How should I paint my roof white?

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Guy Dawson

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May 28, 2009, 3:02:31 AM5/28/09
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I see that Prof Chu says we should paint our roofs white to help combat
climate change.

We have a 1930s semi with a normal pitches roof with dark grey concrete
tiles on it. It sure does get hot in the loft during the summer.

Any recommendations as to what I can use to paint (I assume) the tiles
white?

Guy
-- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Guy Dawson@SMTP - gn...@cuillin.org.uk // ICBM - 6.15.16W 57.12.23N 986M
4.4>5.4 4.4>5.4 4.4>5.4 The Reality Check's in the Post! 4.4>5.4 4.4>5.4

Andrew Gabriel

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May 28, 2009, 3:16:44 AM5/28/09
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In article <bGqTl.291659$HA3.1...@newsfe01.ams2>,

Guy Dawson <gn...@cuillin.org.uk> writes:
> I see that Prof Chu says we should paint our roofs white to help combat
> climate change.
>
> We have a 1930s semi with a normal pitches roof with dark grey concrete
> tiles on it. It sure does get hot in the loft during the summer.
>
> Any recommendations as to what I can use to paint (I assume) the tiles
> white?

I would start by making sure your loft insulation is up to spec.
That helps summer and winter.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Guy Dawson

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May 28, 2009, 3:36:10 AM5/28/09
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Andrew Gabriel wrote:
> In article <bGqTl.291659$HA3.1...@newsfe01.ams2>,
> Guy Dawson <gn...@cuillin.org.uk> writes:
>> I see that Prof Chu says we should paint our roofs white to help combat
>> climate change.
>>
>> We have a 1930s semi with a normal pitches roof with dark grey concrete
>> tiles on it. It sure does get hot in the loft during the summer.
>>
>> Any recommendations as to what I can use to paint (I assume) the tiles
>> white?
>
> I would start by making sure your loft insulation is up to spec.
> That helps summer and winter.

Already done.

The Natural Philosopher

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May 28, 2009, 4:33:59 AM5/28/09
to
Guy Dawson wrote:
> I see that Prof Chu says we should paint our roofs white to help combat
> climate change.
>
> We have a 1930s semi with a normal pitches roof with dark grey concrete
> tiles on it. It sure does get hot in the loft during the summer.
>

I want to paint all my trees white. Is this what god invented birdshit for?

Stuart Noble

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May 28, 2009, 5:40:23 AM5/28/09
to

You need insulation between the rafters if you want the loft cool in
summer.

meow...@care2.com

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May 28, 2009, 5:56:56 AM5/28/09
to
Guy Dawson wrote:
> I see that Prof Chu says we should paint our roofs white to help combat
> climate change.
>
> We have a 1930s semi with a normal pitches roof with dark grey concrete
> tiles on it. It sure does get hot in the loft during the summer.
>
> Any recommendations as to what I can use to paint (I assume) the tiles
> white?
>
> Guy

Whitewash is traditional. Its basically chalk in glue, and gradually
washes off in winter. If you want it to last longer then diluted lime
putty, but it needs 2 or 3 coats. In principle you could use masonry
paint, but then you'd have to actually get up there and make sure
there was no splash or overpaint. The lime paints thats not a problem
with, any spill is just hosed off, and a floor brush can be used for
painting.


NT

Guy Dawson

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May 28, 2009, 6:01:53 AM5/28/09
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Stuart Noble wrote:

> You need insulation between the rafters if you want the loft cool in
> summer.

It's not so much the keeping the loft cool but the reflection of sunlight
back into space to avoid heating the atmosphere.

Prof Chu's point is that a lot of solar heating is caused by building
being heated by the sun and radiating the heat back into the atmosphere.

If the sunlight could be reflected back into space by white surfaces then
we'd help slow global warming.

http://www.climateark.org/shared/reader/welcome.aspx?linkid=128556


Guy
-- --------------------------------------------------------------------
Guy Dawson I.T. Manager Crossflight Ltd
gn...@crossflight.co.uk

Stuart Noble

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May 28, 2009, 7:05:49 AM5/28/09
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White tarmac too maybe.

Guy Dawson

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May 28, 2009, 7:36:43 AM5/28/09
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Stuart Noble wrote:

> White tarmac too maybe.

