cutting veneered MDF - any gotchas

[Jim K]

as per title! ;>)

Cheers
Jim K

[The Natural Philosopher]

none beyond recommending that you plane or rout the edge as otherwise
the veneer splinters slightly,.

And the usual health warnings about MDF dust which is truly vile.



--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.

[John Rumm]

On 04/04/2012 12:30, Jim K wrote:

> as per title! ;>)

If cutting with a circular saw, cut from the back of the side that will
be on show...


--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

[Jim K]

On Wed, 04 Apr 2012 13:33:49 +0100, John Rumm
<see.my.s...@nowhere.null> wrote:

> On 04/04/2012 12:30, Jim K wrote:
>
>> as per title! ;>)
>
> If cutting with a circular saw, cut from the back of the side that will
> be on show...

a la kitchen worktop method - gotcha!

I've not experiented but what works best - a saw set to just over the
thickness of the wood or set to significantly over tghe thickness of wood?

Cheers
Jim K

[Tim Lamb]

In message <op.wb8qs...@sbseee.lan>, Jim K <jk98...@gmail.com>
writes

If there are several teeth in contact with the work, I doubt it matters.
For *thin* material I have always adjusted the depth of cut to be just
sufficient.

If it is particularly important, you could cramp a scrap piece of wood
to the work and cut both.

regards

--
Tim Lamb

[harry]

On Apr 4, 1:40 pm, "Jim K" <jk989...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 04 Apr 2012 13:33:49 +0100, John Rumm
>

> <see.my.signat...@nowhere.null> wrote:
> > On 04/04/2012 12:30, Jim K wrote:
>
> >> as per title! ;>)
>
> > If cutting with a circular saw, cut from the back of the side that will
> > be on show...
>
> a la kitchen worktop method - gotcha!
>
> I've not experiented but what works best - a saw set to just over the
> thickness of the wood or set to significantly over tghe thickness of wood?
>
> Cheers
> Jim K

If veneered on both sides you need to cut the veneer accurately with a
Stanley knife & make the saw cut just on the "waste" side.
Prevents it from splintering off.
Important esp. when cutting across the grain. Less so when cutting
down the grain.

[Mike Clarke]

On Wed, 4 Apr 2012 15:19:03 +0100
Tim Lamb <t...@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> If it is particularly important, you could cramp a scrap piece of
> wood to the work and cut both.

Using a sawboard <http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Sawboard>
helps to reduce splintering on the exit side too.

--
Mike Clarke

[NT]

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Saw#Laminates

[newshound]

+1.

There's also the "plywood" trick of scoring with a Stanley knife through
the top layer along the final dimension line, and trying to make sure
you keep the saw the other side of it. Then finish off with a plane or
whatever. A good sharp saw blade also helps.

[John Rumm]

On 04/04/2012 15:28, harry wrote:
> On Apr 4, 1:40 pm, "Jim K"<jk989...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 04 Apr 2012 13:33:49 +0100, John Rumm
>>
>> <see.my.signat...@nowhere.null> wrote:
>>> On 04/04/2012 12:30, Jim K wrote:
>>
>>>> as per title! ;>)
>>
>>> If cutting with a circular saw, cut from the back of the side that will
>>> be on show...
>>
>> a la kitchen worktop method - gotcha!
>>
>> I've not experiented but what works best - a saw set to just over the
>> thickness of the wood or set to significantly over tghe thickness of wood?
>>
>> Cheers
>> Jim K
>
>
> If veneered on both sides you need to cut the veneer accurately with a

> Stanley knife& make the saw cut just on the "waste" side.

> Prevents it from splintering off.
> Important esp. when cutting across the grain. Less so when cutting
> down the grain.

Another way of doing this is to make a preparatory cut with the blade
set to just a mm or depth - it scores a shallow kerf without splinters
(since the exit angle of the blade at that depth is practically
horizontal).

Then go back to the start of the cut again, and cut with the blade set
deep enough to make the through cut.

(it copies the action of some of the posh panel saws that have secondary
small scoring circular saw blade).

[Jim K]

is lacking on detail?

Jim K

[Jim K]

that's an interesting approach...

Presumably one could combine both methods in two passes from the same side
with same setup & differing depths - one shallow to clean cut the upper
veneer, then a cut set "a lot" deeper to clean cut the lower face? -
sounds worth a demo
cheers all

Jim K

[NT]

On Apr 4, 10:18 pm, "Jim K" <jk989...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 04 Apr 2012 17:02:16 +0100, NT <meow2...@care2.com> wrote:
> > On Apr 4, 12:30 pm, "Jim K" <jk989...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> as per title! ;>)
>
> >> Cheers
> >> Jim K
>
> >http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Saw#Laminates
>
> is lacking on detail?
>
> Jim K

What do you think could be added?

