Problem with old-syle oil-imersed arc welder

[orion....@virgin.net]

Hi all,

I think the arc welder I have may be faulty. It's an old Olympic one from the early 80s and looks indistinguishable from an Oxford of the same vintage and amperage.
This thing can run off 3 phase or single and I have it hooked up to the 230v mains just for test purposes. The input connectors are marked: 415V, 400V, 230V, 0V and earth. I've connected the mains live to the 230v terminal, the nuetral to the 0V one, and earth to earth. It hums reassuringly when powered up, but there's no output voltage present at all so far as I can see, for either the 50V or the 80V outputs.
Is there something obvious I've overlooked here? Should I short the unused inputs together, for example? Or tie 'em to ground? How likely is it that the secondary winding in something this substantial could fail? Looks like I'm gonna have to take the lid off, but I thought I'd run it past you guys first, just in case there's something else I should check first...

thanks.

[Harry Bloomfield]

I would expect there to be some sort of output regualator on it, which
varies the tapping point continuously, via a large adjusting know,
moving a brush along the taps. Maybe the brush has disintegrated actual
windings are unlikely to fail. Have you checked the outputs with a
meter?

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

[Bob Minchin]

With reference to you considering running this welder from a converter.
It will not work at all. What you have is a single phase welder that can
run from SINGLE PHASE either 415v, 400v or 230v.
It is NOT a three phase welder and never will be.

Your suggestion about connecting the other inputs together really shows
that you are a danger to yourself and maybe others too.
Zero knowledge is a very dangerous thing!

[orion....@virgin.net]

It's not that kind of output control, Harry. It's not continuous but comes in discrete 5A steps between 25A and 300A according to the 'combination' setting of two large spring-loaded pointers that you have to pull up, twist to the required setting and let back down again. My decent DVM has picked a rotten time to go awol; I'm having to use a cheap analogue Draper, which isn't very sensitive at all. Nevertheless, it should be totally fine for measuring such an ultra low impedance source!!

[orion....@virgin.net]

Do try to keep up, mate. I've already binned that idea following the explanations I received here. The problem under discussion now is arising from the thing being powered up from a 230V single phase source.

[John Rumm]

On 16/07/2013 18:19, orion....@virgin.net wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I think the arc welder I have may be faulty. It's an old Olympic one
> from the early 80s and looks indistinguishable from an Oxford of the
> same vintage and amperage. This thing can run off 3 phase or single

I don't have an answer to your question, however do recall reading that
the Olympic and Oxford brands are owned by these folks:

http://www.youngswelding.co.uk/

Might be worth running your query past them...



--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

[orion....@virgin.net]

On Tuesday, 16 July 2013 20:51:01 UTC+2, John Rumm wrote:
> On 16/07/2013 18:19, orion....@virgin.net wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
>
> >
>
> > I think the arc welder I have may be faulty. It's an old Olympic one
>
> > from the early 80s and looks indistinguishable from an Oxford of the
>
> > same vintage and amperage. This thing can run off 3 phase or single
>
>
>
> I don't have an answer to your question, however do recall reading that
>
> the Olympic and Oxford brands are owned by these folks:
>
>
>
> http://www.youngswelding.co.uk/
>
>
>
> Might be worth running your query past them...
>

Thank you, John. I'll keep that in mind...

[ne...@sylva.icuklive.co.uk]

On Tue, 16 Jul 2013 19:51:01 +0100, John Rumm
<see.my.s...@nowhere.null> wrote:

>http://www.youngswelding.co.uk/
>
>Might be worth running your query past them...

I still remember collecting my 200A oxford with starter pack from that
address, 40 years ago.

AJH

[harryagain]

<orion....@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:871df9f7-ea80-4db9...@googlegroups.com...

