Any opinions on Rayburn or Alpha range cookers/boilers?
Richard
Alpha oil-fired cooker/hot water/central heating boiler.
Clearly Rayburn is the famous make but the largest they do seems to be
for upto 21 radiators and that is the exact number in our house which
makes me concerned about buying something upto it's maximum on day-one
(especially since we may extend in the future).
I understand that Alpha make a very similar model but allegedly has
the benefit of bigger ovens, bigger hot plate and independently
controllable oven/water/heating.
Does anyone own an Alpha and could give me an opinion? I have searched
the group and it's seems varied reports some time ago.
Any input or suggestions would be greatfully received.
Many thanks, in advance.
Richard.
David C
>Alpha oil-fired cooker/hot water/central heating boiler.
Also have a look at the Sandyford (www.sandyford.co.uk) which is very
similar to the Alpha. I haven't got one yet (need to build the kitchen
first) but plan to install some sort of range cooker in the summer.
Like all new buildings our kitchen will be well insulated. We were
specifically advised against an AGA because they generate too much
heat in the summer, we were told someone with a house like ours ended
up fitted aircon to the kitchen so they could use it in the summer !
The Alpha and Sandyford apparently don't radiate heat unless actually
cooking so are more suitable for modern buildings, the Sandyford
(burning oil) is also easy to fit, just uses 82mm plastic pipe which
is important to us as it needs to fit on an inside wall. It also has a
selectable output for central heating from 80,000 to 106,000 BTU
Hope this helps.
DC
Gordon Henderson
David C <avon...@totalise.co.uk> wrote:
>>We're looking to have fitted in our new kitchen either a Rayburn or an
>>Alpha oil-fired cooker/hot water/central heating boiler.
>
>Also have a look at the Sandyford (www.sandyford.co.uk) which is very
>similar to the Alpha. I haven't got one yet (need to build the kitchen
>first) but plan to install some sort of range cooker in the summer.
>
>Like all new buildings our kitchen will be well insulated. We were
>specifically advised against an AGA because they generate too much
>heat in the summer, we were told someone with a house like ours ended
>up fitted aircon to the kitchen so they could use it in the summer !
And to add another make to put your cooking pot on, have a look at
Stanley. (http://www.stanley-cookers.com) We did a lot of searching
and looking at various models and eventually bought one to replace an
55 year old coal fired Rayburn a few months ago and are really pleased
with it so far. (No ash, no coal dust, instant heat, woo hoo!)
Ours is gas fired (we already had mains gas) and only does the cooking
with the hot water as a side-effect (one burner) but most of their models
are dual burner (gas or oil) with one for cooking, the other for the hot
water and CH (We have an existing gas back boiler which does the CH and
HW if we need it - the Stanley keeps the water hot enough for a couple
of showers and washing up, etc. through the day.
It's also got a timer on it which will be handy in the summer - right now
it's on the low setting all the time to keep the kitchen warm (no other
source of heat in the kitchen) We crank it up when we cook on it which
is usually only once a day - I suspect if we were cooking 2 or 3 times
a day we'd keep it hot all the time. I'm not sure if they way we run it
is the most economical way to run it, time will tell...
Gordon
Richard
Thanks for the reply.
It seems to be a standard comment people make about the temperature in
the kitchen in the summer months with an Aga/Rayburn.
It would appear that the Alpha has independent control of the oven/hot
water/central heating so in theory you don't have to have it 'on' all
year round but I dare say you still have to wait a good 15 mins for
the oven to heat up if not.
If anyone reading this has knowledge of the Alpha range it would be
useful to hear about it.
Thanks.
avon...@totalise.co.uk (David C) wrote in message news:<3e145b10....@news.freeserve.net>...
Andy Hall
wrote:
>
>Like all new buildings our kitchen will be well insulated. We were
>specifically advised against an AGA because they generate too much
>heat in the summer, we were told someone with a house like ours ended
>up fitted aircon to the kitchen so they could use it in the summer !
>
That's a bit of a sweeping generalisation. The manufacturer's spec.
for heat emission is no more than 1kW. In practice, the burner
modulates down and it's typically around 700W.
If you have a very tiny kitchen an you hermetically seal it, then I
suppose you may get too warm in the summer, but in a reasonably sized
kitchen with some ventilation, even in a modern house, we don't have
any problems at all.
In fact the situation is better when doing a lot of cooking with an
Aga vis-a-vis a hob and oven or conventional range. With the Aga
method, much of the cooking takes place in the ovens and the top
plates are used only for short periods. Therefore the heat released
into the room is still only around 1kW. If you add up the power of
the burners and ovens (which are poorly insulated) on a conventional
arrangement, many kW are released when they are in use and the cook
gets a much hotter experience.
Generally I've found that people who have difficulties with heat with
Aga ranges have not learned the proper cooking methods and try to
proceed as before. If you open up the lids on the top you have
enough space for 3-4 pans on each of them, so of course a lot of heat
is then released.
the other point to note is that you can't really compare an Aga with a
Rayburn (or one of the look-alikes) anyway. With an Aga you can
optionally have a jacket around the firebox to heat domestic hot
water. It is not designed to provide heat for radiators.
Andy Hall
Email by removing the word after the two letter,
top level Nordic country domain.
Andy Hall
>DC,
>
>Thanks for the reply.
>
>It seems to be a standard comment people make about the temperature in
>the kitchen in the summer months with an Aga/Rayburn.
Usually by people who have never had one and repeat hearsay, or who
have too small a kitchen that they hermetically seal, or most commonly
if they use convention cooking methods rather than the Aga-Rayburn
recommended ones.
>
>It would appear that the Alpha has independent control of the oven/hot
>water/central heating so in theory you don't have to have it 'on' all
>year round but I dare say you still have to wait a good 15 mins for
>the oven to heat up if not.
>
>If anyone reading this has knowledge of the Alpha range it would be
>useful to hear about it.
I took a very thorough look at Alpha, Stanley and a few look-alikes.
The Alpha, especially, is really only a look-alike and although it
contains cast iron components, it is not well insulated like
Aga-Rayburn's products. In effect it operates much more like a
conventional cooker up to a point.
The problem is that in trying to address concerns that people
mistakenly have about Aga/Rayburn, Alpha has put in "controllability".
In effect, you turn it off when you've finished. Unfortunately, it
takes 30 minutes for the ovens to come up to temperature and 15 mins
for the hot plates..
With the Aga/Rayburn, the ovens and the plates are at operating
temperature all the time. this means that you can have all of the
functional benefits and the ability to use the proper Aga cooking
methods and the superb results.. This isn't going to work if you
don't have stable temperatures for some time.
So the conclusion that we came to is that Alpha have tried to address
a market but have fallen between two stools.
If you think that too much heat in the summer is something that will
be a problem, do remember that the cooking method is completely
different and you don't need to stand over the range on a hands on
basis like you do with a conventional cooker. The whole working
environment is much more forgiving - i.e. it's much much harder to
burn things or dry them out.
Another option that Aga-Rayburn make is a conventional cooker module
that will sit alongside the main unit. This provides even more
flecibility.
>
>Thanks.
Andy Hall
>In article <p6e91v8ujjldl388s...@4ax.com>, Andy Hall <an...@hall.gl.stopjunkmail> writes:
>>On 2 Jan 2003 11:37:27 -0800, r_bu...@yahoo.co.uk (Richard) wrote:
>>
>>>DC,
>>>
>>>Thanks for the reply.
>>>
>>>It seems to be a standard comment people make about the temperature in
>>>the kitchen in the summer months with an Aga/Rayburn.
>>
>>Usually by people who have never had one and repeat hearsay, or who
>>have too small a kitchen that they hermetically seal, or most commonly
>>if they use convention cooking methods rather than the Aga-Rayburn
>>recommended ones.
>
>Nope, nope & nope, respectively.
>
>And still we boiled.
Wel there's your problem right there, you're meant to use the ovens if
possible ;-)
jacob
nothing they can do which is not done better and much much cheaper by
conventional cooker and central heating.
Most people with Agas also have an electric kettle, a toaster, a gas
hob, a microwave etc etc in other words they could manage perfectly
well without the extremely expensive Aga.
Allright so they keep the kitchen warm in winter, so will a cheap
electric cooker if you leave it on low all night.
They are an improvement on the open fired solid fuel range however,
but less cost effective.
cheers
Jacob
David C
> method, much of the cooking takes place in the ovens and the top
> plates are used only for short periods. Therefore the heat released
> into the room is still only around 1kW. If you add up the power of
Given that the complete house (large 5 bed) will be heated with an
18Kw boiler and that's calculated to raise temp to 20c from -20c then
1Kw is significant ! But where did that figure come from ? If the
hot plate is hot all the time then that is a serious heat emitter. I
can't believe those pretty lids can insulate it that well !
The issue of an Aga overheating a modern kitchen isn't hearsay but
documented fact, ask anyone who installs domestic AirCon, after south
facing conservatories it's the number 1 reason.
Your point about the warm-up time for other range cookers is valid.
Also, initially we thought of a range cooker providing HW and CH but
on most this is at an extra cost of a couple of thousand. For half
that we can buy a good quality oil fired modulating boiler and just
use the range cooker for cooking - that is the current plan.
A range cooker is a serious commitment and not just financially, the
kitchen often has to be built around it so it's very important to
research and get the facts.
DC
Howard Neil
> have too small a kitchen that they hermetically seal, or most commonly
> if they use convention cooking methods rather than the Aga-Rayburn
> recommended ones.
>
> temperature all the time. this means that you can have all of the
> functional benefits and the ability to use the proper Aga cooking
> methods and the superb results.. This isn't going to work if you
> don't have stable temperatures for some time.
I agree with Andy's comments but would like to add that Rayburn now make
models with pressure burners for oil or gas. This eliminates the constant
emission of heat, is cheaper to run, and it heats up the ovens/water/central
heating much quicker.
I have just replaced an old coal burning Rayburn with an oil burning Rayburn
with these pressure burners. Because we prefer the background warmth, I
added a new radiator in the kitchen. The only downside (that I can see) to
these burners is the noise they make.
Howard Neil
Andy Hall
wrote:
>Rayburn/Aga etc are completely crazy and utterly pointless. There is
>nothing they can do which is not done better and much much cheaper by
>conventional cooker and central heating.
Not really true and you've missed the point. I'm not going to bother
to cover all of the benefits which are described very well on
www.aga-rayburn.co.uk
>Most people with Agas also have an electric kettle, a toaster, a gas
>hob, a microwave etc etc in other words they could manage perfectly
>well without the extremely expensive Aga.
The electric kettle lives in the loft and comes out on one day a year
- the servicing day, I have no toaster - nothing quite comes up to
Aga toast standards - and can live without toast on one day a year.
I certainly don't have a gas hob - haven't needed one.
I do have a microwave, but it gets relatively little use and I am not
sure that it will be replaced when it finally breaks.
People can live with a Primus stove in the back garden but choose not
to do so. I would agree with you that Aga's products are expensive,
but I wouldn't say extremely expensive.
>Allright so they keep the kitchen warm in winter, so will a cheap
>electric cooker if you leave it on low all night.
>They are an improvement on the open fired solid fuel range however,
>but less cost effective.
