OKay, so what is "Whitewood" and "Redwood" ?
Mike Dodd
Was looking on the net for a supplier of western red cedar, when I came
across this. Just what is a "whitewood" pine, and what is different with a
"redwood" pine ? Is it just a colour thing, is it the drying process, which
is better to use for woodworking etc?
Just curious.
Regards.
stuart noble
Mike Dodd wrote in message <3e60cb46$0$5363$cc9e...@news.dial.pipex.com>...
Depending on the source, it can be total rubbish or highly prized and
impossible to get hold of. Mouldings, skirting etc are all taken out of it.
Whitewood, mostly from Norway, is Spruce, i.e. the Xmas tree. Quite nice
stuff but not used for anything other than flooring AFAIK. Canadian spruce
is used for construction timber and for B&Q "softwood" packs.
Mary Fisher
"Mike Dodd" <mike...@NOSPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:3e60cb46$0$5363$cc9e...@news.dial.pipex.com...
> Title says it all...
>
> Was looking on the net for a supplier of western red cedar,
I'm curious about why you were looking for that. Was it something to do with
buzzers?
Mary
Mike Dodd
:
: I'm curious about why you were looking for that. Was it something to do
with
: buzzers?
Wibble?
No, the girlfriend wants something for the airing cupboard to hold towels
etc. She's heard that cedar has anti-moth properties (ie it smells) and
would like it made from that (not that we've had any problems with moths,
but what can I say?). I've looked at a couple of books which indicate that
western red cedar is a pretty good wood to work with, dimensionally stable,
works well, finishes well. Believe it to be relatively cheap, I know its not
the strongest wood in the world, but for this application it doesn't need to
be. I was just going to buy a small quantity, play around with it to see if
I could use it.
Regards.
Mary Fisher
>
> No, the girlfriend wants something for the airing cupboard to hold towels
> etc. She's heard that cedar has anti-moth properties (ie it smells) and
> would like it made from that (not that we've had any problems with moths,
> but what can I say?). I've looked at a couple of books which indicate that
> western red cedar is a pretty good wood to work with, dimensionally
stable,
> works well, finishes well. Believe it to be relatively cheap, I know its
not
> the strongest wood in the world, but for this application it doesn't need
to
> be. I was just going to buy a small quantity, play around with it to see
if
> I could use it.
>
Lebanon timber and I don't think (but I could be wrong) that that's the same
thing at all.
Western red cedar is used for making beehives, commercially, because it's
light and almost rot proof in the long life of a beehive. It's very
difficult to get the right plank size in UK though so Spouse always used
floorboards, which made the hive parts heavy but much cheaper.
A timber which insects didn't like wouldn't be used for beehives ...
Mary
> Regards.
>
>
Mike Dodd
of
: Lebanon timber and I don't think (but I could be wrong) that that's the
same
: thing at all.
: Western red cedar is used for making beehives, commercially, because it's
: light and almost rot proof in the long life of a beehive. It's very
: difficult to get the right plank size in UK though so Spouse always used
: floorboards, which made the hive parts heavy but much cheaper.
:
: A timber which insects didn't like wouldn't be used for beehives ...
Interesting points, and probably well founded. Unfortunately, us blokes just
do what we're told (or try to give the impression that we do), so "Make it
from Cedar" becomes "(which is the easiest and most cost effective way of
doing this)"
Hmmm, non of my books mention Lebanese spruce, what chance of finding that
locally?!
I've just started playing with banging wood with hammers, so I'm eager to
dabble with a few ideas. Western Red Cedar is supposed to be pretty good to
work with, so I was keen to try that (better than that damned fibrous Pine
stuff). Might have to practice / prototype with pine, though (or maybe
spruce?).
Thanks for info.
Mary Fisher
>
> Hmmm, non of my books mention Lebanese spruce, what chance of finding that
> locally?!
Depends where 'locally' is!
It's not a spruce, it's Cedrus libani. It's a very large parkland tree, not
usually a commercial wood. There are some specialist sources of such timbers
though (I doubt that you'd get it from Jewsons!).
See www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/ Parliament/2587/cedar.html
which is interesting reading and confirms that it's never attacked by
insects - and that it smells nice.*
John Boddy of Boroughbridge might well stock it.
>
> I've just started playing with banging wood with hammers, so I'm eager to
> dabble with a few ideas. Western Red Cedar is supposed to be pretty good
to
> work with, so I was keen to try that (better than that damned fibrous Pine
> stuff). Might have to practice / prototype with pine, though (or maybe
> spruce?).
WRC is easy to work but it won't deter insects.