That's also suggested!

Dave Osborne

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May 28, 2009, 7:40:51 AM5/28/09
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Well, you could try googling for "roof tile paint"

e.g. http://www.nwepaints.co.uk/acatalog/RoofingBitumenCoatings.html

or even "solar reflective paint"

e.g. http://www.paco-systems.co.uk/pdfs/solarref.pdf

Fredxx

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May 28, 2009, 7:48:36 AM5/28/09
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"Dave Osborne" <rum...@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:787bicF...@mid.individual.net...

I'm always wary of solar reflective paints which are a grey.

For good reflectivity, they ought to at least start out white.


Andy Dingley

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May 28, 2009, 7:53:16 AM5/28/09
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On 28 May, 08:02, Guy Dawson <gn...@cuillin.org.uk> wrote:
> I see that Prof Chu says we should paint our roofs white to help combat
> climate change.

Extensive green roof (or brown roof) is better.

Admittedly a bit hard to retrofit to a 45° slope, but it's what I'm
doing with my sheds (which are 3× the house roof area).

Andrew Gabriel

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May 28, 2009, 8:01:07 AM5/28/09
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In article <gvltmu$5fi$1...@news.eternal-september.org>,

White is a definition which relates to visible light.
I suspect far more energy is present in the infrared,
and it's more important that it's reflective in the
infrared than the visible. Sheet copper would probably
be quite good if it didn't tarnish, or some type of
plasticised film version. At a former workplace, we
had the roof painted to reduce solar gain, and IIRC,
the paint looked green.

Guy Dawson

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May 28, 2009, 8:24:12 AM5/28/09
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Dave Osborne wrote:

> Well, you could try googling for "roof tile paint"
>
> e.g. http://www.nwepaints.co.uk/acatalog/RoofingBitumenCoatings.html
>
> or even "solar reflective paint"
>
> e.g. http://www.paco-systems.co.uk/pdfs/solarref.pdf

<hang head in shame>
Oh yeah!
</hang head in shame>

Donwill

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May 28, 2009, 8:27:08 AM5/28/09
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Surely we should be trying to collect this energy and substitute it for
fossil fuels rather than attempt to reflect it back through our
atmosphere to space. I think that makes more sense don't you?

Don

Guy Dawson

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May 28, 2009, 8:43:57 AM5/28/09
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Donwill > wrote:

> Surely we should be trying to collect this energy and substitute it for
> fossil fuels rather than attempt to reflect it back through our
> atmosphere to space. I think that makes more sense don't you?

Indeed. However the systems are quite expensive still.

Rather than doing nothing and waiting for the perfect solution we can
still do something useful...

Guy

Fredxx

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May 28, 2009, 8:46:56 AM5/28/09
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"Andrew Gabriel" <and...@cucumber.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4a1e7d03$0$512$5a6a...@news.aaisp.net.uk...

It's not a coincidence that the suns energy is concentrated in the visible
spectrum. The peak is in fact at green.

Reflecting the near infrared is a complete waste of time, it is generally
not transmitted through the atmosphere, and if we do manage to reflect the
re-radiated near infrared energy, it would only be absorbed again by the
atmosphere. Infrared reflecting paints are next to useless.


Bob Mannix

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May 28, 2009, 8:53:55 AM5/28/09
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"Fredxx" <fre...@spam.com> wrote in message
news:gvm148$a9$1...@news.eternal-september.org...

Indeed, the greenhouse effect works because visible/uv energy comes from the
sun through the atmosphere (or greenhouse glass) (mostly) and is absorbed by
the earth and re-radiated as infra-red, which the atmosphere (or green-house
glass) doesn't let out again (mostly). So white or silver reflectors would
work best in terms of cooling the earth.


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)


PeterC

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May 28, 2009, 8:57:15 AM5/28/09
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With black lines?
--
Peter.
You don't understand Newton's Third Law of Motion?
It's not rocket science, you know.

