The Natural Philosopher

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Feb 27, 2011, 5:13:10 AM2/27/11
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I do know the auction house wouldn't take anything without fire
certificate. And we skipped a lot during mother's house clear out.
Simply unsaleable. Tragic.

tim....

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Feb 27, 2011, 7:03:24 AM2/27/11
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"The Natural Philosopher" <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:ikd83m$aua$3...@news.albasani.net...

Yes, but they were made unsaleable by the "Furniture& Furnishings
(Fire)(Safety) Regulations 1988" which IIRC required that the furniture
still had its fireproof "label" attached. Who the **** uses furniture with
a silly little label still hanging off it. (and I don't believe that, as
suggested, there was an exception for advertised private sales.)

Anyhow, before this act there was a thriving second-hand market in such
furniture for use in the furnished rental market. After this law it just
died completely and the number of available furnished properties for rent
diminished considerably.

tim

Tabby

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Feb 27, 2011, 8:36:27 AM2/27/11
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On Feb 27, 12:03 pm, "tim...." <tims_new_h...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> "The Natural Philosopher" <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote in messagenews:ikd83m$aua$3...@news.albasani.net...

On the other hand, the death toll from such furniture isn't too funny.


NT

tim....

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Feb 27, 2011, 9:36:44 AM2/27/11
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"Tabby" <meow...@care2.com> wrote in message
news:ffcc712c-694e-4b27...@v31g2000vbs.googlegroups.com...

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Isn't it. Does it spontaneously combust?

No it doesn't. Precisely how many people died due to this furniture who
wouldn't have died in the fire anyway?

tim


The Medway Handyman

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Feb 27, 2011, 9:54:33 AM2/27/11
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I was involved in the industry when fire retardant foam first came out.
Interestingly the majority of people killed in fires were smokers who
were several times over the rink drive limit.

--
Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

Tabby

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Feb 27, 2011, 10:21:37 AM2/27/11
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On Feb 27, 2:36 pm, "tim...." <tims_new_h...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> "Tabby" <meow2...@care2.com> wrote in message

People that doze off and drop lit fag ends can now expect the molten
plastic to self extinguish. Perviously it would flare up severely and
too often kill. How many people I dont know. There are about 69,000
house fires a year, and hundreds of deaths, today.


NT

ARWadsworth

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Feb 27, 2011, 10:25:24 AM2/27/11
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The Medway Handyman <davi...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:


> I was involved in the industry when fire retardant foam first came
> out. Interestingly the majority of people killed in fires were
> smokers who were several times over the rink drive limit.

One of the reasons why I do not smoke in the house and one of the reasons I
threw out a lodger (she was smoking in the bedroom)

--
Adam


tim....

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Feb 27, 2011, 11:20:04 AM2/27/11
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"Tabby" <meow...@care2.com> wrote in message
news:195856d1-528a-4ef0...@v31g2000vbs.googlegroups.com...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

So, those of us who don't smoke are denied the option of a cheap furnished
rental because a percentage of the population can't be trusted not to be
stupid

tim


Skipweasel

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Feb 27, 2011, 11:31:14 AM2/27/11
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In article <ikdqd8$8sj$1...@news.eternal-september.org>,
adamwa...@blueyonder.co.uk says...

> One of the reasons why I do not smoke in the house and one of the reasons I
> threw out a lodger (she was smoking in the bedroom)
>

Did you stamp her out first, or just let her smoulder in the garden?

--
Skipweasel - never knowingly understood.

ARWadsworth

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Feb 27, 2011, 12:32:41 PM2/27/11
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Skipweasel <skipweas...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> In article <ikdqd8$8sj$1...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> adamwa...@blueyonder.co.uk says...
>> One of the reasons why I do not smoke in the house and one of the
>> reasons I threw out a lodger (she was smoking in the bedroom)
>>
>
> Did you stamp her out first, or just let her smoulder in the garden?

I was tempted. The annoying thing was my only rules were

No smoking in the house. She failed that one

Make sure that the doors are locked and the windows are shut when you go out
(my insurance would be void with an unlocked door) She failed that one

and be tidy. She passed that one

I could not give a toss whatever else they did as long as they paid their
bills.

--
Adam


harry

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Feb 27, 2011, 1:40:46 PM2/27/11
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I know charities will only take furniture if it has the label. I
skipped loads for this reason.

