Mounting horizontal radiator vertically... is it possible?
mike
I've had a look for vertical rads and not really found any "normal"
ones, and I'm not inclined to spend a fortune on a designer one,
particularly when it doesn't have the BTUs required to heat the space.
So is it possible to mount a standard horizontal radiator vertically
(with both valves running vertically downwards on the bottom (ie. what
would ordinarily be one side of the rad) or does that come under the
heading of Really Stupid Idea? (And if so, why?)
It would be great if I could just take this 300x1200 rad from Screwfix...
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?cId=101444&ts=66312&id=21132
... and turn it through 90 degrees, but life's not that simple, is it???
Martin Pentreath
It would get warm, but I don't think it would work very efficiently.
Those things are designed so that the water takes a path through which
heats the whole rad. The convector fins then help to heat the air by
convection. If you turn one through 90 degrees then the water will
have an easy vertical path from one valve to the other, so I suspect a
large part of the rad won't get very hot, and the fins won't really
work at all.
(You would also have to make sure that the bleeding valve is at the
top, not the bottom.)
Cheers!
Martin
Newshound
"Martin Pentreath" <martin_p...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1190569224.3...@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
at the bottom and bleed at the top. I agree that it may not be quite so
efficient as in the normal orientation but I wouldn't agonise over it.
Andrew Gabriel
It won't work very well because the fins will be the wrong
orientation for convection to operate. Might even insulate those
sides of the panel more than if they weren't there.
Go to a builders/plumbers merchant who will be able to order such
sizes for you from the manufacturers, rather than outlets such as
the sheds and screwfix which do just a few fixed sizes.
I've used Ultraheat4 range, and the manufacturers will make up
sizes they don'e have in stock. Unfortunately Pitacs website is
complete crap, but there's part of the Ultraheat leaflet on it
here: http://www.pitacs.com/ultra/compact4_main.html
You could ask them to make up a 300x900mm single (SF) or double
(DF) radiator for you. The Ultraheat6 range is the same but has
addition flow and return connections into the underneath of the
radiator, so it needs no side clearance.
If you're anywhere near Bedfordshire, the following plumbers
merchant will order you in Ultraheat4/6 radiators for next day
if the manufacturer has them in stock (but don't do mail order):
Dunstable Plumbing & Heating Merchants Ltd
137, High St North, Dunstable, Bedfordshire LU6 1JN
Tel: 01582 668893
--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]
Steve Walker
On the only available bit of wall in our kitchen, we have two small
radiators mounted one above the other and connected with chrome plated pipe
and fittings.
Steve W
John Rumm
You would need to alter the brackets in some way since they are usually
designed to allow the rad to hang on them only in one orientation.
--
Cheers,
John.
/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/
Ed Sirett
It would almost certainly be better to use the available width to fit a
rad with two or even three panels. A rad mounted vertically won't have the
output that it would have horizontally.
--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
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Newshound
"Andrew Gabriel" <and...@cucumber.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:46f6aac5$0$767$5a6a...@news.aaisp.net.uk...
I'd assumed he was looking at a standard, not a high output. John's right
about having to bodge the hangers too, of course. But I still think if looks
and output aren't critical that it might be good enough for the job.
mike
"Newshound" <news...@fairadsl.co.uk> wrote:
> I'd assumed he was looking at a standard, not a high output. John's right
> about having to bodge the hangers too, of course. But I still think if looks
> and output aren't critical that it might be good enough for the job.
Thanks for all the replies.
The rad I was looking at was a double rad as that was the only way to
get the needed BTUs. I'd imagined bolting a bar across the existing
brackets to create a new hanging bracket.
I looked at sites of major manufacturers like Stelrad and Myson and they
don't seem to do narrow tall ones - not to the extent I'd need anyway.
Is it likely there are special-order items available through merchants
that they just don't mention?
The Ultraheat sounds interesting and I may drop them an email but I'd
prefer something taller and off-the-shelf.
What percentage of heat output is actually tied to convector fins? The
old school-style rads seemed to pump out plenty without fins.
The Natural Philosopher
Just a thought, but consider forced air convectors. Up to 5 times the
output from the same size..
