Double/Triple outlet shaver sockets

[GB]

I am pretty sure that this has been asked before, but perhaps things
have changed.

Is it possible to get a bathroom shaver socket with multiple outlets
that can be used at the same time? At the moment, I am simply looking
at installing 2 or 3 separate sockets, but it would be much neater if
this could all be contained in one box. I appreciate that each socket
will need its own isolating transformer. There seems to be a small gap
in the market here.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <5313132f$0$1420$5b6a...@news.zen.co.uk>,

How often do you get two people shaving at the same time? ;-)

--
*Forget the Joneses, I keep us up with the Simpsons.

Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[GB]

On 02/03/2014 12:11, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> In article <5313132f$0$1420$5b6a...@news.zen.co.uk>,
> GB <NOTso...@microsoft.com> wrote:
>> I am pretty sure that this has been asked before, but perhaps things
>> have changed.
>
>> Is it possible to get a bathroom shaver socket with multiple outlets
>> that can be used at the same time? At the moment, I am simply looking
>> at installing 2 or 3 separate sockets, but it would be much neater if
>> this could all be contained in one box. I appreciate that each socket
>> will need its own isolating transformer. There seems to be a small gap
>> in the market here.
>
> How often do you get two people shaving at the same time? ;-)
>

We have two electric toothbrushes, plus a waterpik. At the moment, I
seems to be constantly juggling the plugs around.

[Brian Gaff]

I've always been mystified about bathroom shaver sockets etc. Why would one
need seperate transformers? also if this is needed why do they sell shaver
adaptors that convert 13amp outlets to shaver adaptors without a
transformer. After all you find such sockets in Kitchens, and kitchens have
water as well as batchrooms.

Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
"GB" <NOTso...@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:5313132f$0$1420$5b6a...@news.zen.co.uk...

[ARW]

"Brian Gaff" <brian...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:lev8tj$91s$1...@dont-email.me...

> I've always been mystified about bathroom shaver sockets etc. Why would
> one need seperate transformers? also if this is needed why do they sell
> shaver adaptors that convert 13amp outlets to shaver adaptors without a
> transformer. After all you find such sockets in Kitchens, and kitchens
> have water as well as batchrooms.

Kitchens tend not to have naked wet people in them.

--
Adam

[David.WE.Roberts]

Just wire all 3 into one plug?

<Gets coat>

Cheers

Dave R

[Andy Bartlett]

"GB" <NOTso...@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:5313132f$0$1420$5b6a...@news.zen.co.uk...

MK do a double shaver/toothbrush socket - K701

http://tinyurl.com/kgnbr2p

Andy

[Tricky Dicky]

Brian I think the difference is that in a kitchen you may have your hands wet whilst handling electrical equipment, whereas in a bathroom you could be standing stark bollock naked wet all over in a pool of water in a cast iron bath like a lightening conductor providing a perfect route to earth.

Back to OP, most of the shaver sockets provide a 230v and 115v socket and most shavers and toothbrushes will happily operate on either so you can plug two devices in.

Richard

[ARW]

"Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:53e211e...@davenoise.co.uk...

> In article <5313132f$0$1420$5b6a...@news.zen.co.uk>,
> GB <NOTso...@microsoft.com> wrote:
>> I am pretty sure that this has been asked before, but perhaps things
>> have changed.
>
>> Is it possible to get a bathroom shaver socket with multiple outlets
>> that can be used at the same time? At the moment, I am simply looking
>> at installing 2 or 3 separate sockets, but it would be much neater if
>> this could all be contained in one box. I appreciate that each socket
>> will need its own isolating transformer. There seems to be a small gap
>> in the market here.
>
> How often do you get two people shaving at the same time? ;-)

Well there was last night........
--
Adam

[GB]

Most of the dual voltage ones will only operate one of the sockets at a
time.

[Gazz]

"ARW" <adamwa...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:lev9eh$cc3$1...@dont-email.me...

And i thought you were a 'modern' type of bloke, you havent lived till
you've done it on the cooker top... tho she did moan about the imprints from
the pan stands in her arse for weeks after :)

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <lev9eh$cc3$1...@dont-email.me>,

Well there was last night........

--

*Jokes about German sausage are the wurst.*

[Robin]

> Back to OP, most of the shaver sockets provide a 230v and 115v socket
> and most shavers and toothbrushes will happily operate on either so
> you can plug two devices in.
>

Buying alert: sadly no longer true of Oral B toothbrushes as we
discovered with the warranty replacement Triumph 5000 we received last
year for a 4000 which was dual voltage. Braun seem to have stopped
selling dual voltage (other than the Pulsonic range) despite the many
complaints from both sides of the pond.

--
Robin
reply to address is (meant to be) valid

[Andy Burns]

Tricky Dicky wrote:

> most of the shaver sockets provide a 230v and 115v socket and most
> shavers and toothbrushes will happily operate on either so you can
> plug two devices in.

I think the MK ones (perhaps others too) switch off the 230V socket when
you plug into the 115V one, and vice-versa.

[dennis@home]

Well you should have turned the gas off first!

[harryagain]

"ARW" <adamwa...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message

news:levab6$hl8$1...@dont-email.me...

You realise you are dicing with death?

[charles]

In article <53e211e...@davenoise.co.uk>,

Dave Plowman (News) <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <5313132f$0$1420$5b6a...@news.zen.co.uk>,
> GB <NOTso...@microsoft.com> wrote:
> > I am pretty sure that this has been asked before, but perhaps things
> > have changed.

> > Is it possible to get a bathroom shaver socket with multiple outlets
> > that can be used at the same time? At the moment, I am simply looking
> > at installing 2 or 3 separate sockets, but it would be much neater if
> > this could all be contained in one box. I appreciate that each socket
> > will need its own isolating transformer. There seems to be a small gap
> > in the market here.

> How often do you get two people shaving at the same time? ;-)

but you might want to charge two toothbrushes at the same time.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <53e21a03...@charleshope.demon.co.uk>,

charles <cha...@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > How often do you get two people shaving at the same time? ;-)

> but you might want to charge two toothbrushes at the same time.