The Medway Handyman

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Feb 27, 2011, 2:07:19 PM2/27/11
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On 27/02/2011 09:29, John Nagelson wrote:
> If I advertise my 3-piece suite in the local rag and someone buys it
> from me, do I have to ensure that it complies with the Furniture&
> Furnishings (Fire)(Safety) Regulations 1988?

To highjack your thread, we cleared out the loft over the weekend & took
loads of baby stuff to a local charity shop. One of the items was a car
seat.

I wasn't sure if they would take it, given the possible safety
implications, but they were happy to.

cynic

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Feb 27, 2011, 2:36:00 PM2/27/11
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> tim- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Amazing some entrepeneur hasn't a nice little earner going in
supplying fire retardant labels

damdu...@yahoo.co.uk

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Feb 27, 2011, 3:54:16 PM2/27/11
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On Sun, 27 Feb 2011 16:20:04 -0000, "tim...."
<tims_n...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>
>
>>
>> > Yes, but they were made unsaleable by the "Furniture& Furnishings
>> > (Fire)(Safety) Regulations 1988" which IIRC required that the furniture
>> > still had its fireproof "label" attached.
>> >

>People that doze off and drop lit fag ends can now expect the molten
>plastic to self extinguish. Perviously it would flare up severely and
>too often kill. How many people I dont know. There are about 69,000
>house fires a year, and hundreds of deaths, today.
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>So, those of us who don't smoke are denied the option of a cheap furnished
>rental because a percentage of the population can't be trusted not to be
>stupid
>
>tim

Given that a lot of that furniture went into flats converted from
bigger houses then it may be the fire spreading from the next flat
that could set fire to your cheap rental even though you are a non
smoker.

G.Harman

PeterC

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Feb 28, 2011, 3:42:56 AM2/28/11
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It is a pity; I have some Parker Knoll furniture from pre-1980 and it might
have to be scrapped when I get rid of it.
The last piece of PK that went was broken up first as there's some good wood
in the stuff.
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

The Natural Philosopher

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Feb 28, 2011, 5:31:38 AM2/28/11
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Its a lot funnier than the death toll from candles. And Xmas trees.

Neither of which are banned.

>
>
> NT

The Natural Philosopher

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Feb 28, 2011, 5:33:34 AM2/28/11
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the worse effect was that plastic foam burns quickly and produces toxic
fumes.

But once again, they merely had to ban new goods, and the old would
simply have petered out.

>
>
> NT

The Natural Philosopher

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Feb 28, 2011, 5:35:03 AM2/28/11
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tim.... wrote:
> "Tabby" <meow...@care2.com> wrote in message

> People that doze off and drop lit fag ends can now expect the molten


> plastic to self extinguish. Perviously it would flare up severely and
> too often kill. How many people I dont know. There are about 69,000
> house fires a year, and hundreds of deaths, today.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> So, those of us who don't smoke are denied the option of a cheap furnished
> rental because a percentage of the population can't be trusted not to be
> stupid
>
>

It goes with the Nanny state. Because one person in a thousand drives
with no care and attention, the other 9999 now have to watch their
speedometers instead of the road, to avoid a speeding fine.

meg_mog

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Feb 28, 2011, 5:36:32 AM2/28/11
to

> Thanks David. Do you know the chapter and verse which says
> the Regs don't apply to one-off private sellers (or alternatively that
> they only apply to business sellers)?? Various "advice" sites say
> the Regs don't apply to one-off sellers, unfortunately without giving
> the ref...

Just read the regs and schedules and I have to agree, the only
exception is second hand furnished caravans (random!).

Second hand furniture must have its little label. Post 1988 most
people know this and so don't remove the labels anymore however post
1950 and pre 1988 there is a huge chunk of time where furniture was
produced without labels and is now effectively unsaleable.

Tbh the regs are clearly incredibly stringent but by virtue of that
are basically unenforceable on a day to day basis. It doesn't simply
apply to sales but to supply too so that vetoes freecycle and handing
items on too.
I think the legislation was clearly needed and its intentions are good
but I do think its badly drafted and misguided in how stringent it is
in regard to the second hand market. There should have been better
transitional arrangements. As it is the regs are clearly ignore on a
daily basis by private individuals to the extent that a myth has grown
up that there is even a specific exception. It'd be funny to see
Trading Standards suddenly try to start enforcing it on private
sales...I imagine it would be far too much hassle for them to be worth
it!