Donwill

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May 28, 2009, 9:03:23 AM5/28/09
to
Guy Dawson wrote:
> Donwill > wrote:
>
>> Surely we should be trying to collect this energy and substitute it
>> for fossil fuels rather than attempt to reflect it back through our
>> atmosphere to space. I think that makes more sense don't you?
>
> Indeed. However the systems are quite expensive still.
Expensive to who? yourself? The planet? The planet wont care one way or
another, it will survive. However the human species that has inflicted
itself on the other species which inhabit this planet will probably
destroy itself competing for resources. We have the ability and
arrogance to reckognise when other species need culling, yet we are
blind to our own faults and untrammelled ambitions.

>
> Rather than doing nothing and waiting for the perfect solution we can
> still do something useful...
>
> Guy

I suggest you go and read James Lovelock's "The Vanishing Face of Gaia"
that could be useful to you.

Don

meow...@care2.com

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May 28, 2009, 9:46:13 AM5/28/09
to

solar warm air heating can be installed for hundreds of pounds, and
pays back ok if sufficiently well designed.


NT

Guy Dawson

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May 28, 2009, 10:22:06 AM5/28/09
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Donwill > wrote:
> Guy Dawson wrote:
>> Donwill > wrote:
>>
>>> Surely we should be trying to collect this energy and substitute it
>>> for fossil fuels rather than attempt to reflect it back through our
>>> atmosphere to space. I think that makes more sense don't you?
>>
>> Indeed. However the systems are quite expensive still.
>
> Expensive to who? yourself?

Me of course.

> The planet? The planet wont care one way or another, it will survive.

Indeed. The planet will be fine. It coped with the 7C rise in 50years at
the end the last ice age - I think I read that in the book Six Degrees - and
the plant will cope in some way with what ever we throw at it.

> However the human species that has inflicted
> itself on the other species which inhabit this planet will probably
> destroy itself competing for resources. We have the ability and
> arrogance to reckognise when other species need culling, yet we are
> blind to our own faults and untrammelled ambitions.

So it's not worth us doing anything?

>>
>> Rather than doing nothing and waiting for the perfect solution we can
>> still do something useful...
> >
> > Guy
>
> I suggest you go and read James Lovelock's "The Vanishing Face of Gaia"
> that could be useful to you.

If you're in a sinking boat do you wait to drown or start bailing and
look for a plan B?

Guy

Donwill

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May 28, 2009, 10:36:49 AM5/28/09
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Unfortunately the boat is already many metres below the surface because
of the inertia in the system.

Don

neverwas

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May 28, 2009, 11:01:21 AM5/28/09
to
>> Guy
> Unfortunately the boat is already many metres below the surface
> because of the inertia in the system.
>

I cannot find the energy involved in sourcing, transporting and applying
reflective paint. Nor the opportunity cost of spending money on that
rather than other options. I can specialist paints make sense where the
energy would otherwise be removed by conventional air conditioning but
for those of us who just pant.....?

In passing, anyone offering odds on the North Koreans arguing that their
nuclear programme is geared to solving global warming by carefully
applied doses of nuclear winter?

--
R


Guy Dawson

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May 28, 2009, 11:06:27 AM5/28/09
to
Donwill > wrote:

>>>> Rather than doing nothing and waiting for the perfect solution we can
>>>> still do something useful...
>>> >
>>> > Guy
>>>
>>> I suggest you go and read James Lovelock's "The Vanishing Face of
>>> Gaia" that could be useful to you.
>>
>> If you're in a sinking boat do you wait to drown or start bailing and
>> look for a plan B?
>>
>> Guy
> Unfortunately the boat is already many metres below the surface because
> of the inertia in the system.

So it's not worth trying to swim up towards the surface?

Guy

Owain

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May 28, 2009, 11:23:03 AM5/28/09
to
Fredxx wrote:
> It's not a coincidence that the suns energy is concentrated in the visible
> spectrum. The peak is in fact at green.

Don't you mean it's not a coincidence that our visual receptors are
optimised to the sun's peak output?