In fact our total energy consumption, and cost has decreased since the
Aga was installed and the food's great.
>
>cheers
>
>Jacob
Andy Hall
avon...@totalise.co.uk.Removethisbittoreply (David C) wrote:
>> Aga vis-a-vis a hob and oven or conventional range. With the Aga
>> method, much of the cooking takes place in the ovens and the top
>> plates are used only for short periods. Therefore the heat released
>> into the room is still only around 1kW. If you add up the power of
>
>Given that the complete house (large 5 bed) will be heated with an
>18Kw boiler and that's calculated to raise temp to 20c from -20c then
>1Kw is significant ! But where did that figure come from ? If the
>hot plate is hot all the time then that is a serious heat emitter. I
>can't believe those pretty lids can insulate it that well !
If you're calculating building heat losses for the UK, the convention
is to use -3 or even -1 degrees - you don't really need to go for -20.
Aga Rayburn's spec. for the Aga is 1kW of emission, but comes at low
level from the entire surface. In practice, I've found and measured
it to be about 700W. The Rayburn is about the same according to the
manufacturer's data.
The lids are pretty effective insulators - surface temperature about
40 degrees or so and the burner modulates according to heat demand.
>
>The issue of an Aga overheating a modern kitchen isn't hearsay but
>documented fact, ask anyone who installs domestic AirCon, after south
>facing conservatories it's the number 1 reason.
In the case of the kitchen, that only happens if it's too small or
inadequately ventilated.
>
>Your point about the warm-up time for other range cookers is valid.
>Also, initially we thought of a range cooker providing HW and CH but
>on most this is at an extra cost of a couple of thousand. For half
>that we can buy a good quality oil fired modulating boiler and just
>use the range cooker for cooking - that is the current plan.
I don't think I would choose a Rayburn and use it to provide CH nnd
DHW unless I was restricted on fuel choice - I have a condensing gas
boiler to do that.
If I had to use oil I think I would go for an oil fired boiler and an
oil fired Aga rather than a Rayburn because of the convenience of
having the Aga ready to go the whole time.
>
>A range cooker is a serious commitment and not just financially, the
>kitchen often has to be built around it so it's very important to
>research and get the facts.
Absolutely. We agonised long and hard over the various issues,
including cooking style, was the kitchen going to get too hot?, what
about energy consumption? There wasn't a restriction to using oil
which meant that those factors did not need to be considered.
The important thing for me is would I make the same decision again
under the same circumstances; and the answer is yes, without a doubt.
Will Dean
news:beoa1vkgbm1sbigs0...@4ax.com...
>
> Aga Rayburn's spec. for the Aga is 1kW of emission, but comes at low
> level from the entire surface. In practice, I've found and measured
> it to be about 700W.
JOOI, how did you measure it? Is that just based on fuel consumption?
Will
Nick Finnigan
"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.gl.stopjunkmail> wrote in message
news:beoa1vkgbm1sbigs0...@4ax.com...
> avon...@totalise.co.uk.Removethisbittoreply (David C) wrote:
>
> >
> >Given that the complete house (large 5 bed) will be heated with an
> >18Kw boiler and that's calculated to raise temp to 20c from -20c then
> >1Kw is significant ! But where did that figure come from ?
>
> is to use -3 or even -1 degrees - you don't really need to go for -20.
>
> Aga Rayburn's spec. for the Aga is 1kW of emission, but comes at low
> level from the entire surface. In practice, I've found and measured
> it to be about 700W. The Rayburn is about the same according to the
> manufacturer's data.
That adds up to about 6,000 kWh over a year, which
is a fair proportion of the total heating for many houses.
Hw did you measure the output heat, and do you know
whether the input heat/cost matches the claim on the website?
S Viemeister
>
> If I had to use oil I think I would go for an oil fired boiler and an
> oil fired Aga rather than a Rayburn because of the convenience of
> having the Aga ready to go the whole time.
>
gas). The Rayburn, like your Aga is always 'ready to go'.
jacob
stove but you don't HAVE to, you can also use the hob and fry eggs etc
- often impossible with an Aga/Rayburn especially if solid fuel.
Anybody cooking seriously can't risk an Aga/Rayburn as once the heat
falls it may take hours to get back up - or days if it is solid fuel.
I just don't see the point - except that they look expensive, another
form of conspicuous consumption - me not impressed as I crouch over my
primus.
Actually I have a second hand New world gas cooker - £50, which out
performs an Aga in every respect as far as cooking is concerned.
Of course you can keep one up to cooking-heat all year round but that
means having it on - burning fuel, all year round - madness.
You can switch an ordinary cooker on and off as and when you need it
and it takes seconds to reach working temp, or minutes for an oven,
compared to hours for an Aga etc.
I notice that newer Agas have hobs attached to make up for their
deficiencies - you might as well just buy an ordinary cooker.
I used to have a solid fuel Rayburn and it was a complete pain in the
B, but marginally better than an open fire in the middle of the floor.
cheers
Jacob
cheers
Jacob
Andy Hall
wrote:
>
>"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.gl.stopjunkmail> wrote in message
>news:beoa1vkgbm1sbigs0...@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 03 Jan 2003 09:55:09 GMT,
>> avon...@totalise.co.uk.Removethisbittoreply (David C) wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >Given that the complete house (large 5 bed) will be heated with an
>> >18Kw boiler and that's calculated to raise temp to 20c from -20c then
>> >1Kw is significant ! But where did that figure come from ?
>>
>> If you're calculating building heat losses for the UK, the convention
>> is to use -3 or even -1 degrees - you don't really need to go for -20.
>>
>> Aga Rayburn's spec. for the Aga is 1kW of emission, but comes at low
>> level from the entire surface. In practice, I've found and measured
>> it to be about 700W. The Rayburn is about the same according to the
>> manufacturer's data.
>
> That adds up to about 6,000 kWh over a year, which
>is a fair proportion of the total heating for many houses.
Depends on the size and type of the house, Also, for 9 months or so
of the year this is beneficial heat - i.e. it can be legitimately
accounted for as part of the contribution to heating the house.
One could argue that it is not doing so at the same level of
efficiency as the condensing central heating boiler, but accounting
for the totals that I use at least, it's not significant..
>
> Hw did you measure the output heat, and do you know
>whether the input heat/cost matches the claim on the website?
>
I measured the input heat by measuring the gas rate in steady state on
several different days - i.e. after several hours of non-use and
calculating from there.
I got figures ranging from 820 to 860W.
Allowing for some inefficiencies of energy going out through the flue
suggests in the 700W or so range into the room.
So the manufacturer's claim of about 3000 BTUs (880W) emission is
about right.
Aga-Rayburn's running cost estimates for the Aga (we have the 4 oven
natural gas version) is conservative as well. They mention a figure
of 527kWh per week. If you do the sums simply dividing by 7 days and
24 hours you get just over 3kW which equates to approx. half of the
max. input level of 5.8kW.
At the idle rate of 880W the weekly consumption would be about 150kWh
assuming you didn't use it.
I checked the gas consumption at the meter for a 2 week period when
there was no boiler in use and the Aga was the only appliance, and got
250-300 kWh per week.
Andy Hall
Yep. See my reply to Nick.
Andy Hall
I thought it was intermittent use for the cooking part with the
Rayburn, but checking the web site it depends on model - presumably
Cookmaster vs. Heatranger?
Gordon Henderson
jacob <ja...@jpbutler.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Yebbut - you can slow cook in an oven on any ordinary gas/electric
>stove but you don't HAVE to, you can also use the hob and fry eggs etc
>- often impossible with an Aga/Rayburn especially if solid fuel.
Bolocks.
I used a coal fired Rayburn for 6 months and I could fry/grill, make
toast, etc. on top without any problems whatsoever.
And why do you need to slow cook? They'll also do yorkshire puds if
you want them too. The ovens generally get hot enough to carbonise any
food splashes! (So no cleaning more than a brush out every now and then ;-)
>Anybody cooking seriously can't risk an Aga/Rayburn as once the heat
>falls it may take hours to get back up - or days if it is solid fuel.
I cook seriously. Both myself and partner enjoy cooking and we're
good at it.
I could get my Rayburn from cold to cooking temperature in just over an
hour. The hotplate was usable after about 15 minutes. True, this isn't
the convenience of a modern cooker and it was a real PITA when we came
in late, but in general I think you don't have a clue what you are on
about. Agas yes, do take a good overnight run to get up to temperature,
but they store heat in a different manner to Rayburns, Stanleys, etc. and
if used properly there should never be any problems about them running
out of heat.
>I just don't see the point - except that they look expensive, another
>form of conspicuous consumption - me not impressed as I crouch over my
>primus.
No, they don't just look expensive, they *are* expansive! But so what
is thats the way we want to run our lives? What do you care?
>Actually I have a second hand New world gas cooker - £50, which out
>performs an Aga in every respect as far as cooking is concerned.
>Of course you can keep one up to cooking-heat all year round but that
>means having it on - burning fuel, all year round - madness.
Try doing some measurements sometime. My gas fired Stanley costs less to
run than the coal fired Rayburn. An Aga probably costs even less to run
than that by virtue of it being better insulated than anything else. I
don't have a gas hob or electric kettle btw. The Stanley is the only
thing I have to cook on. If it breaks down or is offline for a service,
I have my old coalman peak one...
>You can switch an ordinary cooker on and off as and when you need it
>and it takes seconds to reach working temp, or minutes for an oven,
>compared to hours for an Aga etc.
The Stanley I have now is up to full temperature in under 20 minutes,
the hot plate is always hot (or hot within 5 minutes from cold) or I can
run it hot all the time if I wanted to - I haven't worked out which is
the best mode to run it in yet, but I will.
>I notice that newer Agas have hobs attached to make up for their
>deficiencies - you might as well just buy an ordinary cooker.
>I used to have a solid fuel Rayburn and it was a complete pain in the
>B, but marginally better than an open fire in the middle of the floor.
You obviously never learned to cook with it properly. There is a knack and
you do need a good set of flat bottomed pots, and the knowledge that you
do nearly everything in the oven (not strictly true with the Rayburn
or Stanley, but it helps) but I lived very well for 6 months on the
coal-fired Rayburn (Which again, was all I had to cook on when I first
moved into this house). Only got rid of it because it was 55 years old
and in a very bad state of repair.
Gordon
Andy Hall
wrote:
>Yebbut - you can slow cook in an oven on any ordinary gas/electric
>stove but you don't HAVE to,
You obviously haven't studied the operation or spec. of an Aga or used
one.
There are two or four ovens on an Aga and in the hottest - the
roasting oven, at the top the temperature is higher than is achieved
in virtually any conventional cooker. The heat is largely radiant
which has a totally different and improved effect vs. the convection
of a conventional oven. Each oven has a temperature gradient within
it and then on to the next and all are remarkably stable - I've
checked with a thermocouple. The 4th oven of the 4 oven model can be
used for keeping food warm for hours without it spoiling or drying out
and of course for warming plates.
You thus have the choice of cooking as rapidly or as slowly as you
like. One benefit of the non-drying nature of the radiant heat of
the ovens is that timing is much less time critical.
> you can also use the hob and fry eggs etc
>- often impossible with an Aga/Rayburn especially if solid fuel.