Andrew Gabriel
The Natural Philosopher <a@b.c> writes:
>
> Just a thought, but consider forced air convectors. Up to 5 times the
> output from the same size..
Could have an interlock which switched off the fan when the
front door is open, just like walk-in fridge/freezers do to
avoid blowing too much of the inside air outside.
George
"mike" <nos...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:nospam-E71FDB....@news.ntli.net...
Couldn't you get two towel rads in the room?
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?cId=101234&ts=30468&id=17165
Cicero
==================================
The double panel radiators sold by Wickes (own brand) have a clear 1/2"
gap between the fins so that if one of these were to be turned on its side
there would still be a vertical air flow path heated by the fins. I'm not
suggesting that you use one of these because they have some disadvantages
for your purpose (e.g. two bleed valves at opposite ends, no 300mm version
etc.) but you might look at other brands to see if they have the same
clear air gap between fins. Output would obviously be reduced but possibly
not unacceptably so.
I think it's quite likely that most double panel radiators are made up
from two singles so you might get lucky.
Cic.
--
===================================
Using Ubuntu Linux
Windows shown the door
===================================
Cicero
==================================
I forgot to mention that you might get over potential water flow problems
by using a twin entry valve something like this:
http://images.google.co.uk/images?hl=en&q=twin+entry+valve&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2
These are usually used with an internal copper or plastic extension tube
to get the return flow.
Andrew Gabriel
Cicero <shel...@hellfire.co.uk> writes:
> The double panel radiators sold by Wickes (own brand) have a clear 1/2"
> gap between the fins so that if one of these were to be turned on its side
> there would still be a vertical air flow path heated by the fins. I'm not
> suggesting that you use one of these because they have some disadvantages
> for your purpose (e.g. two bleed valves at opposite ends, no 300mm version
> etc.) but you might look at other brands to see if they have the same
> clear air gap between fins. Output would obviously be reduced but possibly
> not unacceptably so.
You can get what I think my plumbers merchant called a
one-and-a-half panel radiator. It's a double panel radiator
but made slimmer by not having any fins on one of the
panels, which would work better in the wrong orientation.
They are the Type HF in the Ultraheat link I posted earlier.
Cicero
> In article <pan.2007.09.24....@hellfire.co.uk>,
> Cicero <shel...@hellfire.co.uk> writes:
>> The double panel radiators sold by Wickes (own brand) have a clear 1/2"
>> gap between the fins so that if one of these were to be turned on its
>> side there would still be a vertical air flow path heated by the fins.
>> I'm not suggesting that you use one of these because they have some
>> disadvantages for your purpose (e.g. two bleed valves at opposite ends,
>> no 300mm version etc.) but you might look at other brands to see if they
>> have the same clear air gap between fins. Output would obviously be
>> reduced but possibly not unacceptably so.
---------------------------------
>
> You can get what I think my plumbers merchant called a one-and-a-half
> panel radiator. It's a double panel radiator but made slimmer by not
> having any fins on one of the panels, which would work better in the wrong
> orientation. They are the Type HF in the Ultraheat link I posted earlier.
==================================
You're right - pictured here:
http://www.inspiredheating.co.uk/acatalog/ULTRAHEAT_PLANAL_COMPACT_RADIATORS.html
Pete C
> On the only available bit of wall in our kitchen, we have two small
> radiators mounted one above the other and connected with chrome plated pipe
> and fittings.
I'd do this, if they were 'boxed in' then the output might go up due
to a chimney effect. Plus the outside of the boxed in bit could be
used for a noticeboard or narrow shelves.
cheers,
Pete.
Doctor Drivel
> In article <5lo8uiF...@mid.individual.net>,
> "Newshound" <news...@fairadsl.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> I'd assumed he was looking at a standard, not a high output. John's right
>> about having to bodge the hangers too, of course. But I still think if
>> looks
>> and output aren't critical that it might be good enough for the job.
>
>
> Thanks for all the replies.
Where is it to be fitted? Kitchen?
Andy Hall
Doesn't work.
This is the same idea as a radiator cover.
Most manufacturers and HVAC sources suggest derating the radiator by up
to 30% with a radiator cover.
meow...@care2.com
A few possibles:
* forced air rads
* under plinth version of these may be a good option for kitchens
* heated wall - see cant find the link, but it was discussed here a
while ago. Idea is to put tubing inside a stud wall so the whole wall
reaches 30C or so.