The problem must be related to the secondary side as it's humming.
First. if it's "oil cooled" chuck it out as it is very like highly
carcinogenic PCB.
There is a whole raft of regulations for dealing with this stuff it is
reckoned so dangerous.
Even tipping it is illegal.
Do NOT get this oil/fluid on you.

Check out the leads/clamps, it may only be a faulty lug.
Next. if the control knob turns multiple times it works by winding the iron
core in and out of the transformer, simple mechanical thing.
If the control knob turns less than 360deg there will be a series of
contacts connected to tappings in the secondary of the transformer.
There will be some sort of spring that presses a brush against the contacts.
Likely the spring is defective.

[orion....@virgin.net]

On Wednesday, 17 July 2013 09:22:52 UTC+2, harryagain wrote:

<snip>

Well everything gives you cancer nowadays, it seems. I come from a less timid generation where we don't get obsessed with 'elf & safety. I'll wear latex gloves, but that's solely to do with the desire to avoid getting mucky than anything else.
I'm about to commence taking the thing apart and will report back here my findings in due course....

On the plus side, my DVM has started working again! :)

[Grimly Curmudgeon]

On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 05:25:15 -0700 (PDT), orion....@virgin.net
wrote:

>Well everything gives you cancer nowadays, it seems.

PCBs are pretty fucking nasty, though.
Suppose your dick drops off?

[orion....@virgin.net]

OK, I found the problem.

I used a mobile crane to lift off the lid. *All* the electro-mechanical contents are bolted to the underside of the lid on this model, so you can actually remove the complete workings from their oil bath with no difficulty (assuming you have some means of handling the weight involved).
The fault was immediately apparent. This type of welder has course and fine amperage adjustments as detailed elsewhere in this thread. The contacts of the course adjustment were virtually mint in their almost Victorian splendor. The fault was with the fine adjustment. Both adjustments rely on exactly the same system: transformer tappings determined by the movement of pointers described elsewhere on this thread. On the business end of the pointers' shafts down below the oil level, there's a contact in the form of a copper blade about 2mm thick which engages between the slot of a four-way range of springy copper receptacles. On the fine adjustment described, there is unmistakable evidence of heavy arching and charring during previous operation which to fix up goes beyond what a mere clean-up and re-profile would achieve.
I want to rescue this beast. There's nothing like an oil-cooled arc welder for tackling the real heavy jobs and despite their weight, you just can't beat 'em. So the question now is.... - please take note those here that dip into threads without reading the background first - .... where in the UK can I get oil-cooled arc welder spares, or if not that, then 1mm and 2mm thick copper sheet I can trim, bend and fit myself?

cheers.

[orion....@virgin.net]

This is a DIY group, ain't it? Someone here can recommend a suitable adhesive.

[polygonum]

Sticks like dick

Or, maybe, any Wood Glue, depending on...

--
Rod

[orion....@virgin.net]

Oh yeah, I meant to say in the previous post (for the benefit of our rather annoying pedants) that when the fine adjustment is shorted out, I get the expected 50 and 80V across the secondary which tends to support my hypothesis that the fine adjustment is fucked in the manner previously described.

[orion....@virgin.net]

I like it! The pedants here won't get it, but that's their tough luck. :)

[Tim Lamb]

In message <b7e54bcf-643e-459a...@googlegroups.com>,
orion....@virgin.net writes

Might this not be Beryllium Copper rather than plumbing stuff? Softens
with heat and loses the springiness.



--
Tim Lamb

[harryagain]

<orion....@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:ef82fc44-e36e-49c8...@googlegroups.com...

The "Oil" is very likely not oil and is very dangerous.
So dangerous that there are only two place in the country can dispose of it
(by incineration.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCBs

Look at the last item here.
http://www.alcorn-energy.com/tech6.htm

You could be locked up for even taking the cover off this thing.
You are putting yourself and your family at risk.
Why are you such a half wit?

