So much for part p

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John Rumm

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Dec 18, 2008, 4:33:53 PM12/18/08
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I was having a chat with one of our local BCOs the other day, and we
were talking about part P. Out of curiosity I asked him how often they
received a building notice for a part P only job - i.e. just one doing
electrics rather than some other job that also included electrics. He
thought for a moment, and admitted that he could not actually remember any!

While I suppose that concurred with expectations, I was still a bit
surprised that that the figure really was zero.

So to repeat the question here; has anyone, (or do you know anyone) who
*has* submitted a BN for part P work when not required by other aspects
of the building regs?


--
Cheers,

John.

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Roger Mills

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Dec 18, 2008, 4:54:22 PM12/18/08
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In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
John Rumm <see.my.s...@nowhere.null> wrote:

> I was having a chat with one of our local BCOs the other day, and we
> were talking about part P. Out of curiosity I asked him how often they
> received a building notice for a part P only job - i.e. just one doing
> electrics rather than some other job that also included electrics. He
> thought for a moment, and admitted that he could not actually
> remember any!
> While I suppose that concurred with expectations, I was still a bit
> surprised that that the figure really was zero.
>
> So to repeat the question here; has anyone, (or do you know anyone)
> who *has* submitted a BN for part P work when not required by other
> aspects of the building regs?
>

No, but see see my post in the thread "How to get Part P for electrics".
With my local authority at any rate if you're DIY-ing the electrics the BN
fee is potentially *cheaper* if you combine it with something else.
--
Cheers,
Roger
______
Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
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Tim S

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Dec 18, 2008, 5:22:49 PM12/18/08
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John Rumm coughed up some electrons that declared:

> I was having a chat with one of our local BCOs the other day, and we
> were talking about part P. Out of curiosity I asked him how often they
> received a building notice for a part P only job - i.e. just one doing
> electrics rather than some other job that also included electrics. He
> thought for a moment, and admitted that he could not actually remember
> any!
>
> While I suppose that concurred with expectations, I was still a bit
> surprised that that the figure really was zero.
>
> So to repeat the question here; has anyone, (or do you know anyone) who
> *has* submitted a BN for part P work when not required by other aspects
> of the building regs?
>

Not answering your question exactly as put John, I did. But primarily
because I had a BNA open for a ton of other stuff. And it was a full
rewire. And the LABC in question don't appear to be being very[1] awkward
about it.

[1] Well, they wanted evidence of qualifications or a PIR, so I did a 4 day
course and got a VRQ. Technically I gave ground, but they were being
generally helpful in other areas (ie don't give a toss about Part L and
other such nonsense). I think they just want a bit of botty insulation in
case the shite hits the fan, otherwise I don't think they really give a
damn about Part P either. I like them.

I don't envisage darkening their doors again, ever, after this.

Cheers

Tim

geraldthehamster

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Dec 18, 2008, 5:54:57 PM12/18/08
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On 18 Dec, 21:33, John Rumm <see.my.signat...@nowhere.null> wrote:

> So to repeat the question here; has anyone, (or do you know anyone) who
> *has* submitted a BN for part P work when not required by other aspects
> of the building regs?

I think my answer would be the same as most people's - f*ck that ;-)

Regards
Richard

Peter Andrews

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Dec 18, 2008, 6:52:18 PM12/18/08
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"John Rumm" <see.my.s...@nowhere.null> wrote in message
news:jKOdnUizeZi_X9fU...@posted.plusnet...

Correct me if I'm wrong, and I accept that I may be, but as I understand it
I 'could' legally rewire the entire local village hall (non domestic) and be
paid, but can't add a spur to my own kitchen ring because that comes under
Part P!

Peter


george (dicegeorge)

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Dec 18, 2008, 7:01:06 PM12/18/08
to

Tim S wrote:
xxxxxxxxx


> [1] Well, they wanted evidence of qualifications or a PIR, so I did a 4 day
> course and got a VRQ. Technically I gave ground,

xxxxxxxxxx

what 4 day course, what qualification?

I can find a 12 week course but ahvent the time for that...

[g]

Tim S

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Dec 18, 2008, 8:15:48 PM12/18/08
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george (dicegeorge) coughed up some electrons that declared:

>
>
> Tim S wrote:
> xxxxxxxxx
>> [1] Well, they wanted evidence of qualifications or a PIR, so I did a 4
>> [day
>> course and got a VRQ. Technically I gave ground,
>
> xxxxxxxxxx
>
> what 4 day course,

This one:

http://www.buildertrainingcentre.co.uk/courses/part.htm
(Waddon, South London)

> what qualification?

VRQ - EAL Level 2.

HTH
Tim

John Rumm

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Dec 19, 2008, 3:56:08 AM12/19/08
to
Peter Andrews wrote:

> Correct me if I'm wrong, and I accept that I may be, but as I understand it
> I 'could' legally rewire the entire local village hall (non domestic) and be
> paid, but can't add a spur to my own kitchen ring because that comes under
> Part P!

Yup, that's about right IIUC.