Owain


Message has been deleted

PeterC

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May 28, 2009, 12:54:53 PM5/28/09
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On Thu, 28 May 2009 17:07:44 +0100, damdu...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

> On Thu, 28 May 2009 13:57:15 +0100, PeterC
> <giraffe...@homecall.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 28 May 2009 11:05:49 GMT, Stuart Noble wrote:
>>
>>> Guy Dawson wrote:
>>>> Stuart Noble wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> If the sunlight could be reflected back into space by white surfaces then
>>>> we'd help slow global warming.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.climateark.org/shared/reader/welcome.aspx?linkid=128556
>>>>
>>>> Guy
>>>> -- --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Guy Dawson I.T. Manager Crossflight Ltd
>>>> gn...@crossflight.co.uk
>>>
>>> White tarmac too maybe.
>>
>>With black lines?
>

> A negative point against the idea would be having to repaint all the
> Zebra crossings.
>
> G.Harman

yeah - white and black.

The Medway Handyman

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May 28, 2009, 1:49:20 PM5/28/09
to
Stuart Noble wrote:
> Guy Dawson wrote:
>> Stuart Noble wrote:
>>
>>> You need insulation between the rafters if you want the loft cool in
>>> summer.
>>
>> It's not so much the keeping the loft cool but the reflection of
>> sunlight back into space to avoid heating the atmosphere.
>>
>> Prof Chu's point is that a lot of solar heating is caused by building
>> being heated by the sun and radiating the heat back into the
>> atmosphere. If the sunlight could be reflected back into space by white
>> surfaces
>> then we'd help slow global warming.

>
> White tarmac too maybe.

HTF are you going to keep that clean? :-)


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk


geoff

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May 28, 2009, 3:51:20 PM5/28/09
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In message <gvm1h4$72j$1...@south.jnrs.ja.net>, Bob Mannix
<b1o...@mannix.org.uk> writes
Now, where have all those old CDs gone ?

--
geoff

nightjar

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May 28, 2009, 4:26:26 PM5/28/09
to

"Guy Dawson" <gn...@cuillin.org.uk> wrote in message
news:bGqTl.291659$HA3.1...@newsfe01.ams2...

>I see that Prof Chu says we should paint our roofs white to help combat
> climate change.
>
> We have a 1930s semi with a normal pitches roof with dark grey concrete
> tiles on it. It sure does get hot in the loft during the summer.
>
> Any recommendations as to what I can use to paint (I assume) the tiles
> white?

Cover it with aluminium foil - more reflective and it will keep the Martian
mind control rays out too.

Colin Bignell


The Natural Philosopher

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May 28, 2009, 4:27:27 PM5/28/09
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Bwahahah

In the Mojave desert maybe. Not in e.g.Accrington...

Jules

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May 28, 2009, 5:14:58 PM5/28/09
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On Thu, 28 May 2009 15:22:06 +0100, Guy Dawson wrote:
> If you're in a sinking boat do you wait to drown or start bailing and
> look for a plan B?

The trick is presumably to not be so busy bailing that you miss plan B
altogether :)


Jules

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May 28, 2009, 5:18:06 PM5/28/09
to
On Thu, 28 May 2009 09:33:59 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> Guy Dawson wrote:
>> I see that Prof Chu says we should paint our roofs white to help combat
>> climate change.
>>
>> We have a 1930s semi with a normal pitches roof with dark grey concrete
>> tiles on it. It sure does get hot in the loft during the summer.
>>
>

> I want to paint all my trees white. Is this what god invented birdshit for?

Hmm, so I'm already doing my bit by having so many silver birch?


Donwill

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May 28, 2009, 11:48:33 PM5/28/09
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Hope springs eternal..............

Grimly Curmudgeon

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May 29, 2009, 1:10:47 AM5/29/09
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We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Guy Dawson <gn...@cuillin.org.uk>
saying something like:

>I see that Prof Chu says we should paint our roofs white to help combat
>climate change.

Paint your bottom blue and have done with it.
I'm sure that would be as much use.

dennis@home

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May 29, 2009, 2:57:36 AM5/29/09
to

"Guy Dawson" <gn...@crossflight.co.uk> wrote in message
news:c6xTl.343557$y17.3...@newsfe11.ams2...
>

> So it's not worth us doing anything?

Not if saving the planet is your goal.


What people appear to forget is that we are in an ice age and the normal
climate of the Earth is about 15C higher than it is now.

It goes much colder too.
We just happen to have evolved during one of the bits in-between.

nightjar

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May 29, 2009, 3:37:19 AM5/29/09
to

"Guy Dawson" <gn...@crossflight.co.uk> wrote in message
news:aGvTl.44600$TE3....@newsfe13.ams2...
...

