flatpack kitchen - to glue or not to glue

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sm_jamieson

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Jan 25, 2011, 3:56:53 AM1/25/11
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Flatpack kitchen will be built soon-ish (next few months ;-)
Obviously glueing would be a good idea, but then it cannot be
dissassembled (not that it ever would be ...)
Any tips or gotchas - just glue the cabinets together with PVA ?
I think it would be a good idea to assemble first without glue to make
sure you've done it correctly !
Simon.

Tim Watts

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Jan 25, 2011, 4:02:22 AM1/25/11
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sm_jamieson (sm_ja...@hotmail.com) wibbled on Tuesday 25 January 2011
08:56:

> Flatpack kitchen will be built soon-ish (next few months ;-)
> Obviously glueing would be a good idea, but then it cannot be
> dissassembled (not that it ever would be ...)
> Any tips or gotchas - just glue the cabinets together with PVA ?

Yes

> I think it would be a good idea to assemble first without glue to make
> sure you've done it correctly !

Yes


I glue all flatplack furniture and it is stronger for litle extra effort...

You will never take it to bits anyway.

> Simon.

--
Tim Watts

Nightjar

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Jan 25, 2011, 4:11:23 AM1/25/11
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Seconded

Colin Bignell

Tabby

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Jan 25, 2011, 4:14:08 AM1/25/11
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On Jan 25, 9:11 am, "Nightjar <\"cpb\"@" <"insertmysurnamehere> wrote:
> On 25/01/2011 09:02, Tim Watts wrote:
>
>
>
> > sm_jamieson (sm_jamie...@hotmail.com) wibbled on Tuesday 25 January 2011

I only glue when its of some advantage, and I dont think thats true
for kitchen units, which are far sturdier than standalone flatpack
items. Ability to dismantle & move is occasionally useful.


NT

harry

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Jan 25, 2011, 4:23:47 AM1/25/11
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It's pointless gluing most of it because the PVA does not take well
to the plastic finishes. You might need to dismantle it if it gets
water damaged.
One tip is that under the sink put a fillet of silicon round the
angles inside the cupboards. If you do get a leak it stops the
chipboard from getting damaged.
also paint the backs of the hardboard rear panels under the sink for
the same reason. The fronts of the back panelsare usually OK.
After you've done the first one everything is easy.
The worst bit is fitting the counter tops especially if it's a large
one and you have to cut joints and form corners. There are special
clamps that are very handy for making joints.
Don't get rubbishy drawers, you will regret it later. You know the
rubbish, it has plastic sliders/wheels and hardboard bottoms. If you
have hardboard bottoms it's worth replacing them with plywood.
Hardboard soon droops and looks a mess/falls out.

Make sure the counter is level. It's a pain in the bum if stuff keeps
rolling off or the hotplates are not level. There are usually
adjustable feet for this on the cabinets.

Nightjar

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Jan 25, 2011, 4:25:21 AM1/25/11
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There is nothing to stop you moving a kitchen unit as an assembly. It
saves the time of disassembly and reassembly and one that has been glued
will survive a move quite well. The only reason they are sold as flat
packs is that it saves warehouse space for the manufacturer and vendor.

Colin Bignell

Dave Liquorice

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Jan 25, 2011, 4:27:28 AM1/25/11
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On Tue, 25 Jan 2011 00:56:53 -0800 (PST), sm_jamieson wrote:

> Flatpack kitchen will be built soon-ish (next few months ;-)
> Obviously glueing would be a good idea, but then it cannot be
> dissassembled (not that it ever would be ...)

I wouldn't not for kitchen floor units anyway. Get a leak and if it's
all glued together you can't just remove the damaged bits and
replace. Properly installed the units aren't going anywhere as
they'll be screwed to the back wall, floor, and worktop.

--
Cheers
Dave.

sm_jamieson

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Jan 25, 2011, 4:38:18 AM1/25/11
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On Jan 25, 8:56 am, sm_jamieson <sm_jamie...@hotmail.com> wrote:

I could certainly seal all exposed chipboard edges. What would be the
best thing to use - a thin varnish ?
Simon.