Then you don't need transformer isolated sockets.

--
*Of course I'm against sin; I'm against anything that I'm too old to enjoy.

[Roger Mills]

Even yours? <g>
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

[Roger Mills]

I've got a 2-pin 3-way adapter which I think I bought in Indonesia.
Dunno whether you can get them here. I've only ever used two outlets at
a time - for a mains radio and charging a toothbrush - but I don't see
why it wouldn't run an electric razor at the same time if I were to use one.

[Adam Funk]

Coincidentally, I used to know a naturist electrician.

[fred]

In article <3ficuax...@news.ducksburg.com>, Adam Funk
<a24...@ducksburg.com> writes

Let me guess, the customers were completely unphased :-?
--
fred
it's a ba-na-na . . . .

[Michael Chare]

On 02/03/2014 11:17, GB wrote:

Google for:

EU Europe 240v mains socket splitter 1x Schuko plug to 2x Europlug sockets

It might work!


--
Michael Chare

[GB]

I take it that that is not approved for UK bathrooms?

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <531463ef$0$1425$5b6a...@news.zen.co.uk>,

GB <NOTso...@microsoft.com> wrote:
> > EU Europe 240v mains socket splitter 1x Schuko plug to 2x Europlug
> > sockets
> >
> > It might work!
> >

> I take it that that is not approved for UK bathrooms?

Do the regs requiring a galvanic isolated supply in a bathroom still apply
where RCD house protection exists? At least some regs have been changed
with this.

--
*If your feet smell and your nose runs, you're built upside down.

[bert]

In message <levdvq$67l$1...@dont-email.me>, Gazz <no...@m.ta> writes

That's why they've introduced touch controls instead of knobs.
--
bert

[meow...@care2.com]

On Monday, March 3, 2014 11:16:22 AM UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> In article <531463ef$0$1425$5b6a...@news.zen.co.uk>,
> GB <NOTso...@microsoft.com> wrote:

> > > EU Europe 240v mains socket splitter 1x Schuko plug to 2x Europlug
> > > sockets
> > >
> > > It might work!
> > >
> > I take it that that is not approved for UK bathrooms?
> Do the regs requiring a galvanic isolated supply in a bathroom still apply
> where RCD house protection exists? At least some regs have been changed
> with this.

When an iso transformer is fed from rcd, its secondary output has no rcd protection. Connecting 3 items to one ouput does therefore increase the shock risk some.

It might be easier to plug tghe toothbrushes into a simple adaptor outside the bathroom.


NT

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <456ffd11-bc2a-4207...@googlegroups.com>,

<meow...@care2.com> wrote:
> > Do the regs requiring a galvanic isolated supply in a bathroom still apply
> > where RCD house protection exists? At least some regs have been changed
> > with this.

> When an iso transformer is fed from rcd, its secondary output has no rcd
> protection. Connecting 3 items to one ouput does therefore increase the
> shock risk some.

Which was why I asked if transformer isolated shaver sockets are still
required on a new build with RCD protection.

BTW, I used to work in TV studios, and before RCDs any non 'approved'
mains equipment - like say a musicians' amplifier - was always fed via an
isolating transformer. And each such amplifier had its own transformer -
no sharing allowed. The reason being simple. If you parallel two bits of
gear from the same transformer, and one has an 'L1' to case short, the
other an 'L2' to case short and you touch both you get the full 240v. Now
obviously two such faults are rare, but you have to allow for them.

> It might be easier to plug tghe toothbrushes into a simple adaptor
> outside the bathroom.

I have a charging 'station' in the tank cupboard in my bathroom.

--
*Why do psychics have to ask you for your name? *

[Johny B Good]

On Tue, 04 Mar 2014 10:14:52 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
<da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

>In article <456ffd11-bc2a-4207...@googlegroups.com>,
> <meow...@care2.com> wrote:
>> > Do the regs requiring a galvanic isolated supply in a bathroom still apply
>> > where RCD house protection exists? At least some regs have been changed
>> > with this.
>
>> When an iso transformer is fed from rcd, its secondary output has no rcd
>> protection. Connecting 3 items to one ouput does therefore increase the
>> shock risk some.
>
>Which was why I asked if transformer isolated shaver sockets are still
>required on a new build with RCD protection.
>
>BTW, I used to work in TV studios, and before RCDs any non 'approved'
>mains equipment - like say a musicians' amplifier - was always fed via an
>isolating transformer. And each such amplifier had its own transformer -
>no sharing allowed. The reason being simple. If you parallel two bits of
>gear from the same transformer, and one has an 'L1' to case short, the
>other an 'L2' to case short and you touch both you get the full 240v. Now
>obviously two such faults are rare, but you have to allow for them.
>
>> It might be easier to plug tghe toothbrushes into a simple adaptor
>> outside the bathroom.
>
>I have a charging 'station' in the tank cupboard in my bathroom.

I know of no electric toothbrushes that use a direct galvanic
connection to the mains. They're either battery powered using
disposable primary cells (AA) or else chargable from an inductive
charging stand so you can discount the 110v toothbrush shock hazard.

This leaves (as it says on the tin) just the question of mains
powered shavers. In this case, as per the guitar amplifiers, there
remains the unlikely possibility of two people both using electric
shavers from a twin outlet shaver socket recieving an electric shock
via body contact _and_ both shavers being faulty as well.

The voltage hazard in this case being 110v, far less likely to prove
fatal (especially in this case of a "Buddy System" where it's more
than likely that at least one of the victims will shrug off the
effects quickly enough to assist the other).

If I was fitting such a shaver socket, I'd choose the much safer
option of a transformer that uses a centre tapped secondary winding
with the centre tap connected to earth. This limits the max live to
earth voltage to a mere 55vac rms, much less hazardous again.

It's still true that two people shaving from a double outlet
connected to such a transformer could, in the right (wrong?)
circumstances still experience a 110v shock (i.e. no worse than
before) but the more likely fault when only a single person is shaving
will reduce the shock voltage wrt earth.