> Rather than doing nothing and waiting for the perfect solution we can
> still do something useful...

However, painting our roofs white is not doing something useful. We would
need to cover a lot more of the planet with cities before their colour
became significant.

Colin Bignell.


Fredxx

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May 29, 2009, 5:25:21 AM5/29/09
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"Owain" <owain...@stirlingcity.coo.uk> wrote in message
news:94KdnZ77Nu2-LoPX...@brightview.co.uk...

I thought that's what I said? Visible impies our visual receptors have a
sensitivity.


Fredxx

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May 29, 2009, 5:29:35 AM5/29/09
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"nightjar .me.uk>" <cpb@<insert my surname here> wrote in message
news:T9adnSnhoK82DYLX...@giganews.com...

I don't know, but at the same time, I haven't seen any figures which relate
a Kg of CO2 to KW of atmospheric heat retention.

Given than the sun's energy falling on a roof top is around 1KW, a white
roof can contribute a significant return of sunlight back into space, and
potential cooling of the ground and consequently, the atmosphere.


Mark

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May 29, 2009, 5:59:15 AM5/29/09
to

I thought that the painting roofs white theory had been debunked? I
guess Prof Chu has shares in Dulux.

--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Owing to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking most articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.

Bob Mannix

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May 29, 2009, 6:05:26 AM5/29/09
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"Mark" <i...@dontgetlotsofspamanymore.net> wrote in message
news:4ccv159ve16qsv30t...@4ax.com...

Oh I wasn't supporting his theory in general - there aren't enough roofs
but, if there were, I was commenting on the principle of white rather than
dark, which is correct.

Man at B&Q

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May 29, 2009, 8:01:34 AM5/29/09
to
On May 28, 5:54 pm, PeterC <giraffenos....@homecall.co.uk> wrote:

> On Thu, 28 May 2009 17:07:44 +0100, damduck-...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > On Thu, 28 May 2009 13:57:15 +0100, PeterC
> > <giraffenos....@homecall.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >>On Thu, 28 May 2009 11:05:49 GMT, Stuart Noble wrote:
>
> >>> Guy Dawson wrote:
> >>>> Stuart Noble wrote:
>
> >>>> If the sunlight could be reflected back into space by white surfaces then
> >>>> we'd help slow global warming.
>
> >>>>http://www.climateark.org/shared/reader/welcome.aspx?linkid=128556
>
> >>>> Guy
> >>>> -- --------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>> Guy Dawson                    I.T. Manager              Crossflight Ltd
> >>>> gn...@crossflight.co.uk
>
> >>> White tarmac too maybe.
>
> >>With black lines?
>
> > A negative point against the idea would be having to repaint all the
> > Zebra crossings.
>
> > G.Harman
>
> yeah - white and black.

Change to Tiger crossings and save on the black paint.

MBQ

Man at B&Q

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May 29, 2009, 8:03:46 AM5/29/09
to
On May 29, 10:25 am, "Fredxx" <fre...@spam.com> wrote:
> "Owain" <owain47...@stirlingcity.coo.uk> wrote in message

No, you implied that the cause and effect were reversed.

MBQ

Man at B&Q

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May 29, 2009, 8:06:39 AM5/29/09
to
On May 29, 8:37 am, "nightjar" <cpb@<insert my surname here>.me.uk>
wrote:

But it might help reduce the heat island effect in existing cities. At
least then we can get realistic measurements of temperature trends.

MBQ

Man at B&Q

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May 29, 2009, 8:08:12 AM5/29/09
to
On May 28, 8:02 am, Guy Dawson <gn...@cuillin.org.uk> wrote:
> I see that Prof Chu says we should paint our roofs white to help combat
> climate change.
>
> We have a 1930s semi with a normal pitches roof with dark grey concrete
> tiles on it. It sure does get hot in the loft during the summer.
>
> Any recommendations as to what I can use to paint (I assume) the tiles
> white?

What about a giant one of these http://www.shadesails.co.uk/ ?

