Replacing plumbing in Victorian house
Jim Black
After trying to obtain what I consider to be reasonable qoutes for the past 4 or 5
months to replace all the lead pipework, tanks and mains into a 5 bedroom,
three public room house, I have reached the point where I am considering
doing the job myself. So..
1. Whats a reasonable cost to do a job like this - the lowest price I've had is
close to 2K pounds!!!
2. Has anyone got any experience of undertaking a job like this, when they
have had little plumbing experience before? What are the problems, etc?
How long did it take? What are the best materials to use (ie copper versus
flexible pipework, etc)
Jim Black
Hewlett Packard
Usenet comments do not reflect the views of my employer.
Jon Rouse
Jim Black <jim-ts...@hp-unitedkingdom-om3.om.hp.com> wrote:
>1. Whats a reasonable cost to do a job like this - the lowest price I've had is
>close to 2K pounds!!!
Draw up a bill-of-materials, then get price lists from your local
plumbers merchant. If you are spending a reasonable sum of money (and
especially if its cash on the nail) they will give you a good discount
>2. Has anyone got any experience of undertaking a job like this, when they
>have had little plumbing experience before? What are the problems, etc?
>How long did it take? What are the best materials to use (ie copper versus
>flexible pipework, etc)
Yes, I tackled plumbing (including central heating) in a couple of
terraced houses I bought in West Yorkshire. I used copper with mainly
Yorkshire fittings - end feed need a little more practice and if you're
working in awkward spaces I would recommend solder-ring just because you
(hopefully) won't have to re-do them if anything goes wrong. (A friend of
mine installed a full central heating system and ran the pump for a week
to flush out all the gunk, draining and filling it two or three times. It
was only when he fired up the boiler he found the one joint that he'd
fluxed but not soldered!).
The only place I've considered compression fittings lately is where a
rising main comes in via a (slightly) leaking stop-cock. I used a solder
fitting the first time, but now I've come to make changes I can't
unsolder despite the application of excessive amounts of heat. So it will
be a hacksaw through the pipe and a compression fitting next time.
My brother-in-law had his heating done in flexible pipe - its definitely
easier for awkwardly placed radiators, but it does tend to dag, and
personally I find it unsightly. However I have used those flexible tap
connectors when I installed my corner bath, simply because I couldn't
position it accurately and connect it at the same time.
--
Usenet comments do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer.
Simon Jenkins
In article <4ua2as$4...@igateway.uk-po.com>, Jon Rouse
<rou...@royalmail.co.uk> writes
a strainer on your pump and treat your water regularly.
--
Simon Jenkins
Simon Jenkins
In article <3208F2...@hp-unitedkingdom-om3.om.hp.com>, Jim Black
<jim-ts...@hp-unitedkingdom-om3.om.hp.com> writes
>After trying to obtain what I consider to be reasonable qoutes for the past 4 or
>5
>months to replace all the lead pipework, tanks and mains into a 5 bedroom,
>three public room house, I have reached the point where I am considering
>doing the job myself. So..
>
>close to 2K pounds!!!
>
>2. Has anyone got any experience of undertaking a job like this, when they
>have had little plumbing experience before? What are the problems, etc?
>How long did it take? What are the best materials to use (ie copper versus
>flexible pipework, etc)
>
>Jim Black
>Hewlett Packard
>
>Usenet comments do not reflect the views of my employer.
The problem you will have doing it yourself is the buying clout you will
not have with your local plumbers merchant. You will also probably
choose to use copper capillary fittings with integral solder rings (easy
to use but not cheap) as opposed to end feed (difficult to use unless
you have an expensive high temperature torch and have done little else
for the last ten years)
I did my house a couple of years ago - three months of working weekends
all through summer. I did a better job than any plumber an I at least
got it right but it was one long slog - you may consider the money saved
is not worth the work.
--
Simon Jenkins
Matthew Marks
Simon Jenkins (si...@ballarat.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: end feed (difficult to use unless
: you have an expensive high temperature torch and have done little else
: for the last ten years)
Not in my experience: I have soldered new and used end-feed fittings no
problem with a hot air paint stripper - I don't see them as being significantly
more difficult than solder ring, provided you flux them properly.
Matthew mat...@rd.bbc.co.uk My opinions, not Auntie's.