Never the less, to comply you do need a label. BTW, do you think
there will develop a market in 30 years time for vintage rare
upholstered post 50's furniture because so much has now been
scrapped...? ;)


The Natural Philosopher

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Feb 28, 2011, 5:37:37 AM2/28/11
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You can get it re-upholstered with new materials. And a new label
attached. It is sadly almost as expensive as a new piece.

Frames account for very little of the cost of upholstered furniture.

Peter Parry

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Feb 28, 2011, 6:01:54 AM2/28/11
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On Sun, 27 Feb 2011 02:07:33 -0800 (PST), John Nagelson
<johnna...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>Thanks David. Do you know the chapter and verse which says
>the Regs don't apply to one-off private sellers (or alternatively that
>they only apply to business sellers)?? Various "advice" sites say
>the Regs don't apply to one-off sellers, unfortunately without giving
>the ref...

There isn't one, the regulations do, as you assumed, apply to private
sales of second hand furniture.

"14.—(1) This regulation applies to furniture which has previously
been supplied ... to any person who acquired it otherwise than for
the purposes of a business of dealing in furniture.

(2) Furniture to which this regulation applies shall satisfy the
requirements of regulations 5, 6 and 8(1) to (3) ..."

"15.—(1) ...no person shall supply any furniture or other article in
respect of which any of the requirements of these Regulations is not
satisfied."

"supply" is defined in the regulation as
"“supply”, where the context so admits, includes offering and
agreeing to supply and exposing and possessing for supply, and cognate
expressions shall be construed accordingly."

which includes private sales.

The only exception for second hand furniture is that the display label
specified in the regulation is not required.


Tabby

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Feb 28, 2011, 7:03:36 AM2/28/11
to


If by stupid you mean people smoking, then maybe slightly. If you mean
people dozing off, I dont think stupidity is the main cause. The
furniture is a tiny percentage of a furnished house or flat's cost.

I'm no fan of unnecessary regulation, but I'm not sure I'd call 69,000
fires a year and hundreds of deaths unnecesary to act on.


NT

Tabby

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Feb 28, 2011, 7:05:58 AM2/28/11
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On Feb 27, 5:32 pm, "ARWadsworth" <adamwadswo...@blueyonder.co.uk>
wrote:
> Skipweasel <skipweaselnos...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > In article <ikdqd8$8s...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> > adamwadswo...@blueyonder.co.uk says...

> >> One of the reasons why I do not smoke in the house and one of the
> >> reasons I threw out a lodger (she was smoking in the bedroom)
>
> > Did you stamp her out first, or just let her smoulder in the garden?
>
> I was tempted. The annoying thing was my only rules were
>
> No smoking in the house. She failed that one
>
> Make sure that the doors are locked and the windows are shut when you go out
> (my insurance would be void with an unlocked door) She failed that one
>
> and be tidy. She passed that one
>
> I could not give a toss whatever else they did as long as they paid their
> bills.

Weird isnt it how some people just dont take any notice, then wonder
why they suffer the consequences.


NT

The Other Mike

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Feb 28, 2011, 7:10:47 AM2/28/11
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On Mon, 28 Feb 2011 10:31:38 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
<t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:


>Its a lot funnier than the death toll from candles. And Xmas trees.
>
>Neither of which are banned.

Attack of the killer xmas trees?

Why are they so dangerous?


--

Tabby

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Feb 28, 2011, 7:12:25 AM2/28/11
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A seller was prosecuted for selling in pounds & ounces... what makes
you think they'll apply sense.


NT

The Natural Philosopher

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Feb 28, 2011, 7:27:26 AM2/28/11
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Because they are highly flammable and usually surrounded and or hung
with even more inflammable materials in the shape of packages and may
or may not feature actual candles, but will always be festooned with
electrical lights all of which is installed by amateurs and subject to
no professional supervision.


The Other Mike

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Feb 28, 2011, 7:37:05 AM2/28/11
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On Mon, 28 Feb 2011 10:37:37 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
<t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>You can get it re-upholstered with new materials. And a new label
>attached. It is sadly almost as expensive as a new piece.
>
>Frames account for very little of the cost of upholstered furniture.

On quality secondhand stuff it ought to.

Most modern stuff sadly uses cardboard, mdf, chipboard, plywood and
occasionally some real wood. Tthat you can no longer torch it with a
dropped cigarette is a disgrace.