[Chris J Dixon]

harryagain wrote:

>The "Oil" is very likely not oil and is very dangerous.
>So dangerous that there are only two place in the country can dispose of it
>(by incineration.)
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCBs
>
>Look at the last item here.
>http://www.alcorn-energy.com/tech6.htm
>
>You could be locked up for even taking the cover off this thing.
>You are putting yourself and your family at risk.
>Why are you such a half wit?
>

Whilst it is certainly true that PCB was used in some
transformers, it was never universal, and you have no evidence
that there is any in this particular transformer.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK
ch...@cdixon.me.uk

Plant amazing Acers.

[orion....@virgin.net]

I've just spoken to the MD no less at Youngs (the link some helpful person pointed me to elsewhere on this thread. He has a message for you. He says you're talking "absolute rubbish" and should "go boil your head". The oil in this transformers is entirely benign, you can eat chips fried in it, he reckons. You are getting mixed up with some weird synthetic shit that was all the vogue 40 years ago in the electrical distribution industry and was never used in these welders with which he has been personally and intimately acquainted for over 50 years, so I suggest you get your facts right before indulging in personal abuse and outrageous scaremongering. End of.

[orion....@virgin.net]

Just to tie this up, I've been on to Youngs (the manufacturers of Oxford/Olympic welders)and ordered replacement components to put this thing back into fully working order. Not cheap, these high quality English-made parts, but it'll still be going in another 30 years and will be perfectly happy to work flat-out for as long as needed. Something you can't claim for your crappy chinese inverters and turbos.

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 18/07/13 13:06, Huge wrote:

> On 2013-07-18, orion....@virgin.net <orion....@virgin.net> wrote:
>> On Thursday, 18 July 2013 07:40:51 UTC+2, harryagain wrote:
>>> <orion....@virgin.net> wrote in message

> [80 lines snipped]

>
>> I suggest you get your facts right before indulging in personal abuse
>> and outrageous scaremongering. End of.

> It's harry. Just killfile and forget him.
>
>
Exactly, as a general rule, like anybody advocating renewable energy,
you can more or less guarantee that everything he says is, if not an
outright lie, so much a distortion of the truth as to be useless.


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

[Nightjar]

On 18/07/2013 12:29, orion....@virgin.net wrote:
> On Thursday, 18 July 2013 07:40:51 UTC+2, harryagain wrote:

...

>> The "Oil" is very likely not oil and is very dangerous.
>> So dangerous that there are only two place in the country can dispose of it
>> (by incineration.)
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCBs
>>
>> Look at the last item here.
>> http://www.alcorn-energy.com/tech6.htm
>>
>> You could be locked up for even taking the cover off this thing.
>> You are putting yourself and your family at risk.
>> Why are you such a half wit?
>
> I've just spoken to the MD no less at Youngs (the link some helpful person pointed me to elsewhere on this thread. He has a message for you. He says you're talking "absolute rubbish" and should "go boil your head". The oil in this transformers is entirely benign, you can eat chips fried in it, he reckons. You are getting mixed up with some weird synthetic shit that was all the vogue 40 years ago in the electrical distribution industry and was never used in these welders with which he has been personally and intimately acquainted for over 50 years, so I suggest you get your facts right before indulging in personal abuse and outrageous scaremongering. End of.
>

But that is Harry's stock in trade.

Colin Bignell

[orion....@virgin.net]

>
> But that is Harry's stock in trade.
>
>

A militant green nut, then. They cost us all a fortune by putting the price of everything up in the pursuit of their loony and largely unsubstantiated ideas.

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 18/07/13 15:04, orion....@virgin.net wrote:
>> But that is Harry's stock in trade.
>>
>>
> A militant green nut, then. They cost us all a fortune by putting the price of everything up in the pursuit of their loony and largely unsubstantiated ideas.
>

Wrong.

They cost us all a fortune by putting the price of everything up in the pursuit of their own personal profit 'excused' by loony and largely unsubstantiated ideas.

