Quinetic switches are strange

[Jeff Layman]

I have a 2-gang Quinetic switch in the lounge. One side is for the
ceiling light, the other for the wall lights.

One evening about 6 months ago - and 3 months after it was fitted - the
ceiling light side wouldn't work, but the wall light side was ok. The
next morning both sides worked without problem. Last night about 9 pm
the ceiling light again wouldn't come on, but the wall lights were fine.
This morning everything was back to normal again.

I assume there is a very intermittent interfering signal for the ceiling
light side. If so, it must be very specific as it doesn't affect the
wall lights side at the same time. Anyone else seen this, and does
anyone know exactly what radio system Quinetic switches use?

--

Jeff

[Andy Burns]

Jeff Layman wrote:

> I have a 2-gang Quinetic switch in the lounge. One side is for the
> ceiling light, the other for the wall lights.
>
> One evening about 6 months ago - and 3 months after it was fitted - the
> ceiling light side wouldn't work, but the wall light side was ok.

Hmmm, I'm just about to order a 2-gang for dad to be able to control
lights in his garden and pond from the house ... until now I wasn't
concerned about their reliability, just that they were a bit pricey.

> does anyone know exactly what radio system Quinetic switches use?

433MHz, I thought they were EnOcean, but can't see anything to actually
say that...

[Andy Burns]

Andy Burns wrote:

> JI thought they were EnOcean, but can't see anything to actually
> say that...

Seems it is the MK Echo switches that use EnOcean modules, but they are
silly money.

[Paul]

https://www.quinetic.co.uk/products/rf-receiver/

Communication FSK (under 1000 MHz) <=== the beat of the tribal drum

Life Time 200,000 times on/off <=== magic smoke ??? on the *receiver* ???

https://www.quinetic.co.uk/products/wireless-switch/

Communication FSK (under 1000 MHz)

Mechanical Life 60 years

Control Method Pairing with either RF or
Wifi Quinetic Wireless Controller

https://www.electriciansforums.net/threads/quinetic-wireless-switches-sold-by-tlc-any-experience-of-them.141990/

"...manufacturers claims ... indoors (they claim 30M).

This is 400MHz so it's well attenuated by building materials."

"Only issues i have heard of happening is when the switch is too close
to something such as a radio or old tv. for some reason the radiowaves
can block the signals from getting through well.
"

"Very occasionally a "wave" gets blocked, causing the switch to work
in reverse. Easy to fix, just switch off the power and re-pair." <=== Arrgh!

I would think 400MHz (or whatever you use for garage door openers there),
should propagate through a lot of building material. A proper Faraday
cage could stop it.

The video here mentions 433MHz and 2.4GHz for the Wifi option
(whatever that is).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbGA0hoSSCA

OK, here's the tech providing the energy.

https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8052509

"... A prototype BWS IC fabricated with high-voltage 250-nm CMOS
technology was shown to be capable of harvesting a total energy
of 246 μJ from a single button-pressing of a 300-mm
2 lead magnesium niobate-lead titanate PE disc. More than
200 μJ was delivered to the load, sufficient to transmit a
4-B-long message via a 2.4-GHz wireless USB channel over a 10-m distance."

The output stage on yours is different. The message is still
going to be pretty short.

It could also be that the unit is defective, and the energy harvester
isn't working right.

OK, so now we need the most like culprit, in a house chock-full of RF.

Time for that RF sniffer ?

Why can't they design the Receiver, so it tells you
the ambient noise level is high ?

Or maybe it's time for a return to The Clapper :-)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Clapper

I can't even flush my toilet now, without being
an RF engineer...

OK, so what frequency does that PLC you're using
on the wiring use ? Would that be the culprit, local
area flooded by PLC RF ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power-line_communication ?

For Google searches, "Ener-j" as a brand is more effective
than "Quinetic" as a keyword.

Paul

[Jeff Layman]

This says Quinetic wireless grid switch uses 433MHz:
<https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Technical/DataSheets/Quinetic/QUGDMK_Data.pdf>

It adds "To prevent interference the handshake protocol is integrated
with a precise algorithm, a 32-bit address. At every interval
communication protocols are sent three times."