Mark

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Jan 25, 2011, 4:41:11 AM1/25/11
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But you're unlikely to be able to get spares anyhow, unless it's a
really expensive kitchen. Do the plumbing properly and not likely to
get a leak.

I pretty much always glue flat pack to give it extra strength.
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Due to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking some articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.

Dave Liquorice

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Jan 25, 2011, 5:07:49 AM1/25/11
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On Tue, 25 Jan 2011 09:41:11 +0000, Mark wrote:

> But you're unlikely to be able to get spares anyhow, unless it's a
> really expensive kitchen.

Carcases are pretty universal, unit height and widths are
standardised...

> Do the plumbing properly and not likely to get a leak.

Most leaks in kitchens are from appliances or the connections to them
not the fixed plumbing. Or spills.

> I pretty much always glue flat pack to give it extra strength.

But a kitchen unit doesn't need any extra strength, it'll be fixed to
the wall, floor and worktop it's not going anywhere. A free standing
book case on the other hand might need a bit of assistance.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Andy Cap

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Jan 25, 2011, 5:29:13 AM1/25/11
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Dave Liquorice wrote:

> But a kitchen unit doesn't need any extra strength, it'll be fixed to
> the wall, floor and worktop it's not going anywhere. A free standing
> book case on the other hand might need a bit of assistance.
>

I have found that heavily loaded i.e. tins, utensils, etc cupboards
which are at the end of runs, are inclined to spread at the bottom and
would certainly think it's worth the extra effort, but I would use
Araldite, not PVA. Also I added support between floor and the centre of
lower shelf, also a bracket under the front of the upper shelf, onto the
central support. It really depends on how much life you want from them.

TheScullster

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Jan 25, 2011, 5:33:21 AM1/25/11
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"sm_jamieson" wrote in message

Are the pre-buit variety glued, or do they rely on factory fitted assembly
screws for their "integrity"?

Phil


Andy Dingley

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Jan 25, 2011, 5:41:03 AM1/25/11
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On Jan 25, 8:56 am, sm_jamieson <sm_jamie...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Any tips or gotchas - just glue the cabinets together with PVA ?

There's little point. A glued butt joint in end grain has negligible
strength. This is still the case for end grain chipboard / MDF.

If there are biscuits or dowels in use, this can make a better
arrangement for gluing.

Skipweasel

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Jan 25, 2011, 6:02:31 AM1/25/11
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In article <3f742a7b-2966-4606-87e7-d25eace474e3
@k13g2000vbq.googlegroups.com>, sm_ja...@hotmail.com says...

> Any tips or gotchas - just glue the cabinets together with PVA ?
>

Personally I wouldn't bother - ours has been in place for nearly ten
years and hasn't moved yet, and it wasn't a posh one either - just a B+Q
cheapie.

If you absolutely must, then where they fail is at the screw-holes - run
something runny like thin superglue into the hole first to harden the
wood - but don't put the screw in until it's set.

--
Skipweasel - never knowingly understood.

tim....

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Jan 25, 2011, 7:26:57 AM1/25/11
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"Tabby" <meow...@care2.com> wrote in message
news:10ff7640-188b-459e...@t8g2000prh.googlegroups.com...

On Jan 25, 9:11 am, "Nightjar <\"cpb\"@" <"insertmysurnamehere> wrote:
> On 25/01/2011 09:02, Tim Watts wrote:
>
>
>
> > sm_jamieson (sm_jamie...@hotmail.com) wibbled on Tuesday 25 January 2011
> > 08:56:
>
> >> Flatpack kitchen will be built soon-ish (next few months ;-)
> >> Obviously glueing would be a good idea, but then it cannot be
> >> dissassembled (not that it ever would be ...)
> >> Any tips or gotchas - just glue the cabinets together with PVA ?
>
> > Yes
>
> >> I think it would be a good idea to assemble first without glue to make
> >> sure you've done it correctly !
>
> > Yes
>
> > I glue all flatplack furniture and it is stronger for litle extra
> > effort...
>
> > You will never take it to bits anyway.
>
> >> Simon.
>
> Seconded
>
> Colin Bignell

I only glue when its of some advantage, and I dont think thats true
for kitchen units,

----------------------------------------------------------------

They may be true for base units that have a flipping great weight on them
keeping them "solid", but I don't think it's true for wall units

tim


tim....