NT

[Bolted]

The best way with a circular saw is a very shallow cut, but in reverse
so the blades are cutting down and in to the top face to reduce tear-
out which does mimic the scoring blade. And then a full depth (plus
some) cut with the board on top of a spoil board.

[Rod Speed]

NT wrote
> Jim K <jk989...@gmail.com> wrote
>> NT <meow2...@care2.com> wrote

>>> Jim K <jk989...@gmail.com> wrote

>>>> as per title! ;>)

>>> http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Saw#Laminates

>> is lacking on detail?

> What do you think could be added?

That approach of first cutting just into the MDF and then
again with the blade fully thru the whole thing for starters.

[John Rumm]

Yup, that is what I was trying to say ;-)

Both cuts from the same side. The first very shallow to cut the top of
the board where you would normally get the breakout, and then the
"normal" cut.

> - sounds worth a demo
> cheers all
>
> Jim K

[John Rumm]

I think partly that article tries to cover too much ground... as a
summary of saw types its ok, but to start getting into sawing techniques
is difficult since each type of saw has its own characteristics, so it
becomes difficult to give meaningful advice.

E.g. cutting a laminate board - do you put the finish side top or
bottom? Well it depends on the type of saw - with a hardpoint jack saw,
on top, with a circular saw or jigsaw then bottom. Do you plane down to
a line? On veneered real wood, yes; chipboard, no etc.

I would suggest splitting it into a "about saws" type of article - lists
them all, with bullet points covering main features and use (i.e. pretty
much what is there at the start of the article).

For the techniques bit, they really need to be in individual articles
applicable to the saw type - where handsaws can perhaps be covered in
one article, then another for circular etc.

Might be worth importing the power tool FAQ articles into the wiki and
use some of those for the intro on the tool, then add the expansion of
techniques. For example the circular saw entry does already have some
info on uses:

http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/powertools/circularsaw.htm

[stuart noble]

A lot depends on the adhesion of the veneer. It needs to be 100% stuck
where the cut comes and IME it isn't always

[NT]

On Apr 5, 4:00 am, John Rumm <see.my.signat...@nowhere.null> wrote:
> On 04/04/2012 23:43, NT wrote:
>
> > On Apr 4, 10:18 pm, "Jim K"<jk989...@gmail.com>  wrote:
> >> On Wed, 04 Apr 2012 17:02:16 +0100, NT<meow2...@care2.com>  wrote:
> >>> On Apr 4, 12:30 pm, "Jim K"<jk989...@gmail.com>  wrote:
> >>>> as per title! ;>)
>
> >>>> Cheers
> >>>> Jim K
>
> >>>http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Saw#Laminates
>
> >> is lacking on detail?
>
> >> Jim K
>
> > What do you think could be added?
>
> I think partly that article tries to cover too much ground... as a
> summary of saw types its ok, but to start getting into sawing techniques
> is difficult since each type of saw has its own characteristics, so it
> becomes difficult to give meaningful advice.
>
> E.g. cutting a laminate board - do you put the finish side top or
> bottom? Well it depends on the type of saw - with a hardpoint jack saw,
> on top, with a circular saw or jigsaw then bottom.

I'll try reword it for better clarity - one simple set of words can
cover it all I think.

> Do you plane down to
> a line? On veneered real wood, yes; chipboard, no etc.

FWIW I've used that approach successfully with melamine on chipboard
before. The trick is to keep the plane at an angle so the laminate is
always pushed slightly into the chip core. Of course its quicker to
use a good clean cutting saw, but I didnt have one with me at the
time. And many diyers never have one, so its a useful method.

> I would suggest splitting it into a "about saws" type of article - lists
> them all, with bullet points covering main features and use (i.e. pretty
> much what is there at the start of the article).
>
> For the techniques bit, they really need to be in individual articles
> applicable to the saw type - where handsaws can perhaps be covered in
> one article, then another for circular etc.

I like the idea of separate articles for individual saw types. I dont
see a need to remove anything from the eixsting article though. One
can simply copy into a new article (or not) and develop it much
further.

I've been considering a separate article on bandsaws, I just dont have
enough downtime to do one thankfully.

> Might be worth importing the power tool FAQ articles into the wiki and
> use some of those for the intro on the tool, then add the expansion of
> techniques. For example the circular saw entry does already have some
> info on uses:
>
> http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/powertools/circularsaw.htm

BTW, whats the name of the pullsaw in the wedged door article?


