Douible glazing: How to remove a Saracen shootbolt lock?

[trancen...@gmail.com]

Hi again,

The window I wish to install has a Saracen 'high security' shootbolt lock. I need to remove it and reinstall it upside-down, because I want to install the window upside-down (due to the way I want the casement to open). If I simply leave the lock as it is, the handle would be pointing upwards when the window is locked.

Can anyone tell me how to remove one of these locks? Here is a video about the lock I'm referring to:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9KNF7H_mGg

Do I need some kind of ultra-long box-spanner or something to remove the bayonet-fit shootbolts from the gearbox? You can't get to them easily because they are deep inside the fame. You can't simply grip the visible ends of the shootbolts and turn those, because they *screw into" the section that bayonet-fits into the gearbox. Turning the visible ends, merely adjusts the amount of protrusion from the casement frame when you lock the window. (If you unscrew them completely, they come out, but the section that bayonet-fits onto the gearbox remains in place.

Many thanks,

Al

[trancen...@gmail.com]

PS: This link shows a photo and diagrams of the lock in question:
http://www.handlesandhinges.co.uk/saracen-shootbolt-rods-for-deadlock-gearbox/

Al

[Phil L]

This secondhand window you've bought is rapidly turning into a waste of time
and money.

You've had to adjust the frame as you want to use the frame
'side-on'...drain hole headaches.

You've had to remove the glazing and the whole rats nest of problems that
has incurred.

Now you have to adjust the locking mechanism.

I don't know how much you paid for it, but you could have had one made to
order with the openings where you want, with units but unglazed, and with
all the security bolts in-situ and including all wedges/spacers etc required
to fit it for less than £200

[trancen...@gmail.com]

Ta for the suggestion. I paid £40 for this one (not from a dealer). Yes, the thought had crossed my mind to give up and toss it. However, I'm not in the market for a £200 replacement, so I think I'll soldier on with this one. I find that installation headaches, when overcome, tend to result in greater self-satisfaction upon completion. Also, perhaps: better the devil you know than the devil you don't. I quite like challenges. But certainly this is the most problematic window I've encountered to date. :-/

Al

[T i m]

On Sun, 9 Oct 2016 07:29:47 -0700 (PDT), "dfgd...@fghjfgh.com"
<trancen...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, October 9, 2016 at 2:30:21 PM UTC+1, Phil L wrote:

<snip>

>> I don't know how much you paid for it, but you could have had one made to
>> order with the openings where you want, with units but unglazed, and with
>> all the security bolts in-situ and including all wedges/spacers etc required
>> to fit it for less than £200
>
>Ta for the suggestion. I paid £40 for this one (not from a dealer). Yes, the thought had crossed my mind to give up and toss it. However, I'm not in the market for a £200 replacement, so I think I'll soldier on with this one.

Some people seem to forget this is a d-i-y newsgroup! ;-)

>I find that installation headaches, when overcome, tend to result in greater self-satisfaction upon completion.

Bingo.

>Also, perhaps: better the devil you know than the devil you don't. I quite like challenges. But certainly this is the most problematic window I've encountered to date. :-/

But once you have done all you need, you will (hopefully) have learned
a lot and (hopefully) saved some cash.

I have often / sometimes spent more money (and often vastly more money
if I was charging my own time) than something is worth but that's
often part of the whole doing_it_yourself thing.

You may lose out (financially) when doing the first but gain on any
you do after, and like climbing a mountain, you often don't know if
you are at the top or it's just another ridge.

Some might ask why you would bother to climb up when you can use the
cable-car or a Helicopter ... <rolls eyes> ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[trancen...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, October 9, 2016 at 7:02:58 PM UTC+1, T i m wrote:

> >Also, perhaps: better the devil you know than the devil you don't. I quite like challenges. But certainly this is the most problematic window I've encountered to date. :-/
>
> But once you have done all you need, you will (hopefully) have learned
> a lot and (hopefully) saved some cash.