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Jan 25, 2011, 7:29:07 AM1/25/11
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"sm_jamieson" <sm_ja...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3f742a7b-2966-4606...@k13g2000vbq.googlegroups.com...

I'm sure the expectation is that you don't glue, as otherwise these "door
replacement" companies wouldn't be able to replace the matching end panels
(which they seem to expect to do).

But I always glue

tim

tim....

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Jan 25, 2011, 7:31:59 AM1/25/11
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"Dave Liquorice" <allsortsn...@howhill.com> wrote in message
news:nyyfbegfubjuvyypb...@srv1.howhill.co.uk...

> On Tue, 25 Jan 2011 09:41:11 +0000, Mark wrote:
>
>> But you're unlikely to be able to get spares anyhow, unless it's a
>> really expensive kitchen.
>
> Carcases are pretty universal, unit height and widths are
> standardised...

As someone looking to replace a unit, to fit in a dishwasher, in my new (to
me) property, I can assure you that they are not.

tim

tim....

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Jan 25, 2011, 7:35:04 AM1/25/11
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"Andy Dingley" <din...@codesmiths.com> wrote in message
news:1d55f096-deb3-479d...@n18g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...

On Jan 25, 8:56 am, sm_jamieson <sm_jamie...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Any tips or gotchas - just glue the cabinets together with PVA ?

There's little point. A glued butt joint in end grain has negligible
strength. This is still the case for end grain chipboard / MDF.

---------------------------------------------------------------

It doesn't need to have much strength.

All it needs to do is to stop that little "wobble" that has a tendency
overtime, to undo the "cam and bolt" type fittings that seem to be common
nowadays.

tim


Nightjar

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Jan 25, 2011, 7:37:28 AM1/25/11
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On 25/01/2011 10:29, Andy Cap wrote:
> Dave Liquorice wrote:
>
>> But a kitchen unit doesn't need any extra strength, it'll be fixed to
>> the wall, floor and worktop it's not going anywhere. A free standing
>> book case on the other hand might need a bit of assistance.
>>
>
> I have found that heavily loaded i.e. tins, utensils, etc cupboards
> which are at the end of runs, are inclined to spread at the bottom and
> would certainly think it's worth the extra effort, but I would use
> Araldite, not PVA. ...

Hot melt glue works well.

Colin Bignell

Skipweasel

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Jan 25, 2011, 9:20:34 AM1/25/11
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In article <8q7u6p...@mid.individual.net>, tims_n...@yahoo.co.uk
says...

> > Carcases are pretty universal, unit height and widths are
> > standardised...
>
> As someone looking to replace a unit, to fit in a dishwasher, in my new (to
> me) property, I can assure you that they are not.
>

Indeed, this afternoon I've been putting Danish oil on the oak edgings
of a home-made carcas 'cos you can't get one to fit otherwise.

Tabby

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Jan 25, 2011, 9:32:58 AM1/25/11
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I've needed to disassemble a unit a couple of times. If it had been
glued, it would have meant a whole new kitchen. Since there's
absolutely no need to glue, the units are fixed to the walls and solid
enough, I dont.


NT

The Other Mike

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Jan 25, 2011, 5:10:48 PM1/25/11
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On Tue, 25 Jan 2011 09:27:28 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
<allsortsn...@howhill.com> wrote:

>Properly installed the units aren't going anywhere as
>they'll be screwed to the back wall, floor, and worktop.

<scratches head>
How, other than by gravity are they fixed to the floor?

Also the worktop is essentially fixed to the base units.


--

Skipweasel

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Jan 25, 2011, 5:29:03 PM1/25/11
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In article <riiuj6la6svg1vu42...@4ax.com>,
rootpa...@somewhereorother.com says...