(obviously you could do your kitchen legally under a building notice,
but that quite likely puts the cost of spur up by a couple of hundred
quid... can't think why the idea is so unpopular ;-) )

dennis@home

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Dec 19, 2008, 4:17:32 AM12/19/08
to

"Peter Andrews" <p.an...@blueblueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:TmB2l.27905$Iz4....@newsfe19.ams2...


> Correct me if I'm wrong, and I accept that I may be, but as I understand
> it I 'could' legally rewire the entire local village hall (non domestic)
> and be paid, but can't add a spur to my own kitchen ring because that
> comes under Part P!

You can rewire an entire factory where thousands work if you want.

Owain

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Dec 19, 2008, 6:17:06 AM12/19/08
to
Peter Andrews wrote:
> Correct me if I'm wrong, and I accept that I may be, but as I understand it
> I 'could' legally rewire the entire local village hall (non domestic) and be
> paid, but can't add a spur to my own kitchen ring because that comes under
> Part P!

Correct. The village hall would come under the Electricity At Work
Regulations, of course, so you would actually need to be competent to do
that work.

Owain

Mike Harrison

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Dec 19, 2008, 6:34:58 AM12/19/08
to

But the definition of 'competent' is the more traditional one, as opposed to the Prat P definition
which is essentially 'having paid to be a member of the cartel'

ARWadsworth

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Dec 20, 2008, 8:36:55 AM12/20/08
to

"John Rumm" <see.my.s...@nowhere.null> wrote in message
news:jKOdnUizeZi_X9fU...@posted.plusnet...
> I was having a chat with one of our local BCOs the other day, and we
> were talking about part P. Out of curiosity I asked him how often they
> received a building notice for a part P only job - i.e. just one doing
> electrics rather than some other job that also included electrics. He
> thought for a moment, and admitted that he could not actually remember
any!
>
> While I suppose that concurred with expectations, I was still a bit
> surprised that that the figure really was zero.
>
> So to repeat the question here; has anyone, (or do you know anyone) who
> *has* submitted a BN for part P work when not required by other aspects
> of the building regs?
>

No.

Adam


TheOldFellow

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Dec 20, 2008, 12:49:09 PM12/20/08
to


I did. They sent round TWO wallies at first fit who didn't know one end
of a fuse from the other. 'Nice tidy wiring' they exclaimed. I asked
if I had interpreted the 50mm rule correctly in the stud wall (I had,
it was a test question), and they admitted that neither was qualified to
inspect electrics, and didn't know what the 50mm rule was. I have not
requested the final inspection, and every six months or so I get a
letter requesting my 'certificate'. I decline to answer as there is no
time limit in the regulations. I'll submit a bloody certificate when I
feel like it.

R.

cynic

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Dec 22, 2008, 5:11:09 AM12/22/08
to

Having been involved in a training organisation that delivered the EAL
Domestic Installer course over 8 days, I am fascinated how the theory
and practical parts, together with completion of portfolio was
completed in 4 days. Do you feel you or the other candidates came away
with sufficient knowledge to carry out domestic installation work
satisfactorily and safely including the appropriate basic testing and
certification?

Ed Sirett

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Dec 22, 2008, 12:54:00 PM12/22/08
to

I can only speak for myself.
Yes. However I was pretty conversant with the theory and was already
experienced with using the most of the test gear beforehand.
The course is really to tick the boxes for people who are experienced but
unqualified with domestic electrical work and certify them as competent.

Most experienced diyers would have little problem with the course if they
were reasonable numerate.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

Tim S

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Dec 22, 2008, 1:10:52 PM12/22/08
to
cynic coughed up some electrons that declared:

> Having been involved in a training organisation that delivered the EAL
> Domestic Installer course over 8 days, I am fascinated how the theory
> and practical parts, together with completion of portfolio was
> completed in 4 days. Do you feel you or the other candidates came away
> with sufficient knowledge to carry out domestic installation work
> satisfactorily and safely including the appropriate basic testing and
> certification?

Well, yes and no.

Many on the course were already working as electricians and knew what they
were doing - it seemed they just needed this qualification to join the
NICEIC DI programme - none of them had ant problems.

I was the odd one out doing it to keep the BCO happy, but I earnt the
respect of the others for my neat cabling and awkward questions ;->

However, if you are without any electrical nous and find CSE maths and
physics challenging you'd be a bit stuffed and it would not turn the
clueless into a competent electrician IMO. But like Ed says, if you
generally know what you're doing, such a course does help finish off the
details withing its scope.

The only thing I have against it is that a 4 day course cannot possibly
cover much of the extended theory and practise that is quite likely to come
up in domestic work, eg:

Running submains (distribution circuits)
When to start using TT earthing (eg greenhouse, maybe)
Grouping of cables
Cable types that aren't T+E
What to do when you see some random 1950s black box on the wall next to the
meter and have no idea what it's for.

But, OTOH, it does cover cable derating for temperature, the basic concepts
of predicting a load on a circuit and standard circuit arrangements.