* Standard rads can have their output increased to some extent
with a small fan.
NT
Martin Bonner
> * heated wall - see cant find the link, but it was discussed here a
> while ago. Idea is to put tubing inside a stud wall so the whole wall
> reaches 30C or so.
Beware: When being shown around a German eco kit-house building firm
we were shown their meeting room with a heated wall. They said it had
two problems: I think one was that the heating and cooling meant
there was a lot of cracking where the wall met the ceiling and
floor. The other was definitely that you couldn't put a nail or a
screw in!
Cicero
===================================
The link (heated wall):
mike
"Doctor Drivel" <Min...@nospam.com> wrote:
> Where is it to be fitted? Kitchen?
Yeah, kitchen-diner and there really is very little wall-space - no more
than 60cm which also has to accomodate a light switch. So the 30cm
rad-on-end would be ideal and would fill the otherwise useless bit of
wall.
I looked at towel rads but they don't go that thin or as tall as the 300
x 1400 standard rad at Screwfix.
I searched the group re: kickspace heaters but several people said they
were noisy and/or inefficient.
I considered the ordinary short rads linked via chrome pipe but I'd need
three above each other to get the BTUs which I think could start to look
a little odd.
There's no stud partition for a heated wall so that option is out.
Thanks - Cic and AG - for the info on the twin entry valves and the 1.5
panel rads.
I'm surprised that you can't just get a tall, narrow, plain rad from one
of the main suppliers - it would be the economic, discreet, low-tech
solution . I'm sure I remember seeing them in the Wickes booklet many
years ago, and being short of wall space doesn't seem like an entirly
uncommon problem.
Pete C
> On 2007-09-24 13:00:32 +0100, Pete C <petecn...@gmail.com> said:
>
> > On Sep 23, 7:18 pm, Steve Walker <st...@theend.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >> On the only available bit of wall in our kitchen, we have two small
> >> radiators mounted one above the other and connected with chrome plated pipe
> >> and fittings.
>
> > I'd do this, if they were 'boxed in' then the output might go up due
> > to a chimney effect. Plus the outside of the boxed in bit could be
> > used for a noticeboard or narrow shelves.
>
> > cheers,
> > Pete.
>
> Doesn't work.
>
> This is the same idea as a radiator cover.
No it isn't.
> Most manufacturers and HVAC sources suggest derating the radiator by up
> to 30% with a radiator cover.
Yes, that's a radiator cover, not a chimney.
cheers,
Pete.
Andy Hall
> On Sep 24, 1:44 pm, Andy Hall <an...@hall.nospam> wrote:
>> On 2007-09-24 13:00:32 +0100, Pete C <petecn...@gmail.com> said:
>>
>>> On Sep 23, 7:18 pm, Steve Walker <st...@theend.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On the only available bit of wall in our kitchen, we have two small
>>>> radiators mounted one above the other and connected with chrome plated pipe
>>>> and fittings.
>>
>>> I'd do this, if they were 'boxed in' then the output might go up due
>>> to a chimney effect. Plus the outside of the boxed in bit could be
>>> used for a noticeboard or narrow shelves.
>>
>>> cheers,
>>> Pete.
>>
>> Doesn't work.
>>
>> This is the same idea as a radiator cover.
>
> No it isn't.
Yes it is. The result will be the same.
>
>> Most manufacturers and HVAC sources suggest derating the radiator by up
>> to 30% with a radiator cover.
>
> Yes, that's a radiator cover, not a chimney.
There will be a substantial reduction in output from a radiator
arrangement that is already less than optimal. This is not a useful
idea for this application.
Pete C
Last time I looked a rad cover had lots of small holes all over and a
shelf on top, and a chimney just a hole at top and bottom.
If you think they're the same, then I'm happy to agree to disagree on
this one :)
cheers,
Pete.
meow...@care2.com
There would be some differential expansion, this is addressed by
using silicone as caulk around the edges. Bear in mind youre
looking at an external surface temp of just 25-30C
The nail and screw question is solved by hanging the pipes on wire
or string, leaving them free to move out the way as a screw comes
through.