> >Properly installed the units aren't going anywhere as
> >they'll be screwed to the back wall, floor, and worktop.
>
> <scratches head>
> How, other than by gravity are they fixed to the floor?
>
> Also the worktop is essentially fixed to the base units.
>

And to the wall. In my experience, once the worktop and the carcasses
are screwed to the wall and to each other, there ain't much moving.
Particularly once the worktop has been sealed to the tiles. The bead of
sealant may be flexible in small pieces, but a long run of it is very
resilient.

The Medway Handyman

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Jan 25, 2011, 7:00:35 PM1/25/11
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On 25/01/2011 09:14, Tabby wrote:
> items. Ability to dismantle& move is occasionally useful.

Agreed. If they are fixed to the wall & worktop they ain't going
anywhere. No point in gluing.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

The Medway Handyman

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Jan 25, 2011, 7:17:28 PM1/25/11
to
On 25/01/2011 09:23, harry wrote:
> On Jan 25, 8:56 am, sm_jamieson<sm_jamie...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Flatpack kitchen will be built soon-ish (next few months ;-)
>> Obviously glueing would be a good idea, but then it cannot be
>> dissassembled (not that it ever would be ...)
>> Any tips or gotchas - just glue the cabinets together with PVA ?
>> I think it would be a good idea to assemble first without glue to make
>> sure you've done it correctly !
>> Simon.
>
> It's pointless gluing most of it because the PVA does not take well
> to the plastic finishes. You might need to dismantle it if it gets
> water damaged.
> One tip is that under the sink put a fillet of silicon round the
> angles inside the cupboards. If you do get a leak it stops the
> chipboard from getting damaged.


That is an absolutely excellent idea, seen it done and it really does
prevent the chipboard turning into Wheatabix.

Nightjar

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Jan 26, 2011, 4:12:02 AM1/26/11
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On 26/01/2011 00:00, The Medway Handyman wrote:
...

>> I only glue when its of some advantage, and I dont think thats true
>> for kitchen units, which are far sturdier than standalone flatpack
>> items. Ability to dismantle& move is occasionally useful.
>
> Agreed. If they are fixed to the wall & worktop they ain't going
> anywhere. No point in gluing.

My view is that the act of fixing them to something solid could pull
them out of true if they are not glued to become a rigid structure to
begin with. Obviously, that is not something that will make commercial
sense if you are assembling them as a business and most people won't
notice anyway. However, every corner of every unit in my kitchen is
perfect if you test it with a set square.

Colin Bignell

Nightjar

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Jan 26, 2011, 4:15:38 AM1/26/11
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On 25/01/2011 14:32, Tabby wrote:
...

> I've needed to disassemble a unit a couple of times. If it had been
> glued, it would have meant a whole new kitchen. Since there's
> absolutely no need to glue, the units are fixed to the walls and solid
> enough, I dont.

I can't think of any way, short of destroying the unit, that I could
take a unit out of my kitchen without completely dismantling it into
individual carcases. As I said in reply to TMH, I take the view that it
is important to turn each carcase into a rigid and true structure before
fixing it to something solid, so that the act of fixing cannot pull it
out of true.

Colin Bignell

The Medway Handyman

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Jan 27, 2011, 6:37:49 PM1/27/11
to

Its not the commercial aspect, although gluing would take time, its
simply that I don't believe its necessary.

If I assemble & fix kitchen units I check they are square during & after
fixing - because if they aren't adjusting the doors is a PITA.

Dave Liquorice

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Jan 29, 2011, 7:18:01 AM1/29/11
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On Tue, 25 Jan 2011 22:10:48 +0000, The Other Mike wrote:

>> Properly installed the units aren't going anywhere as they'll be
>> screwed to the back wall, floor, and worktop.
>
> <scratches head>
> How, other than by gravity are they fixed to the floor?

Little metal bracket and screws.

> Also the worktop is essentially fixed to the base units.