You can fry eggs or anything else on the hob or in the roasting oven
with no problem at all. It often makes more sense to do so in the
roasting oven because splashes of fat hit the walls of the oven and
carbonise so there's no cleaning to do.
>Anybody cooking seriously can't risk an Aga/Rayburn as once the heat
>falls it may take hours to get back up - or days if it is solid fuel.
This is complete and utter nonsense.
A thermometer is provided so that one can see the current core
temperature of the cooker. The gas models have a modulating burner
which ticks over at under 1kW and will wind up to nearly 6kW when
required. Unless you cook for a very long time on the hob, the
thermometer doesn't even move off of the set point. Even if it does,
there is little or no effect on cooking times and recovery is
typically 20 mins or so.
>I just don't see the point - except that they look expensive, another
>form of conspicuous consumption - me not impressed as I crouch over my
>primus.
I don't suppose you do. It's a bit like sex really. Before you've
experienced it you don't know what all the fuss is about, and when you
have, you wouldn't want to be without it.
>Actually I have a second hand New world gas cooker - £50, which out
>performs an Aga in every respect as far as cooking is concerned.
Like the 4 litre/min electric shower?
>Of course you can keep one up to cooking-heat all year round but that
>means having it on - burning fuel, all year round - madness.
It would be, because the thing is only minimally insulated.
>You can switch an ordinary cooker on and off as and when you need it
>and it takes seconds to reach working temp, or minutes for an oven,
>compared to hours for an Aga etc.
Not important because the Aga only goes off once a year for servicing.
>I notice that newer Agas have hobs attached to make up for their
>deficiencies - you might as well just buy an ordinary cooker.
THe Module is mainly added to 2 oven Agas to supplement the capacity.
The Companion is supplied where people need the capacity of a 4 oven
Aga but don't have the space in one area of their kitchen design.
>I used to have a solid fuel Rayburn and it was a complete pain in the
>B, but marginally better than an open fire in the middle of the floor.
I should stick with the Primus
Andy Hall
wrote:
>Andy Hall <an...@hall.gl.stopjunkmail> wrote:
>
>> You thus have the choice of cooking as rapidly or as slowly as you
>> like.
>
>But despite all this Agas are still crap and more about style than
>substance.
You're entitled to your opinion, even if it is the wrong one, based on
ignorance.....
Andy Hall
wrote:
>Andy Hall <an...@hall.gl.stopjunkmail> wrote:
>
>> You're entitled to your opinion, even if it is the wrong one, based on
>> ignorance.....
>
>Had one, it was crap, sold it some fool.
Then you obviously didn't take the trouble to learn how to use it
properly.
>
>It did nothing that couldn't be done both better and cheaper in an
>electric oven.
Then you certainly weren't using it properly. Electric ovens are
blowing hot air over everything and drying it out, with the result
that cooking timings are much more critical. Electricity is four
times the cost of gas and built in ovens are not well insulated
because there is the necessity to maximise capacity in a 600mm
footprint.
>The hotplates are beyond a joke.
Perfectly fine provided that you use the appropriate utensils. Since
the majority of cooking is or should be done in the ovens the plates
are plenty adequate and much easier to use to prepare sauces etc.
>The ovens are all too
>small and you can't get a goose into the largest of them.
The capacity is enormous with 4 ovens and there's a wide range of
available temperatures. All are basically the same size.
I don't what you were trying to do with a goose.
I've cooked a 14lb one quite happily in the Aga, although generally
the recommendation in most recipes is to use two smaller birds because
they are more tender and better flavoured.
> No rotisserie
>either.
No need for one, and no cleaning the oven after using it either. A
very messy attachment.
>
>Oh look, what this on my oven? A switch to turn it off, now it's not
>costing me a penny to run. How remarkable. Do you think Agas will ever
>catch up?
I really hope not.
Nick Finnigan
> On Fri, 3 Jan 2003 11:05:18 -0000, "Nick Finnigan" <n...@genie.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
> > Hw did you measure the output heat, and do you know
> >whether the input heat/cost matches the claim on the website?
> >
> I measured the input heat by measuring the gas rate in steady state on
> several different days - i.e. after several hours of non-use and
> calculating from there.
> I got figures ranging from 820 to 860W.
> Aga-Rayburn's running cost estimates for the Aga (we have the 4 oven
> natural gas version) is conservative as well. They mention a figure
> of 527kWh per week. If you do the sums simply dividing by 7 days and
> 24 hours you get just over 3kW which equates to approx. half of the
I did just that, a while ago, and was appalled.
> max. input level of 5.8kW.
> At the idle rate of 880W the weekly consumption would be about 150kWh
> assuming you didn't use it.
>
> I checked the gas consumption at the meter for a 2 week period when
> there was no boiler in use and the Aga was the only appliance, and got
> 250-300 kWh per week.
Which is more than I use for hob, central heating, and water heating
in a 4 bedroom semi during the warmer six months of the year.
jacob
> >gas). The Rayburn, like your Aga is always 'ready to go'.
Calor gas, electricity, a paraffin primus stove and even an open fire
are all even readier to go - and from a cold start, and adjustable,
and much cheaper to buy and run too!
It is interesting however, the vast "emperor's new clothes" self
deception that goes on with Aga/rayburns. The same sort of illusion as
4 wheel drive - virtually never needed by anyone except the occasional
farmer.
OK modern ranges are more economical by virtue of better insulation -
so a conventional on/off cooker with insulation would be an even
better bet.
The point about range cookers is that they were developed as an
improvement on the open coal fired range - which they were.
They were then superceded 60 or more years ago by the first electric
and gas cookers which had the glaringly obvious advantages of instant
availability, adjustability of heat, and being switch-offable. Many
early models had 2 burners and also a cast iron hot plate as a memento
of the range but this was soon abandoned in favour of the 4 burner
standard.
Range cookers only persist because they evoke an aga-saga, country
living, farmhousy ambience - a bit like keeping a horse and trap
instead of a car - interesting, enjoyable and picturesque, but
expensive and impractical.
cheers
Jacob
Gordon Henderson
Steve Firth <%steve%@malloc.co.uk> wrote:
>Andy Hall <an...@hall.gl.stopjunkmail> wrote:
>
>> >Had one, it was crap, sold it some fool.
>>
>> Then you obviously didn't take the trouble to learn how to use it
>> properly.
>
>
>It's not just my opinion, the Aga has been roundly condemned by
>professional chefs as just a fad.
Rick Stein seemd perfectly happy with his on his recent set of programmes...
>> >The hotplates are beyond a joke.
>>
>> Perfectly fine provided that you use the appropriate utensils. Since
>> the majority of cooking is or should be done in the ovens the plates
>> are plenty adequate and much easier to use to prepare sauces etc.
>
>And cannot be used for a wok, or to be honest for a fish kettle either.
>It's good to see you admit that the hotplates are so poor that one has
>to rely upon whatever can be baked in an oven instead.
It's true you can't use a traditional round-bottomed wok, but you have a
hard-time using one of them on most electric cookers anyway. Aga make a
flat bottomed wok for their units and we ended up getting one to use on
our Stanley. Works a treat. In-fact, when we were fitting our kitchen
out, we were going to install a separate wok burner and hood, but since
the Aga wok was a fraction of the cost of that we simplified the kitchen,
bought the wok and haven't looked back.
With a fish kettle, you can bring it up to heat on a hotplate and stick
it in the oven. End of story.
The whole point of the Aga and range cookers is that they store heat up
ready to be deployed in the ovens at any time. It's designed to be cooked
in the oven, using the hoptplates to quickly bring things up to cooking
temperature so that you can then put them in the oven. You really do
boil potatoes in the oven! No smells, or condensation as it all goes up
the flue and splashes, etc. just carbonise off the sides.
The hotplates aren't poor either - they'll boil a kettle of water faster
than any electric kettle will, but while you use the hoptplates, the
stored heat is escaping - this is why you cook in the oven, where the
heat is stored and can be kept stored in an efficient manner.
>> >The ovens are all too
>> >small and you can't get a goose into the largest of them.
>>
>> The capacity is enormous with 4 ovens
>
>Each of which is too small.
Offhand I don't know the size of the Agas ovens, but the ones on my
Stanley are bigger than anything else I've had in the past. It would
swallow a 14lb bird and still have room for more, then there's the
2nd oven..
>Good, continue cooking on the range much you may you enjoy it. Just
>don't ever fool yourself that the energy wasting Aga is anything other
>than a yuppie toy.
Agas have been about since 1922. Hardly a yuppie toy then. It was
invented by a nobel prize winning scientist. See
http://www.agasales.com/history.html
People have been using range cookers since the year dot. The Rayburn
in particular was a boon to the housewife of the 40's and 50's. Then,
although gas was common, it was only common in tows and cities. Live
outside a town of city and you had no gas - just coal and wood. Even
today, people still live in rural areas without mains gas and rely on
oil for heating and cooking. Our local seller of range cookers does seem
to have a good trade as his showroom is always changing with different
models and so on. (Rayburn, Aga and Stanley) There's a huge market for 2nd
hand units too. And I don't live in a yuppie town, I live on the edge of
Dartmoor - hardly a major urban sprawl! I have 2 range cooker companies
inside 5 miles of where I live, and there's another about 20 miles away,
then there's an Aga shop in Exeter and Mole Valley Farmers just outside
Plymouth (where you can get anything from a bar of chocolate to a tractor
to stuff to inject into your sheep, as well as cookers!) Devon isn't
a particularly affluent area, but it seems to be able to support more
than one range cooker shop, which hardly makes them toys.
>As a matter of interest what make is the other cooker that you use? All
>Aga owners have one so they can cook properly from time to time.
I don't know about Andy, but I don't have another cooker. I don't have
an electric kettle either. We do have a microwave and electric toaster,
but thats something we've had for many years, before we bought this house
together and started using the Rayburn and now Stanley. Even though the
Rayburn was some 55 years old and coal fired, it was considered a major
selling point for the house!
I don't have a sandwich toaster either - they can be done directly on
the hotplate, as can popadoms and I love a good curry!
Actually, I lie. I have a camping stove and a BBQ. I used the camping
stove in the few weeks we had between replacing the Rayburn with the
Stanley.
I don't understand why some people are so anti range cookers. I can
understand if you've tried one and not gotten on with it, but does take
a certain amount of knowledge to learn how to use one effectively and
efficiently. The technique is different from a conventional cooker and
oven. I don't mind what people cook on - I won't get het up about it. I
know what I now like to cook on, and how to use it, and if you want to
cook on something else then thats fine by me!
Gordon
Gordon Henderson
>gor...@rot13.qebtba.arg (Gordon Henderson) writes:
>
>[103 lines snipped]
>
>>I don't understand why some people are so anti range cookers.
>
>as the kitchen.
This summer, when we were running our old coal fired Rayburn, it did get
a bit hot in the kitchen. However, that Rayburn did not have any lids
on the hotplate! (Very old model) It wasn't unbarable by any stretch of
the imagination. The new Stanley gives off just enough heat to keep
the kitchen comfortable now. If the kitchen is too hot, improve the
ventilation! As for sauna qualities, cook in the oven - all the damp
heat goes up the flue then :-)
Gordon
Andy Hall
wrote:
>Andy Hall <an...@hall.gl.stopjunkmail> wrote:
>
>> >Had one, it was crap, sold it some fool.