What sort of insects is your lady worried about?
Mary
* you can buy oil of Cedar of Lebanon which would probably have the same
effect ...
>
> Thanks for info.
>
>
Peter Ashby
"Mary Fisher" <mary....@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> * you can buy oil of Cedar of Lebanon which would probably have the same
> effect ...
I understand from reading the woodworking mags that you can get C of L
veneered ply and mdf too. Though I have never tried to source any as my
lady has bad hayfever and hates the idea of fragrant wood.
Peter
--
Peter Ashby
Wellcome Trust Biocentre
University of Dundee, Scotland
Reverse the Spam and remove to email me.
Mike Dodd
: > Hmmm, non of my books mention Lebanese spruce, what chance of finding
that
: > locally?!
:
: Depends where 'locally' is!
I was just concerned that it sounded exotic, and considering how difficult
it is to find Western Red Cedar around here (Lancs) in small quantities,
PAR, I was a little sceptical about finding this either.
: It's not a spruce, it's Cedrus libani. It's a very large parkland tree,
not
Doh!, ignore my ramblings - must have had a book open on a Spruce page,
fingers glued to eyes, brain not involved. I meant Cedar!
usually a commercial wood. There are some specialist sources of such
timbers
: though (I doubt that you'd get it from Jewsons!).
:
: See www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/ Parliament/2587/cedar.html
Ah, so its grown in England, anyway, so might not be that difficult to come
by....
: which is interesting reading and confirms that it's never attacked by
: insects - and that it smells nice.*
: >
: > I've just started playing with banging wood with hammers, so I'm eager
to
: > dabble with a few ideas. Western Red Cedar is supposed to be pretty good
: to
: > work with, so I was keen to try that (better than that damned fibrous
Pine
: > stuff). Might have to practice / prototype with pine, though (or maybe
: > spruce?).
:
: WRC is easy to work but it won't deter insects.
: What sort of insects is your lady worried about?
She says moths, but we don't have them anyway, I think she's just showing an
interest in my new hobby, and wants to design the things for the house
herself. Personally, I just want to move away from pine and practise a
little, and WRC seemed an easy direction (still need to find a local
stockist, however, although I think I've found a place, just need to find
out when its open - the joys of having a full time job, eh!)
: * you can buy oil of Cedar of Lebanon which would probably have the same
: effect ...
Interesting idea, thats a DIY thing, not a herbalist type thing, I take it?
Mary Fisher
"Peter Ashby" <p.r....@MAPS.dundee.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:p.r.ashby-3F099...@dux.dundee.ac.uk...
> In article <3e623ee2$0$256$4c56...@master.news.zetnet.net>,
> "Mary Fisher" <mary....@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >
> > * you can buy oil of Cedar of Lebanon which would probably have the same
> > effect ...
>
> I understand from reading the woodworking mags that you can get C of L
> veneered ply and mdf too.
Mdf??? Good Heavens. What is the world coming to!
> Though I have never tried to source any as my
> lady has bad hayfever and hates the idea of fragrant wood.
Hayfever is usually caused by pollen. Wood doesn't emit pollen.
Of course, she might be a rare exception ...
Mary
Mary Fisher
> <terse reply on, original reply lost due to Outlook crashing>
>
>
>
> Ah, so its grown in England, anyway, so might not be that difficult to
come
> by....
Yes, but not usually as a commercial timber ... it's a lovely tree, I know
of several specimens. I even started growing one myself, from a seed from a
cone at the National Agricultural Centre bee garden in Warwickshire. But as
is my wont it was neglectd and died. I wouldn't have lived long enough for
it to come to maturity anyway so don't feel guilty that I can't supply you!
>
> :
> : WRC is easy to work but it won't deter insects.
> : What sort of insects is your lady worried about?
>
> She says moths, but we don't have them anyway,
Quite.
> I think she's just showing an
> interest in my new hobby, and wants to design the things for the house
> herself. Personally, I just want to move away from pine and practise a
> little, and WRC seemed an easy direction (still need to find a local
> stockist, however, although I think I've found a place, just need to find
> out when its open - the joys of having a full time job, eh!)
In my (limited) experience although WRC might well be easy to work with
(Spouse says it is) you can't get a really good finish on it. I'd stick to a
native hardwood.
>
> : * you can buy oil of Cedar of Lebanon which would probably have the same
> : effect ...
>
> Interesting idea, thats a DIY thing, not a herbalist type thing, I take
it?
Um. I think you'd have more luck at buying it in a herbalist than at B&Q.
