expanding foam alone for fixing UPVC windows in place?
AL_n
I used was expanding foam from a can. I never had any problems.
Now i am about to install another on the first floor of slightly wind-prone
gable end. Is expanding foam alone sufficient for fixng frame in place?
TIA
Al
Charles
You are joking right? :-) I hope the ones you installed are not high up
and you kill someone.
C.
Dave Liquorice
> Now i am about to install another on the first floor of slightly
> wind-prone gable end.
Define "slighly wind-prone", how much the glass in the curent window
flex in reponse to gusts? Our old single glazed and over 3' square
windows would flex about 1/2", t'was rather alarming watching it. The
new 22mm DG units only about 1/4" but they are a different shape
about 1'6" high and 3' wide.
> Is expanding foam alone sufficient for fixng frame in place?
For our windows they have frame fixings. Foam alone in less exposed
locations is probably OK but it will flex and move thus may reduce
the life of any silicone to building joint.
--
Cheers
Dave.
John Rumm
Builders frequently do fix windows with foam (a full circumference bond
of polyurethane adhesive in effect - so very solid fix).
However a few traditional frame fixings helps achieve and maintain the
desired position prior to foaming.
--
Cheers,
John.
/=================================================================\
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\=================================================================/
Tim Watts
It's a recognised method. I don't like it but it's not as unusual as you
think...
I go for frame fixings plus foam - the foam certainly firms it up.
--
Tim Watts
The Natural Philosopher
yes.
> TIA
>
> Al
stuart noble
> On 15/07/2011 15:38, AL_n wrote:
>> I once installed a couiple of UPVC windows, in my house and the ony
>> fixing
>> I used was expanding foam from a can. I never had any problems.
>>
>> Now i am about to install another on the first floor of slightly
>> wind-prone
>> gable end. Is expanding foam alone sufficient for fixng frame in place?
>
> Builders frequently do fix windows with foam (a full circumference bond
> of polyurethane adhesive in effect - so very solid fix).
>
> However a few traditional frame fixings helps achieve and maintain the
> desired position prior to foaming.
>
Usually just wedges that keep the frame in place. Frame fixings, if any,
are done when the foam has cured. At least that's the way all the
fitters I've seen have done it.
Tim Watts
Last pro fitter I same frame fixed then foamed - so it's obviously a matter
of personal preference.
--
Tim Watts
AL_n
@news.albasani.net:
> yes.
It sure saves a lot of faffing about! I wasn't sure about the longevity of
foam though. I know it's a good adhesive when new, but I wonder if it
weakens with age.
Al
AL_n
news:nyyfbegfubjuvyypb...@srv1.howhill.co.uk:
> On 15 Jul 2011 14:38:48 GMT, AL_n wrote:
>
>> Now i am about to install another on the first floor of slightly
>> wind-prone gable end.
>
> Define "slighly wind-prone", how much the glass in the curent window
> flex in reponse to gusts?
I've never noticed the 3-ft square pane in the old window flexing, but then
I never really looked. I know one thing: the frame cannot blow inwards. So
it would have to get sucked outwards, which I is difficult to imagine! I
think the roof tiles would blow away first. I think I'll quit worrying.
Thanks to all for the input,
Al
John Rumm
Its degraded by exposure to UV, so needs to be kept out of the light.
However in this application none of it will remain visible so that's not
a problem.
AL_n
news:8Pudnc2eFpsDEb3T...@brightview.co.uk:
> Its degraded by exposure to UV, so needs to be kept out of the light.
> However in this application none of it will remain visible so that's
> not a problem.
>
Great - thanks.
harry
On small windows probably ok.
However I would put screws in purely as a security issue. It only
takes a bread knife to cut the foam and get in and burgle the place
without. Completely silent too.
Dave Liquorice
>> Define "slighly wind-prone", how much the glass in the curent
window
>> flex in reponse to gusts?
>
> I've never noticed the 3-ft square pane in the old window flexing, but
> then I never really looked.
You probably don't get the winds we do at 1400' and exposed. Gale
Force 8 (above 40mph sustained) happens several times a year gusts
with those are into the low 50's mph. Every so often it'll really
blow F10 55mph sustained gusts above 60mph.
F8 isn't pleasant, rain is painful, hard to stand up and move
sensibly about. F10 with gusts is down right dangerous, you have to
lean so far into the wind that you are unstable, sudden drop in wind
and you bite the dirt. Wind picks back up and you are quite likely to
get bowled over. Needless to say we don't go out unless we have to in
anything much above F7.
The all trees by us the nearby have the windswept curved look...
--
Cheers
Dave.
S Viemeister
Jim K
you assume much - including that "they" know it's worth bothering to
try?!