>>
>> Then you obviously didn't take the trouble to learn how to use it
>> properly.
>
>Ah yes the other Aga fanatics excuse. You're wrong.
Not really - just suggesting that you might want to read the
instructions.
>
>It's not just my opinion, the Aga has been roundly condemned by
>professional chefs as just a fad.
.. and praised by other professional chefs.
>
>> >It did nothing that couldn't be done both better and cheaper in an
>> >electric oven.
>>
>> Then you certainly weren't using it properly. Electric ovens are
>> blowing hot air over everything and drying it out, with the result
>> that cooking timings are much more critical.
>
>The fan can be turned on, and off.
It could in the last electric oven that we had (now in a skip), but
the drying effect was still considerable.
>
>> Electricity is four
>> times the cost of gas and built in ovens are not well insulated
>> because there is the necessity to maximise capacity in a 600mm
>> footprint.
>
>And the oven is turned off when not in use,
It would need to be since the insulation is thin.
>and doesn't take a lifetime
>to reach operating temperature.
The Aga takes about three hours to come to operating temperature once
a year. In terms of total waiting time taken over the year, I am sure
a lot less than an electric oven.
>Your dimensions appear to be out, the
>oven I use is 900mm wide, nor is it "built in".
Well I'm not telepathic - I was simply looking at the typical built in
appliance.
>
>> >The hotplates are beyond a joke.
>>
>> Perfectly fine provided that you use the appropriate utensils. Since
>> the majority of cooking is or should be done in the ovens the plates
>> are plenty adequate and much easier to use to prepare sauces etc.
>
>And cannot be used for a wok, or to be honest for a fish kettle either.
You should have read the instructions. A flat bottomed wok works
absolutely fine on the boiling plate. A fish kettle can be brought
to temperature on a hot plate and then transferred to the appropriate
oven - very simple and obvious.
>It's good to see you admit that the hotplates are so poor that one has
>to rely upon whatever can be baked in an oven instead.
I didn't say that the hotplates were poor at all - they can take a
large number of pans and like the ovens it's much harder to wreck
something than with a gas blowtorch hob.
The ovens can be and are used for virtually any cooking operation -
boiling, frying, roasting, baking, poaching,.......
>
>> >The ovens are all too
>> >small and you can't get a goose into the largest of them.
>>
>> The capacity is enormous with 4 ovens
>
>Each of which is too small.
>
Nonsense. You can get an over 25lb turkey in one and still have room
to spare and three more ovens at different temperatures to use.
>> and there's a wide range of
>> available temperatures. All are basically the same size.
>> I don't what you were trying to do with a goose.
>> I've cooked a 14lb one quite happily in the Aga, although generally
>> the recommendation in most recipes is to use two smaller birds because
>> they are more tender and better flavoured.
>
>And because that's all you can do with the small oven capacity.
As I said, that's demonstrably untrue.
>>
>> > No rotisserie
>> >either.
>>
>> No need for one, and no cleaning the oven after using it either. A
>> very messy attachment.
>
>Ah if it's not there, you don't need it.
>
The electric oven that we had was fitted with one. The results didn't
justify the clean up job required from the fat splashes. The Aga's
roasting and simmering ovens are second to none in production of
excellent roasted meats.
>> >
>> >Oh look, what this on my oven? A switch to turn it off, now it's not
>> >costing me a penny to run. How remarkable. Do you think Agas will ever
>> >catch up?
>>
>>
>> I really hope not.
>
>Good, continue cooking on the range much you may you enjoy it. Just
>don't ever fool yourself that the energy wasting Aga is anything other
>than a yuppie toy.
>
I certainly enjoy cooking with it as do the rest of the family.
Overall there is an easy to understand energy saving compared with
electric cooking.
I don't go in for yuppie toys, and in any case it would be a little
difficult to describe something invented in Sweden in the early years
of the 20th century as having anything to do with yuppies. They came
a lot later, IIRC.
>As a matter of interest what make is the other cooker that you use? All
>Aga owners have one so they can cook properly from time to time.
Do they really? Another sweeping generalisation. You haven't been
taking IMM lessons have you? The only other cooking appliance, as I
already mentioned is a microwave which will probably not be replaced
when it finally dies.
Andy Hall
>gor...@rot13.qebtba.arg (Gordon Henderson) writes:
>
>[103 lines snipped]
>
>>I don't understand why some people are so anti range cookers.
>
>If I want a sauna, I'll install one. And it wont be the same room
>as the kitchen.
Sauna you than me.... :-)
Andy Hall
wrote:
>"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.gl.stopjunkmail> wrote in message
>news:mtmb1vkh0f9go6u5q...@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 3 Jan 2003 11:05:18 -0000, "Nick Finnigan" <n...@genie.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Hw did you measure the output heat, and do you know
>> >whether the input heat/cost matches the claim on the website?
>> >
>> I measured the input heat by measuring the gas rate in steady state on
>> several different days - i.e. after several hours of non-use and
>> calculating from there.
>> I got figures ranging from 820 to 860W.
>
>> Aga-Rayburn's running cost estimates for the Aga (we have the 4 oven
>> natural gas version) is conservative as well. They mention a figure
>> of 527kWh per week. If you do the sums simply dividing by 7 days and
>> 24 hours you get just over 3kW which equates to approx. half of the
>
> I did just that, a while ago, and was appalled.
I don't see why, it's next to nothing.
>
>> max. input level of 5.8kW.
>> At the idle rate of 880W the weekly consumption would be about 150kWh
>> assuming you didn't use it.
>>
>> I checked the gas consumption at the meter for a 2 week period when
>> there was no boiler in use and the Aga was the only appliance, and got
>> 250-300 kWh per week.
>
> Which is more than I use for hob, central heating, and water heating
>in a 4 bedroom semi during the warmer six months of the year.
>
Possibly. But what are you using during the colder 6 months?
I can treat my Aga consumption as part of the winter heating costs,
although not a large part.
To obtain a meaningful overview, you need to look at a whole year or
preferably multiple years.
Andy Hall
wrote:
>> >I have an oil-fired Rayburn (we're 75-100 miles from the nearest mains
>> >gas). The Rayburn, like your Aga is always 'ready to go'.
>
>Calor gas, electricity, a paraffin primus stove and even an open fire
>are all even readier to go - and from a cold start, and adjustable,
>and much cheaper to buy and run too!
Cheaper to buy, possibly - sort of like a moped vs. a car.
Cheaper to run? Not necessarily - you are not comparing apples with
apples.
>It is interesting however, the vast "emperor's new clothes" self
>deception that goes on with Aga/rayburns.
What a curious suggestion. I'm just happy with the excellent
results.
>OK modern ranges are more economical by virtue of better insulation -
>so a conventional on/off cooker with insulation would be an even
>better bet.
This misses the point completely - the two are completely different in
the way that they are intended to work.
>The point about range cookers is that they were developed as an
>improvement on the open coal fired range - which they were.
>They were then superceded 60 or more years ago by the first electric
>and gas cookers which had the glaringly obvious advantages of instant
>availability, adjustability of heat, and being switch-offable.
>Many
>early models had 2 burners and also a cast iron hot plate as a memento
>of the range but this was soon abandoned in favour of the 4 burner
>standard.
>Range cookers only persist because they evoke an aga-saga, country
>living, farmhousy ambience - a bit like keeping a horse and trap
>instead of a car - interesting, enjoyable and picturesque, but
>expensive and impractical.
You've been reading too many tabloid press Sunday supplements.
Nobody who has contributed in favour of stored heat cookers has
mentioned the aesthetics or other side functionality that is provided
because compared with the practicality, ease of use and excellent
results, they are not that important. Nice to have, nonetheless.
Capitol
Regards
Capitol
Andy Hall wrote in message ...
Andy Hall
<cap*itol@duddridge*gb.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>How do I get an eye level oven & grill then?
>
>Regards
>
>Capitol
>
Easy. Sit on the floor.
Grimly Curmudgeon
<cap*itol@duddridge*gb.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>How do I get an eye level oven & grill then?
Bend down.
or...
Put it up on blocks.
--
Dave
Richard
Seems that these Aga/Rayburns are more like marmite - you either love
them or you hate them!
As to whether we should install one in our new kitchen that I'm
'designing' at the moment is undecided but I have to say I am 60% yes
and 40% no.
One question I have (if anyone can answer it) is how hot do the lower
oven doors get to the touch? I ask because I have a 7 month old
daughter who will soon be walking around. Someone told me that whilst
they are very warm they're not hot enough to cause any damage (unlike
when I put my hands on a boiler when I was 3 and the skin between my
fingers melted and look liked webbed feet, dressed every day for
several weeks although you'd not know it from the look of them now).
Is this correct?
I also hear that Aga/Rayburns are great for drying overnight
sleepsuits and bibs - is this true? ;)
Next someone will be telling me that there are cheaper ways of drying
babies clothes than an Aga/Rayburn (maybe a tumble drier? what will
they think of next....)
Going back to the Alpha, according to their website their USPs (Unique
Selling Points) are that the ovens are larger than the Aga/Rayburn,
the hotplate is larger than the Aga/Rayburn (maybe more wasted
energy?!) and the cooker, hotwater and CH are each independently
controllable. Has no one reading this got an Alpha (or installed one
on behalf of a customer) that could comment on the quality and
features of it?
Long may the debate continue until I need to make a decision in a few
weeks time....
Richard.
Andy Hall <an...@hall.gl.stopjunkmail> wrote in message news:<63le1v86njru403uv...@4ax.com>...
Andy Hall
wrote:
>
>> A flat bottomed wok works
>> absolutely fine on the boiling plate.
>
>
>Umm no, a Wok burner produces about 6kW and it needs to. The thing that
>does onto the Aga hotplate is a Wok in name only and all you can do with
>it is to feebly sizzle food at far too low a temperature.
You have one and have used it.? The boiling plate is extremely hot
since it's directly over the burner and the Aga wok works very well
with it.
>
>> A fish kettle can be brought to temperature on a hot plate and then
>> transferred to the appropriate oven - very simple and obvious.
>
>And also useless, none of those ovens take a proper fish kettle.
That's odd because my proper fish kettle fits in any of them.
>You're
>confirming my observations. People who like Agas can't cook.
Another sweeping and silly generalisation with no basis in fact.
Andy Hall
>Gentlemen,
>
>Seems that these Aga/Rayburns are more like marmite - you either love
>them or you hate them!
I think that that's probably true. FWIW, Agas make the best toast
I've ever had for the soldiers :-)
>
>As to whether we should install one in our new kitchen that I'm
>'designing' at the moment is undecided but I have to say I am 60% yes
>and 40% no.
>
>One question I have (if anyone can answer it) is how hot do the lower
>oven doors get to the touch? I ask because I have a 7 month old
>daughter who will soon be walking around. Someone told me that whilst
>they are very warm they're not hot enough to cause any damage (unlike
>when I put my hands on a boiler when I was 3 and the skin between my
>fingers melted and look liked webbed feet, dressed every day for
>several weeks although you'd not know it from the look of them now).
>Is this correct?
