riello burner G7Q intermittently stops

[jim]

Is there a diagnostic guide to the operation of Riello (oil) burners
please?

ie What to listen for, What to look for, Exhaust odour etc?

The burner is a Riello G7Q in a Boulter Camray Quartet oil CH boiler.

A technical manual for the (?similar) G5 series is at:

http://www.rielloburners.co.uk/lumo/upload_documents/riello_r40g5technicalmanual.pdf

This covers 'What's where? & Where to adjust' mechanically but what I
would really like to obtain is a 'feel' for what is going on when the
burner goes awry.

In the same way that I have a feel for what is happening when a petrol
car engine is not running properly.

The boiler is serviced at least annually but it can go into one of
several types of 'misfiring mode' without apparent warning. This
makes it chancy to go away in winter.

TIA for any pointers.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Mine has always been that way - about one firing in 100 doesnt work and
it locks up.

I assume a sooty sensor or something.

I've never had an oil boiler that didn't at some point do that.


--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.

[Jim K]

On Sun, 08 Apr 2012 21:24:20 +0100, jim <jim_in...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> hen the
> burner goes awry.

sorry no
- but describing the symptoms may get you a fair way down the road?

Jim K

[jim]

On Apr 8, 9:38 pm, "Jim K" <jk989...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 08 Apr 2012 21:24:20 +0100, jim <jim_in_sus...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > hen the
> > burner goes awry.
>
> sorry no
> - but describing the symptoms may get you a fair way down the road?
>
> Jim K

eg at the moment the riello burner fan (air blower) appears to be
running all the time
(at least that's what it sounds like and feels like when you put your
hand on the riello unit),
but outside the house the sound of the exhaust suggests that the
riello ignition is stopping for a
varying no of seconds (say 5 secs to 20 secs) then reignites. It then
runs for 30 secs to
several minutes before repeating the pattern.

The sound is the odd thing. Inside the house (beside the boiler) it
sounds & feels like a sewing m/c,
but outdoors, (listening to the balanced flue) it simply isn't.

That's what's spurred the present query.

Previously a frequent fault has been for it constantly try to ignite,
fail, shut down, then
immediately try to restart.

TIA for comments

[Jim K]

On Sun, 08 Apr 2012 22:03:22 +0100, jim <jim_in...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> On Apr 8, 9:38 pm, "Jim K" <jk989...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 08 Apr 2012 21:24:20 +0100, jim <jim_in_sus...@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > hen the
>> > burner goes awry.
>>
>> sorry no
>> - but describing the symptoms may get you a fair way down the road?
>>
>> Jim K
>
> eg at the moment the riello burner fan (air blower) appears to be
> running all the time
> (at least that's what it sounds like and feels like when you put your
> hand on the riello unit),
> but outside the house the sound of the exhaust suggests that the
> riello ignition is stopping for a
> varying no of seconds (say 5 secs to 20 secs) then reignites. It then
> runs for 30 secs to
> several minutes before repeating the pattern.

ignition is a cycle - once lit it should burn until it is switched off
it sounds like yours is going out and then being relit..

> The sound is the odd thing. Inside the house (beside the boiler) it
> sounds & feels like a sewing m/c,
> but outdoors, (listening to the balanced flue) it simply isn't.

isn't what??

>
> That's what's spurred the present query.
>
> Previously a frequent fault has been for it constantly try to ignite,
> fail, shut down, then
> immediately try to restart.

thats standard "somethings borked" mode - does it eventually sulk and
illuminate the big red "lock out" button?


So far sounds like fuel problem - sewing machine noises?? shagged/on way
pump failing to keep pressure high enough for continuous burn? or tank
filter/in line filters gunged up creating too much restriction for
constant running but enough for occasional start stop start etc running?

What level oil in tank? did it get pretty low before refilling last time?
was it running when tank filled?