MBQ


John Rumm

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May 29, 2009, 8:15:47 AM5/29/09
to

Pressure washer with a *long* hose powered by a solar panel pointed at
all the white roof tops. ;-)

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

Guy Dawson

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May 29, 2009, 2:42:41 PM5/29/09
to
Bob Mannix wrote:
> "Mark" <i...@dontgetlotsofspamanymore.net> wrote in message

>> I thought that the painting roofs white theory had been debunked? I


>> guess Prof Chu has shares in Dulux.
>>
>
> Oh I wasn't supporting his theory in general - there aren't enough roofs
> but, if there were, I was commenting on the principle of white rather than
> dark, which is correct.

Painting roofs white is not, on it's own, going to stop let alone reverse
global warming. Prof Chu's says that it would counter act 11 years worth
of vehicle emissions. It's relatively easy, low tech, action that can
be done so why not do it? There's no one big solution that is going to
solve global warming. We're going to have to do lots of things to make
a big effect.

He's just been appointed US energy secretary so I hope he's got some
good ideas!

geoff

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May 29, 2009, 2:47:01 PM5/29/09
to
In message <4a1f5b09$1...@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com>, Donwill writes

>Guy Dawson wrote:
>> Donwill > wrote:
>>
>>>>>> Rather than doing nothing and waiting for the perfect solution we
>>>>>>
>>>>>> still do something useful...
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Guy
>>>>>
>>>>> I suggest you go and read James Lovelock's "The Vanishing Face of
>>>>>Gaia" that could be useful to you.
>>>>
>>>> If you're in a sinking boat do you wait to drown or start bailing and
>>>> look for a plan B?
>>>>
>>>> Guy
>>> Unfortunately the boat is already many metres below the surface
>>>because of the inertia in the system.
>> So it's not worth trying to swim up towards the surface?
>>
>Hope springs eternal..............

Spes Durat Avorum - my old school motto


--
geoff

Guy Dawson

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May 29, 2009, 3:09:22 PM5/29/09
to
Man at B&Q wrote:
> On May 29, 8:37 am, "nightjar" <cpb@<insert my surname here>.me.uk>
> wrote:
>> "Guy Dawson" <gn...@crossflight.co.uk> wrote in message
>>
>> news:aGvTl.44600$TE3....@newsfe13.ams2...
>> ...
>>
>>> Rather than doing nothing and waiting for the perfect solution we can
>>> still do something useful...
>> However, painting our roofs white is not doing something useful. We would
>> need to cover a lot more of the planet with cities before their colour
>> became significant.
>>
>> Colin Bignell.
>
> But it might help reduce the heat island effect in existing cities.

That too.

> At least then we can get realistic measurements of temperature trends.

Temperature readings are taken in lots of places other than cities. That's
partly how we know about the heat island effect.

Donwill

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May 30, 2009, 2:33:06 AM5/30/09
to
> Spes Durat Avorum - my old school motto.


The problem is, as I see it, is:- As long as people think they can solve the

problem by small fruitless gestures,the tendency is that they will not
face up

to the real problem and that is overpopulation. People need to be
convinced by

propaganda, advertising, the hard sell, call it what you like, that
having a large

family is a no no.

I know that it goes against religous beleifs which are very difficult to
modify, but we have to try.
This is where your old school motto
"SPES DURAT AVORUM" should apply. It seems to me that the one
overwhelming factor is the control of population. YET there seems to be
none, or very little efforts in this direction.

I am not against striving, but it needs to be channeled in a fruitfull
direction not wasted on mickey mouse schemes based on the Blue Peter
school of engineering.

Don

The Medway Handyman

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May 30, 2009, 4:15:15 AM5/30/09
to
John Rumm wrote:
> The Medway Handyman wrote:
>> Stuart Noble wrote:
>>> Guy Dawson wrote:
>>>> Stuart Noble wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> You need insulation between the rafters if you want the loft cool
>>>>> in summer.
>>>> It's not so much the keeping the loft cool but the reflection of
>>>> sunlight back into space to avoid heating the atmosphere.
>>>>
>>>> Prof Chu's point is that a lot of solar heating is caused by
>>>> building being heated by the sun and radiating the heat back into
>>>> the atmosphere. If the sunlight could be reflected back into space
>>>> by white surfaces
>>>> then we'd help slow global warming.
>>
>>> White tarmac too maybe.
>>
>> HTF are you going to keep that clean? :-)
>
> Pressure washer with a *long* hose powered by a solar panel pointed at
> all the white roof tops. ;-)
>