NT

[Rod Speed]

NT wrote
> John Rumm <see.my.signat...@nowhere.null> wrote

>> NT wrote
>>> Jim K <jk989...@gmail.com> wrote
>>>> NT<meow2...@care2.com> wrote

>>>>> Jim K <jk989...@gmail.com> wrote

>>>>>> as per title! ;>)

>>>>> http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Saw#Laminates

>>>> is lacking on detail?

>>> What do you think could be added?

>> I think partly that article tries to cover too much ground... as a
>> summary of saw types its ok, but to start getting into sawing
>> techniques is difficult since each type of saw has its own
>> characteristics, so it becomes difficult to give meaningful advice.

>> E.g. cutting a laminate board - do you put the finish side top or
>> bottom? Well it depends on the type of saw - with a hardpoint
>> jack saw, on top, with a circular saw or jigsaw then bottom.

> I'll try reword it for better clarity - one simple set of words can
> cover it all I think.

>> Do you plane down to a line? On veneered real wood, yes; chipboard, no etc.

> FWIW I've used that approach successfully with melamine on
> chipboard before. The trick is to keep the plane at an angle so
> the laminate is always pushed slightly into the chip core.

Trouble is that that isnt really feasible with the double sided MDF.

[NT]

Now included


NT

[Tim W]

On 04/04/2012 23:53, Bolted wrote:
>
>
> (it copies the action of some of the posh panel saws that have secondary
> small scoring circular saw blade).
> The best way with a circular saw is a very shallow cut, but in reverse
> so the blades are cutting down and in to the top face to reduce tear-
> out which does mimic the scoring blade. And then a full depth (plus
> some) cut with the board on top of a spoil board.
>

It sounds like it would work but I wouold advise extreme caution when
feeding in the wrong direction like that. I presume that is what you
mean, remove the riving knife and push the circular saw backwards across
the board?

Tim W

[Nick Odell]

On Thu, 5 Apr 2012 02:47:16 -0700 (PDT), NT <meow...@care2.com>
wrote:

>BTW, whats the name of the pullsaw in the wedged door article?
>

I was sitting very quiet hoping somebody might ask that question. I'm
glad it's not just me, then.

Nick

[stuart noble]

And what do you do about the guard? How many hands does one have?

[dennis@home]

"stuart noble" <stuart...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:3Qefr.85049$lq1....@fx18.am4...

> And what do you do about the guard? How many hands does one have?

Its easy to cut veneered board..
just use a saw board and score along the edge of the saw board with a sharp
Stanley knife before you use the saw.

[NT]

What obscure requirement do you have that makes it unfeasible?


NT

[John Rumm]

On 05/04/2012 10:47, NT wrote:

> BTW, whats the name of the pullsaw in the wedged door article?

That's an Azebiki:

http://www.axminster.co.uk/ice-bear-japanese-azebiki-panel-saw-prod20285/

[Jim K]

to view both sides & edges of veneer intact without breakout caused by
sawing or planing?

Jim K

[NT]

not hard to do, using a plane.


NT

[John Rumm]

OK just tried it and took some pics.

Was using my table saw, but the same principles apply regardless of
circular saw type:

Early days of an article here:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Circular_saw_techniques

[Rod Speed]

NT wrote

Its not an obscure requirement to cut double sided MDF.

Maybe I am misunderstanding what you mean about the angle of the plane,
but I cant see how you can angle the plane so that the laminate is pushed
into the chip core with both layers of laminate with double sided MDF.

[Rod Speed]

Then you need to spell out how to do that, given that its not obvious to either of us.

[JacobAlexander]

I

kl. 14:40:05 UTC+2 onsdag 4. april 2012 skrev Jim K følgende:
> On Wed, 04 Apr 2012 13:33:49 +0100, John Rumm

> <see.my.s...@nowhere.null> wrote:

>
> > On 04/04/2012 12:30, Jim K wrote:
> >
> >> as per title! ;>)
> >

> > If cutting with a circular saw, cut from the back of the side that will
> > be on show...
>
> a la kitchen worktop method - gotcha!
>
> I've not experiented but what works best - a saw set to just over the
> thickness of the wood or set to significantly over tghe thickness of wood?
>
> Cheers
> Jim K

If you set your saw to exactly match the tickness off whatever you are cutting,the cut will be slower and the saw harder to push.But the cutting edge will be smoother.