Jim K
John Rumm
Much depends on frame design, and if it has a front flange etc. With
many modern house designs the windows end up "fixed" to plastic cavity
closers anyway - so there is nothing solid to stick a frame fixing into.
Tim Watts
> On 15/07/2011 19:48, harry wrote:
>> On Jul 15, 3:38 pm, "AL_n"<fgdfg...@fghfghfg.com> wrote:
>>> I once installed a couiple of UPVC windows, in my house and the ony
>>> fixing I used was expanding foam from a can. I never had any problems.
>>>
>>> Now i am about to install another on the first floor of slightly
>>> wind-prone gable end. Is expanding foam alone sufficient for fixng frame
>>> in place?
>>>
>>> TIA
>>>
>>> Al
>>
>> On small windows probably ok.
>> However I would put screws in purely as a security issue. It only
>> takes a bread knife to cut the foam and get in and burgle the place
>> without. Completely silent too.
>
> Much depends on frame design, and if it has a front flange etc. With
> many modern house designs the windows end up "fixed" to plastic cavity
> closers anyway - so there is nothing solid to stick a frame fixing into.
>
Modern cavities are a PITA compared to older ones where the cavity was
closed by a return on the end brick.
--
Tim Watts
AL_n
> On 15 Jul 2011 18:47:47 GMT, AL_n wrote:
I've been at the helm of a 34-ft sloop, exposed to the elements, in a force
9 gale. The waves were about 15ft high. It was exhilerating - especially
since I was only a trainee crew member! The only thing that stopped me
losing my nerve was that the skipper was down below, apprently unconcerned.
I always refer back to that experience when I need to guesstimate strong
wind forces.
Al
AL_n
> The all trees by us the nearby have the windswept curved look...
Same here, as a matter of fact, but they all bend to the North East and the
window in question faces East, so it doesn't get the brunt of what nature
throws at us.
Al
Dave Plowman (News)
'They' glue aircraft together. Using a very much smaller contact area.
Have you ever tried removing foam from brickwork?
--
*If you think this van is dirty, you should try having sex with the driver*
Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
The Natural Philosopher
> In article <4e2055c7$0$2488$db0f...@news.zen.co.uk>,
> Charles <some...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>> On 15/07/2011 15:38, AL_n wrote:
>>> I once installed a couiple of UPVC windows, in my house and the ony fixing
>>> I used was expanding foam from a can. I never had any problems.
>>>
>>> Now i am about to install another on the first floor of slightly wind-prone
>>> gable end. Is expanding foam alone sufficient for fixng frame in place?
>>>
>>> TIA
>>>
>>> Al
>
>> You are joking right? :-) I hope the ones you installed are not high up
>> and you kill someone.
>
> 'They' glue aircraft together. Using a very much smaller contact area.
> Have you ever tried removing foam from brickwork?
>
tension and strength in shear. Glue is often only stressed in
shear..e.g. the classic glued tenon and mortice joint, which is fine
until there is 'rocking' when it fails in tension, not shear.
Which is why gap filling with glue requires a glue strong in tension as
well.
Expanding foam is no particularly strong in tension, but a typical
window frame is not able to rock sufficiently to rip the foam apart,
especially in a rebated frame. And its quite a narrow gap as well.
So its the shear strength that counts. And here the foam elasticity is
an advantage, spreading the stress evenly down the foam line, so there
is no stress concentration ..
I've seen more screwed frames come awry than foamed ones.
Its standard industry practice to as has been said, wedge to get
straight, then foam, then cut back and plaster the inside and mastic the
outside.
In massive trauma situations - explosions - frames do not fly out, they
glass does.
Strong winds will break the glass before they break the foam.
Grimly Curmudgeon
drugs began to take hold. I remember "AL_n" <fgdf...@fghfghfg.com>
saying something like:
>The only thing that stopped me
>losing my nerve was that the skipper was down below, apprently unconcerned.
In other words, not daft enough to be up top. :)
harry
wrote:
> Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> > In article <4e2055c7$0$2488$db0fe...@news.zen.co.uk>,
>
> - Show quoted text -
Probably right that is.
John Rumm
Yup, alas now verboten for thermal bridging reasons. I recall the first
time I saw a modern cavity closer - quite underwhelming it was! Skimpy
bit of plastic with some plasticy foam glued too the back. They are not
cheap either.
andrew
> Yup, alas now verboten for thermal bridging reasons. I recall the first
> time I saw a modern cavity closer - quite underwhelming it was! Skimpy
> bit of plastic with some plasticy foam glued too the back. They are not
> cheap either.
>
Good use for all those 50mm thick xtratherm offcuts from the stud walling
then?