I think the course is definately OK for kitchen/bathroom fitters and people
doing odd jobs with limited scope, but, personally, if you're going to
start up wiring entire houses with all of the odd cases that you may find,
I don't think it goes all the way and you'd really want to do a stint
assisting a more experienced electrician for a while.

I can see why pro sparks get so upset with the whole thing.

Just my 2ps worth.

Cheers

Tim


cynic

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Dec 22, 2008, 6:15:51 PM12/22/08
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On 22 Dec, 17:54, Ed Sirett <e...@makewrite.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 02:11:09 -0800, cynic wrote:
> > On 19 Dec, 01:15, Tim S <t...@dionic.net> wrote:
> >> george (dicegeorge) coughed up some electrons that declared:
>
> >> > Tim S wrote:
> >> > xxxxxxxxx
> >> >> [1] Well, they wanted evidence of qualifications or a PIR, so I did
> >> >> a 4 [day
> >> >> course and got a VRQ. Technically I gave ground,
>
> >> > xxxxxxxxxx
>
> >> > what 4 day course,
>
> >> This one:
>
> >>http://www.buildertrainingcentre.co.uk/courses/part.htm(Waddon, South

> >> London)
>
> >> > what qualification?
>
> >> VRQ - EAL Level 2.
>
> >> HTH
> >> Tim
>
> > Having been involved in a training organisation that delivered the EAL
> > Domestic Installer course over 8 days, I am fascinated how the theory
> > and practical parts, together with completion of portfolio was completed
> > in 4 days. Do you feel you or the other candidates came away with
> > sufficient knowledge to carry out domestic installation work
> > satisfactorily and safely including the appropriate basic testing and
> > certification?
>
> I can only speak for myself.
> Yes. However I was pretty conversant with the theory and was already
> experienced with using the most of the test gear beforehand.
> The course is really to tick the boxes for people who are experienced but  
> unqualified with domestic electrical work and certify them as competent.
>
> Most experienced diyers would have little problem with the course if they
> were reasonable numerate.
>
> --
> Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
> The FAQ for uk.diy is athttp://www.diyfaq.org.uk> Choosing a Boiler FAQhttp://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Hi Ed,
I can agree with the concept of ticking bixes for the already
experienced but the EAL course is sold to such as (amongst others)
military service leavers to hopefully provide them with skills for
civvy street. Some of the military trades had no trouble at all but
many of the infantry and similar had no previous knowledge on which to
build. As one man said "I've spent 20 years with the intended job of
shooting and stabbing the enemy. Working with electricity is all new".
Having said that he applied himself diligently and came through the
course with a decent assessment. He still needed a couple of years
working for someone to gain the required experience to be considered
competent in my book.

The fundamental problem to the training route for these guys is that
the services fund the training and actively encourage candidates to go
into an intensive few weeks at the training providers establishment. A
"normal" sequence being
5 days basic electrical theory (very basic - volts, amps, ohms,
electromagnets, generation, conductors, insulators, simple circuits
etc).
8 days Domestic Installer Level 2 VRQ (Based on the On Site Guide) The
course also includes a 20 question multi-choice on-line test of
Bulding regs and part P based on the Electricians Guide to the
Building Regulations
2 days level 3 PAT (1 day management of, 1 day technician PAT)
4 days 17th edition Wiring Regulations plus 1 day for revision and on-
line exam

C&G 2391 level 3 Verification, inspection and testing of electrical
installations, 4 days theory plus 1 day practical assessment - Not
advised to non experienced electricians but many opt to take the
course anyway and initially fail the assessment. A written (proper)
closed book exam is also required to obtain this qualification.

It is worth noting that the 2391 has a low pass rate nationally so
there must be a lot of electricians out there who do not have a
sufficiently in-depth knowledge of their trade to carry out a proper
inspection and test of a full electrical installation. Thats a bit
scary but the Domestic Installer course at least gives sufficient
knowledge to adequately test new domestic wiring on completion.

Andrew Gabriel

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Dec 23, 2008, 3:55:25 AM12/23/08
to
In article <494fd82c$0$505$5a6a...@news.aaisp.net.uk>,

Tim S <t...@dionic.net> writes:
>
> I can see why pro sparks get so upset with the whole thing.

When I did my 16th Edition, it was mostly the pro sparks who were
really struggling with it. They accounted for probably nearly
half the students. The alarm, heating, and telecoms installers,
and DIYers, had no trouble at all.

When it came to C&G PAT testing, this was even more the case.
Prerequesit for this is just being able to with a plug and
knowing the difference between milliohms and megohms -- it
was that last bit which the pro sparks mostly failed on.
It's particularly funny to see office workers passing this
whilst electricians fail.

In both cases, the course tutors said this is normal.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Ed Sirett

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Dec 23, 2008, 6:30:45 PM12/23/08
to

I suppose there is a case for weeding out the clueless would be
electricians before they got as far as making a futile attempt to learn.

BTW did you see the newspaper article stating that electrician was the
commonest job for a BNP member. (SWMBO decribed them as not very bright
sparks).


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.

The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk

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