Jim K

[geoff]

In message
<12f8c3ef-02aa-4036...@l4g2000vbt.googlegroups.com>, jim
<jim_in...@hotmail.com> writes

>Is there a diagnostic guide to the operation of Riello (oil) burners
>please?
>

You need to wait for cynic to turn up, he's the expert in that field


--
geoff

[Dave Liquorice]

On Sun, 08 Apr 2012 21:37:02 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

>> The boiler is serviced at least annually but it can go into one of
>> several types of 'misfiring mode' without apparent warning. This
>> makes it chancy to go away in winter.
>

> Mine has always been that way - about one firing in 100 doesnt work and
> it locks up.

Ours has only locked out twice, without warning, in about 12 years of
use. One was down to a sooted up sensor, quick clean and it was back
in service in less than an hour. The other was initially due to
frozen water in a low point in the oil line, got that out but doing
so disturbed a load of kack in the pipe that blocked the fire valve.
Sorting that lot took a several hours and I don't recomend working on
oil lines that are buried under a foot of snow with outside temps
several degress below freezing...

As to the starting sequence:

Fan/pump starts for a few seconds
> spark ignition fires (slight buzz)
> max 10s to light > no flame > lock out > fan stops
> ignition (maybe a bit of whump or change in the roar)
> no flame detection after 10s > lock out > fan stops
> on flame detection spark stops
> Burner runs

Timings approximate.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Dave Liquorice]

On Sun, 08 Apr 2012 22:17:41 +0100, Jim K wrote:

> So far sounds like fuel problem - sewing machine noises?? shagged/on way
> pump failing to keep pressure high enough for continuous burn? or tank
> filter/in line filters gunged up creating too much restriction for
> constant running but enough for occasional start stop start etc running?
>
> What level oil in tank? did it get pretty low before refilling last time?
> was it running when tank filled?
>
> Jim K

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Jim K]

come again?

Jim K

[harry]

On Apr 8, 9:24 pm, jim <jim_in_sus...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Is there a diagnostic guide to the operation of Riello (oil) burners
> please?
>
> ie What to listen for, What to look for, Exhaust odour etc?
>
> The burner is a Riello G7Q in a Boulter Camray Quartet oil CH boiler.
>
> A technical manual for the (?similar) G5 series is at:
>

> http://www.rielloburners.co.uk/lumo/upload_documents/riello_r40g5tech...

>
> This covers 'What's where? & Where to adjust' mechanically but what I
> would really like to obtain is a 'feel' for what is going on when the
> burner goes awry.
>
> In the same way that I have a feel for what is happening when a petrol
> car engine is not running properly.
>
> The boiler is serviced at least annually but it can go into one of
> several types of 'misfiring mode' without apparent warning.  This
> makes it chancy to go away in winter.
>
> TIA for any pointers.

I assume you mean it goes to lockout. ie you have to press the reset
button?
The boiler goes to lock out if it fails to pass one of the tests on
the startup sequence.
To be absolutely certain of the fault you have to observe when it
happens in the startup sequnce, so intermittant faults are a problem.

The various test devices are connected to the control box (usually has
the reset button on it.)

Tests are fan running (pressure switch) oil pressure, ignition
(photocell).

The likeliest one is photocell (dirty) just pulls out usually.
But it could be the ignitor circuit, (loose connection LV orHV) dirty
spark plug

The burner has a shutdown sequnce too, occasionally can lockout on
this.

If the problem is intermittant & you can't observe when it happens,
all you can do is clean all the business end of the burner up and look
for loose connections. Usually the problem eventually manifests
itself.

If there is a lot of soot/carbon, it likely needs a new oil jet, the
fuel is not atomising correctly. But there is where you need you flue
gas analyser to set it up.
You can go by flame colour, but that is inexact, particularly if you
don't know the correct colour anyway.

But first of all, make sure there is no water in the bottom of the oil
tank and the oil filter in the oil pipe line is not blocked.
Some oil burners have a filter in the burner too.

If the oil tank is below the burner (unusual), you can get problems
with air locks in the oil pipeline esp as the fuel level gets low.

[harry]

Aha. That sounds as though the photocell is not seeing the flame.
Check if it ignites, if so the problem is with the PC.
If not, the problem is with the ignition. (eg no spark or spark plug
carboned up)

[Jim K]

except it can and does run for upto "several" minutes....