[Rod Speed]

JacobAlexander wrote
> Jim K wrote
>> John Rumm <see.my.s...@nowhere.null> wrote

>>> Jim K wrote

>>>> as per title! ;>)

>>> If cutting with a circular saw, cut from the
>>> back of the side that will be on show...

>> a la kitchen worktop method - gotcha!

>> I've not experiented but what works best - a saw set to just over the
>> thickness of the wood or set to significantly over tghe thickness of wood?

> If you set your saw to exactly match the tickness off
> whatever you are cutting,the cut will be slower and the
> saw harder to push.But the cutting edge will be smoother.

Maybe that is essentially the same as the double cut approach,
particularly when you ensure that the blade cuts into the MDF
with double sided MDF.

[NT]

Yes... but I dont know how to describe it without diagrams, and am not
about to spend the tme to draw a few. I can try in words, but am not
optimistic it'll be clear.

When planing single sided, ie when one laminate side matters and the
other doesnt, the plane is held flat as usual, but if the valued
veneer is on the right of the sheet, the front of the plane is moved
over to the left, and the rear over to the right somewhat. The result
is a flat square edge with no damage to the valued veneer.

When planing to save both veneers, one has to also angle the plane
slightly another way. When planing the right edge, as well as the skew
mentioned above one also raises the left side of the plane just
slightly. When planing the left edge one raises the right. At this
intermediate point in the process, the result is 2 cleanly planed
veneer edges but the core material between is raised a bit in the
middle. The final step is then to use the plane flat & level to take
off all the excess core material bar a small fraction of a mm - the
plane blade must not reach the veneer edges in this last operation.

I'm not sure if thats clear enough or not.


NT

[Rod Speed]

That one has always been obvious, at least to me.

> the plane is held flat as usual, but if the valued veneer is
> on the right of the sheet, the front of the plane is moved
> over to the left, and the rear over to the right somewhat. The
> result is a flat square edge with no damage to the valued veneer.

> When planing to save both veneers, one has to also angle the plane
> slightly another way. When planing the right edge, as well as the skew
> mentioned above one also raises the left side of the plane just
> slightly. When planing the left edge one raises the right.

OK, you could have just said you have to plane each side separately.

> At this intermediate point in the process, the result is 2 cleanly planed
> veneer edges but the core material between is raised a bit in the middle.

> The final step is then to use the plane flat & level to take off
> all the excess core material bar a small fraction of a mm - the
> plane blade must not reach the veneer edges in this last operation.

> I'm not sure if thats clear enough or not.

Sure, its fine now.

[The Medway Handyman]

On 04/04/2012 16:44, Mike Clarke wrote:
> On Wed, 4 Apr 2012 15:19:03 +0100
> Tim Lamb<t...@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> If it is particularly important, you could cramp a scrap piece of
>> wood to the work and cut both.
>
> Using a sawboard<http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Sawboard>
> helps to reduce splintering on the exit side too.
>
+100%


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

[The Medway Handyman]

On 05/04/2012 11:05, Tim W wrote:

Many modern circ saws don't have a riving knife, my AEG doesn't.

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Power+Tools/Circular+Saws/AEG+KS66+184mm+Circular+Saw+240V/d40/sd2767/p22548

[The Medway Handyman]

On 04/04/2012 16:44, Mike Clarke wrote:
> On Wed, 4 Apr 2012 15:19:03 +0100
> Tim Lamb<t...@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> If it is particularly important, you could cramp a scrap piece of
>> wood to the work and cut both.
>
> Using a sawboard<http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Sawboard>
> helps to reduce splintering on the exit side too.
>

Masking tape reduces the break out significantly and makes it easier to
see the pencil line.

[dennis@home]

"NT" <meow...@care2.com> wrote in message
news:27876a00-6d55-49d9...@36g2000yqi.googlegroups.com...

> When planing to save both veneers, one has to also angle the plane
> slightly another way. When planing the right edge, as well as the skew
> mentioned above one also raises the left side of the plane just
> slightly. When planing the left edge one raises the right. At this
> intermediate point in the process, the result is 2 cleanly planed
> veneer edges but the core material between is raised a bit in the
> middle. The final step is then to use the plane flat & level to take
> off all the excess core material bar a small fraction of a mm - the
> plane blade must not reach the veneer edges in this last operation.
>
> I'm not sure if thats clear enough or not.

That is what

http://www.toolstoday.com/p-5638-cnc-compression-spiral-bits-for-mdflaminate-2-flute.aspx

does by the looks of it.
>
>
> NT

[John Rumm]

Indeed, kind of like a spiral up cut and spiral down cut joined in the
middle!