Thanks to Cicero for the link, google didnt retrieve it earlier.
AFAIK no-one here has tried the proposed wall, me included, but
the potential issues appear to have been addressed, so its
something I'd certainly try out if the need comes up.
NT
Doctor Drivel
> In article <46f7aa2c$0$47150$892e...@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net>,
> "Doctor Drivel" <Min...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>> Where is it to be fitted? Kitchen?
>
>
> Yeah, kitchen-diner and there really is very little wall-space - no more
> than 60cm which also has to accomodate a light switch.
> I searched the group re: kickspace
> heaters but several people said they
> were noisy and/or inefficient.
They are not inefficient if you get the right model. Also the Smiths model
is rated better.
I would go with a plinth a heater Kicksace or Smiths.
Cicero
==================================
But they are expensive and for the same cost the OP could get a basic wet
'designer' radiator. Expense is the main reason he is looking for an
alternative solution.
Doctor Drivel
"Cicero" <shel...@hellfire.co.uk> wrote in message
news:pan.2007.09.25....@hellfire.co.uk...
> On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 00:29:59 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote:
>
>>
>> "mike" <nos...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:nospam-167AF3....@news.ntli.net...
>>> In article <46f7aa2c$0$47150$892e...@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net>,
>>> "Doctor Drivel" <Min...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Where is it to be fitted? Kitchen?
>>>
>>>
>>> Yeah, kitchen-diner and there really is very little wall-space - no more
>>> than 60cm which also has to accomodate a light switch.
>>
>>> I searched the group re: kickspace
>>> heaters but several people said they
>>> were noisy and/or inefficient.
>>
>> They are not inefficient if you get the right model. Also the Smiths
>> model
>> is rated better.
>>
>> I would go with a plinth a heater Kicksace or Smiths.
>
> ==================================
> But they are expensive and for the same cost the OP could get a basic wet
> 'designer' radiator. Expense is the main reason he is looking for an
> alternative solution.
He has little space, and will the radiator be man enough to heat the place.
I would go for a plinth heater. Well worth it.
RobertL
> We have a large space to heat with very little available wall space.
>
> I've had a look for vertical rads and not really found any "normal"
> ones, and I'm not inclined to spend a fortune on a designer one,
> particularly when it doesn't have the BTUs required to heat the space.
We have the same problem. We also found that the tall thin rads are
all 'designer' rads with tiny heat outputs and huge price tags. We
worked out that running an equivanlent electric heater would be
cheaper (even over 10 years) than buying a designer rad.
have you considered mounting a series of small conventional rads one
above the other?
Robert
mike
"Doctor Drivel" <Min...@nospam.com> wrote:
> > But they are expensive and for the same cost the OP could get a basic wet
> > 'designer' radiator. Expense is the main reason he is looking for an
> > alternative solution.
>
> He has little space, and will the radiator be man enough to heat the place.
> I would go for a plinth heater. Well worth it.
Doesn't a plinth heater have the effect of heating the contents of the
cupboard above it?
Doctor Drivel
Not if it has a zone valve controlling it. Then if piped up right, only the
plinth heater can be on and the rest of the house off. The kitchen will be
a CH zone in itself. They can also have wall stats to sense the room
temperature far better reducing heating bills and improving comfort
conditions. They also blow heat at foot level across the floor, which is
superb on cold mornings. The are only noisy on the full fan speeds.
If no zone valve, a thin sheet of insulation under the cupboard will prevent
much of the heat, heating above.
meow...@care2.com
I might just have got it. Why not make a rad from pipes like the
first rads were done? They had a row of many vertical pipes, plumbed
together along the top to the outlet at one end, and plumbed together
along the bottom to the inlet pipe. Simple, characterful, and dust
gathering, but a duster should clean it up pretty quickly.
NT
Ian_m
pipe in the tiny gap in his kitchen wall as a "home made" radiator fitted by
the previous owners. Looked like some of the modern designer radiators you
can get nowadays. Worked well, but kitchen was very small. I think is was
just 6 vertical runs of pipe in one long loop.
When kitchen was extended and redone it was replaced with kick space
radiators..