Phil Addison
Jim Black <jim-ts...@hp-unitedkingdom-om3.om.hp.com> wrote:
> After trying to obtain what I consider to be reasonable qoutes for the past 4 or 5
> months to replace all the lead pipework, tanks and mains into a 5 bedroom,
> three public room house, I have reached the point where I am considering
> doing the job myself. So..
>
> 1. Whats a reasonable cost to do a job like this - the lowest price I've had is
> close to 2K pounds!!!
>
> 2. Has anyone got any experience of undertaking a job like this, when they
> have had little plumbing experience before? What are the problems, etc?
> How long did it take? What are the best materials to use (ie copper versus
> flexible pipework, etc)
I've been working on my Victorian plumbing for years on and off,
but in the last job I discovered flexible pipework (which you
elude to above) thanks to the advice given to me on here. I went
ahead and used it and it really does make the task much, much,
easier and quicker. The guy in the plumbers shop where I bought
the stuff told me I would never go back to copper after using and
he was right. I'm converted.
The stuff is made by Hepworth and called Hepolite2O (H2O) -
that's subscript 2 and capital O, geddit?
The tube and fittings are *totally* compatible with compression
copper, that is you can fit the flex tube in a copper (ie brass!)
fitting and also attacch the plastic H2O fittings to copper pipe.
Hence you can join it to existing copper and/or still use copper
in the parts where it is visible. You don't want a wavy flexible
grey pipe going round your living room skirting.
It's OK for both high pressure cold mains and hot water, both
domestic and central heating temperatures.
Costs on the face of it are marginally higher but there are far
fewer joints and elbows because the pipe bends to 15cm radius and
comes in 25/50/100m coils, and 3m straight lengths.
Ring Hepolite for technical brochure on 01226 766927.
For more details you can retrieve (from DejaNews?) recent threads
on the subject:-
Subject: Re: Plastic piping & central heating
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 21:18:46 GMT
Subject: Platic pipework: discuss
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Date: 13 Jun 1996 12:21:49 +0100
Finally if you want to do it the hard way, there is lots of
advice on soldering copper fittings in this thread:-
Subject: Capilliary fittings - not working
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 14:57:24 GMT
Good Luck,
--
Phil ---- Bristol
Tim Robinson
Jim Black <jim-ts...@hp-unitedkingdom-om3.om.hp.com> wrote:
>1. Whats a reasonable cost to do a job like this - the lowest price I've had is
>close to 2K pounds!!!
Very difficult to say...Are you replacing the tanks as well? If so,
you could save a lot of plumbing by installing an unvented system - no
header tanks and narrower bore pipe almost everywhere.
>2. Has anyone got any experience of undertaking a job like this, when they
>have had little plumbing experience before? What are the problems, etc?
Biggest problem with any DIY job is not the job itself but managing
the household whilst you are doing it!
Be prepared for much domestic strife whilst
-no water
- floorboards up
Children guaranteed to be sick when you've disconnected the mains,
drained the tank and need a widget at 8.30 pm on a Saturday night. (I
speak from experience!)
Quite seriously, this is the most awkward part of that kind of DIY
project that has unless you have a very cooperaitve family situation.
As for the job itself, the principle is very simple (especially with a
pressurised system). The practialities of getting pipes under
floorboards, brickwork, concrete, discovering a mixture of existing
metric and imperial pipe are all more difficult.
If you go for it, plan the job meticulously beforehand. Sit and look
under the bath - spend an evening looking at the boiler and airing
cupboard and think it all through. It will inevitably be cheaper to
do it yourself, but the extra time, hassle, takeaway food, cut hands,
trips to B&Q, followed by Homebase and then a proper plumbers'
merchant all take their toll.
Good luck - sounds like a fasinating substitute for a summer
holiday...!
Best Regards
Tim Robinson
Basingstoke
Best Regards
Tim Robinson
Basingstoke,
UK
John Stumbles
On Wed, 7 Aug 1996, Jim Black wrote:
> After trying to obtain what I consider to be reasonable qoutes for the
> past 4 or 5 months to replace all the lead pipework, tanks and mains
> into a 5 bedroom, three public room house, I have reached the point
> where I am considering doing the job myself. So..
>
> 1. Whats a reasonable cost to do a job like this - the lowest price I've
> had is close to 2K pounds!!!
>
> 2. Has anyone got any experience of undertaking a job like this, when
> they have had little plumbing experience before? What are the problems,
> etc? How long did it take? What are the best materials to use (ie
> copper versus flexible pipework, etc)
I replumbed my Victorian house, never having done any plumbing before
(although I was used to soldering, which may have helped).