The only way for someone to recieve a full 110v live to live shock
would be for the shaver to 'fall apart in their hand' exposing them to
two close spaced points of contact in said appendage with most of the
current confined to the local area. Any residual current across the
chest because they had been using their other hand to keep a tight
grip on a handy earthed 'grab rail' would be considerably reduced over
what they would experience with a simple 55vac live contact and no
worse (other than as a brief transient event when 'letting go').

I don't know what the VA requirements are for a typical shaver but
I'd imagine a single 50VA isolating transformer with centre tapped
110v secondary could power 2 or 3 shaver sockets wired in parallel
(once you're using the 'safe option' of a 55-0-55 vac transformer - if
it's good enough to allow the use of 110v power tools on an exposed to
the elements building site, it's equally as good for 'wet room' use),
there's no point in trying to galvanically isolate the sockets by
providing a seperate transformer for each.

If you want to make the system even safer by guarding against such
unintended live to live contacts between the sockets, you could go to
the expense of individual RCD breakers in each live feed (seperate
transformers won't make this any simpler) which, on the face of it
would require 6 such breakers for three sockets (there may interlocked
3 socket RCD/ELCB modules available, specifically for this usage case
but I doubt it).

Let's face it, it's only "Darwin Award Seekers" who are at risk of
the 'worse case 110v shock hazard scenario where the idiot in question
fails to notice that the shaver casing is on the point of 'exploding
in his hand' due to broken/damaged casing retention clips/missing
screws (and, at a mere 110v, the 'candidate' is unlikely to suffer
electrocution even then).
--
Regards, J B Good

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <gebbh9hu5dnh8paqt...@4ax.com>,

Johny B Good <johnny...@invalid.ntlworld.com> wrote:
> I know of no electric toothbrushes that use a direct galvanic
> connection to the mains. They're either battery powered using
> disposable primary cells (AA) or else chargable from an inductive
> charging stand so you can discount the 110v toothbrush shock hazard.

The first electric toothbrushes I saw were the same as a mains razor - no
batteries.

> This leaves (as it says on the tin) just the question of mains
> powered shavers. In this case, as per the guitar amplifiers, there
> remains the unlikely possibility of two people both using electric
> shavers from a twin outlet shaver socket recieving an electric shock
> via body contact _and_ both shavers being faulty as well.

The whole idea of safety measures like this is to provide for all possible
eventualities.

> The voltage hazard in this case being 110v, far less likely to prove
> fatal (especially in this case of a "Buddy System" where it's more
> than likely that at least one of the victims will shrug off the
> effects quickly enough to assist the other).

110v? Most UK transformer isolated outlets are dual voltage - but you'd
have to assume the worst, ie the 240v one will be used. otherwise, why
provide it?

> If I was fitting such a shaver socket, I'd choose the much safer
> option of a transformer that uses a centre tapped secondary winding
> with the centre tap connected to earth. This limits the max live to
> earth voltage to a mere 55vac rms, much less hazardous again.

A 'mere' 55v is enough to kill under certain conditions - and by centre
grounding you've doubled the chance of an electric shock at one stroke.

> It's still true that two people shaving from a double outlet
> connected to such a transformer could, in the right (wrong?)
> circumstances still experience a 110v shock (i.e. no worse than
> before) but the more likely fault when only a single person is shaving
> will reduce the shock voltage wrt earth.

> The only way for someone to recieve a full 110v live to live shock
> would be for the shaver to 'fall apart in their hand' exposing them to
> two close spaced points of contact in said appendage with most of the
> current confined to the local area. Any residual current across the
> chest because they had been using their other hand to keep a tight
> grip on a handy earthed 'grab rail' would be considerably reduced over
> what they would experience with a simple 55vac live contact and no
> worse (other than as a brief transient event when 'letting go').

> I don't know what the VA requirements are for a typical shaver but
> I'd imagine a single 50VA isolating transformer with centre tapped
> 110v secondary could power 2 or 3 shaver sockets wired in parallel
> (once you're using the 'safe option' of a 55-0-55 vac transformer - if
> it's good enough to allow the use of 110v power tools on an exposed to
> the elements building site, it's equally as good for 'wet room' use),
> there's no point in trying to galvanically isolate the sockets by
> providing a seperate transformer for each.

Most builders don't work naked. Except in some films, of course. ;-)

> If you want to make the system even safer by guarding against such
> unintended live to live contacts between the sockets, you could go to
> the expense of individual RCD breakers in each live feed (seperate
> transformers won't make this any simpler) which, on the face of it
> would require 6 such breakers for three sockets (there may interlocked
> 3 socket RCD/ELCB modules available, specifically for this usage case
> but I doubt it).

One RCD protecting the circuit would do. Unless there is a life support
device run from it too. ;-)

> Let's face it, it's only "Darwin Award Seekers" who are at risk of
> the 'worse case 110v shock hazard scenario where the idiot in question
> fails to notice that the shaver casing is on the point of 'exploding
> in his hand' due to broken/damaged casing retention clips/missing
> screws (and, at a mere 110v, the 'candidate' is unlikely to suffer
> electrocution even then).

You either provide for idiots or you don't. The snag is an isolated shaver
socket was designed for just that. Not the multitude of tasks you may need
electricity for in a modern bathroom.

--
*I'm not a paranoid, deranged millionaire. Dammit, I'm a billionaire.

[meow...@care2.com]

On Tuesday, March 4, 2014 11:26:45 AM UTC, Johny B Good wrote:
> On Tue, 04 Mar 2014 10:14:52 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"

> <> wrote:
> >In article <456ffd11-bc2a-4207...@googlegroups.com>,
> > <meow...@care2.com> wrote:

> >> > Do the regs requiring a galvanic isolated supply in a bathroom still apply
> >> > where RCD house protection exists? At least some regs have been changed
> >> > with this.

> >> When an iso transformer is fed from rcd, its secondary output has no rcd
> >> protection. Connecting 3 items to one ouput does therefore increase the
> >> shock risk some.