Just for you, richard, I dug out my temperature measuring stuff. This
is a special thermocouple probe called a band probe,designed for
measuring surface temperatures to a good degree of accuracy and
certainty (+/- a degree or two. It hooks up via an adaptor to a Fluke
digitl multimeter. I use it for radiator balancing among other
things.
I measured the temperature of our 4 oven gas fired Aga and several
spots over the outside surface -
- Centre of roasting oven door (top right) = 70 degrees
- Centre of baking oven door (bottom rigjt) - 50 degrees
- Centre of simmering oven door (top left) - 46 degrees
- Centre of warming oven (ottom left) - 38 degrees
- Firebox door - centre bottom - 40 degrees
- Front panel above firbox - 70 at bottom 62 at top.
These are all less than CH radiators - not enough I think to inflict
damage before the person says "Ow" and removes their hand.
>
>I also hear that Aga/Rayburns are great for drying overnight
>sleepsuits and bibs - is this true? ;)
Yes they are, and lots of other things. The chrome rail along the
front is one place. The warming plate on the 4 oven model is another,
and using a pan rack above the range is a third.
>
>Next someone will be telling me that there are cheaper ways of drying
>babies clothes than an Aga/Rayburn (maybe a tumble drier? what will
>they think of next....)
>
>Going back to the Alpha, according to their website their USPs (Unique
>Selling Points) are that the ovens are larger than the Aga/Rayburn,
This is probably because there is less insulation of the ovens.
The important things on this are does an individual oven have enough
capacity to take the largest thing that you are ever likely to put in
it, and the total capacity of all the ovens. With a temperature
gradient between ovens, you have the temperature ranges also.
>the hotplate is larger than the Aga/Rayburn (maybe more wasted
>energy?!)
This is similar to the Esse (IIRC) and does indicate that the Alpha is
not really a storage cooker since the area between the plates is
uncovered.
>and the cooker, hotwater and CH are each independently
>controllable.
In effect like the Rayburn Heatranger.
Howard Neil
> Selling Points) are that the ovens are larger than the Aga/Rayburn,
> the hotplate is larger than the Aga/Rayburn (maybe more wasted
> energy?!) and the cooker, hotwater and CH are each independently
> controllable. Has no one reading this got an Alpha (or installed one
> on behalf of a customer) that could comment on the quality and
> features of it?
My (very recently installed) Rayburn 470k has independently controllably
cooker, hot water and CH. Admittedly a separate programmable room stat had
to be wired in but this must now be provided for all new installations,
according to new regulations.
Howard Neil
jacob
More appropriate comparison - internal combustion engine/steam power,
especially as a steam engine has to run continuously to be usable.
Simon Avery
Hello Richard
> R| Seems that these Aga/Rayburns are more like marmite - you
> R| either love them or you hate them!
That's pretty much it, yes. They're more a lifestyle choice that is
less appreciated with more people out working all day.
> R| One question I have (if anyone can answer it) is how hot do
> R| the lower oven doors get to the touch? I ask because I have
> R| a 7 month old daughter who will soon be walking around.
> R| Someone told me that whilst they are very warm they're not
> R| hot enough to cause any damage (unlike when I put my hands
> R| on a boiler when I was 3 and the skin between my fingers
> R| melted and look liked webbed feet, dressed every day
> R| for several weeks although you'd not know it from the look
> R| of them now). Is this correct?
Depends how hot the range is, obviously, but it doesn't get very hot
down there. That said, it /might/ and it could be a worry for a
youngster - as would opening the doors and stuffing things inside.
> R| I also hear that Aga/Rayburns are great for drying overnight
> R| sleepsuits and bibs - is this true? ;)
Yes! Most "farm" installations I've seen have a big spreader mounted
on the ceiling in front of them for clothes, horse blankets etc. Can
get some serious drying done overnight with those.
> R| Next someone will be telling me that there are cheaper ways
> R| of drying babies clothes than an Aga/Rayburn (maybe a tumble
> R| drier? what will they think of next....)
Cheaper, faster, noisier.
I like the ranges, especially in winter when there's a queue in front
of them, but I don't have one here and don't plan on installing
another one (the original was ripped out by the previous owners).
--
Simon Avery, Dartmoor, UK
uk.d-i-y FAQ: http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/
Gordon Henderson
Richard <r_bu...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>Gentlemen,
>
>Seems that these Aga/Rayburns are more like marmite - you either love
>them or you hate them!
>
>As to whether we should install one in our new kitchen that I'm
>'designing' at the moment is undecided but I have to say I am 60% yes
>and 40% no.
Go for it!
Of-course, I'm biased.
However, don't forget the cost of installation. We ended up going over
budget on the cost of ours because se needed the chimney lining and
filling with vermiculite. I ended up doing a lot of the mechanical stuff
- removing the old coal fired one, hacking all the old render, etc. out
of the fireplace and so on to make the new one fit (The Stanley is wider
than the Rayburn)
One thing you *must* find out is how much clearance you need between the
cooker and the walls for things like pipe-work, firewall gaps and so
on. We had some problems with that, not being told anything more than
what we saw in the glossy brochures - when they eventually came to do the
survey we were told it wouldn't fit, so I had to make some 'adjustments'
to the fireplace with a large angle grinder... We also needed 3 feet
vertical clearance too - which may not seem like a problem, unless you
are installing it in a fireplace with a lintel...
>One question I have (if anyone can answer it) is how hot do the lower
>oven doors get to the touch? I ask because I have a 7 month old
>daughter who will soon be walking around. Someone told me that whilst
>they are very warm they're not hot enough to cause any damage (unlike
>when I put my hands on a boiler when I was 3 and the skin between my
>fingers melted and look liked webbed feet, dressed every day for
>several weeks although you'd not know it from the look of them now).
>Is this correct?
Without a good thermometer to hand I can't give the details, but the
lower oven door isn't too hot to touch, the upper one is a bit hot but
not so hot it burns before you can get your hand away. The top of the
cooker does get very hot next to the hotplates.
>I also hear that Aga/Rayburns are great for drying overnight
>sleepsuits and bibs - is this true? ;)
Imagine what a nice 1kW heater with a very large surface area can do
when left on all night :) But it also depends on what you can hang over
the cooker. Ours is half inside a fireplace, so it's a bit limiting,
but it dries towels, etc. very well overnight! We just think of the area
in-front of it as a big airing cupboard. We run a heatsink radiator off
it too (plumbed in paralel with the tank heating coil) which is always
on, and thats in our spare bedroom (where the hot water tank is) thats
a very cozy room indeed!
>Next someone will be telling me that there are cheaper ways of drying
>babies clothes than an Aga/Rayburn (maybe a tumble drier? what will
>they think of next....)
>
>Going back to the Alpha, according to their website their USPs (Unique
>Selling Points) are that the ovens are larger than the Aga/Rayburn,
>the hotplate is larger than the Aga/Rayburn (maybe more wasted
>energy?!) and the cooker, hotwater and CH are each independently
>controllable. Has no one reading this got an Alpha (or installed one
>on behalf of a customer) that could comment on the quality and
>features of it?
If you need an oven larger than an Agas then you are doing some seriously
big cooking! If I recall rightly, it was cost that put us off the Alpha
range. (We looked at Alpha, Esse and Rayburn before going for Stanley)
We really liked the hotplate arrangement of the Stanley too - it has a
large hotplate with 2 separate square covers to cover the entire
hotplate area, and a separate tiny hotplace which is excellent for
keeping the kettle warm or doing very gentle heating operations. Like
melting chocolate... We could have gotten a 2nd hand Aga for a little
more than the price of the Stanley, but we couldn't fit it in, and were
looking for something that'll do us for at least 25 years.
You want a model that has 2 burners to do cooking and CH/HW. Our model
is a single burner model which gives us HW as a side-effect of cooking
(ie. theres no separate HW controlls) This was basically how we ran the
old Rayburn, but the Rayburn, being continuously on with hot coal would
boil the water in the pipes when it was running for a long time at full
heat. The Stanley doesn't quite manage that, but it does provide us
with enough hot water for all our needs, and if we need more, we have a
separate CH/HW back boiler which we can use. (it's got a 3-way valve,
so it just does the CH most of the time and we can switch in the 2nd
tank coil when we need it)
>Long may the debate continue until I need to make a decision in a few
>weeks time....
Good luck! And if you want a laugh, fill out the form on the Aga/Rayburn
web site for a copy of one of their videos... it's well funny!!!
We went for the Stanley over the Rayburn because it was more cooker for
the money. The same priced Rayburn only had an atmospheric gas burner, and
I think no timer (in that range), the Stanley has a fan assisted one which
really makes it heat up quickly and a timer, although I suspect we'll only
use it in the summer. Right now it's on all the time keeping the ktichen
nice and warm, and as I reckoned it would be quite complex to install
CH into the kitchen it's well worth it - I have no other form of heating
the kitchen or loft above it. (Kitchen is in old barn attached to side
of house)
Gordon
Nick Finnigan
> On Sat, 4 Jan 2003 12:12:11 -0000, "Nick Finnigan" <n...@genie.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
> >"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.gl.stopjunkmail> wrote in message
> >
> >> natural gas version) is conservative as well. They mention a figure
> >> of 527kWh per week. If you do the sums simply dividing by 7 days and
> >> 24 hours you get just over 3kW which equates to approx. half of the
> >
> > I did just that, a while ago, and was appalled.
>
> I don't see why, it's next to nothing.
>
> >> max. input level of 5.8kW.
Well, it is about 3 times the amount of heat going into the kitchen,
and suggests people have it on full for most of the daylight hours.
> >> At the idle rate of 880W the weekly consumption would be about 150kWh
> >> assuming you didn't use it.
> >>
> >> I checked the gas consumption at the meter for a 2 week period when
> >> there was no boiler in use and the Aga was the only appliance, and got
> >> 250-300 kWh per week.
> >
> > Which is more than I use for hob, central heating, and water heating
> >in a 4 bedroom semi during the warmer six months of the year.
> >
> Possibly. But what are you using during the colder 6 months?
> I can treat my Aga consumption as part of the winter heating costs,
> although not a large part.
>
> To obtain a meaningful overview, you need to look at a whole year or
> preferably multiple years.
Four years had 3,900 units used, which means about 121 kWh
and 580 kWh per week, 3.5kW average consumption.
Andy Hall
wrote:
d.
>>
>> I don't see why, it's next to nothing.
>>
>> >> max. input level of 5.8kW.
>
> Well, it is about 3 times the amount of heat going into the kitchen,
>and suggests people have it on full for most of the daylight hours.
>
Which clearly they don't so it;s a pretty conservative estimate
>
> Four years had 3,900 units used, which means about 121 kWh
>and 580 kWh per week, 3.5kW average consumption.
>
There you go. In practice, the Aga is using much less than the
manufacturer's figures, and at a quarter of the cost vs electricity
there's a considerable saving.
Andy Hall
(Simon Avery) wrote:
>r_bu...@yahoo.co.uk (Richard) wrote:
>
>Hello Richard
>
>> R| Seems that these Aga/Rayburns are more like marmite - you
>> R| either love them or you hate them!
>
>That's pretty much it, yes. They're more a lifestyle choice that is
>less appreciated with more people out working all day.
Simon, I'd agree with you that lifestyle choice may have a bearing on
choosing a range for some people - i.e. if you like the appearance and
it fits the decor; but from a practical point of view I can pick two
reasons why it's appreciated if I arrive home from being out all day.