It took me ages and many mistakes, though I'm glad I did it for the
learning experience. I've no idea how much I spent or how much it'd cost
at today's prices. However if I were doing it again I'd use plastic
pipework (Hepworth's Hep2.O). There was a discussion on this recently -
see the archive at my web page below.
--
John Stumbles j.d.st...@reading.ac.uk
Computer Services, University of Reading http://www.rdg.ac.uk/~suqstmbl
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
I'd rather be gardening
Andy Mabbett
In article <83958247...@groverd.demon.co.uk>, Tim Robinson
<ti...@groverd.demon.co.uk> writes
>Biggest problem with any DIY job is not the job itself but managing
>the household whilst you are doing it!
Isn't that what in- laws (or other relatives, preferably with a cottage
in the country) are for?
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------
| Andy Mabbett, Training Services Division, |
| Birmingham City Council - Economic Development |
| EMail: andy...@bcceddts.demon.co.uk |
| Phone: (+) 44 121 235 3087 Fax: (+) 44 121 235 1325 |
| Post: PO Box 2470 Birmingham B1 2NF England |
| WWW: http://birmingham.gov.uk |
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Jon Rouse
ph...@severn.demon.co.uk (Phil Addison) wrote:
>Jim Black <jim-ts...@hp-unitedkingdom-om3.om.hp.com> wrote:
>I've been working on my Victorian plumbing for years on and off,
>but in the last job I discovered flexible pipework (which you
>elude to above) thanks to the advice given to me on here. I went
>ahead and used it and it really does make the task much, much,
>easier and quicker. The guy in the plumbers shop where I bought
>the stuff told me I would never go back to copper after using and
>he was right. I'm converted.
>
>The stuff is made by Hepworth and called Hepolite2O (H2O) -
>that's subscript 2 and capital O, geddit?
>
My latest newsletter from Yorkhire Imperial or whatever they cal
themselves these days says they have just brought out some cheap
re-usable palstics fittings, which will work with copper or plastics
pipe.
--
Usenet comments do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer.
Megan Farr
ph...@severn.demon.co.uk (Phil Addison) wrote:
>Jim Black <jim-ts...@hp-unitedkingdom-om3.om.hp.com> wrote:
>> After trying to obtain what I consider to be reasonable qoutes for the past 4 or 5
>> months to replace all the lead pipework, tanks and mains into a 5 bedroom,
>> three public room house, I have reached the point where I am considering
>> doing the job myself. So..
>>
>I've been working on my Victorian plumbing for years on and off,
>but in the last job I discovered flexible pipework
I did my re-plumbing myself. I used copper as I hadn't bought a new
DIY book and my father-in-law's didn't have any info! Invest in a new
DIY book if you're going ahead, I wish I had. On inspection of my
grandmother's cellar at Christmas, flexible is far easier! It was
easy enough, I actually quite enjoyed it. I used Yorkshire fittings,
not compression, they are supposed to be better, though no good with
plastic :-). I also figured you need compressions when you go through
floors, so it can easily be worked on. I replaced all the plumbing
from the pipe coming from the street onwards. I'd never done it
before, but I've played with Lego and its the same concept, fitting
together bits that are the right length. If you use copper, get tap
connectors (flexible copper piping) for tricky bits, much easier!
Megan Farr
Calderbridge
Cumbria
England
Megan Farr
Oh yeah, forgot. Don't buy your supplies at B&Q et al. A connector
that might cost £2-3 for two will be about 50p at a builders and
plumbers merchant! I've only bought from DIY shops in emergencies
(that widget at 8.30 on saturday night!).
Alan J Holmes
In article <83958247...@groverd.demon.co.uk>,
Tim Robinson <ti...@groverd.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Jim Black <jim-ts...@hp-unitedkingdom-om3.om.hp.com> wrote:
>>1. Whats a reasonable cost to do a job like this - the lowest price I've had is
>>close to 2K pounds!!!
>Very difficult to say...Are you replacing the tanks as well? If so,
>you could save a lot of plumbing by installing an unvented system - no
>header tanks and narrower bore pipe almost everywhere.
By _very_ careful with unvented hot water cylinders, they can be
very dangerous.
Best installed by a qualified plumber.
>>2. Has anyone got any experience of undertaking a job like this, when they
>>have had little plumbing experience before? What are the problems, etc?