> >Which was why I asked if transformer isolated shaver sockets are still
> >required on a new build with RCD protection.

snip

> I know of no electric toothbrushes that use a direct galvanic
> connection to the mains. They're either battery powered using
> disposable primary cells (AA) or else chargable from an inductive
> charging stand so you can discount the 110v toothbrush shock hazard.

I dont see how the chargers would be immune to causing shock.

> This leaves (as it says on the tin) just the question of mains
> powered shavers. In this case, as per the guitar amplifiers, there
> remains the unlikely possibility of two people both using electric
> shavers from a twin outlet shaver socket recieving an electric shock
> via body contact _and_ both shavers being faulty as well.
> The voltage hazard in this case being 110v, far less likely to prove
> fatal (especially in this case of a "Buddy System" where it's more
> than likely that at least one of the victims will shrug off the
> effects quickly enough to assist the other).

its normally 240v, though I guess for electronic shavers you could preset the socket to deliver 110 only

> If I was fitting such a shaver socket, I'd choose the much safer
> option of a transformer that uses a centre tapped secondary winding
> with the centre tap connected to earth. This limits the max live to
> earth voltage to a mere 55vac rms, much less hazardous again.

then any single fault gives a shock. You'd be better off adding an RCD on the output side

> It's still true that two people shaving from a double outlet
> connected to such a transformer could, in the right (wrong?)
> circumstances still experience a 110v shock (i.e. no worse than
> before) but the more likely fault when only a single person is shaving
> will reduce the shock voltage wrt earth.
> The only way for someone to recieve a full 110v live to live shock
> would be for the shaver to 'fall apart in their hand' exposing them to
> two close spaced points of contact in said appendage with most of the
> current confined to the local area. Any residual current across the
> chest because they had been using their other hand to keep a tight
> grip on a handy earthed 'grab rail' would be considerably reduced over
> what they would experience with a simple 55vac live contact and no
> worse (other than as a brief transient event when 'letting go').

a lot more likely is an appliance getting wet or a mains lead falling out into the water, and a hand in/on the water/sink/tap

> I don't know what the VA requirements are for a typical shaver but
> I'd imagine a single 50VA isolating transformer with centre tapped
> 110v secondary could power 2 or 3 shaver sockets wired in parallel

single shaver transformers are usually 20VA

> (once you're using the 'safe option' of a 55-0-55 vac transformer - if
> it's good enough to allow the use of 110v power tools on an exposed to
> the elements building site, it's equally as good for 'wet room' use),

builders dont stand naked on wet floors or in the bath handling mains leads that drop out. Least not afaik :)

> there's no point in trying to galvanically isolate the sockets by
> providing a seperate transformer for each.
> If you want to make the system even safer by guarding against such
> unintended live to live contacts between the sockets, you could go to
> the expense of individual RCD breakers in each live feed (seperate
> transformers won't make this any simpler) which, on the face of it
> would require 6 such breakers for three sockets (there may interlocked
> 3 socket RCD/ELCB modules available, specifically for this usage case
> but I doubt it).

thats just confused

> Let's face it, it's only "Darwin Award Seekers" who are at risk of
> the 'worse case 110v shock hazard scenario where the idiot in question
> fails to notice that the shaver casing is on the point of 'exploding
> in his hand' due to broken/damaged casing retention clips/missing
> screws (and, at a mere 110v, the 'candidate' is unlikely to suffer
> electrocution even then).

I dont think you need be an award seeker to have a mains lead fall out.


NT

[GB]

On 04/03/2014 20:06, meow...@care2.com wrote:

> I dont think you need be an award seeker to have a mains lead fall out.

There is also an assumption being made further back in this thread that
you cannot get a shock from an electric toothbrush charger – one of the
inductive type. Obviously, it is quite unlikely, but the case could
become cracked or a lead could break.....

[Adam Funk]

On 2014-03-03, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

> In article <531463ef$0$1425$5b6a...@news.zen.co.uk>,
> GB <NOTso...@microsoft.com> wrote:
>> > EU Europe 240v mains socket splitter 1x Schuko plug to 2x Europlug
>> > sockets
>> >
>> > It might work!
>> >
>
>> I take it that that is not approved for UK bathrooms?
>
> Do the regs requiring a galvanic isolated supply in a bathroom still apply
> where RCD house protection exists? At least some regs have been changed
> with this.

By "at least some regs" do you mean foreign ones?

[Adam Funk]

On 2014-03-02, fred wrote:

><a24...@ducksburg.com> writes
>>On 2014-03-02, ARW wrote:

>>> Kitchens tend not to have naked wet people in them.
>>
>>Coincidentally, I used to know a naturist electrician.
>
> Let me guess, the customers were completely unphased :-?

Brilliant!

In fact, it wasn't until he & his wife told us they were naturists (in
a non-professional capacity) that we realized why it took them a long
time to answer the door & they kept their house really warm.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <bg2iuax...@news.ducksburg.com>,

Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
> > Do the regs requiring a galvanic isolated supply in a bathroom still
> > apply where RCD house protection exists? At least some regs have been
> > changed with this.

> By "at least some regs" do you mean foreign ones?

No - UK ones. 'Zones' in bathrooms. Bonding, etc. I think. Not that I've
ever read them - just hear about them here.

--
*Thank you. We're all refreshed and challenged by your unique point of view

[Adam Funk]

On 2014-03-04, Johny B Good wrote:

> I know of no electric toothbrushes that use a direct galvanic
> connection to the mains. They're either battery powered using
> disposable primary cells (AA) or else chargable from an inductive
> charging stand so you can discount the 110v toothbrush shock hazard.

I bought an electric toothbrush recently & noticed the contactless
charger --- is that a regulatory requirement? (I also wonder if the
inductive charging is why it takes so long to charge up fully.)