[harryagain]

<orion....@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:6b0d065a-23e2-45e2...@googlegroups.com...

The stuff was universally used back then, it's electrical properties are so
superior to oil. And it was cheaper.
Only much later was it discovered how nasty it was. So ther eis still lots
of it about.
It was very foolish of the OP to meddle with it without checking first.

I would want to get that information in writing too. And I would want it
from a technical person not the MD who has every reason to deny this tuff
was ever used by them due to possible legal action which were taken in the
past against some manufacturers

[harryagain]

"Nightjar" <c...@insert.my.surname.here.me.uk> wrote in message
news:OcKdnSRt3vOUbnrM...@giganews.com...

You are a half wit.
http://www.foxriverwatch.com/monsanto2a_pcb_pcbs.html
These are well known industrial pollutants and were in universal use.

The manufacturers of all large capacitors, transformers and switchgear used
them at some point until the dangers were discovered.

[harryagain]

<orion....@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:6b0d065a-23e2-45e2...@googlegroups.com...

Welll that makes you pretty credulous. He would be the last person to ask.
Get it off him in writing, he might not be so keen then and may not have
been born when this stuff was first identified as hazardous.
It was used in everything electrical virtually that once held oil because
it's electrical properties (and cost) are so superior.
As usual the industry went into denial first, he seems to be still that way.

http://www.epa.gov/osw/hazard/tsd/pcbs/pubs/effects.htm

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/msa19.htm

[Nightjar]

So, I have the choice of accepting the word of somebody who is uniquely
qualified to know exactly what was used in this welder or somebody with
an axe to grind whom I cannot recall getting anything right in his
postings to this group. Difficult choice.

Colin Bignell

[Nightjar]

On 18/07/2013 20:07, harryagain wrote:
> <orion....@virgin.net> wrote in message

> news:6b0d065a-23e2-45e2...@googlegroups.com...
...

>> I've just spoken to the MD no less at Youngs (the link some helpful person
>> pointed me to elsewhere on this thread. He has a message for you. He says
>> you're talking "absolute rubbish" and should "go boil your head". The oil in
>> this transformers is entirely benign, you can eat chips fried in it, he
>> reckons. You are getting mixed up with some weird synthetic shit that was
>> all the vogue 40 years ago in the electrical distribution industry and was
>> never used in these welders with which he has been personally and intimately
>> acquainted for over 50 years, so I suggest you get your facts right before
>> indulging in personal abuse and outrageous scaremongering. End of.
>
> Welll that makes you pretty credulous. He would be the last person to ask.
> Get it off him in writing, he might not be so keen then and may not have
> been born when this stuff was first identified as hazardous.
> It was used in everything electrical virtually that once held oil because
> it's electrical properties (and cost) are so superior.
> As usual the industry went into denial first, he seems to be still that way.
>
> http://www.epa.gov/osw/hazard/tsd/pcbs/pubs/effects.htm
>
> http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/msa19.htm

The OP has done exactly what the HSE recommend in that last - he has
checked with the manufacturer.

As it happens, I had one of these welders to dispose of some years ago.
The oil in it went to a specialist company that dealt with all our
chemical waste. I am sure they would have told us had it been anything
other the mineral oil we said we sent them, if only because they could
have charged a lot more for anything hazardous.

Colin Bignell

[Mr Fuxit]

[Mr Fuxit]

On Thursday, 18 July 2013 12:35:21 UTC+1, orion....@virgin.net wrote:

> Just to tie this up, I've been on to Youngs (the manufacturers of Oxford/Olympic welders)and ordered replacement components to put this thing back into fully working order. Not cheap, these high quality English-made parts, but it'll still be going in another 30 years and will be perfectly happy to work flat-out for as long as needed. Something you can't claim for your crappy chinese inverters and turbos.

Did you ask about the single/three-phase option?