"mike" <nos...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:nospam-E71FDB....@news.ntli.net...
> We have a large space to heat with very little available wall space.
>
> I've had a look for vertical rads and not really found any "normal"
> ones, and I'm not inclined to spend a fortune on a designer one,
> particularly when it doesn't have the BTUs required to heat the space.
>
mike
meow...@care2.com wrote:
> I might just have got it. Why not make a rad from pipes like the
> first rads were done? They had a row of many vertical pipes, plumbed
> together along the top to the outlet at one end, and plumbed together
> along the bottom to the inlet pipe. Simple, characterful, and dust
> gathering, but a duster should clean it up pretty quickly.
> NT
I had considered this... and what stopped me was the thought of the
monster I might inadvertantly create...
manat...@hotmail.com
> "mike" <nos...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:nospam-77631B....@news.ntli.net...
>
> > "Doctor Drivel" <Min...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> >> > But they are expensive and for the same cost the OP could get a basic
> >> > wet
> >> > 'designer' radiator. Expense is the main reason he is looking for an
> >> > alternative solution.
>
> >> He has little space, and will the radiator
> >> be man enough to heat the place.
> >> I would go for a plinth heater. Well worth it.
>
> > Doesn't a plinth heater have the effect
> > of heating the contents of the cupboard above it?
>
> Not if it has a zone valve controlling it. Then if piped up right, only the
> plinth heater can be on and the rest of the house off. The kitchen will be
> a CH zone in itself. They can also have wall stats to sense the room
> temperature far better reducing heating bills and improving comfort
> conditions. They also blow heat at foot level across the floor, which is
> superb on cold mornings. The are only noisy on the full fan speeds.
What has any of that got to do with heat escaping into the cupboard
above?
> If no zone valve, a thin sheet of insulation under the cupboard will prevent
> much of the heat, heating above.
That's better. You see, you can do it when you try.
MBQ
manat...@hotmail.com
> In article <46f7aa2c$0$47150$892e7...@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net>,
> "Doctor Drivel" <Min...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> > Where is it to be fitted? Kitchen?
>
> Yeah, kitchen-diner and there really is very little wall-space - no more
> than 60cm which also has to accomodate a light switch. So the 30cm
> rad-on-end would be ideal and would fill the otherwise useless bit of
> wall.
>
> I looked at towel rads but they don't go that thin or as tall as the 300
> x 1400 standard rad at Screwfix.
>
> I searched the group re: kickspace heaters but several people said they
> were noisy and/or inefficient.
>
> I considered the ordinary short rads linked via chrome pipe but I'd need
> three above each other to get the BTUs which I think could start to look
> a little odd.
Why not use two normal rads, one in front of the other? You'll need to
make some kind of brackets for the front one.
MBQ
Clint Sharp
meow...@care2.com writes
>I might just have got it. Why not make a rad from pipes like the
>first rads were done? They had a row of many vertical pipes, plumbed
>together along the top to the outlet at one end, and plumbed together
>along the bottom to the inlet pipe. Simple, characterful, and dust
>gathering, but a duster should clean it up pretty quickly.
not a lot of money if you wanted to.
>
>
>NT
>
--
Clint Sharp
Doctor Drivel
<manat...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1190816619.2...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
...or have them haging from the ceiling with mod-art all over them.
Doctor Drivel
<manat...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1190816346....@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
So, can you when you read properly.
manat...@hotmail.com
> On 26 Sep,
>
> > What has any of that got to do with heat escaping into the cupboard
> > above?
>
> ventilated and the warm air exits to the front. The pipes are lagged which
> leaves little opportunity for excess heat escaping to the cupboards.
>
That's true regardless of whether the room is on a seperate zone.
MBQ
manat...@hotmail.com
> <manatba...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
Warm air rises, they need to be on the floor. Perhaps we should hang
you from the ceiling as mod art. Then we wouldn't notice the hot air
so much.
MBQ
meow...@care2.com
Hopefully all you'd be doing is soldering, not using the high
voltage machine.
There are pics of early rads online if you want to see what they look
like. Try
http://www.hevac-heritage.org/site_map/site_map.htm
NT
KD1
You could use TBOE connections just like the old days. Should work perfectly.
--
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