[Adam Funk]

On 2014-03-05, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

> In article <bg2iuax...@news.ducksburg.com>,
> Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
>> > Do the regs requiring a galvanic isolated supply in a bathroom still
>> > apply where RCD house protection exists? At least some regs have been
>> > changed with this.
>
>> By "at least some regs" do you mean foreign ones?
>
> No - UK ones. 'Zones' in bathrooms. Bonding, etc. I think. Not that I've
> ever read them - just hear about them here.

OK, I was just wondering because AFAICT the rule banning
non-shaver-sockets is still in force in the zones, even with the
advent of RCDs.

Does anyone know if any other countries require special socket formats
(as opposed to RCD protection) in bathrooms?

[Adam Funk]

On 2014-03-04, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

> In article <456ffd11-bc2a-4207...@googlegroups.com>,
> <meow...@care2.com> wrote:

>> It might be easier to plug tghe toothbrushes into a simple adaptor
>> outside the bathroom.
>
> I have a charging 'station' in the tank cupboard in my bathroom.

Is it still the case (as an electrician told me some years ago) that
you can get around the rules on sockets in bathrooms by putting a
normal socket in the airing cupboard?

[charles]

In article <4kcjuax...@news.ducksburg.com>,

my airing cupboard is nowhere near the bathroom.

[ARW]

"Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:53e35ac...@davenoise.co.uk...

> In article <bg2iuax...@news.ducksburg.com>,
> Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
>> > Do the regs requiring a galvanic isolated supply in a bathroom still
>> > apply where RCD house protection exists? At least some regs have been
>> > changed with this.
>
>> By "at least some regs" do you mean foreign ones?
>
> No - UK ones. 'Zones' in bathrooms. Bonding, etc. I think. Not that I've
> ever read them - just hear about them here.

These zones:-)?

http://www.willetttechnicalservices.co.uk/bathroomzones.pdf


--
Adam

[ARW]

"Adam Funk" <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote in message
news:4kcjuax...@news.ducksburg.com...

Under the 16th edition there was a mention that sockets should not be placed
where portable appliances could be plugged in and used in the bathroom -
that included airing cupboards and just outside the bathroom door.



--
Adam

[Roger Mills]

On 09/03/2014 08:57, ARW wrote:

>
> Under the 16th edition there was a mention that sockets should not be
> placed where portable appliances could be plugged in and used in the
> bathroom - that included airing cupboards and just outside the bathroom
> door.
>

Great! If you take extension leads into account, you shouldn't have a
socket *anywhere*!

[ARW]

"Roger Mills" <watt....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:bo319c...@mid.individual.net...

> On 09/03/2014 08:57, ARW wrote:
>
>>
>> Under the 16th edition there was a mention that sockets should not be
>> placed where portable appliances could be plugged in and used in the
>> bathroom - that included airing cupboards and just outside the bathroom
>> door.
>>
>
> Great! If you take extension leads into account, you shouldn't have a
> socket *anywhere*!

There is more to it than just extension leads.

Take a rented house where the landlord does not give a toss and the tenants
are living below the poverty line. Will the tenants try to use an electric
heater (or indeed a hair dryer) to warm the bathroom when the boiler is
broken and it is minus 12 outside.

I have spent a lot of time working in slum housing and these are often the
most dangerous houses where electics are concerned.

--
Adam

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <lfhkej$lk5$1...@dont-email.me>,

ARW <adamwa...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> > Great! If you take extension leads into account, you shouldn't have a
> > socket *anywhere*!


> There is more to it than just extension leads.

> Take a rented house where the landlord does not give a toss and the
> tenants are living below the poverty line. Will the tenants try to use
> an electric heater (or indeed a hair dryer) to warm the bathroom when
> the boiler is broken and it is minus 12 outside.

Well yes - but how does the proximity of a socket influence this, as
they'd simply use an extension if needed. Adding to the risks. ;-)

--
*Time is fun when you're having flies... Kermit

[Adam Funk]

On 2014-03-09, ARW wrote:

> "Adam Funk" <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote in message
> news:4kcjuax...@news.ducksburg.com...

>> Is it still the case (as an electrician told me some years ago) that
>> you can get around the rules on sockets in bathrooms by putting a
>> normal socket in the airing cupboard?
>
>
> Under the 16th edition there was a mention that sockets should not be placed
> where portable appliances could be plugged in and used in the bathroom -
> that included airing cupboards and just outside the bathroom door.

The nearest socket to my bathroom is a few metres from the door.
Fortunately the vacuum cleaner has a long lead. Wait, the regs don't
want to let me vacuum the floor?

[ARW]

"Adam Funk" <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote in message

news:m1k3vax...@news.ducksburg.com...

I believe that it was more to do with appliances such as electric heater,
hair dryiers radios etc. Basically stuff that might be but should not be
used whilst you are in the bath:-)

--
Adam

[meow...@care2.com]

On Tuesday, March 11, 2014 6:16:45 PM UTC, adamwa...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote:
> "Adam Funk" <ducksburg.com> wrote in message

> news:m1k3vax...@news.ducksburg.com...
> > On 2014-03-09, ARW wrote:

> >> "Adam Funk" <ducksburg.com> wrote in message

> >> news:4kcjuax...@news.ducksburg.com...

> >>> Is it still the case (as an electrician told me some years ago) that
> >>> you can get around the rules on sockets in bathrooms by putting a
> >>> normal socket in the airing cupboard?
> >>
> >>
> >> Under the 16th edition there was a mention that sockets should not be
> >> placed
> >> where portable appliances could be plugged in and used in the bathroom -
> >> that included airing cupboards and just outside the bathroom door.
> >
> > The nearest socket to my bathroom is a few metres from the door.
> > Fortunately the vacuum cleaner has a long lead. Wait, the regs don't
> > want to let me vacuum the floor?
> I believe that it was more to do with appliances such as electric heater,
> hair dryiers radios etc. Basically stuff that might be but should not be
> used whilst you are in the bath:-)

So theyre ok with people vacuuming while in the bath? :)


NT

[ARW]

<meow...@care2.com> wrote in message
news:003f9032-b0d6-4339...@googlegroups.com...