Long hose no probs, how big a panel we gonna need for a 2.9kW induction
motor?

geoff

unread,
May 30, 2009, 6:24:10 AM5/30/09
to
In message <4a20d319$1...@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com>, Donwill writes

>geoff wrote:
>> In message <4a1f5b09$1...@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com>, Donwill writes
>>> Guy Dawson wrote:
>>>> Donwill > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>>> Rather than doing nothing and waiting for the perfect solution we
>>>>>>>> still do something useful...
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Guy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I suggest you go and read James Lovelock's "The Vanishing Face
>>>>>>>of Gaia" that could be useful to you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you're in a sinking boat do you wait to drown or start bailing and
>>>>>> look for a plan B?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Guy
>>>>> Unfortunately the boat is already many metres below the surface
>>>>>because of the inertia in the system.
>>>> So it's not worth trying to swim up towards the surface?
>>>>
>>> Hope springs eternal..............
>> Spes Durat Avorum - my old school motto.
>
>
>The problem is, as I see it, is:- As long as people think they can solve the
>
> problem by small fruitless gestures,

You're a newbie here - hardly an argument which hasn't been done to
death here on many occasions

>the tendency is that they will not face up
>
> to the real problem and that is overpopulation. People need to be
>convinced by
>
>propaganda, advertising, the hard sell, call it what you like, that
>having a large
>
> family is a no no.
>
>I know that it goes against religous beleifs which are very difficult
>to modify, but we have to try.
> This is where your old school motto
>"SPES DURAT AVORUM" should apply. It seems to me that the one
>overwhelming factor is the control of population. YET there seems to be
>none, or very little efforts in this direction.
>

Err ...
I've been banging on about it for years (I have no kids of my own, but
two by marriage)

I can immediately think of three countries with massive populations

china - one child policy
India - coercive sterilisation
Indonesia (dua anak cukup - two children are enough)

which have tried to control their population growth, with varying
degrees of success


--
geoff

Donwill

unread,
May 30, 2009, 12:34:05 PM5/30/09
to
geoff wrote:
> In message <4a20d319$1...@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com>, Donwill writes
>> geoff wrote:
>>> In message <4a1f5b09$1...@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com>, Donwill writes
>>>> Guy Dawson wrote:
>>>>> Donwill > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Rather than doing nothing and waiting for the perfect solution we
>>>>>>>>> still do something useful...
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > Guy
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I suggest you go and read James Lovelock's "The Vanishing Face
>>>>>>>> of Gaia" that could be useful to you.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you're in a sinking boat do you wait to drown or start bailing
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> look for a plan B?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Guy
>>>>>> Unfortunately the boat is already many metres below the surface
>>>>>> because of the inertia in the system.
>>>>> So it's not worth trying to swim up towards the surface?
>>>>>
>>>> Hope springs eternal..............
>>> Spes Durat Avorum - my old school motto.
>>
>>
>> The problem is, as I see it, is:- As long as people think they can
>> solve the
>>
>> problem by small fruitless gestures,
>
> You're a newbie here, is that so? and does that prohibit me from commenting?

Actually I've contributed to this group and others under a few
different names over the years.

i.e Eurwil, Lodiehr and a few others, I tried to look them up on
google archive but failed.


- hardly an argument which hasn't been done to

> death here on many occasions.
It is very important to get the media and people in general to discuss
the matter, so the more times it's mentioned the better I think.There
seems to be a Media block on the subject.


>
>> the tendency is that they will not face up
>>
>> to the real problem and that is overpopulation. People need to be
>> convinced by
>>
>> propaganda, advertising, the hard sell, call it what you like, that
>> having a large
>>
>> family is a no no.
>>
>> I know that it goes against religous beleifs which are very difficult
>> to modify, but we have to try.
>> This is where your old school motto
>> "SPES DURAT AVORUM" should apply. It seems to me that the one
>> overwhelming factor is the control of population. YET there seems to
>> be none, or very little efforts in this direction.
>>
>
> Err ...