The value of the lessons learned is certainly a much-overlooked fringe-benefit of sticking with it rather than giving up. A but of lateral thinking and paradigm-shifting can often produce some surprising and satisfactory solutions to seemingly insurmountable obstacles. I find that many SNAFUs can turn from mountains into molehills after a good night's sleep. Personally, I am never at peak state, mental or physically when I have been wrestling with some setback for too long. But next morning, after a good night's sleep, I seem to be able to see things from a better angle or see a 'bigger picture' or some innovative way to solve a problem.

Anyway, going back to my Saracen deadbolt window lock, there are two 6mm (approx) square inspection holes in the frame, right where the bayonet fittings fit into the gearbox. I can only assume that this is where you insert some tool or other to turn the bayonets. Maybe a simple flathead screwdriver inserted correctly and then clouted with a 'gentle-persuader' is all that's required... If you look at the photo here:

http://www.handlesandhinges.co.uk/saracen-shootbolt-rods-for-deadlock-gearbox/

you'll see two lugs or protrusuions on the brass bayonet that look as though they may be designed to enable "turn with hammer and small chisel" method, via the said square inspection hole.

If that's the case, all I need is better eyesight to see through that small square hole. I tried a magnifying glass but it wasn't much help.

I guess one option would be to turn that small square hole into a big round hole, using a large drill bit, so I can see what's going on, but such butchery would be a bit of a drastic move.

Al

[T i m]

On Mon, 10 Oct 2016 01:05:53 -0700 (PDT), "A...@sdgsdg.com"
<trancen...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, October 9, 2016 at 7:02:58 PM UTC+1, T i m wrote:
>
>> >Also, perhaps: better the devil you know than the devil you don't. I quite like challenges. But certainly this is the most problematic window I've encountered to date. :-/
>>
>> But once you have done all you need, you will (hopefully) have learned
>> a lot and (hopefully) saved some cash.
>
>The value of the lessons learned is certainly a much-overlooked fringe-benefit of sticking with it rather than giving up.

Yup.

>A but of lateral thinking and paradigm-shifting can often produce some surprising and satisfactory solutions to seemingly insurmountable obstacles.

Which is why many often ask such questions here. 'Two (or more) heads
are (often) better than one'. We all know the exceptions here of
course. ;-)

>I find that many SNAFUs can turn from mountains into molehills after a good night's sleep.

Agreed ... or not even a nights sleep ... a walk, shower or chat with
some friends. I really confuse the Mrs because she *thinks* I have
some up with a set_in_stone solution to something whereas until it's
actually actioned, it's often only just 'a' solution and often one of
many I'm considering (and some I haven't yet). ;-)

>Personally, I am never at peak state, mental or physically when I have been wrestling with some setback for too long.

Understood.

>But next morning, after a good night's sleep, I seem to be able to see things from a better angle or see a 'bigger picture' or some innovative way to solve a problem.

Yup, even 'stepping away / back' from a problem for a while can help,
even just long enough to make a brew. Bigger / more complicated
problems may need to be slept on as you say. ;-)

>
>Anyway, going back to my Saracen deadbolt window lock, there are two 6mm (approx) square inspection holes in the frame, right where the bayonet fittings fit into the gearbox. I can only assume that this is where you insert some tool or other to turn the bayonets. Maybe a simple flathead screwdriver inserted correctly and then clouted with a 'gentle-persuader' is all that's required... If you look at the photo here:
>
>http://www.handlesandhinges.co.uk/saracen-shootbolt-rods-for-deadlock-gearbox/
>
>you'll see two lugs or protrusuions on the brass bayonet that look as though they may be designed to enable "turn with hammer and small chisel" method, via the said square inspection hole.

Hmm, sorry, I can't quite see what you are referring to there?

>
>If that's the case, all I need is better eyesight to see through that small square hole. I tried a magnifying glass but it wasn't much help.