Reminds me of the when the gf's lad wanted to help me clean up after fitting
an extractor fan(he was about 6 years old at the time). I had a Henry and I
left him in the bathroom vacuuming up brick dust whilst went for a cig.

When I went back inside the water in the toilet bowl was missing and the
Henry was making a funny noise.

--
Adam

[Adam Funk]

On 2014-03-09, ARW wrote:

> There is more to it than just extension leads.
>
> Take a rented house where the landlord does not give a toss and the tenants
> are living below the poverty line. Will the tenants try to use an electric
> heater (or indeed a hair dryer) to warm the bathroom when the boiler is
> broken and it is minus 12 outside.
>
> I have spent a lot of time working in slum housing and these are often the
> most dangerous houses where electics are concerned.

You mean most dangerous *before* you worked on them, right? ;-)

[Adam Funk]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gf74JmBiPto

[SteveW]

On 09/03/2014 08:57, ARW wrote:

As our landing is at no point more than 3'6" from our bathroom door
that'd mean no socket there for plugging in the vac for doing the stairs.

SteveW

[polygonum]

On 11/03/2014 20:25, SteveW wrote:
> As our landing is at no point more than 3'6" from our bathroom door
> that'd mean no socket there for plugging in the vac for doing the stairs.
>
> SteveW

For safety, the vacuum cleaner [1] should be at the bottom of the
stairs, and you have a long hose to do the steps. Pulling a cleaner down
the stairs can be very damaging to walls and persons. And vacuum cleaners.

[1] Assuming not a tiny handheld device.

--
Rod

[meow...@care2.com]

On Tuesday, March 11, 2014 7:15:51 PM UTC, adamwa...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote:
> <meow...@care2.com> wrote in message
> news:003f9032-b0d6-4339...@googlegroups.com...

> >> > The nearest socket to my bathroom is a few metres from the door.
> >> > Fortunately the vacuum cleaner has a long lead. Wait, the regs don't
> >> > want to let me vacuum the floor?
> >> I believe that it was more to do with appliances such as electric heater,
> >> hair dryiers radios etc. Basically stuff that might be but should not be
> >> used whilst you are in the bath:-)

> > So theyre ok with people vacuuming while in the bath? :)

> Reminds me of the when the gf's lad wanted to help me clean up after fitting
> an extractor fan(he was about 6 years old at the time). I had a Henry and I
> left him in the bathroom vacuuming up brick dust whilst went for a cig.
> When I went back inside the water in the toilet bowl was missing and the
> Henry was making a funny noise.

Eek. I had one lad in his 20s that decided to wash an electrical appliance in the sink :/ I cant help thinking schools have lost the plot these days.


NT

[charles]

In article <905cf8c3-44c4-430e...@googlegroups.com>,

At BBC tv Centre, in the 1960s, all Tektronics 'scopes that went in for
maintainence got washed. the secret was in the drying - as many imitators
found to their cost.

[Adam Funk]

Isn't a lot of the problem there *enforcement* of the building
regulations rather than just the content of them? (I mean that
slumlords are less likely than other people to care about doing things
right.)

[ARW]

"Adam Funk" <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote in message

news:ju36vax...@news.ducksburg.com...

I have in the past disconnected dangerous circuits, given the landlord a
reason why I have done that (backed up in writing) and left their property
in a safe state.

A few bad landlord will spoil it for the good ones and there will soon be
the same laws with electrics as there are with gas - and I am not one that
believes that a rented house needs an EICR every 12 months.

--
Adam

[Adam Funk]

On 2014-03-13, ARW wrote:

> "Adam Funk" <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote in message
> news:ju36vax...@news.ducksburg.com...
>> On 2014-03-09, ARW wrote:

>>> I have spent a lot of time working in slum housing and these are often
>>> the
>>> most dangerous houses where electics are concerned.
>>
>> Isn't a lot of the problem there *enforcement* of the building
>> regulations rather than just the content of them? (I mean that
>> slumlords are less likely than other people to care about doing things
>> right.)
>
>
> I have in the past disconnected dangerous circuits, given the landlord a
> reason why I have done that (backed up in writing) and left their property
> in a safe state.

You're a good man, doing the right thing & possibly losing repeat
business.

> A few bad landlord will spoil it for the good ones and there will soon be
> the same laws with electrics as there are with gas - and I am not one that
> believes that a rented house needs an EICR every 12 months.

I agree.

[SteveW]

Vac sits at bottom when doing the bottom half and on the half-landing
when doing the top half and the top landing and then is moved onto the
top landing to do the bathroom and bedrooms.

SteveW

[SteveW]

As long as it's an aqua-vac ;)

SteveW

[Adam Funk]

I normally put the vacuum cleaner on the ground floor to vacuum up the
stairs to the 1st floor, but I put it on the 1st floor landing to
vacuum up the stairs to the 2nd. And I use a socket that is (just)
close enough to let me vacuum the bathroom floor too.

But I don't vacuum the bath itself.

[polygonum]

As we only have a "standard" house with an single upper floor, the
thought of second upper floor never fleeted through my mind. But
perfectly reasonable! :-)

--
Rod

[ARW]

<meow...@care2.com> wrote in message
news:905cf8c3-44c4-430e...@googlegroups.com...

It's NOT the schools. It's the PARENTS.



--
Adam

[Adam Funk]

In my neighbourhood, but not everywhere of course, early C.20 terraced
houses with an original 2nd-floor room are fairly common. The top
room has diagonal slopes between the front & back walls & the
horizontal ceiling, & the stairs up to it were fairly obviously part
of the original design of the house.

[Adam Funk]

On 2014-03-15, ARW wrote:

> It's NOT the schools. It's the PARENTS.

+1

Those who advocate performance-related pay for teachers should carry
the idea back a level.

Teachers are (for the most part --- there are a few exceptions)
trained & qualified professionals trying to do the right thing.
Parents vary widely in quality, down to those who are unable to use
contraceptives correctly.