--

Andy Dingley

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Feb 28, 2011, 8:26:23 AM2/28/11
to
On Feb 28, 10:31 am, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

> Its a lot funnier than  the death toll from candles. And Xmas trees.

Candles and cigarettes, yes, but where are all the christmas tree
deaths?

Rospa (for one) don't seem to have any credence to add to this claim.

Skipweasel

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Feb 28, 2011, 11:32:46 AM2/28/11
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In article <c435ded3-8840-44d1-a860-bfd616da9770@
18g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, fayken...@gmail.com says...

> Just read the regs and schedules and I have to agree, the only
> exception is second hand furnished caravans (random!).
>

Caravans seem to be exempt from just about every rule going.
Particularly insulation rules, as anyone who's tried sleeping in one
off-season can tell you.

PeterC

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Feb 28, 2011, 12:38:51 PM2/28/11
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On Mon, 28 Feb 2011 10:37:37 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

>>> I know charities will only take furniture if it has the label. I
>>> skipped loads for this reason.
>>
>> It is a pity; I have some Parker Knoll furniture from pre-1980 and it might
>> have to be scrapped when I get rid of it.
>> The last piece of PK that went was broken up first as there's some good wood
>> in the stuff.
>
> You can get it re-upholstered with new materials. And a new label
> attached. It is sadly almost as expensive as a new piece.
>
> Frames account for very little of the cost of upholstered furniture.

It's too big for the room, sadly, so spending a lot of money on it isn't an
option.

The Natural Philosopher

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Feb 28, 2011, 1:31:38 PM2/28/11
to
Skipweasel wrote:
> In article <c435ded3-8840-44d1-a860-bfd616da9770@
> 18g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, fayken...@gmail.com says...
>> Just read the regs and schedules and I have to agree, the only
>> exception is second hand furnished caravans (random!).
>>
>
> Caravans seem to be exempt from just about every rule going.
> Particularly insulation rules, as anyone who's tried sleeping in one
> off-season can tell you.
>
They are not too bad. Our camper has a gas fire..

Steve Walker

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Feb 28, 2011, 4:29:58 PM2/28/11
to
On 27/02/2011 14:36, tim.... wrote:
> "Tabby"<meow...@care2.com> wrote in message

> news:ffcc712c-694e-4b27...@v31g2000vbs.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 27, 12:03 pm, "tim...."<tims_new_h...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> "The Natural Philosopher"<t...@invalid.invalid> wrote in
>> messagenews:ikd83m$aua$3...@news.albasani.net...
>>
>>
>>
>>> John Nagelson wrote:
>>>> On Feb 27, 9:50 am, Lobster<davidlobsterpot...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 27/02/2011 09:29, John Nagelson wrote:
>>
>>>>>> If I advertise my 3-piece suite in the local rag and someone buys it
>>>>>> from me, do I have to ensure that it complies with the Furniture&
>>>>>> Furnishings (Fire)(Safety) Regulations 1988?
>>>>> Nah. As a private one-off seller it's not relevant. Mind you, the
>>>>> market
>>>>> in old 3-piece suites is pretty non-existent IME - if you've got one
>>>>> dating before 1988 I'd be surprised if you'd get takers unless it's a
>>>>> but special.
>>
>>>>> The quite reasonable suite in our kids playroom was acquired from ebay
>>>>> about 5 years ago - for 1p...
>>
>>>> Thanks David. Do you know the chapter and verse which says
>>>> the Regs don't apply to one-off private sellers (or alternatively that
>>>> they only apply to business sellers)?? Various "advice" sites say
>>>> the Regs don't apply to one-off sellers, unfortunately without giving
>>>> the ref...
>>
>>>> Cheers!
>>
>>>> John
>>
>>> I do know the auction house wouldn't take anything without fire
>>> certificate. And we skipped a lot during mother's house clear out.
>>> Simply
>>> unsaleable. Tragic.
>>
>> Yes, but they were made unsaleable by the "Furniture& Furnishings
>> (Fire)(Safety) Regulations 1988" which IIRC required that the furniture
>> still had its fireproof "label" attached. Who the **** uses furniture with
>> a silly little label still hanging off it. (and I don't believe that, as
>> suggested, there was an exception for advertised private sales.)
>>
>> Anyhow, before this act there was a thriving second-hand market in such
>> furniture for use in the furnished rental market. After this law it just
>> died completely and the number of available furnished properties for rent
>> diminished considerably.
>>
>> tim
>
> On the other hand, the death toll from such furniture isn't too funny.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Isn't it. Does it spontaneously combust?
>
> No it doesn't. Precisely how many people died due to this furniture who
> wouldn't have died in the fire anyway?
>
> tim

One of the events which caused a push for this legislation was the fire
in Woolworths in the centre of Manchester in 1979. The fire was thought
to have started due to an electrical fault, but the dense smoke due to
polyurethane foam in the furniture that then caught fire killed 10
people. 3 were found less than 6 feet from an exit and three more close
by, all overcome by the fumes.