- Ready to go immediately
- If people are arriving at different and unpredictable times, food
can be kept in good condition for a lot longer than in a conventional
oven.
>
>> R| One question I have (if anyone can answer it) is how hot do
>> R| the lower oven doors get to the touch? I ask because I have
>> R| a 7 month old daughter who will soon be walking around.
>> R| Someone told me that whilst they are very warm they're not
>> R| hot enough to cause any damage (unlike when I put my hands
>> R| on a boiler when I was 3 and the skin between my fingers
>> R| melted and look liked webbed feet, dressed every day
>> R| for several weeks although you'd not know it from the look
>> R| of them now). Is this correct?
>
>Depends how hot the range is, obviously, but it doesn't get very hot
>down there. That said, it /might/ and it could be a worry for a
>youngster - as would opening the doors and stuffing things inside.
The doors are relatively heavy and on those that have dangerous
temperatures inside, the door is hot enough to the touch that the
nipper will have removed their fingers anyway.
>
>> R| I also hear that Aga/Rayburns are great for drying overnight
>> R| sleepsuits and bibs - is this true? ;)
>
>Yes! Most "farm" installations I've seen have a big spreader mounted
>on the ceiling in front of them for clothes, horse blankets etc. Can
>get some serious drying done overnight with those.
>
>> R| Next someone will be telling me that there are cheaper ways
>> R| of drying babies clothes than an Aga/Rayburn (maybe a tumble
>> R| drier? what will they think of next....)
>
>Cheaper, faster, noisier.
>
>I like the ranges, especially in winter when there's a queue in front
>of them, but I don't have one here and don't plan on installing
>another one (the original was ripped out by the previous owners).
Can't get there because of the animals you mean? That is the one
problem, but not one that I mind having. :-)
Nick Finnigan
> >and 580 kWh per week, 3.5kW average consumption.
> >
> There you go. In practice, the Aga is using much less than the
> manufacturer's figures, and at a quarter of the cost vs electricity
> there's a considerable saving.
Those were mains gas meter units. In practice,
your Aga is using about half of my entire gas use.
Andy Hall
wrote:
>"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.gl.stopjunkmail> wrote in message
>news:pgli1vsel0l3oiksc...@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 6 Jan 2003 09:54:03 -0000, "Nick Finnigan" <n...@genie.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>> d.
>> >
>> > Four years had 3,900 units used, which means about 121 kWh
>> >and 580 kWh per week, 3.5kW average consumption.
>> >
>> There you go. In practice, the Aga is using much less than the
>> manufacturer's figures, and at a quarter of the cost vs electricity
>> there's a considerable saving.
>
> Those were mains gas meter units. In practice,
>your Aga is using about half of my entire gas use.
>
and you cook entirely with gas?
Nick Finnigan
> On Mon, 6 Jan 2003 11:36:46 -0000, "Nick Finnigan" <n...@genie.co.uk>
> wrote:
> >
> >your Aga is using about half of my entire gas use.
> >
> and you cook entirely with gas?
No, we use electricity for kettle, toaster, microwave...
use...@isbd.co.uk
> - If people are arriving at different and unpredictable times, food
> can be kept in good condition for a lot longer than in a conventional
> oven.
>
no fan, lots of other ovens are available with no fan).
--
Chris Green (cgr...@x-1.net)
Simon Avery
Hello Andy
>> That's pretty much it, yes. They're more a lifestyle choice
>> that is less appreciated with more people out working all
>> day.
> AH| Simon, I'd agree with you that lifestyle choice may have a
> AH| bearing on choosing a range for some people - i.e. if you
> AH| like the appearance and it fits the decor; but from a
> AH| practical point of view I can pick two reasons why it's
> AH| appreciated if I arrive home from being out all day.
I think I meant lifestyle as in more you have to change the way you do
things. Certainly with a log burner - I worked out I was losing
between 30 and 45 minutes a day feeding the thing and getting fuel for
it. And learning to control the temperature accurately on a solid fuel
cooker is a lifetime's study course...
> AH| - Ready to go immediately
A modern fan oven takes 5-10 minutes to come up to temperature and is
more controllable and efficient. More to the point, few people
actually cook these days. Most just reheat pre-prepared meals.
> AH| - If people are arriving at different and unpredictable
> AH| times, food can be kept in good condition for a lot longer
> AH| than in a conventional oven.
Can't argue that one. :)
>> Depends how hot the range is, obviously, but it doesn't get
>> very hot down there. That said, it /might/ and it could be
>> a worry for a youngster - as would opening the doors and
>> stuffing things inside.
> AH| The doors are relatively heavy and on those that have
> AH| dangerous temperatures inside, the door is hot enough to the
> AH| touch that the nipper will have removed their fingers
> AH| anyway.
But the catches for these, at least on older rayburns and agas are
commonly broken. Go into a proper farmhouse and it's not unusual to
see a brick keeping the bottom door closed.
>> they think of next....) Cheaper, faster, noisier. I like
>> the ranges, especially in winter when there's a queue in
>> front of them, but I don't have one here and don't plan on
>> installing another one (the original was ripped out by the
>> previous owners).
> AH| Can't get there because of the animals you mean? That is
> AH| the one problem, but not one that I mind having. :-)
Nah, the animals get pushed out the way. We've got one at one of our
stable yards, and come lunchtime it gets very popular at this time of
year. That part is probably the best bit of owning such a beast, but I
won't have another - not for a house with two people who are out at
work all day, just isn't worth it.
jacob
out - they do have a quaint, antique, traction-engine sort of charm.
But I would also have a proper gas cooker so that I wouldn't have to
have the damn thing on all summer.
regArds
Jacob
Andy Hall
I think that there are a variety of factors that have an impact, but
it would be difficult to single one out, and not all would be relevant
to all types of food.
Also, if you think of the practicality of what keeping food available
until a later time means, I'd take it as being that the food should be
as close as possible in terms of taste, moistness, consistency,
temperature and safety as it would be at the optimum time for serving.
Part of that comes during cooking itself, and I've already said that
there is a lot less criticality on timing than with conventional
cookers. Other Aga users say the same thing.
The other part is how effectively the items can be maintained after
cooking has finished.
From a functional point of view, the ovens in the Aga operate
essentially by radiated heat from all around rather than convection.
Aga-Rayburn's comment on this is:-
"Convection occurs when airflow creates energy. In the typical non
convection oven, heated air rises from the heating element and comes
in contact with food. To increase the amount of heat delivered (and
reduce cooking time), either the air must be hotter or the stove needs
to pass the heated air over the food more quickly. This is why a
convection oven adds a fan to mechanically force more rapid air
movement. Unfortunately, this method tends to dry out food."
One of the effects of the roasting oven for certain types of food such
as meat is that the higher temperature (up to 300 degrees in the top
of the roasting oven) seals the meat and retains its moisture.
I suspect that the other factor is that there is a complete range of
temperatures available across the four ovens from about 60 degrees to
300 or so. Then there's the warming plate above the simmering oven at
about 50 degrees. The temperatures also remain remarkably stable,
presumably due to the thermal inertia of the cast iron. I've
measured with a thermocouple in the middle of an oven in the air. If
I open the door, the temperature drops, but on closing it recovers in
a few seconds.
It's very easy to accelerate or decelerate cooking time (or virtually
stop it) for individual items simply by moving them to a slightly
different location, and there's enough space to do that without
juggling between ovens, hobs etc. as we had to with the conventional
setup.
Which of those factors has the greatest influence, I have no idea, but
the end result is a marked improvement.
Andy Hall
wrote:
You could get a proper shower while you're at it.....
Andy Hall
(Simon Avery) wrote:
>Andy Hall <an...@hall.gl.stopjunkmail> wrote:
>
>Hello Andy
>
>>> That's pretty much it, yes. They're more a lifestyle choice
>>> that is less appreciated with more people out working all
>>> day.
>> AH| Simon, I'd agree with you that lifestyle choice may have a
>> AH| bearing on choosing a range for some people - i.e. if you
>> AH| like the appearance and it fits the decor; but from a
>> AH| practical point of view I can pick two reasons why it's
>> AH| appreciated if I arrive home from being out all day.
>
>I think I meant lifestyle as in more you have to change the way you do
>things. Certainly with a log burner - I worked out I was losing
>between 30 and 45 minutes a day feeding the thing and getting fuel for
>it. And learning to control the temperature accurately on a solid fuel
>cooker is a lifetime's study course...
OK, fair point - now I see what you're saying. I had only been
thinking of the "automatic" fuels like gas or oil.
>
>> AH| - Ready to go immediately
>
>A modern fan oven takes 5-10 minutes to come up to temperature and is
>more controllable and efficient. More to the point, few people
>actually cook these days. Most just reheat pre-prepared meals.
Sad but true. We buy virtually none of them and if the kids want
supermarket pizza, they have to buy it themselves, although they tell
me that the baking oven makes a good job of them.
>
>> AH| - If people are arriving at different and unpredictable
>> AH| times, food can be kept in good condition for a lot longer
>> AH| than in a conventional oven.
>
>Can't argue that one. :)
>
>>> Depends how hot the range is, obviously, but it doesn't get
>>> very hot down there. That said, it /might/ and it could be
>>> a worry for a youngster - as would opening the doors and
>>> stuffing things inside.
>> AH| The doors are relatively heavy and on those that have
>> AH| dangerous temperatures inside, the door is hot enough to the
>> AH| touch that the nipper will have removed their fingers
>> AH| anyway.
>
>But the catches for these, at least on older rayburns and agas are
>commonly broken. Go into a proper farmhouse and it's not unusual to
>see a brick keeping the bottom door closed.
Never heard of that before, they're part of the castings.
>
>>> they think of next....) Cheaper, faster, noisier. I like
>>> the ranges, especially in winter when there's a queue in
>>> front of them, but I don't have one here and don't plan on
>>> installing another one (the original was ripped out by the
>>> previous owners).
>> AH| Can't get there because of the animals you mean? That is
>> AH| the one problem, but not one that I mind having. :-)
>
>Nah, the animals get pushed out the way. We've got one at one of our
>stable yards, and come lunchtime it gets very popular at this time of
>year.
Try potatoes rubbed in sea salt before baking :-)
>That part is probably the best bit of owning such a beast, but I
>won't have another - not for a house with two people who are out at
>work all day, just isn't worth it.
jacob
> >Actually although I'm rude about agas if I had one I wouldn't chuck it
> >out - they do have a quaint, antique, traction-engine sort of charm.
> >But I would also have a proper gas cooker so that I wouldn't have to
> >have the damn thing on all summer.
> >
> You could get a proper shower while you're at it.....
> Andy Hall
Ooooh! Well you would need a proper shower if you had to spend hours
a day stoking a solid fuel Rayburn. Mind you if you could afford to
buy a new aga you could also afford to employ a stoker .
Jacob
use...@isbd.co.uk
> On 6 Jan 2003 15:38:47 GMT, use...@isbd.co.uk wrote:
>
>>Andy Hall <an...@hall.gl.stopjunkmail> wrote:
>>> - If people are arriving at different and unpredictable times, food
>>> can be kept in good condition for a lot longer than in a conventional
>>> oven.