Mary
>
>
Andy Dingley
<mike...@NOSPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote:
>Title says it all...
whitewood - pale crap
redwood - darker crap.
If it won't own up to what species it is, then do you really want to
buy timber that's ashamed of itself ? Equally for timberyards.
White deal might be spruce or hemlock. Red deal might be scots pine or
douglas fir. They could be almost anything though.
Redwood is a sequioa, used for outdoor work. The names are used
variably in the UK, depending on who you ask.
There are three common (sic) cedars, two of which aren't even cedar !
Cedar of Lebanon (Cedrus libani) is rare, except as an ornamental.
It's infamously brittle, so keep your eyes open for felling after
storm damage. But don't fell it yourself, because it has an evil
reputation for falling unexpectedly on loggers. Apart from these
windfalls, it's effectively unobtainable. It's the real stuff for
chest-lining.
Spanish cedar (Cedrela spp.) is a tropical. It's used to line cigar
humidors, because it's tolerant of the moisture. Sometimes prone to
"crying", this will ooze a seemingly inexhaustible supply of resin.
Expensive, but easily found from specialists.
The only one you'll find in a DIY shed is red cedar. These are
lightweight, easily worked (although a low angle plane helps to avoid
tearout) and have the characteristic "cedar" smell. It doesn't
actually smell like cedar, but it smells like what people think cedar
smells like. It's rot-resistant, so used a lot for outdoor work.
There are several cedars used as construction timber. The two you'll
be most likely meet are Western (Thuja plicata) and Eastern red cedar
(Juniperus virginiana). Western is much lighter, and less useful - can
be nice to carve though. Smells of pencils.
The only one that's going to do you for an airing cupboard is the
Eastern red cedar. This is denser, and has "the cedar smell".
All of the timbers above have some insect repellant properties. Cedar
of Lebanon is the really bug-proof one though.
jacob
woods.
'Redwood' is the British Standard name for scots pine i.e. the most
common joinery timber used. Best is imported from northern europe so
may be called 'baltic redwood' or russian, finnish or swedish redwood.
Also has been called red deal, yellow deal, Archangel fir, swedish
pine and other names.
To make it even more confusing there is californian redwood which isnt
pine at all but is Sequoia, and there are other redwoods.
It - i.e. scots pine imported, (not from scotland!) - used to be
graded by number but top 3 or 4 grades are usually bundled together
and called 'un-sorted'. So 'un-sorted' is better than 4ths or 5ths.
Different countries have slightly different grading systems so swedish
5ths is the similar to russian 4ths - both used for lowest quality
joinery e.g. skirtings. Grading varies between woodyards (at place of
origin e.g. Archangel - it arrives here already graded and
marked).Better joinery uses 'un-sorted', which the user may sort
himself - so saving best stuff for glazing bars etc. As a rule it is
bought as close as possible to the finished size required as ripping
it down results in lowering the grade, for reasons to complicated to
describe here.
So ask for unsorted redwood for most purposes.
Whitewood is BS name for Norway Spruce - available in wider widths
than redwood but only suitable for internal joinery. There are also
several other 'whitewoods' - usually american, e.g. 'canary whitewood'
but if you ask for whitwood you should expect spruce.
There are also dozens of other spruces, pines and other softwoods.
Western red cedar is only used for cladding - beehives, sheds, and
shingles etc. Too soft and easily marked for most joinery apps, but
very durable and weather resistant especially if copper or brass nails
are used. Its a bit acidic so iron nails shorten its life. Absolutely
no relation to cedar of lebanon the true cedar, - also known as atlas
cedar, deodar, atlantic cedar.
cheers
Jacob
stuart noble
Andy Dingley wrote in message
>>Title says it all...
>whitewood - pale crap
>redwood - darker crap.
There's crap timber across the spectrum, including all that flat sawn oak
they used to make 30s furniture. The best European Redwood fetches hardwood
prices which is why you don't see it in Jewsons.
>White deal might be spruce or hemlock
hemlock I believe. Very pricey stuff and unlikely to turn up in a shrink
wrapped pack at B&Q.
> Red deal might be scots pine or
>douglas fir.
You're winding us up right?
Andy Hall
<stuart'no...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>Andy Dingley wrote in message
>>>Title says it all...
>>whitewood - pale crap
>>redwood - darker crap.
>Ah, a timber snob! I bet you have a long beard and do craft fairs.
>There's crap timber across the spectrum, including all that flat sawn oak
>they used to make 30s furniture. The best European Redwood fetches hardwood
>prices which is why you don't see it in Jewsons.
Do you have a suggestion of a supplier for good quality timber,
Stuart?