I replaced, and improved, a plumbing system in a
victorian house, all lead plumbing, back boiler in the
kitchen, soon to be converted into a dining room,
scullery converted into a kitchen.
The worst bit was the up heaval, floorboards up
everywhere, holes in ceilings. But it was worth it in
the end.
Common sense is the biggest help, take advice from the
friendly plumbers merchant.
>Children guaranteed to be sick when you've disconnected the mains,
>drained the tank and need a widget at 8.30 pm on a Saturday night. (I
>speak from experience!)
Fortunately I had no children when I did my plumbing, I
started plumbing following a couple of visits from
'professional plumbers' who made a right mess of
everything they touched, it was obvious that anyone with
the tiniest bit of common sense could manage plumbing,
and this was at a time when much plumbing was still being
carried out in lead.
I fitted the, then new, plastic pipes everywhere I could,
in fact these pipes were so new the local water board
took an interest, mine was the first house in the area to
have plastic pipes used for cold water.
It was a doddle.
>Quite seriously, this is the most awkward part of that kind of DIY
>project that has unless you have a very cooperaitve family situation.
>As for the job itself, the principle is very simple (especially with a
>pressurised system). The practialities of getting pipes under
>floorboards, brickwork, concrete, discovering a mixture of existing
>metric and imperial pipe are all more difficult.
If your existing system is still all lead, you will have
to trouble with differing sizes of copper pipes.
You may need a professional plumber to make a connection
between the lead pipe coming into the house and your new
pipe, whatever material you use, it's worth paying
someone to do that part of the job.
Alan
Megan Farr
If your existing pipes are lead you will quite likely get a grant to
have the work done. Also, don't forget to hang on to the lead and
sell it to the local scrappy, together with anything else you take
out. We got something like £40 for our old system (no lead), I'm told
lead fetches more!
Phil Addison
megan...@ukonline.co.uk (Megan Farr) wrote:
> If your existing pipes are lead you will quite likely get a grant to
> have the work done. Also, don't forget to hang on to the lead and
> sell it to the local scrappy, together with anything else you take
> out. We got something like £40 for our old system (no lead), I'm told
> lead fetches more!
And don't forget that once ypu've stripped out all the lead pipe
you can ask the water authority to remove any lead on *their*
side of the stop-tap. I think they they have a duty to do this
but not sure.
--
Phil
Jon Rouse
Alan....@brunel.ac.uk (Alan J Holmes) wrote:
>If your existing system is still all lead, you will have
>to trouble with differing sizes of copper pipes.
>
>You may need a professional plumber to make a connection
>between the lead pipe coming into the house and your new
>pipe, whatever material you use, it's worth paying
>someone to do that part of the job.
Not any more! My plumbers introduced me to lead-lok. Its basically a
compression fitting for lead. They are big chunky things that cost the
earth, but once you've got one you convert the lead to copper and Bob's
your uncle (he is actually).
Nick Nelson
Jon Rouse wrote:
> >You may need a professional plumber to make a connection
> >between the lead pipe coming into the house
>
> Not any more! My plumbers introduced me to lead-lok. Its basically a
> compression fitting for lead. They are big chunky things that cost the
> earth, but once you've got one you convert the lead to copper and Bob's
> your uncle (he is actually).
I think in this application these are fine. But my colleage John Willcocks
may wish to relate the effects (possibly rather graphically) of using them
in hot water environments.
Nick.
Jim Main
In article <4ufheg$p...@morse.ukonline.co.uk>, Megan Farr
<megan...@ukonline.co.uk> writes
>Oh yeah, forgot. Don't buy your supplies at B&Q et al. A connector
>that might cost £2-3 for two will be about 50p at a builders and
>plumbers merchant! I've only bought from DIY shops in emergencies
True for connectors, but copper pipe is often cheaper (around 24 quid
for a pack of 10 3m 15mm pipes) inc vat.. pays to shop around..
--
Jim
Megan Farr
Jim Main <j...@ewcomm.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>True for connectors, but copper pipe is often cheaper (around 24 quid
>for a pack of 10 3m 15mm pipes) inc vat.. pays to shop around..
>--
>Jim
Nooooooo!
I think we were paying just under £2 for that, plus you don't need to
buy 30m!
Simon Muir
In article <320F60...@education.leeds.ac.uk>, Nick Nelson <n.w.nelson
@education.leeds.ac.uk> said this sort of thing:
Oooerrr!