>>>
>>Why - can you suggest any logical reason for this? (... and don't say
>>no fan, lots of other ovens are available with no fan).
>
> I think that there are a variety of factors that have an impact, but
> it would be difficult to single one out, and not all would be relevant
> to all types of food.
>
> Also, if you think of the practicality of what keeping food available
> until a later time means, I'd take it as being that the food should be
> as close as possible in terms of taste, moistness, consistency,
> temperature and safety as it would be at the optimum time for serving.
>
> Part of that comes during cooking itself, and I've already said that
> there is a lot less criticality on timing than with conventional
> cookers. Other Aga users say the same thing.
> The other part is how effectively the items can be maintained after
> cooking has finished.
I think much of the reason behind that is that people who cook on Agas
cook the type of meal that works well in an Aga, not that the Aga is
better. Talking to an Aga salesperson my wife found that she (the
salesperson) used the ovens for just about everything and very rarely
cooked on the top. Thus the style of cooking has changed to fit the
cooker. I would expect that casseroles and pot roasts would cook well
in an Aga *and* would keep well without drying up. However the same
meals would keep just as well in an ordinary cooker.
If you do a conventional roast on the other hand I can see no reason
why it wouldn't dry up just as quickly in an Aga as in an ordinary
oven.
>
> From a functional point of view, the ovens in the Aga operate
> essentially by radiated heat from all around rather than convection.
>
> Aga-Rayburn's comment on this is:-
>
> "Convection occurs when airflow creates energy. In the typical non
> convection oven, heated air rises from the heating element and comes
> in contact with food. To increase the amount of heat delivered (and
> reduce cooking time), either the air must be hotter or the stove needs
> to pass the heated air over the food more quickly. This is why a
> convection oven adds a fan to mechanically force more rapid air
> movement. Unfortunately, this method tends to dry out food."
>
> One of the effects of the roasting oven for certain types of food such
> as meat is that the higher temperature (up to 300 degrees in the top
> of the roasting oven) seals the meat and retains its moisture.
>
How does an Aga manage this better than a conventional oven? I just
don't see it. Conventional ovens with the fan off have radiant
heating elements which can make the sides of the oven just as hot as
the sides of an Aga oven. Assuming they're somewhere around the same
colour (black usually!) then the heat radiated will be exactly the
same. The only advantage the Aga can have as I see it is if the oven
is smaller, but that's cheating. Our second oven is probably smaller
than Aga ovens so would do even better.
> I suspect that the other factor is that there is a complete range of
> temperatures available across the four ovens from about 60 degrees to
> 300 or so. Then there's the warming plate above the simmering oven at
> about 50 degrees. The temperatures also remain remarkably stable,
> presumably due to the thermal inertia of the cast iron. I've
> measured with a thermocouple in the middle of an oven in the air. If
> I open the door, the temperature drops, but on closing it recovers in
> a few seconds.
>
Er, strangely enough, other ovens have a 'complete range of
temperatures' too, ours even has a 'keeping warm' setting. Having a
twin oven and an extra large oven we have a choice of three ovens so
we can do things simultaneously at different temperatures. Our
ovens cost aboout £1000 total for the twin and the big single giving a
much wider range of oven sizes than an Aga.
> It's very easy to accelerate or decelerate cooking time (or virtually
> stop it) for individual items simply by moving them to a slightly
> different location, and there's enough space to do that without
> juggling between ovens, hobs etc. as we had to with the conventional
> setup.
>
That sounds more hassle than simply changing the temperature on the
control knob.
--
Chris Green (cgr...@x-1.net)
Simon Avery
Hello Andy
(Snowed in today, so catching up on mail)
>> But the catches for these, at least on older rayburns and
>> agas are commonly broken. Go into a proper farmhouse and
>> it's not unusual to see a brick keeping the bottom door
>> closed.
> AH| Never heard of that before, they're part of the castings.
The lift and shove ones? Just need to be slammed without lifting a few
times and they crack, and even if used carefully erode after a few
decades...
>> Nah, the animals get pushed out the way. We've got one at
>> one of our stable yards, and come lunchtime it gets very
>> popular at this time of year.
> AH| Try potatoes rubbed in sea salt before baking :-)
Ahh... When I was working in the woods and we had a fire going,
toasted sandwiches on a pitchfork - superb!
Andy Hall
>
>
>> Part of that comes during cooking itself, and I've already said that
>> there is a lot less criticality on timing than with conventional
>> cookers. Other Aga users say the same thing.
>
>> The other part is how effectively the items can be maintained after
>> cooking has finished.
>
>I think much of the reason behind that is that people who cook on Agas
>cook the type of meal that works well in an Aga, not that the Aga is
>better.
Not especially. We cook a very wide range of stuff and haven't found
anything that doesn't work well.
>Talking to an Aga salesperson my wife found that she (the
>salesperson) used the ovens for just about everything and very rarely
>cooked on the top.
That's what you are meant to do and is the basic principle in using a
storage cooker.
>Thus the style of cooking has changed to fit the
>cooker.
The places that you do things change - e.g. grilling in the oven or
frying (although frying andd griddling can be done well on the top as
well.)
It takes most people only a day or two to adapt to the different way
of working, but it then becomes apparent how much less hassle it is
because there is much less need to stand over the cooking while it's
happening.
> I would expect that casseroles and pot roasts would cook well
>in an Aga *and* would keep well without drying up. However the same
>meals would keep just as well in an ordinary cooker.
They do, but I was commenting in general that there is less drying out
and overcooking.
>
>If you do a conventional roast on the other hand I can see no reason
>why it wouldn't dry up just as quickly in an Aga as in an ordinary
>oven.
Less convection and airflow? I don't know, but it doesn't.
>
>>
>> From a functional point of view, the ovens in the Aga operate
>> essentially by radiated heat from all around rather than convection.
>>
>> Aga-Rayburn's comment on this is:-
>>
>> "Convection occurs when airflow creates energy. In the typical non
>> convection oven, heated air rises from the heating element and comes
>> in contact with food. To increase the amount of heat delivered (and
>> reduce cooking time), either the air must be hotter or the stove needs
>> to pass the heated air over the food more quickly. This is why a
>> convection oven adds a fan to mechanically force more rapid air
>> movement. Unfortunately, this method tends to dry out food."
>>
>> One of the effects of the roasting oven for certain types of food such
>> as meat is that the higher temperature (up to 300 degrees in the top
>> of the roasting oven) seals the meat and retains its moisture.
>>
>How does an Aga manage this better than a conventional oven? I just
>don't see it. Conventional ovens with the fan off have radiant
>heating elements which can make the sides of the oven just as hot as
>the sides of an Aga oven.
Are they all round? I don't know. The cooking method is
predominantly convection, however.
> Assuming they're somewhere around the same
>colour (black usually!) then the heat radiated will be exactly the
>same. The only advantage the Aga can have as I see it is if the oven
>is smaller, but that's cheating. Our second oven is probably smaller
>than Aga ovens so would do even better.
>
Maybe it's the combination of types of heat being different.
>
>> I suspect that the other factor is that there is a complete range of
>> temperatures available across the four ovens from about 60 degrees to
>> 300 or so. Then there's the warming plate above the simmering oven at
>> about 50 degrees. The temperatures also remain remarkably stable,
>> presumably due to the thermal inertia of the cast iron. I've
>> measured with a thermocouple in the middle of an oven in the air. If
>> I open the door, the temperature drops, but on closing it recovers in
>> a few seconds.
>>
>Er, strangely enough, other ovens have a 'complete range of
>temperatures' too, ours even has a 'keeping warm' setting. Having a
>twin oven and an extra large oven we have a choice of three ovens so
>we can do things simultaneously at different temperatures.
Our old one had that as well, but the keeping warm setting was never
that accurate or effective.
>Our
>ovens cost aboout £1000 total for the twin and the big single giving a
>much wider range of oven sizes than an Aga.
>
Good deal, although we haven't had a single situation of not being
able to fit in all that we wanted and more.
>
>> It's very easy to accelerate or decelerate cooking time (or virtually
>> stop it) for individual items simply by moving them to a slightly
>> different location, and there's enough space to do that without
>> juggling between ovens, hobs etc. as we had to with the conventional
>> setup.
>>
>That sounds more hassle than simply changing the temperature on the
>control knob.
Not really, and doesn't need to be done that much because there is
much less criticaility over timing.
To really pick up the differences and effectiveness, you have to cook
with a storage cooker for a while. It's much easier than trying to
explain.
Ophelia
"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.gl.stopjunkmail> wrote in message
I have to say Andy that if ever I get the space to own one I SHALL do so:))
You have convinced me!
You sure you are not on commission???
Ophelia:)
Gordon Henderson
Andy Hall <an...@hall.gl.stopjunkmail> wrote:
>On 7 Jan 2003 09:41:11 GMT, use...@isbd.co.uk wrote:
>
>>I think much of the reason behind that is that people who cook on Agas
>>cook the type of meal that works well in an Aga, not that the Aga is
>>better.
>
>Not especially. We cook a very wide range of stuff and haven't found
>anything that doesn't work well.
Myself and partner are mostly vegetarian too - veggie food cooks
superbly in the Stanley. They are not just for long slow-cook sort of
stuff. Steamed rice now comes out perfect every time. And it's saving us
money - we can batch cook chick peas, kidney beans, etc. and freeze them
at a fraction of the cost of buying tins these days. Overnight porridge &
baked rice pudding... You just can't beat it!
>To really pick up the differences and effectiveness, you have to cook
>with a storage cooker for a while. It's much easier than trying to
>explain.
Indeed!
I was a bit aprehensive about buying my house with the coal-fired Rayburn
in as the only means of cooking, but after a week we were both converts
to it and by the 2nd week we had mastered control of the fire to a fine
degree. The Aga-Rayburn company posted us copies of the original manual
too, free of charge, so there was no excuse for us to not learn how to
control it, coal fire and all!
Gordon
use...@isbd.co.uk
>
>>Talking to an Aga salesperson my wife found that she (the
>>salesperson) used the ovens for just about everything and very rarely
>>cooked on the top.
>
> That's what you are meant to do and is the basic principle in using a
> storage cooker.
>
>
>> I would expect that casseroles and pot roasts would cook well
>>in an Aga *and* would keep well without drying up. However the same
>>meals would keep just as well in an ordinary cooker.
>
> They do, but I was commenting in general that there is less drying out
> and overcooking.
>
"less drying out and overcooking" than what though? Apparently not
less than when you cook the *same* things in an ordinary cooker. If
you cook things that dry out less easily then it's hardly an advantage
of the Aga.
>>
>>If you do a conventional roast on the other hand I can see no reason
>>why it wouldn't dry up just as quickly in an Aga as in an ordinary
>>oven.
>
> Less convection and airflow? I don't know, but it doesn't.
>
Rather like electronic water softeners then! :-)
>>How does an Aga manage this better than a conventional oven? I just
>>don't see it. Conventional ovens with the fan off have radiant
>>heating elements which can make the sides of the oven just as hot as
>>the sides of an Aga oven.
>
> Are they all round? I don't know. The cooking method is
> predominantly convection, however.
>
I really can't see how it can be any different, put food in a hot box
of a given size and the food won't know if the hot box is heated by
electricity (as in conventional oven) or coal/oil (as in an Aga).