If I can arrange it the worktop is self supporting as much as
possible, at the very least it will be on and attached to batten
fixed to the wall. The units are then fitted up to the worktop and
packed underneath as required to provide additional support. More
brackets and screws hold everything in place.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Dave Liquorice

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Jan 29, 2011, 7:20:33 AM1/29/11
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On Wed, 26 Jan 2011 09:12:02 +0000, "Nightjar wrote:

> My view is that the act of fixing them to something solid could pull
> them out of true if they are not glued to become a rigid structure to
> begin with.

Hum, not very good at getting fixings where we want them? Everything
is assembled and in the right place then fixed to prevent it moving,
nothing huge just to stop movement.

> However, every corner of every unit in my kitchen is perfect if you test
> it with a set square.

Must make for some interesting gap filling along the walls. B-)
I've yet to find any building that is truely square in all three
directions.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Dave Liquorice

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Jan 29, 2011, 7:14:00 AM1/29/11
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On Tue, 25 Jan 2011 12:31:59 -0000, tim.... wrote:

>> Carcases are pretty universal, unit height and widths are
>> standardised...
>
> As someone looking to replace a unit, to fit in a dishwasher, in my new
> (to me) property, I can assure you that they are not.

Built in dishwasher or freestanding?

So a 600mm wide unit from one maker isn't 600mm wide from another?

--
Cheers
Dave.

Skipweasel

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Jan 29, 2011, 8:14:57 AM1/29/11
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In article <nyyfbegfubjuvyypb...@srv1.howhill.co.uk>,
allsortsn...@howhill.com says...

> If I can arrange it the worktop is self supporting as much as
> possible, at the very least it will be on and attached to batten
> fixed to the wall
>

Ah - there we differ. I prefer to have the full weight of the worktop on
the carcasses and then screwed back the wall with angle-brackets -
though the sealant does most of the actual work.
I've done several like that and never had trouble with them coming
loose.

What's well worth doing is shoving a dab of polyurethane glue into the
holes in the walls first, so the screw is really well held in and
doesn't have any room to fret at the masonry.

tim....

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Jan 29, 2011, 6:14:20 PM1/29/11
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"Dave Liquorice" <allsortsn...@howhill.com> wrote in message
news:nyyfbegfubjuvyypb...@srv1.howhill.co.uk...
> On Tue, 25 Jan 2011 12:31:59 -0000, tim.... wrote:
>
>>> Carcases are pretty universal, unit height and widths are
>>> standardised...
>>
>> As someone looking to replace a unit, to fit in a dishwasher, in my new
>> (to me) property, I can assure you that they are not.
>
> Built in dishwasher or freestanding?

freestanding.

>
> So a 600mm wide unit from one maker isn't 600mm wide from another?

No, what I mean is, not all makers have 400 units to fit the gap

tim

The Other Mike

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Jan 31, 2011, 5:53:35 AM1/31/11
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On Sat, 29 Jan 2011 12:18:01 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
<allsortsn...@howhill.com> wrote:

>On Tue, 25 Jan 2011 22:10:48 +0000, The Other Mike wrote:
>
>>> Properly installed the units aren't going anywhere as they'll be
>>> screwed to the back wall, floor, and worktop.
>>
>> <scratches head>
>> How, other than by gravity are they fixed to the floor?
>
>Little metal bracket and screws.

All I've ever seen between the carcass and the floor are plastic legs
about an inch and a half diameter that are adjustable, they are in one
of the online catalogues Blum / Woodfit or Isaac Lord can't be sure
which.

I've not fitted a kitchen unit for over 25 years and the ones I
recently recycled for temporary storage in a garage were a couple of
years old and again of the plastic foot type with just a couple of
screws for fitting to a wall batten. I simply adjusted the feet to
the same distance from the base of the carcass, placed it on the near
level floor and screwed it to the wall, I couldn't see any metal
brackets although I didn't pull the unit out from the original
installation.

>> Also the worktop is essentially fixed to the base units.
>
>If I can arrange it the worktop is self supporting as much as
>possible, at the very least it will be on and attached to batten
>fixed to the wall. The units are then fitted up to the worktop and
>packed underneath as required to provide additional support. More
>brackets and screws hold everything in place.

But even then it's not really self supporting by being cantilevered
off the wall batten is it?


--

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