Jim K

[Jim K]

various test devices?

> Tests are fan running (pressure switch) oil pressure, ignition
> (photocell).
>
> The likeliest one is photocell (dirty) just pulls out usually.
> But it could be the ignitor circuit, (loose connection LV orHV) dirty
> spark plug

except it will fire for several minutes.....

> The burner has a shutdown sequnce too, occasionally can lockout on
> this.
>
> If the problem is intermittant & you can't observe when it happens,
> all you can do is clean all the business end of the burner up and look
> for loose connections. Usually the problem eventually manifests
> itself.
>
> If there is a lot of soot/carbon, it likely needs a new oil jet, the
> fuel is not atomising correctly. But there is where you need you flue
> gas analyser to set it up.

unless you get the exact same spec jet and just replace it - it won;t be
far out til next service

> You can go by flame colour, but that is inexact, particularly if you
> don't know the correct colour anyway.
>
> But first of all, make sure there is no water in the bottom of the oil
> tank

how?

> and the oil filter in the oil pipe line is not blocked.
> Some oil burners have a filter in the burner too.
>
> If the oil tank is below the burner (unusual), you can get problems
> with air locks in the oil pipeline esp as the fuel level gets low.

do you have an oil burner?

Jim K

[Michael Chare]

On 08/04/2012 22:03, jim wrote:

>
> The sound is the odd thing. Inside the house (beside the boiler) it

> sounds& feels like a sewing m/c,

So if you are in you house and the boiler keeps running with a
continuous sound I am tempted to say that it is OK.

> but outdoors, (listening to the balanced flue) it simply isn't.
>
> That's what's spurred the present query.
>

I would look for any obstructions in the flue.

> Previously a frequent fault has been for it constantly try to ignite,
> fail, shut down, then
> immediately try to restart.

I would expect the boiler to lock out if it did not ignite. If it does
not do this I would be suspicious of the control box.

If the boiler runs unevenly, then I would suspect an oil supply problem.

An inexpensive oil pressure gauge might well show a fluctuating
pressure. In which case it might be the pump, maybe water in the oil,
blocked pipe or blocked filter. Paper filters if you have them, need to
be changed regularly (every year or two).


--
Michael Chare

[Michael Chare]

On 09/04/2012 09:40, Jim K wrote:
> On Mon, 09 Apr 2012 08:16:29 +0100, harry <harol...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> But first of all, make sure there is no water in the bottom of the oil
>> tank
>
> how?
>

Drain some off into a bottle, either at the exit to the tank or at the
boiler end if it is at a lower level.

>> and the oil filter in the oil pipe line is not blocked.
>> Some oil burners have a filter in the burner too.
>>
>> If the oil tank is below the burner (unusual), you can get problems
>> with air locks in the oil pipeline esp as the fuel level gets low.
>

AIUI air can ingress via the flexible pipe at the boiler end, if the
pipe is not changed regularly.


--
Michael Chare

[Jim K]

On Mon, 09 Apr 2012 13:41:08 +0100, Michael Chare
<mUNDERSCOREnews@charedotorgdotuk> wrote:

> On 09/04/2012 09:40, Jim K wrote:
>> On Mon, 09 Apr 2012 08:16:29 +0100, harry <harol...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> But first of all, make sure there is no water in the bottom of the oil
>>> tank
>>
>> how?
>>
>
> Drain some off into a bottle, either at the exit to the tank or at the
> boiler end if it is at a lower level.

fine if your valves are in order...
there are also some reactive things you attach to the end of a
stick/dipping pole and they change colour to show level of water in base -
Harry will doubtless re-confirm when he's caught up...

>>> and the oil filter in the oil pipe line is not blocked.
>>> Some oil burners have a filter in the burner too.
>>>
>>> If the oil tank is below the burner (unusual), you can get problems
>>> with air locks in the oil pipeline esp as the fuel level gets low.
>>
>
> AIUI air can ingress via the flexible pipe at the boiler end, if the
> pipe is not changed regularly.