I'd really like to see some 'side by side' comparisons done on this to
see if there really *are* any differences because, if there are (which
I doubt) it should be pretty trivial to make an electric oven work
like an Aga (if it's better).
>> Assuming they're somewhere around the same
>>colour (black usually!) then the heat radiated will be exactly the
>>same. The only advantage the Aga can have as I see it is if the oven
>>is smaller, but that's cheating. Our second oven is probably smaller
>>than Aga ovens so would do even better.
>>
>
> Maybe it's the combination of types of heat being different.
>
But there's no way it can be different! It's a hot box with no
transparent walls or holes so the heat can only get to the food in
exactly the same way in both ovens. The way the walls of the oven are
heated will make no difference at all to the relative amounts of
radiated and convected heat getting to the food in a given size of
oven. There can be no radiated heat from 'outside' because the walls
of both types of oven are opaque to radiated heat.
>
>>Our
>>ovens cost aboout £1000 total for the twin and the big single giving a
>>much wider range of oven sizes than an Aga.
>>
> Good deal, although we haven't had a single situation of not being
> able to fit in all that we wanted and more.
>
Not a particularly "good deal", that's what conventional electric ovens
cost! :-)
--
Chris Green (cgr...@x-1.net)
use...@isbd.co.uk
>
> Myself and partner are mostly vegetarian too - veggie food cooks
> superbly in the Stanley. They are not just for long slow-cook sort of
> stuff. Steamed rice now comes out perfect every time. And it's saving us
> money - we can batch cook chick peas, kidney beans, etc. and freeze them
> at a fraction of the cost of buying tins these days. Overnight porridge &
> baked rice pudding... You just can't beat it!
>
huge and excellent for batch cooking of large quantities of almost
anything. It only cost £500 too, rather a small fraction of an Aga.
--
Chris Green (cgr...@x-1.net)
Gordon Henderson
I'm happy that you are happy with your oven. I'm happy with my Stanley!
Gordon
Andy Hall
>Andy Hall <an...@hall.gl.stopjunkmail> wrote:
>>
>>>Talking to an Aga salesperson my wife found that she (the
>>>salesperson) used the ovens for just about everything and very rarely
>>>cooked on the top.
>>
>> That's what you are meant to do and is the basic principle in using a
>> storage cooker.
>>
>So you admit that the hob on an Aga *isn't* as versatile then?
No I didn't say that , but that the convention is to use the ovens
more than the top. For example, I can boil vegetables in a pan on the
boiling plate, but I get much better results by starting them for a
very short time that way and finishing them in a dish in the oven; and
it is not a case of there being a short time between 'al dente' and
mush, as there so often is with boiling on a burner.
>
>>
>>> I would expect that casseroles and pot roasts would cook well
>>>in an Aga *and* would keep well without drying up. However the same
>>>meals would keep just as well in an ordinary cooker.
>>
>> They do, but I was commenting in general that there is less drying out
>> and overcooking.
>>
>"less drying out and overcooking" than what though? Apparently not
>less than when you cook the *same* things in an ordinary cooker. If
>you cook things that dry out less easily then it's hardly an advantage
>of the Aga.
>
Our experience with the same dishes has been that there is less drying
out and other deteriorations, across a broad spectrum - i.e. not just
things that one might expect to be tolerant.
>>>
>>>If you do a conventional roast on the other hand I can see no reason
>>>why it wouldn't dry up just as quickly in an Aga as in an ordinary
>>>oven.
>>
>> Less convection and airflow? I don't know, but it doesn't.
>>
>Rather like electronic water softeners then! :-)
The available mechanisms are fairly well known unlike water
conditioners. WHat is less clear is what affects different types of
food. It's a fair point to question how it all works but I haven't
claimed to know all the answers. We are also talking about a number
of fairly complicated biological and organic chemistry things going on
with cooking vs. something perhaps happening physically or
inorganically. I'm not suggesting that everybody buys a storage
cooker either.
>
>>>How does an Aga manage this better than a conventional oven? I just
>>>don't see it. Conventional ovens with the fan off have radiant
>>>heating elements which can make the sides of the oven just as hot as
>>>the sides of an Aga oven.
>>
>> Are they all round? I don't know. The cooking method is
>> predominantly convection, however.
>>
>I really can't see how it can be any different, put food in a hot box
>of a given size and the food won't know if the hot box is heated by
>electricity (as in conventional oven) or coal/oil (as in an Aga).
>I'd really like to see some 'side by side' comparisons done on this to
>see if there really *are* any differences because, if there are (which
>I doubt) it should be pretty trivial to make an electric oven work
>like an Aga (if it's better).
I can only give you what and others have observed plus some theories
as to what the reasons might be.
The oven manufacturers went the other way in terms of applying more
and more technology in an attempt to make what they have seen as
better and more controllable products. In doing so, I think that a
lot of them have lost the plot. For example we used to have a Neff
circulating air oven that came with all sorts of claims about having
good and even temperature control and that could (for example) cook a
tray of biscuits evenly. It didn't, and from what I hear, they
don't. In the old days ovens offered selective temperature control
through moving things around, until technology advance dictated fans.
Now they've gone back to being able to switch these off because they
create more problems than they solve. I wouldn't mind betting that
they'll discover cast iron some time soon. That may or may not be a
factor in the Aga behaviour but things do go full circle. The one
thing that you can say is that the heat storage technology has been
the same and works consistently well for more than 80 years so tere is
something right with it.
>
>
>>> Assuming they're somewhere around the same
>>>colour (black usually!) then the heat radiated will be exactly the
>>>same. The only advantage the Aga can have as I see it is if the oven
>>>is smaller, but that's cheating. Our second oven is probably smaller
>>>than Aga ovens so would do even better.
>>>
>>
>> Maybe it's the combination of types of heat being different.
>>
>But there's no way it can be different! It's a hot box with no
>transparent walls or holes so the heat can only get to the food in
>exactly the same way in both ovens. The way the walls of the oven are
>heated will make no difference at all to the relative amounts of
>radiated and convected heat getting to the food in a given size of
>oven. There can be no radiated heat from 'outside' because the walls
>of both types of oven are opaque to radiated heat.
>
I'll tell you what. I'll contact Aga Rayburn and see if they can
offer a more detailed explanation of the behaviour of the product,
>>
>>>Our
>>>ovens cost aboout £1000 total for the twin and the big single giving a
>>>much wider range of oven sizes than an Aga.
>>>
>> Good deal, although we haven't had a single situation of not being
>> able to fit in all that we wanted and more.
>>
>Not a particularly "good deal", that's what conventional electric ovens
>cost! :-)
Andy Hall
jacob
distinct from agas etc}. We have never had this problem but we did not
like a fan assisted electric oven we once had. Gas is better we think.
The benefits of cast iron can be obtained by using pans like le
creuset etc. We do some lovely slow pot roasts in a big cast iron pot
on top of the oven on a very low light. It would work just as well on
a primus, or anything, and uses very little fuel.
Jacob
use...@isbd.co.uk
it's the type of cooking one does and the actual cooking containers
one uses that affects the 'drying out' or not of the food.
--
Chris Green (cgr...@x-1.net)
dawn...@googlemail.com
harryagain
<dawn...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:02ef5072-15ce-4e7e...@googlegroups.com...
> Takes a while to heat but worth it. do not worry about Alpha's they are to
> be recommended.
Are you a troll?
Tim+
or an Alpha employee.
Tim
The Natural Philosopher
up with that post, and responded to it, gormlessly.
> Tim
>
--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. – Erwin Knoll
sa...@blairshots.co.uk
> We're looking to have fitted in our new kitchen either a Rayburn or an
> Alpha oil-fired cooker/hot water/central heating boiler.
>
> Clearly Rayburn is the famous make but the largest they do seems to be
> for upto 21 radiators and that is the exact number in our house which
> makes me concerned about buying something upto it's maximum on day-one
> (especially since we may extend in the future).
>
> I understand that Alpha make a very similar model but allegedly has
> the benefit of bigger ovens, bigger hot plate and independently
> controllable oven/water/heating.
>
> Does anyone own an Alpha and could give me an opinion? I have searched
> the group and it's seems varied reports some time ago.
>
> Any input or suggestions would be greatfully received.
>
> Many thanks, in advance.
>
> Richard.
Very difficult to find anyone to service Alpha s very expensive too last service £1500 2 years ago and now needs another service.
Marland
> On Thursday, January 2, 2003 at 2:50:01 PM UTC, Richard wrote:
>> We're looking to have fitted in our new kitchen either a Rayburn or an
>> Alpha oil-fired cooker/hot water/central heating boiler.
>>
>> the group and it's seems varied reports some time ago.
>>
>> Any input or suggestions would be greatfully received.
>>
>> Many thanks, in advance.
>>
>> Richard.
>
> Very difficult to find anyone to service Alpha s very expensive too last
> service £1500 2 years ago and now needs another service.
>
I hope your ability to read the settings on your camera is better than than
your ability to read the date of the question to which you were replying.
It was asked 16 years ago.
GH
GB
>> Very difficult to find anyone to service Alpha s very expensive too last
>> service £1500 2 years ago and now needs another service.
>>
>
> A quick gander around the web shows that you run a photography business,
> I hope your ability to read the settings on your camera is better than than
> your ability to read the date of the question to which you were replying.
> It was asked 16 years ago.
surprised she's taking every opportunity to mention it.
The Natural Philosopher
--
"I guess a rattlesnake ain't risponsible fer bein' a rattlesnake, but ah
puts mah heel on um jess the same if'n I catches him around mah chillun".
harry
> We're looking to have fitted in our new kitchen either a Rayburn or an
> Alpha oil-fired cooker/hot water/central heating boiler.
>
> for upto 21 radiators and that is the exact number in our house which
> makes me concerned about buying something upto it's maximum on day-one
> (especially since we may extend in the future).
>
> I understand that Alpha make a very similar model but allegedly has
> the benefit of bigger ovens, bigger hot plate and independently
> controllable oven/water/heating.
>
> the group and it's seems varied reports some time ago.
>
> Any input or suggestions would be greatfully received.
>
> Many thanks, in advance.
>
> Richard.
Pretty useless in fact.
Most people have a conventional cooker next to them.
Alan
> On Thursday, 2 January 2003 14:50:01 UTC, Richard wrote:
>> We're looking to have fitted in our new kitchen either a Rayburn or an
>> Alpha oil-fired cooker/hot water/central heating boiler.
>
> in fact.
> Most people have a conventional cooker next to them.
the matter, now he can go ahead and get a gas cooker.
Stuart Pembery
Mike Rogers
> On Friday, 25 January 2019 at 18:46:42 UTC, Alan wrote:
>> On Fri, 25 Jan 2019 09:23:47 -0800, harry wrote:
>>
>>> On Thursday, 2 January 2003 14:50:01 UTC, Richard wrote:
>>>> We're looking to have fitted in our new kitchen either a Rayburn or an
>>>> Alpha oil-fired cooker/hot water/central heating boiler.
>>
10 year old oil boiler. No regrets whatsoever. It contains two
condensing oil burners, one 80,000 Btu heats the water and central
heating far more efficiently than the boiler it replaced, the second
heats the cooker as and when needed.
Mike