I've only used them a few times but I thought they were brilliant,
especially for the leaky-main-stoptap-garden-one-missing scenario, when
even my Sievert blowlamp couldn't hack it because of the steady drip.
Come on John, what happened?
--
Simon Muir, Bristol, UK "Regional Shopping Centres" are
sim...@muircom.demon.co.uk the retail equivalent of
slash-and-burn agriculture.
Nick Nelson
Simon Muir wrote:
> Come on John, what happened?
I'll relate the story for him.
Having a new heating/HW boiler installed, the plumber had
to use the compression fittings to link the copper parts
of the new installation to the existing (lead) hot water system.
This is apparently because it would have been illegal for him
to solder the lead/copper (which is what I have done many times
in the past). Unfortunately the joint regularly leaked, on one
occasion catastrophically, bringing the kitchen ceiling down.
I think this problem was due to the differential expansion and
contraction of the brass/lead as the hot water was drawn through
the fitting. Lead being rather plastic is unable to recover and
the joint was progressively weakened.
So far as I remember, the plumber eventually bowed to the inevitable
and soldered it up.
Nick.
Simon Muir
In article <4v9n7t$q...@internet.csl.co.uk>, Barrie Walker
<bwa...@csl.co.uk> said this sort of thing:
>
>I didn't do this but I think next time I would try flexible tap connectors to
>halp with the kitchen sink installation. What does anybody else think?
>
I don't recommend the plastic/steel-mesh-reinforced ones. We bought a
very expensive mixer tap with these on. Installation was a doddle,
however four years later, the hot pipe burst - the inside had gone
cheese-like and crumbled away (I assume from the effects of limescale).
The manufacturers refused to acknowledge a fault, and after futile
attempts to at least get a spare part (I gave up on compensation early
on), I ended up soldering 8mm onto the brass studs at the tap end.
I've done a couple of other sinks, and 8mm is quite adequate if the run
is short (from the tap to the fixed 15mm). It's as easy to connect as
flexible couplings, and *much* safer!
Wookey
bwa...@csl.co.uk (Barrie Walker) wrote:
>I didn't do this but I think next time I would try flexible tap connectors to
>halp with the kitchen sink installation. What does anybody else think?
Use Hep20 for this bit, even if not for the rest. Makes life very civilized.
Jon Rouse
bwa...@csl.co.uk (Barrie Walker) wrote:
> apparently 11/12 years ago there was
>a copper shortage so they made the pipe wall thinner (so they would burst more
>easily??? ).
>
Don't tell me, I was doing an extension to the plumbing at the weekend
and tried to bend a piece of pipe, only to find it was a bit of the
hard-tempered stuff theyimported during the YIM strike, and now I've
broken my good bending spring.
Bother.
John Schmitt
Jon Rouse wrote:
> Don't tell me, I was doing an extension to the plumbing at the weekend
> and tried to bend a piece of pipe, only to find it was a bit of the
> hard-tempered stuff theyimported during the YIM strike, and now I've
> broken my good bending spring.
>
> Bother.
You should find that if you heat the pipe up till it goes a bit dull on
the surface it will bend easily as it should be annealed. The dulling
indicates oxidation, and IIRC is a good guide to annealing temperature.
Sorry, but that will do nothing for your spring :-(
--
John Schmitt
Disclaimers Apply.
An Englishman in New York? No, an American in London.
Alan J Holmes
In article <320e5ff5...@news.demon.co.uk>,
But which stop tap are you refering to, the one which is yours,
or the one which the company have access to.
Have set the followup to include me, cos I don't always read this
group.
Alan
Jon Rouse
John Schmitt <Joh...@mdx.ac.uk> wrote:
>You should find that if you heat the pipe up till it goes a bit dull on
>the surface it will bend easily as it should be annealed. The dulling
>indicates oxidation, and IIRC is a good guide to annealing temperature.
>Sorry, but that will do nothing for your spring :-(
Oh yes, we did all that at the time, its just that I hadn't realised I'd
got any left in my spares box.
Has anybosy got any uses for broken bending springs, I seem to be
colleting those as well :-(
Phil Addison
I suggest you ring your local water supplier to ask about this.
In my area there is a 4" pipe running along the road and a lead
pipe running into my house. The stop-tap, the only one I beleive,
is under my porch floor. When I rang them 18 months ago they said
they would replace the lead pipe and to apply again once I had
removed all the lead inside. I've still got a short piece of lead
to remove so haven't taken them up on this yet.
--
Phil