I've been told that before - though quite how that happens with a gravity
fed liquid supply system I could never fathom - OK oil may ooze out yes,
but air in why/how???

Jim K

Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

[The Natural Philosopher]

Jim that may be fuel starvation and flameout.

Clean all the filters in the oil line.

[Michael Chare]

On 09/04/2012 13:52, Jim K wrote:
> On Mon, 09 Apr 2012 13:41:08 +0100, Michael Chare
> <mUNDERSCOREnews@charedotorgdotuk> wrote:
>
>> On 09/04/2012 09:40, Jim K wrote:
>>> On Mon, 09 Apr 2012 08:16:29 +0100, harry <harol...@aol.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> But first of all, make sure there is no water in the bottom of the oil
>>>> tank
>>>
>>> how?
>>>
>>
>> Drain some off into a bottle, either at the exit to the tank or at the
>> boiler end if it is at a lower level.
>
> fine if your valves are in order...

If they are not that would be something I would fix ASAP!

>> AIUI air can ingress via the flexible pipe at the boiler end, if the
>> pipe is not changed regularly.
>
> I've been told that before - though quite how that happens with a
> gravity fed liquid supply system I could never fathom - OK oil may ooze
> out yes, but air in why/how???
>

Presumably the pipes become porous, and when the pump is running the
pressure in the pipe near the pump is less that atmospheric. I was once
suspicious that I had the problem.

The manual for my Camray 50 70 boiler does contain a trouble shooting
guide. The OP could download some boiler manuals that might help him.





--
Michael Chare

[jim]

On Apr 8, 10:17 pm, "Jim K" <jk989...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 08 Apr 2012 21:24:20 +0100, jim <jim_in_sus...@hotmail.com>
> >> wrote:

> >> > then the

> >> > burner goes awry.
>
> >> sorry no
> >> - but describing the symptoms may get you a fair way down the road?

many thanks for all the responses: uk.d-i-y wins again!

> > sounds & feels like a sewing m/c,
> > but outdoors, (listening to the balanced flue) it simply isn't.
>
> isn't what??

sounding like a sewing m/c.

long ago the aim of the first car tuning expert I ever knew was always
to make an
engine 'run like a sewing m/c'.

I've had another at the riello & a good scrubbing of the flame sensor
with a long
art brush soaked in surgical spirit did the trick.

runs like a sewing m/c now!

many thanks.

[Dave Liquorice]

On Mon, 09 Apr 2012 09:40:24 +0100, Jim K wrote:

>> But first of all, make sure there is no water in the bottom of the
oil
>> tank
>
> how?

Dip it. You can get some gunk you spread on the end of a stick that
changes colour when it gets wet. When our tank was dipped like this
the water level was up to the level of the outlet. Siphoned out
several gallons of water and also fitted a glass bowl fuel filter. So
if water starts to come out of the tank again(*) it will be caught
and visible in the bowl instead of finding a low point in the feed
and freezing...

>> If the oil tank is below the burner (unusual), you can get
problems
>> with air locks in the oil pipeline esp as the fuel level gets low.
>
> do you have an oil burner?

Shouldn't get an air lock in normal use, most pumps have a little bit
of "lift". Oil level in tank lower or at same level as burner can
make priming the system interesting. When the oil is low here it's
only just above the height of the burners oil inlet.

(*) Water will build up overtime, either due to condensation inside
the tank or rain/snow finding it's way past the filler cap or vent.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Dave Liquorice]

On Mon, 09 Apr 2012 16:16:26 +0100, Michael Chare wrote:

> Presumably the pipes become porous, and when the pump is running the
> pressure in the pipe near the pump is less that atmospheric.

And air molecules being much smaller than oil ones will get through
smaller holes...

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Jim K]

On Mon, 09 Apr 2012 23:14:30 +0100, Dave Liquorice
<allsortsn...@howhill.co.uk> wrote:

> On Mon, 09 Apr 2012 16:16:26 +0100, Michael Chare wrote:
>
>> Presumably the pipes become porous, and when the pump is running the
>> pressure in the pipe near the pump is less that atmospheric.

how much less?
the oil tank level is generally above burner level & the oil is naturally
under atmospheric pressure too....