Ah, no wonder I can't see it from the picture! ;-)

>
>I guess one option would be to turn that small square hole into a big round hole, using a large drill bit, so I can see what's going on, but such butchery would be a bit of a drastic move.

Ah, so you are talking about taking the gearbox to bits to change the
handedness of it's action? You turn the handle down and not up to open
the windows etc? Couldn't you just take it out and turn it over to do
that (of have I missed the plot here).? ;-(

Cheers, T i m

[Al]

PS... Making progress! I found that the lock's plastic face plate was easily pry-offable. Here is a photo of what I can now see:

http://fffbook.com/lock.png

Anyone help me undo the shootbolts/deadbolts? They appear to be tubular aluminium with a brass end that fixes into the gearbox somehow. It *might* be a bayonet fit, like other Saracen locks, but there is no room to get a spanner in there to try turning it.

Al

[Andy Burns]

Al wrote:

> Anyone help me undo the shootbolts/deadbolts? They appear to be
> tubular aluminium with a brass end that fixes into the gearbox
> somehow. It *might* be a bayonet fit, like other Saracen locks, but
> there is no room to get a spanner in there to try turning it.

If you remove the handle, does that buy you a bit of waggle room to pull
the rods+gearbox forward and get some pliers in?

[Al]

PS...

It appears that my shootbolts may be the push-fit type as opposed to the bayonet-fit type. Mine look like the ones on this page:

http://tinyurl.com/zoxoklg

The fitting instructions on that page say that "brute force" is required to remove and/or fit the shootbolts into the gearbox! So I guess I need to pluck up the courage to use "brute force"! Ghaa!

-Al

[Al]

PPS... It's proving extremely difficult to budge the brass male out of the brass female. I managed to move them a few hundredths of an inch using a hamme and a narrow wood chisel, but rather than risking compromising the gearbox, I'm thinking of destroying the shootbolts by drilling through them. As replacements seem to be unavailable, I'd then have a window with no shootbolts; just the central mortice. I don't mind that idea at all, as long as I'd still get a good draft/water proof seal around the casement when it's shut. What do you think? The casement height is about 100cm.

Cheers,
Al

[Al]

No Sir, but thanks... There is not enough room to get even needlepoint pliers in. Some other means of removal seems to be called for. I've been using a narrow wood chisel and hammer, but it gained me a few hundreds of an inch of movement only. I wish I could expand the brass female with a blow torch, but that would risk melting the surrounding plastic.

Al

[Andy Burns]

Al wrote:

> There is not enough room to get even needlepoint pliers in. Some
> other means of removal seems to be called for.

If they're not the bayonet ones, then pull on the shootbolt ends with a
pair of mole grips?

[Andy Burns]

Andy Burns wrote:

> If they're not the bayonet ones, then pull on the shootbolt ends with a
> pair of mole grips?

By which I mean the ends *away* from the gearbox ...

[Al]

Unfortunately, they are too tightly-fitted. The ends of the shootbolts (in my case, at least) are plastic and would almost certainly rip off the threaded rod if I was able to apply enough leverage to do anything. I did find a pair of replacement push-fit shootbolts online for £10. So I could drill the existing ones out. Then, after removing the gearbox, I'd have a decent chance of being able to remove the stubs by applying heat to the female. But, honestly, I don't really care if the window has shootbolts. Do you think they are necessary to give a good seal around the casement when its shut, or will the central mortice bolt be enough to do that?

Cheers, Al

[Rod Speed]

"A...@sdgsdg.com" <trancen...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:690fae85-726d-4ace...@googlegroups.com...

You might try a photo with a decent smartphone camera if you have one.

[Al]

On Tuesday, October 11, 2016 at 7:04:10 AM UTC+1, Rod Speed wrote:

> You might try a photo with a decent smartphone camera if you have one.

You may have missed this one which I posted earlier in this thread:
http://fffbook.com/lock.png

Al