SteveW

Skipweasel

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Feb 28, 2011, 5:32:30 PM2/28/11
to
In article <ikgpma$kbp$3...@news.albasani.net>, t...@invalid.invalid says...

> > Caravans seem to be exempt from just about every rule going.
> > Particularly insulation rules, as anyone who's tried sleeping in one
> > off-season can tell you.
> >
> They are not too bad. Our camper has a gas fire..

The static thing I slept in last Easter felt, sounded and was as warm as
a Tupperwear box. Turn the heater off and it was chilly before you
reached the other end of the thing.

tim....

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Mar 1, 2011, 3:29:31 AM3/1/11
to

"Steve Walker" <steve.m...@removethis.talktalk.net> wrote in message
news:ikh44j$9q1$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

So that's a good reason to make sure that all new furniture is made from new
materials.

It is not a reason to stop someone offload their old sofa to someone (who
can't afford a new one) for 20 quid

tim


John Williamson

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Mar 1, 2011, 3:39:53 AM3/1/11
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tim.... wrote:
> "Steve Walker" <steve.m...@removethis.talktalk.net> wrote in message
> news:ikh44j$9q1$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
>> One of the events which caused a push for this legislation was the fire in
>> Woolworths in the centre of Manchester in 1979. The fire was thought to
>> have started due to an electrical fault, but the dense smoke due to
>> polyurethane foam in the furniture that then caught fire killed 10 people.
>> 3 were found less than 6 feet from an exit and three more close by, all
>> overcome by the fumes.
>
> So that's a good reason to make sure that all new furniture is made from new
> materials.
>
> It is not a reason to stop someone offload their old sofa to someone (who
> can't afford a new one) for 20 quid
>
Depends what value you put on a life.
/Cynic mode
It also makes jobs for furniture makers.
Cynic Mode/

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

tim....

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Mar 1, 2011, 3:53:55 AM3/1/11
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"John Williamson" <johnwil...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:8t3pm...@mid.individual.net...

> tim.... wrote:
>> "Steve Walker" <steve.m...@removethis.talktalk.net> wrote in message
>> news:ikh44j$9q1$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
>>> One of the events which caused a push for this legislation was the fire
>>> in Woolworths in the centre of Manchester in 1979. The fire was thought
>>> to have started due to an electrical fault, but the dense smoke due to
>>> polyurethane foam in the furniture that then caught fire killed 10
>>> people. 3 were found less than 6 feet from an exit and three more close
>>> by, all overcome by the fumes.
>>
>> So that's a good reason to make sure that all new furniture is made from
>> new materials.
>>
>> It is not a reason to stop someone offload their old sofa to someone (who
>> can't afford a new one) for 20 quid
>>
> Depends what value you put on a life.

That's for the buyer to decide.

If this wasn't the rule in the UK why are we still allowing cigarettes to be
sold

tim


John Williamson

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Mar 1, 2011, 4:03:42 AM3/1/11
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Cynically, because the government can't manage without the income from
the tax.

The Natural Philosopher

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Mar 1, 2011, 4:50:54 AM3/1/11
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Law of unintended consequences.

Or it is, because that way the pool of inflammable sofas disappears
completely in a few years.

"In my life as an MP, I have come to realise that 90% of what we do here
in the House is almost completely useless"
"Well that still leaves 10%"
"Yes, the 10% is where we know from the outset that it is *utterly and
completely useless* instead".


:-)

The Natural Philosopher

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Mar 1, 2011, 4:51:34 AM3/1/11
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Since when did you expect legislation to make sense?

>
> tim
>
>

Nick Odell

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Mar 5, 2011, 9:04:34 AM3/5/11
to

You mean you didn't see the Doctor Who Christmas Specials?

Nick

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