> And air molecules being much smaller than oil ones will get through
> smaller holes...

Holes from....?
How much pressure?

My old camray had a return pipe too - what for?

Jim K

[Michael Chare]

If the level of the oil in the tank can fall below the burner it is
normal to use a two pipe system.


--
Michael Chare

[Jim K]

why?

Jim K

[geoff]

In message <op.wcho1...@sbseee.lan>, Jim K <jk98...@gmail.com>
writes

>> If the oil tank is below the burner (unusual), you can get problems
>> with air locks in the oil pipeline esp as the fuel level gets low.
>
>do you have an oil burner?

Of course he doesn't, he's just trying to sound like he has a clue

... which he doesn't

--
geoff

[harry]

On Apr 9, 9:40 am, "Jim K" <jk989...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Jim K- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

If your tank has been correctly installed, it will have a slight
slope and a valve at the bottom at each end.
The lower end valve is opened to check for presence of and draining
out any water.
The higher end is connected to the oil pipe. However if the drain
isn't checked now and then, water can accumulated until it gets to the
oil pipe outlet & then you have a problem.

[harry]

On Apr 9, 1:52 pm, "Jim K" <jk989...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 09 Apr 2012 13:41:08 +0100, Michael Chare
>
> <mUNDERSCOREnews@charedotorgdotuk> wrote:
> > On 09/04/2012 09:40, Jim K wrote:

> >> On Mon, 09 Apr 2012 08:16:29 +0100, harry <haroldhr...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >>> But first of all, make sure there is no water in the bottom of the oil
> >>> tank
>
> >> how?
>
> > Drain some off into a bottle, either at the exit to the tank or at the
> > boiler end if it is at a lower level.
>
> fine if your valves are in order...
> there are also some reactive things you attach to the end of a
> stick/dipping pole and they change colour to show level of water in base -
> Harry will doubtless re-confirm when he's caught up...
>
> >>> and the oil filter in the oil pipe line is not blocked.
> >>> Some oil burners have a filter in the burner too.
>
> >>> If the oil tank is below the burner (unusual), you can get problems
> >>> with air locks in the oil pipeline esp as the fuel level gets low.
>
> > AIUI air can ingress via the flexible pipe at the boiler end, if the
> > pipe is not changed regularly.
>
> I've been told that before - though quite how that happens with a gravity
> fed liquid supply system I could never fathom - OK oil may ooze out yes,
> but air in why/how???
>
> Jim K
>
> Using Opera's revolutionary email client:http://www.opera.com/mail/

Yes you can get test papers to check for dissolved water in fuel. Not
usually neccessary in this sort of thing, dissolved water is almost
certain to be present anyway.
They are used for Avgas, jet fuel & so forth where it does matter.

Yes you can get water into the fuel through plastic pipe against the
fuel pressure. The fuel is slightly hygroscopic, the plastic is
porous the water
dissolves into it. Never heard of it being a big problem though.

[harry]

> Jim K- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Oil burners have a positve displacement fuel pump. If they are hi/lo
burners ie two firing levels, the second pipe is for the excess oil to
go back to the tank when it is on low fire. One some burners,the
excess oil is recirculated within the burner. Onothers,ther is a
relief valve that controls the oil pressure, again the excess oil may
be recirculated within the burner or go back to the tank.

With heavy oils, the two pipe system is to do with heating the oil to
the correct temperature.

[harry]

On Apr 9, 9:40 am, "Jim K" <jk989...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Jim K- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Wouldn't dream of it. But many of the buildings I was responsible for
maintaining had them.

[Jim K]

you clearly haven't got an oil burner have you?

water in tank comes from condensation on inner tank surfaces not through
pipe walls!