> I've been banging on about it for years.

Well good for you son, keep at it.

(I have no kids of my own, but
> two by marriage)

>
> I can immediately think of three countries with massive populations
>
> china - one child policy
> India - coercive sterilisation
> Indonesia (dua anak cukup - two children are enough)
>
> which have tried to control their population growth, with varying

> degrees of success.
At least they've tried, and we must get people talking about it.


Don

John Rumm

unread,
May 30, 2009, 4:10:48 PM5/30/09
to

The size of a small village ought to do it! (or one could sue John
Prescott as a "pair'a'bollock" reflector)

John Rumm

unread,
May 30, 2009, 4:43:47 PM5/30/09
to
Donwill > wrote:

> At least they've tried, and we must get people talking about it.

Given the birth rate in the UK is below the sustainability point anyway,
is this an issue here? (our fastest growing sector of population is the
"oldest old".

Mark

unread,
Jun 1, 2009, 4:17:29 AM6/1/09
to
On Fri, 29 May 2009 19:42:41 +0100, Guy Dawson <gn...@cuillin.org.uk>
wrote:

>Bob Mannix wrote:
>> "Mark" <i...@dontgetlotsofspamanymore.net> wrote in message
>
>>> I thought that the painting roofs white theory had been debunked? I
>>> guess Prof Chu has shares in Dulux.
>>>
>>
>> Oh I wasn't supporting his theory in general - there aren't enough roofs
>> but, if there were, I was commenting on the principle of white rather than
>> dark, which is correct.
>
>Painting roofs white is not, on it's own, going to stop let alone reverse
>global warming. Prof Chu's says that it would counter act 11 years worth
>of vehicle emissions. It's relatively easy, low tech, action that can
>be done so why not do it? There's no one big solution that is going to
>solve global warming. We're going to have to do lots of things to make
>a big effect.

I wonder how much environmental damage would be caused by the
production & distribution of all that white paint?

Man at B&Q

unread,
Jun 1, 2009, 10:58:34 AM6/1/09
to
On May 29, 8:09 pm, Guy Dawson <gn...@cuillin.org.uk> wrote:
> Man at B&Q wrote:
> > On May 29, 8:37 am, "nightjar" <cpb@<insert my surname here>.me.uk>
> > wrote:
> >> "Guy Dawson" <gn...@crossflight.co.uk> wrote in message
>
> >>news:aGvTl.44600$TE3....@newsfe13.ams2...
> >> ...
>
> >>> Rather than doing nothing and waiting for the perfect solution we can
> >>> still do something useful...
> >> However, painting our roofs white is not doing something useful. We would
> >> need to cover a lot more of the planet with cities before their colour
> >> became significant.
>
> >> Colin Bignell.
>
> > But it might help reduce the heat island effect in existing cities.
>
> That too.
>
> > At least then we can get realistic measurements of temperature trends.
>
> Temperature readings are taken in lots of places other than cities. That's
> partly how we know about the heat island effect.

Yeh, it's also why a lot of readings cannot be trusted as they don't
come with data on how the local environment has changed over the
years.

MBQ


Mike

unread,
Jun 5, 2009, 5:48:34 PM6/5/09
to
On Thu, 28 May 2009 21:27:27 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
<t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>meow...@care2.com wrote:
>
>> solar warm air heating can be installed for hundreds of pounds, and
>> pays back ok if sufficiently well designed.
>>
>>
>> NT
>Bwahahah
>
>In the Mojave desert maybe. Not in e.g.Accrington...

Is the wrong answer.


--

Andy Dingley

unread,
Jun 5, 2009, 7:41:04 PM6/5/09
to
On 28 May, 21:27, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid>
wrote:
> meow2...@care2.com wrote:

> > solar warm air heating can be installed for hundreds of pounds, and
> > pays back ok if sufficiently well designed.

> In the Mojave desert maybe. Not in e.g.Accrington...

Works in Canada too, via the chap in rec.woodworking who builds and
sells the things commercially.

The Natural Philosopher

unread,
Jun 6, 2009, 1:27:02 AM6/6/09
to

I never said it didnt WORK. Just that it 'pays back OK'. Is a false
statement.


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