I have a bulk bag of these which I'm loathe to throw in the skip, I have
even considered chucking them through the wood chipper to produce loose
loft insulation.
AJH
John Rumm
Would be easy enough to fabricate - just need a length of something flat
with a lip on one side and stick some insulation to it.
e.g.:
http://www.insulationplace.co.uk/Dacatie-Supafix-100mm-Cavity-Closer.html
I notice you can get thin galvanised metal versions as well...
Tim Watts
My brick-returned closures still have a 3/4" gap with a sheet of DPC in.
Can't imagine it's that much of a thermal bridge - well, no worse that the
double glazed window in the same hole.
The modern system is annoying at it does restrict where the window or door
can go...
--
Tim Watts
Tim Watts
Just wondering - any reason not to foam up th cavity edge with PU expanding?
--
Tim Watts
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george [dicegeorge]
> I once installed a couiple of UPVC windows, in my house and the ony fixing
> I used was expanding foam from a can. I never had any problems.
>
> Now i am about to install another on the first floor of slightly wind-prone
> gable end. Is expanding foam alone sufficient for fixng frame in place?
>
> TIA
>
> Al
there can be a problem where the expansion warps the window framm,
and the sash doesnt close.
some is more waterproof than others.
[g]
Dave Plowman (News)
The foam shouldn't be exposed to water as such. It's just a gap filler and
adhesive. If it's exposed to water it will also likely be exposed to
sunlight, which it doesn't like. I cut it back a bit then run a cement
fillet round the frame which also looks better. Then a bead of silicone
between the fillet and the frame.
--
*If you don't like the news, go out and make some.
Bill
<da...@davenoise.co.uk> writes
>In article <ivujjk$1kic$1...@news.enta.net>,
> george [dicegeorge] <diceg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On 15/07/11 15:38, AL_n wrote:
>> > I once installed a couiple of UPVC windows, in my house and the ony fixing
>> > I used was expanding foam from a can. I never had any problems.
>> >
>> > Now i am about to install another on the first floor of slightly wind-prone
>> > gable end. Is expanding foam alone sufficient for fixng frame in place?
>> >
>> > TIA
>> >
>> > Al
>> some foam expands 10 times, some 2 times,
>> there can be a problem where the expansion warps the window framm,
>> and the sash doesnt close.
>
>> some is more waterproof than others.
>
>The foam shouldn't be exposed to water as such. It's just a gap filler and
>adhesive. If it's exposed to water it will also likely be exposed to
>sunlight, which it doesn't like. I cut it back a bit then run a cement
>fillet round the frame which also looks better. Then a bead of silicone
>between the fillet and the frame.
>
Without going into all the trials and tribulations of some double
glazing I had fitted, here is the quick synopsis.
Howling gales and flexible frames on the windows and patio doors in the
lounge. Filled gaps of up to 1 1/2" with foam all around the frames and
now no gales and everything feels very firm and solid.
That was about 5 years ago and no problems so far, as I was having the
render replaced soon after I foamed then it was all water/sunlight
proofed as Dave suggested.
--
Bill
Dave Plowman (News)
Bill <Bi...@birchnet.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >The foam shouldn't be exposed to water as such. It's just a gap filler and
> >adhesive. If it's exposed to water it will also likely be exposed to
> >sunlight, which it doesn't like. I cut it back a bit then run a cement
> >fillet round the frame which also looks better. Then a bead of silicone
> >between the fillet and the frame.
> >
> Without going into all the trials and tribulations of some double
> glazing I had fitted, here is the quick synopsis.
> Howling gales and flexible frames on the windows and patio doors in the
> lounge. Filled gaps of up to 1 1/2" with foam all around the frames and
> now no gales and everything feels very firm and solid.
> That was about 5 years ago and no problems so far, as I was having the
> render replaced soon after I foamed then it was all water/sunlight
> proofed as Dave suggested.
I've got two large UPV windows self installed (including opening up the
aperture and fitting a new lintel) using the above method. Which IIRC was
in the Screwfix instruction leaflet. The oldest more than 10 years ago -
and absolutely no problems. But I did at first have reservations about how
well foam would hold things. Think it may of been on here I was told not
to worry. ;-)
--
*Consciousness: That annoying time between naps.
John Rumm
Probably not - although it would be harder to ensure consistent
compliance with building regs I suppose. You would also need some flat
material to actually close the gap and leave a nice finish to set the
window into.
John Rumm
Generally it does not "push" that much if constrained. It will only
expand 10 times if free to do so. So over fill a window edge and it will
spill out the gaps, but won't distort the window frame.
Grimly Curmudgeon
<da...@davenoise.co.uk> saying something like:
>Think it may of been on here
Argh!
Not you too!