[meow...@care2.com]

On Saturday, March 15, 2014 2:49:22 PM UTC, adamwa...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote:
> <meow...@care2.com> wrote in message
> news:905cf8c3-44c4-430e...@googlegroups.com...
> > On Tuesday, March 11, 2014 7:15:51 PM UTC, adamwa...@blueyonder.co.uk
> > wrote:
> >> <meow...@care2.com> wrote in message
> >> news:003f9032-b0d6-4339...@googlegroups.com...

> >> > So theyre ok with people vacuuming while in the bath? :)

> >> Reminds me of the when the gf's lad wanted to help me clean up after
> >> fitting
> >> an extractor fan(he was about 6 years old at the time). I had a Henry and
> >> I
> >> left him in the bathroom vacuuming up brick dust whilst went for a cig.
> >> When I went back inside the water in the toilet bowl was missing and the
> >> Henry was making a funny noise.

> > Eek. I had one lad in his 20s that decided to wash an electrical appliance
> > in the sink :/ I cant help thinking schools have lost the plot these days.

> It's NOT the schools. It's the PARENTS.

Obviously its both. Since every generation of parents has a significant percentage of incompetents, any school with a clue would teach these things.


NT

[pmec...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, 2 March 2014 13:02:39 UTC, Tricky Dicky wrote:
> Brian I think the difference is that in a kitchen you may have your hands wet whilst handling electrical equipment, whereas in a bathroom you could be standing stark bollock naked wet all over in a pool of water in a cast iron bath like a lightening conductor providing a perfect route to earth.
>
> Back to OP, most of the shaver sockets provide a 230v and 115v socket and most shavers and toothbrushes will happily operate on either so you can plug two devices in.
>
> Richard

YOU CANNOT operate two devices at the same time, because there is a mechanism within the dual socket that prevents you from doing that by closing the unused port when you plug the first device in. Someone should produce a simple double socket that simply plugs into the shaver point and supplies power to two points simultaneously so that people like me can have their electric toothbrush, waterpik and/or shaver charging at the same time.

[GB]

This makes me wonder whether shaver sockets with an isolation
transformer are needed at all? They pre-date ELCBs and RCDs.

I have installed two shaver sockets in our bathroom, and really we need
a third. We get by because DW and I share an electric toothbrush (just
changing the brush head, which we only started doing because the dental
hygienist insisted).

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <fb822245-3580-4bf8...@googlegroups.com>,

<pmec...@gmail.com> wrote:
> YOU CANNOT operate two devices at the same time, because there is a
> mechanism within the dual socket that prevents you from doing that by
> closing the unused port when you plug the first device in. Someone
> should produce a simple double socket that simply plugs into the shaver
> point and supplies power to two points simultaneously so that people
> like me can have their electric toothbrush, waterpik and/or shaver
> charging at the same time.

Which mostly negates the reason for using an isolating transformer. To get
the same safety, you need one isolating transformer per outlet.

--
*A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kickboxing.

[Andy Burns]

Dave Plowman wrote:

> To get the same safety, you need one isolating transformer per
> outlet.

What's the logic of that? Obviously without a transformer you only need
to touch live terminal [and have a path to earth] to get a shock, with a
single outlet on a transformer, touching one terminal won't give you a
shock, only touching both terminals. So if there are two outlets, how
are you more likely to touch both sides of the transformer output?

[polygonum]

On 03/07/2016 18:36, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> Which mostly negates the reason for using an isolating transformer. To get
> the same safety, you need one isolating transformer per outlet.

Doesn't seem that difficult to imagine a lump that contains two
isolating transformers, each feeding one socket, in one box. Or am I
missing the significant issue?

--
Rod

[Tim Watts]

Double fault probably - Phase 1 goes to case in one appliance, Phase 2
goes to case in the other appliance. You are holding one appliance in
each hand.

Very unlikely I know - but it's the main logic that I can see.

[Tim Watts]

It would not even need 2 transformers - just one with dual isolated
secondaries. Or triple isolated secondaries.

I agree - it's about time such a beast came about as lots of people now
have a couple of things on charge much of the time.

[GB]

Actually, one output that feeds different outlets at different times.
Your toothbrush won't care if it's only charged 12 hours a day.

[GB]

Bugger, why did I post that? That's a really, really good idea, that
would have been worth patenting if I hadn't published it here. :)

You could easily design circuitry that recognised when the user was
operating the electric mouthwash and directed the output to that socket.

Then all that would be required is a single isolating transformer and a
tiny circuit board.

[Brian Gaff]

and indeed a time machine as well, most probably.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please!
<pmec...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:fb822245-3580-4bf8...@googlegroups.com...

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <dtt4bv...@mid.individual.net>,

You don't need an isolating transformer if you're not in any danger of
touching one of the 'terminals'. It is used to make that fault less
dangerous. If you have two appliances both with faults on the same iso
tranny not too difficult to see how you could touch both terminals.

--
*Elephants are the only mammals that can't jump *

[GB]

On 04/07/2016 10:31, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> In article <dtt4bv...@mid.individual.net>,
> Andy Burns <use...@andyburns.uk> wrote:
>> Dave Plowman wrote:
>
>>> To get the same safety, you need one isolating transformer per
>>> outlet.
>
>> What's the logic of that? Obviously without a transformer you only need
>> to touch live terminal [and have a path to earth] to get a shock, with a
>> single outlet on a transformer, touching one terminal won't give you a
>> shock, only touching both terminals. So if there are two outlets, how
>> are you more likely to touch both sides of the transformer output?
>
> You don't need an isolating transformer if you're not in any danger of
> touching one of the 'terminals'. It is used to make that fault less
> dangerous. If you have two appliances both with faults on the same iso
> tranny not too difficult to see how you could touch both terminals.
>

Surely, the whole thing could be replaced with a suitably sensitive RCD?

[Tim Watts]

The RCD can be sensitive to 1mA - but it will not reduce the belt you
get whilst it breaks the circuit (10-40mS in practice).