Andy Hall
Email by removing the word after the two letter,
top level Nordic country domain.
Mary Fisher
"stuart noble" <stuart'no...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:PD29a.12037$EN3....@newsfep4-glfd.server.ntli.net...
>
> Andy Dingley wrote in message
> >>Title says it all...
> >whitewood - pale crap
> >redwood - darker crap.
> Ah, a timber snob!
:-)
> I bet you have a long beard and do craft fairs.
> There's crap timber across the spectrum, including all that flat sawn oak
> they used to make 30s furniture.
Oh yes indeed.
But oak furniture is still hallowed.
And we'd already told the chap about Cedar of Lebanon.
Mary
Mary Fisher
"jacob" <ja...@jpbutler.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:b9730626.03030...@posting.google.com...
> Western red cedar is only used for cladding - beehives,
It's used for beehives because it's virtually rotproof and very lightweight.
> shingles etc. Too soft and easily marked for most joinery apps, but
> very durable and weather resistant especially if copper or brass nails
> are used.
Or galvanised.
Its a bit acidic so iron nails shorten its life.
That's true of some other timbers too, notably oak.
Mary
stuart noble
Andy Hall wrote in message ...
>Do you have a suggestion of a supplier for good quality timber,
>Stuart?
Andy
but they both have showrooms and vast stocks.
http://www.lathamtimber.co.uk/
http://www.andersons.gbr.cc/
Andy Hall
thanks for that.
I called Latham's and they sell boards (e.g. veneered stuff) from one
depot and timber from others. For boards they are willing to sell
direct for quantities of 4-6 and up based on value of order, otherwise
through local independent builder's merchants. For timber, a
"reasonable" order or about a £25 delivery charge for smaller orders.
Both divisions have a catalogue that they will send out.
Andersons are in Carlisle and don't go much further south, they say.
stuart noble
Andy Hall wrote in message <1fob6v895cpv9v96a...@4ax.com>...
>>http://www.andersons.gbr.cc/
>Andersons are in Carlisle and don't go much further south, they say.
Sorry, Andy. Should have been
http://www.cfanderson.co.uk
I just assumed there wouldn't be more than one Andersons.....
Andy Hall
Ah thanks. Catalogue on line as well. I'll give them a call.
Have you bought from both firms, Stuart? Is quality good unseen
and better than the large merchants like Jewsons?
I appreciate your thoughts
stuart noble
Andy Hall wrote in message <2hfc6vkeuoctdfkjn...@4ax.com>...
>Have you bought from both firms, Stuart?
(normally 4 cubic metres) of sawn material. As soon as the pack is split it
becomes retail and is reflected in the price.
>Is quality good unseen
Generally yes because you can specify a grade of material and a source. For
example, Finnish stuff is always pricey because the whole country is far
north enough to guarantee slow growth. Swedish can be very high quality, or
rough from the south. Karasea from Siberia is the dog's whatsits and most
Russian is pretty good.
>and better than the large merchants like Jewsons?
terms of stock levels I'd say Jewsons are small compared to Andersons and
Lathams, who are importers rather than merchants. Then again I think Jewsons
used to be part of Montague Meyer whose open storage was so vast you needed
a car to get from the 4x2s to the 6x2s.
It all depends what you're using it for. I was having biggish mouldings made
so straight grain, moisture content and long lengths were important. We used
to take 2x4 out of 2x8 because it was more stable. More than twice the price
of 2x4 of course but worth it in the end.
As I said, Ducal used to buy the worst of the best i.e. 5th and 6th grades
but from Finland. They also spent big bucks on having it carefully kilned,
which the Finns are good at and the Russians hopeless (though that may have
changed recently).
Don't tell me, this is for your fence, isn't it? :-)
Andy Hall
No not for the fence, and thanks very much.
I'm mainly lookign for a good source of reliable quality hardwoods of
sensible price, not cheapest and if technical expertise is there that
has value in the price.
stuart noble
Andy Hall wrote in message ...
>No not for the fence, and thanks very much.
>
>I'm mainly lookign for a good source of reliable quality hardwoods of
>sensible price, not cheapest and if technical expertise is there that
>has value in the price.
manufactured in hardwood used American oak, ash, cherry etc. Reliable
quality and moisture content, sustainable forests etc. Kitchen manufacturers
use it a lot I think. If it's for internal use there's no point in working
with anything above 12% moisture content and getting anyone to specify that
isn't easy. My limited experience with home grown stuff is that you might
get lucky and you might not.
FWIW Roger Haydock in Widnes are big players on the softwood side. Not sure
about hardwoods though.