[orion....@virgin.net]

On Thursday, 18 July 2013 22:04:42 UTC+2, Mr Fuxit wrote:

> Did you ask about the single/three-phase option?

Not sure what you mean, so I'll try to cover everything. This welder can run off both. With a single phase 230A supply, it puts out up to 220A; with 3 phase it puts out a maximum of 300A. Voltage options are 50v open circuit and 80v open circuit regardless of the supply voltage option. You don't have do tie any unused inputs together or to earth. For the benefit of the pedants here, when I say it can run off 3 phase what I actually mean is that it runs off 2 of the live phases of a 3 phase supply; the 3rd is unused.

[Grimly Curmudgeon]

On Thu, 18 Jul 2013 04:35:21 -0700 (PDT), orion....@virgin.net
wrote:

>Just to tie this up, I've been on to Youngs (the manufacturers of Oxford/Olympic welders)and ordered replacement components to put this thing back into fully working order. Not cheap, these high quality English-made parts, but it'll still be going in another 30 years and will be perfectly happy to work flat-out for as long as needed. Something you can't claim for your crappy chinese inverters and turbos.

Excellent bits of kit, those.
I can't be sure it was a Young's unit I had the use of, but the
marvellous thing about it, was its ability to strike and hold an arc
on the thinnest of rods - very controllable, very stable.
When the works closed down I was all ready to hoik that one into the
back of my car but the bastard works foreman beat me to it.

[John Rumm]

On 18/07/2013 06:40, harryagain wrote:
> <orion....@virgin.net> wrote in message
> news:ef82fc44-e36e-49c8...@googlegroups.com...

Harry, which part of

>> I want to rescue this beast. There's nothing like an oil-cooled arc welder
>> for tackling the real heavy jobs and despite their weight, you just can't

Did you not understand?

> The "Oil" is very likely not oil and is very dangerous.

Probably bollocks, but either way not important since he is keeping it...



--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

[Tony Bryer]

On Sat, 20 Jul 2013 02:43:40 +0100 Grimly Curmudgeon wrote :
> On Thu, 18 Jul 2013 04:35:21 -0700 (PDT), orion....@virgin.net
> wrote:
>
> >Just to tie this up, I've been on to Youngs (the manufacturers of
> >Oxford/Olympic welders)and ordered replacement components to put this
> >thing back into fully working order. Not cheap, these high quality
> >English-made parts, but it'll still be going in another 30 years and
> >will be perfectly happy to work flat-out for as long as needed.
> >Something you can't claim for your crappy chinese inverters and turbos.
>
> Excellent bits of kit, those.

Nice to be reminded of my old home town, Twickenham and to know that such
a firm has stayed in business - bit odd for their website to have no
product info though. They must be one of the few survivors of all the
industry that was in that locale, principally the Automotive Products
component factory (pistons etc) facing Twickenham Green and the Scalecraft
toy factory that made clip-together battery-powered cars etc.

--
Tony Bryer, Greentram: 'Software to build on',
Melbourne, Australia www.greentram.com

[Grimly Curmudgeon]

On Sun, 21 Jul 2013 19:08:57 +1000, Tony Bryer
<to...@delme.greentram.com> wrote:

>> Excellent bits of kit, those.
>
>Nice to be reminded of my old home town, Twickenham

Now, I do recall it was made in Twickenham.
"Oxford" really rings a bell - jeez, you'd think that somewhere on the
web there would be a pic of an Oxford welder.

[Grimly Curmudgeon]

Oh, there's the fecker...
http://tinyurl.com/oxford-welder

It was the Twickenham that was screwing up the results.

[Grimly Curmudgeon]

On Sun, 21 Jul 2013 10:33:27 +0100, Grimly Curmudgeon
<gri...@gmail.com> wrote:

Aha, wrong direction; this is identical to the one I had...
http://www.cottandco.com/lots/oxford-oil-cooled-arc-welder
Made in N'pton shire, nothing to do with Youngs as it turns out.