This is normally OK with dry contact, but if you are soaking wet, you're
going to get a much heftier current through you for those 10-40mS which
may prove fatal in a larger number of cases.

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 04/07/16 10:42, GB wrote:

>

> Surely, the whole thing could be replaced with a suitably sensitive RCD?
>
>

I thought we had decided not to talk about the European Union!



--
“it should be clear by now to everyone that activist environmentalism
(or environmental activism) is becoming a general ideology about humans,
about their freedom, about the relationship between the individual and
the state, and about the manipulation of people under the guise of a
'noble' idea. It is not an honest pursuit of 'sustainable development,'
a matter of elementary environmental protection, or a search for
rational mechanisms designed to achieve a healthy environment. Yet
things do occur that make you shake your head and remind yourself that
you live neither in Joseph Stalin’s Communist era, nor in the Orwellian
utopia of 1984.”

Vaclav Klaus

[Adam Funk]

Is this the reason that isolating transformers (which are relatively
old technology) are still required for bathroom shaver sockets, even
if they are RCD-protected? (I'd been meaning to ask for a while.)

[The Natural Philosopher]

yes.



--
“But what a weak barrier is truth when it stands in the way of an
hypothesis!”

Mary Wollstonecraft

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <nldb21$dcd$1...@dont-email.me>,

Of course. But iso trannys have been around since long before RCDs became
practical.

--
*Toilet stolen from police station. Cops have nothing to go on.

[ARW]

"GB" <NOTso...@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:nlbgi1$67f$1...@dont-email.me...

Then try shaving at different times:-)
--
Adam

[BrunoJ]

Just in case anyone else is looking for one of these 7 years later. I've only found one source, but they are not cheap. I'm looking for something less expensive. The one I found is at https://www.calypsobathrooms.co.uk/furnishings/accessories/shaver-toothbrush-socket

--
For full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/uk-diy/double-triple-outlet-shaver-sockets-959624-.htm

[Owain Lastname]

On Friday, 15 October 2021 at 14:15:06 UTC+1, BrunoJ wrote:
> Just in case anyone else is looking for one of these 7 years later. I've only found one source, but they are not cheap. I'm looking for something less expensive. The one I found is at https://www.calypsobathrooms.co.uk/furnishings/accessories/shaver-toothbrush-socket

But suitable for bathrooms? I don't think so.

Owain

[Scott]

On Fri, 15 Oct 2021 13:15:02 +0000, BrunoJ
<aef02cb240865106...@example.com> wrote:

>Just in case anyone else is looking for one of these 7 years later. I've only found one source, but they are not cheap. I'm looking for something less expensive. The one I found is at https://www.calypsobathrooms.co.uk/furnishings/accessories/shaver-toothbrush-socket

How do you mount *inside* a wall?

It looks more what I would expect in the sleeper cabin of a train.

[Theo]

Indeed, probably not. But it looks large enough that you could mount a
(pair of) isolation transformers inside and then it would be.

Best match I could find is:
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/TUV-Mark-Comibox-Schuko-Socket-with_1600073950639.html

if you put a pair of shaver socket inserts in it.

I note the printing on the £180 socket looks like it was done on the world's
cheapest silkscreen. Probably more like £1.80.

Theo

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <cPf*KX...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>,

Theo <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Owain Lastname <spuorg...@gowanhill.com> wrote:
> > On Friday, 15 October 2021 at 14:15:06 UTC+1, BrunoJ wrote:
> > > Just in case anyone else is looking for one of these 7 years later. I've only found one source, but they are not cheap. I'm looking for something less expensive. The one I found is at https://www.calypsobathrooms.co.uk/furnishings/accessories/shaver-toothbrush-socket
> >
> > But suitable for bathrooms? I don't think so.

> Indeed, probably not. But it looks large enough that you could mount a
> (pair of) isolation transformers inside and then it would be.

Surely at that price it is more than a pair of sockets in a box? And it
does appear to be a UK company?

But so hideous I doubt anyone would want it.

> Best match I could find is:
> https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/TUV-Mark-Comibox-Schuko-Socket-with_1600073950639.html

> if you put a pair of shaver socket inserts in it.

> I note the printing on the £180 socket looks like it was done on the world's
> cheapest silkscreen. Probably more like £1.80.

> Theo

--
*CAN AN ATHEIST GET INSURANCE AGAINST ACTS OF GOD?

[newshound]

On 15/10/2021 14:15, BrunoJ wrote:
> Just in case anyone else is looking for one of these 7 years later.
> I've only found one source, but they are not cheap.  I'm looking for
> something less expensive.  The one I found is at
> https://www.calypsobathrooms.co.uk/furnishings/accessories/shaver-toothbrush-socket
>
>

Well I have a standard isolating transformer that fits into a double box
with two sockets in the front plate. No idea where I got it.

There are plenty with 240v and 110v outlets, IIRC some toothbrushes will
charge off either.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <qKudnWibrYkCbvf8...@brightview.co.uk>,

A single isolating transformer feeding two outlets defeats the purpose of
an isolating transformer.

--
*Constipated People Don't Give A Crap*

[Scott]

On Sun, 17 Oct 2021 11:42:17 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
<da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

>In article <qKudnWibrYkCbvf8...@brightview.co.uk>,
> newshound <news...@stevejqr.plus.com> wrote:
>> On 15/10/2021 14:15, BrunoJ wrote:
>> > Just in case anyone else is looking for one of these 7 years later.
>> > I've only found one source, but they are not cheap. I'm looking for
>> > something less expensive. The one I found is at
>> > https://www.calypsobathrooms.co.uk/furnishings/accessories/shaver-toothbrush-socket
>> >
>> >
>> Well I have a standard isolating transformer that fits into a double box
>> with two sockets in the front plate. No idea where I got it.
>
>> There are plenty with 240v and 110v outlets, IIRC some toothbrushes will
>> charge off either.
>
>A single isolating transformer feeding two outlets defeats the purpose of
>an isolating transformer.

Why? I thought it severely limited the current passing through the
live wire.