It collects at bottom of tank til *eventually* there is enough to get
dragged into oil feed pipe & feck up filters, nozzles etc etc

Jim K

[Jim K]

Kin ell!! ;>)))

Jim K

[Dave Liquorice]

On Mon, 09 Apr 2012 23:54:15 +0100, Jim K wrote:

> >> Presumably the pipes become porous, and when the pump is running the
> >> pressure in the pipe near the pump is less that atmospheric.
>
> how much less?
> the oil tank level is generally above burner level & the oil is
> naturally under atmospheric pressure too....

Perhaps not a lot but it doesn't have to be. It will also vary with
oil level in the tank and the feed run. With the 30 odd foot of feed
pipe, a few elbows, fire valve and a couple of filters etc and the
bottom of the tank about the same level as the burner I'd say the
pressure on our system at the burner is below atmospheric when the
oil is low and the burner running.

> > And air molecules being much smaller than oil ones will get through
> > smaller holes...
>
> Holes from....?

For some reason the flexible pipes age pretty quickly, they may not
develop a hole right through but they certainly degrade and become
porous at the molecular level.

> My old camray had a return pipe too - what for?

Some burners require a return pipe, others recirculate within the
pump. Two pipe is generally installed when the oil level in the tank
can drop below the level of the pump.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[harry]

On Apr 10, 9:22 am, "Jim K" <jk989...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Jim K- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

That's what I said.

[Jim K]

er no that's what you now wished you had said.

You said (and you quote):-

> "Yes you can get water into the fuel through plastic pipe against the
> fuel pressure. The fuel is slightly hygroscopic, the plastic is
> porous the water
> dissolves into it. Never heard of it being a big problem though"

"against the fuel pressure"???
"plastic pipe is porous"???
"water dissolves into it"??????? kin classic that one

no mention of tank, condensation, filters, nozzles anywhere in your BS
Harray.

Jim K

[pt.indir...@gmail.com]

Pada Senin, 09 April 2012 03.24.20 UTC+7, jim menulis:
> Is there a diagnostic guide to the operation of Riello (oil) burners
> please?
>
> ie What to listen for, What to look for, Exhaust odour etc?
>
> The burner is a Riello G7Q in a Boulter Camray Quartet oil CH boiler.
>
> A technical manual for the (?similar) G5 series is at:
>

> http://www.rielloburners.co.uk/lumo/upload_documents/riello_r40g5technicalmanual.pdf

[Brian Gaff]

As aware of the original date of a post for example.
Brian

--
----- --
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
<pt.indir...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:b5cd1251-2687-4936...@googlegroups.com...

[Bill]

In message <b5cd1251-2687-4936...@googlegroups.com>,
pt.indir...@gmail.com writes

I know this is a DIY group, but...........

Bear in mind I know nothing about oil fired boilers, but my son's
property has two. At the time he was working away, so I had to look
after any work around his house. Both boilers had been serviced
regularly, but neither son nor I were happy with how they were working.

After asking around, we finally got a recommendation of someone to look
at them. He came and took me through each stage of checks and
observations. He found and dealt with several problems. One example of
something he found was that one boiler had the wrong size of nozzle
fitted. This hadn't been noticed on any of the previous "services". Our
"good man" charged less as well.

My advice would be to try to find a really good professional and get him
to check everything with you watching.


--
Bill

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

[The Natural Philosopher]

My exp[ereince with oil boliers is generally that if the fuel is there,
the fuel filters are clean and te nozzle is new, they are 100% reliable
UNTIL you get a gale and the balanced flue goes ape. And then te opto
detecor gets sooted up and they start to cut out.


Oil burners are simple brutes. They have a motor that pumps fuel and
air. They have a nozzle. They have a spark ignition system, they have a
detector to detect ignition (or lack of it) and they have a fuel supply
with filters.

If in doubt replace all filters, and the nozzle, and clean the opto
detector.

Or if its all getting too bad you can repolalce the whole sodding burner
for a couple hundred by and large





--
"And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch".

Gospel of St. Mathew 15:14

[Michael Chare]

See
https://www.homeownershub.com/uk-diy/riello-burner-g7q-intermittently-stops-801097-.htm
2012!
--
Michael Chare