If that is the case for the switch I have, then it is even stranger that
/something/ is interfering with the signal, especially as it so specific
that it only interferes with one of the two gangs. I don't understand
how the interfering signal can affect one 32-bit address and not the
other, as it was obviously doing so over a several minute period while I
tried both switches a few times.

By the way, both receivers are less than 5 metres from the transmuter
with only plasterboard and Rockwall insulation in the way of the radio
signal.

Maybe I'll email Quinetic (I emailed TLC previously) to see if they have
an explanation.

--

Jeff

[Andy Burns]

Jeff Layman wrote:

> It adds "To prevent interference the handshake protocol is integrated
> with a precise algorithm, a 32-bit address. At every interval
> communication protocols are sent three times."
>
> If that is the case for the switch I have, then it is even stranger that
> /something/ is interfering with the signal, especially as it so specific
> that it only interferes with one of the two gangs.

is it a dual receiver you're using, or two single receivers?

if the latter I'd look at the receiver, if the former is it possible one
of the switches isn't "powering" the energy harvester properly?

[Jeff Layman]

It's two single receivers. Apart from those two occasions I mentioned,
both systems have worked faultlessly for over 9 months.

I suppose one thing I could try if it happens again is to change the
pairing so that the current "ceiling" transmitter is paired with the
"wall" receiver, and vice-versa. If the fault changes to the wall
lights, then it's the transmitter playing up, but if it stays with the
ceiling light it'll be the receiver. It's just that to do that means
crawling around the loft and accessing the receivers which are in an
awkward place.

--

Jeff

[Andy Burns]

Jeff Layman wrote:

> It's two single receivers.

I'd look at what is near(er) to the one that's been unresponsive that
might interfere with it, can't see the transmitter getting different
interference depending which ID it's sending.

> Apart from those two occasions I mentioned,
> both systems have worked faultlessly for over 9 months.
>
> I suppose one thing I could try if it happens again is to change the
> pairing so that the current  "ceiling" transmitter is paired with the
> "wall" receiver, and vice-versa. If the fault changes to the wall
> lights, then it's the transmitter playing up, but if it stays with the
> ceiling light it'll be the receiver. It's just that to do that means
> crawling around the loft and accessing the receivers which are in an
> awkward place.

That was sounding like a good plan, until the last sentence ..

[Brian Gaff (Sofa)]

Yes I have one or two that are quirky as well. I'm told that if you have a
local Ham radio operator, they can use near that frequency as its inside the
70cm band, supposedly protected, but who knows how good the receivers are.
Normally a new battery in the hand held unit is the answer but I've got
one socket adaptor that will only work at about 4 inches away.
I'm thinking of going down the Amazon route as they are on the wifi.
Brian

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[Robert]

I use a 2 gang QUinetic switch with a dual receiver. The
only issue I have is one of the switches becoming reversed
occasionally when operating both switches together.
Never had this problem with the single gang switches of which I have a
couple.

[Jeff Layman]

Yes, that's the one thing you won't find mentioned in the Quinetic
advertising/technical blurb! I found out very quickly that it's better
to not turn on (or off) both at the same time in 2-gang switches. It
would be almost impossible to do with well-spaced single gang switches.
It's easily fixed by switching off the lighting circuit at the CU, or
switching the lights off, removing the switch to 100 metres away, and
putting it the way you want it.

--

Jeff

[Theo]

Andy Burns <use...@andyburns.uk> wrote:
> Jeff Layman wrote:
>
> > It's two single receivers.
>
> I'd look at what is near(er) to the one that's been unresponsive that
> might interfere with it, can't see the transmitter getting different
> interference depending which ID it's sending.

There's quite a bit of stuff on 433MHz these days - car keys, garage door
openers, tank monitors, remote controls for lots of things... the
modulation seems quite basic and I wouldn't be surprised if it gets trampled
on by some other device on the band.

Theo